Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[Malken]

Well, chances are that if you manage to play a 40 days magicker, you probably wouldn't want to make another one for a little while..

But if you have at least 2 karma, nothing stops you from playing Ruks and Vivs all the time right now, which I think is part of the problem..

The more players we get, the better they get, the more we get people with 2 karma. Unless you start including mundane 'roles' or 'classes' that require karma, this might just be a growing problem.

I would be curious to know what's the percentage of accounts with at least 2 karma, compared to say, a year or two ago..

[Intrepid]

Ok, I was mistaken now that you clarified, Malken.  Thank you.  I now disagree for a completely different set of reasons, as Armageddon is harsh enough to lose a pc in the first five hours of game.  That said, I believe that this system you propose is still unfair to the playerbase.

Thank you for clarifying though.  :twisted:

[TiberiusAlaric]

I am with Saphreal.  I think there are too many magickers running around freely.  20% of PCs being magickers ARE too much I would think, since the docs say they are very rare in population.  20% is not rare at all.  I would not count more than 5% is rare indeed.

Yeah, the admins must have a very broad perspective on what is rare to consider 20% to be rare.

So, while the PC population may get as high as 20% mages, the population of the game world is not 20% mages.

Except the PC population is all that matters since they're the people we interact with, heh. So yeah, I'm not particuarly fond of all the magickers IG, but eh, it doesn't really matter.

[Ghost]

That said, I believe that this system you propose is still unfair to the playerbase.

How so?

[jhunter]

Except the PC population is all that matters since they're the people we interact with, heh. So yeah, I'm not particuarly fond of all the magickers IG, but eh, it doesn't really matter.

This is so not true. This way of thinking will lead you to unrealistic actions and little awareness of your IC surroundings.

[LauraMars]

After x amount of playtime on your characters, you would get back 1 karma, automatically.. Then 1 more every set amount of time, until you go back to your maxium amount of karma.

I don't like this option, because it gives the impression that your characters MUST be longlived or you won't be "rewarded."  I have made characters whose fates would surely end in death, because I rolled them for the sole purpose of entertaining players by causing a ruckus.

What if I wanted to make a whiran who discovered her powers in the middle of the Barrel and was forced into a gem by a templar?  What if I then wanted to make an example of her by having her starve to death in the middle of the road rather than be enslaved, thus demonstrating to the population (and playerbase) the horrors of the gem?  It's an interesting (if depressing) concept, but with "spendable" karma such a thing wouldn't be nearly as doable.

Short lived characters can be as interesting as long lived ones, and players shouldn't be expected to think that long lived characters will be rewarded automatically, while short lived concepts will be punished by removal of karma.

It's a brainless system, and while I think there are a few problems with our current one (mainly related to distribution), it's fine as it is.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't like this option, because it gives the impression that your characters MUST be longlived or you won't be "rewarded.

While I don't really have an opinion on the matter one way or the other, I think this is a misunderstanding.

After x amount of playtime on your characters, you would get back 1 karma, automatically.

I do not think he means you have to have a 10 day character before you get your spendable karma back. You could have a 3 day character, a 6 day character, and a couple of 12 hour characters.

Disclaimer: The numbers here are for example only.

[Northlander]

I'll pull a number out of the sky and say 30% of all PC:s are fighters, hunters, the sort. I don't think 30% of the virtual population are fighters, hunters, the sort. I certainly don't think 2% try to make their living as assassins, 60% live in Tuluk or 15% are House Guards. But sometimes this is how the percentages are for PC:s.

Yet it's so damn jarring when it comes to magickers because I and others desperately hold on to the notion of gritty low-fantasy. I would like to see magickers in single-digit percentages, and think the way to do it is to move them up the karma tree. Krath knows even many of us with two or three karma are crappy roleplayers. Put a higher standard on playing magicker, make them more rare.

[Malken]

I do not think he means you have to have a 10 day character before you get your spendable karma back. You could have a 3 day character, a 6 day character, and a couple of 12 hour characters.

Exactly.. You wouldn't need to have to play a character for 40 days to have your karma back, just that you'd have to play a total time of 40 days, no matter how many characters you play.

And yes, the numbers are just for example.. It could be 1 karma back after every 5 days of playtime just as well.. And maybe even add a 'safe zone' in that.. No karma loss for the first 24 hours of your character's life.

[jhunter]

Naw, it's fine the way it is. I don't have a problem with the way things are currently and I think that the karma system works well. I see no reason to change it because a few people want to see some karma options even more limited than they already are.

[Forty Winks]

What to keep in mind is also the circumstances of the game that is having players more interested in playing a magicker than a mundane. Also, there might always have been what you may consider a large amount of player magickers IG, just the circumstances havn't brought them out into the open to public view and knowledge.

The war currently going on is bringing alot of magickers together, which may be a large reason players are feeling there is too many magickers IG.

Similary with half-elves and tribals, the amount of magickers IG at a time is also a cycle. Give it a few weeks or months and there'll be more of another kind of guild/race than usual, at least from my perspective.

Also to keep in mind is the fact that there is an elementalist quarters in allanak. Magickers, though they are a small percent of the population of the world, if brought together can make a fair sized portion. The same goes with pc magickers. When several magickers are brought together, it may appear there is an excess of them. It just depends from what perspective and location you are.

[Cale_Knight]

The main factor of karma really does seem to be number of years playing. Those players who have been a member of the community for a long time typically have higher amounts of karma.

As Arm gets older, you have more players with more karma and a larger percentage of the overall population with two or more points.

It would be nice, really nice, if those older players who play nothing but magickers would lay off and let things settle down a bit.

I don't have any real problem with the karma system. I like it. But there is absolutely nothing mysterious about magickers. There's plenty of mystery in the magic system, but the characters themselves are so wide-spread and so pervasive that it feels more overdone than anything else.

[SpyGuy]

The main factor of karma really does seem to be number of years playing. Those players who have been a member of the community for a long time typically have higher amounts of karma.

As Arm gets older, you have more players with more karma and a larger percentage of the overall population with two or more points.

It would be nice, really nice, if those older players who play nothing but magickers would lay off and let things settle down a bit.

I don't have any real problem with the karma system. I like it. But there is absolutely nothing mysterious about magickers. There's plenty of mystery in the magic system, but the characters themselves are so wide-spread and so pervasive that it feels more overdone than anything else.

The only real solution to this is to recruit more players who would start with 0 karma and therefore refresh the ranks of mundanes.  That said many players want to play magickers and with special apps can play them quite often though it is more controlled than players who just have karma.  I would actually propose having a time limit (4-6 months) on special app characters like there is one on getting account notes.  That might make the system more fair and balance out a few of the magicker PCs of people who don't have the karma but frequently apply for magicker special apps.

The best solution that I see though is to increase the number of people playing mundane PCs.  A part of that is to not stop recruiting but another important part is to make mundanes interesting to play.  Rejuvenate the Byn, enforce magicker rivalry with Noble Houses other than Oash and make them a focus of plots, lessen the influence of organized magickers in the wilds.  The revamp of the Northern nobility could really be a step in the right direction but just promoting interesting non-magicker options will really help.  One part of the problem I see from a limited vantage point is that magicker PCs are in a very amazing, very powerful position right now throughout the gameworld and are thereby really interesting to play.  Make mundanes just as interesting and/or reduce the amount of action occuring for magicker PCs and fewer people will play them.

People flock to what's fun and mages have skills that are really fun to play with.  When other factors in the gameworld come together to make the role more interesting it's only natural that more people will play them.  I still say this problem is blown out of proportion though.

As for the last comment of Mr. Knight's, magickers should be mysterious in the wilds.  In Allanak they shouldn't really be that mysterious, their presence is unwanted but it isn't a mystical experience to see a gemmer walking down the street.  That said if you're constantly seeing magickers in the wilds think long and hard about WHERE you are seeing those magickers.  There may be a reason they collect there and that may be a damn good reason for you not to go anywhere near that area.  RP your characters fears right and that cave to the northwest is no longer just a cave 5 w and 3 n of the gates but a haunted pit of vile magicks.

Edit:  Clearly I never proofread

[Intrepid]

That said, I believe that this system you propose is still unfair to the playerbase.

How so?

I know of a number of individuals, who, while not numerous, do happen to be very good roleplayers and have a nasty habit of dying just as magicker pcs.  These players do not play mages solely, but they would be punished by this system.

On the other hand, with this system, you're guaranteeing that I could abuse it just because I play nothing but long-lived pcs; I could make magicker after magicker and just make sure that each lives beyond the requisite time stated.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate someone playing nothing but magickers--however, blanket rules like this one hurt a larger number than you think and still will not provide a solution.

[TiberiusAlaric]

This is so not true. This way of thinking will lead you to unrealistic actions and little awareness of your IC surroundings.

No, it will lead me to believe that magickers are indeed a rare breed in the world. By seeing a magicker on every street corner, it really messes with your immersion, which is what leads to 'little awareness of your IC surroundings.'  

[bloodfromstone]

I believe the idea was that the timer would start upon your next mundane character, rather than counting the time played a magicker, which would defeat system.

Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with limiting the number of magickers one can play in a row. I don't necessarily think a system like this is the answer, but I do think that there is something to be said about playing magicker after magicker.

[jhunter]

This is so not true. This way of thinking will lead you to unrealistic actions and little awareness of your IC surroundings.

No, it will lead me to believe that magickers are indeed a rare breed in the world. By seeing a magicker on every street corner, it really messes with your immersion, which is what leads to 'little awareness of your IC surroundings.'  

Unless you are living in Allanak, I highly doubt you are "seeing a magicker on every street corner". They -are- a rare breed. Think outside of the box.

Honestly, I feel that alot of people are -greatly- exaggerating the issue. It isn't really -that- bad. If it was, I would also be experiencing the things that some of you are saying you have. As it stands, I have not even encountered this in any way at all.

[Forty Winks]

This is so not true. This way of thinking will lead you to unrealistic actions and little awareness of your IC surroundings.

No, it will lead me to believe that magickers are indeed a rare breed in the world. By seeing a magicker on every street corner, it really messes with your immersion, which is what leads to 'little awareness of your IC surroundings.'  

They are a 'rare breed', but when they congregate such as the allanaki elementalist quarters, they do not appear so. By not taking account of the NPC populace, you are actually doing the exact opposite of what you propose you are doing.

Aside from that, do not limit yourself in your perspective, as there are many aspects of the game that may not be what you believe so, despite what you percieve.

[TiberiusAlaric]

Unless you are living in Allanak, I highly doubt you are "seeing a magicker on every street corner". They -are- a rare breed. Think outside of the box.

Honestly, I feel that alot of people are -greatly- exaggerating the issue. It isn't really -that- bad. If it was, I would also be experiencing the things that some of you are saying you have. As it stands, I have not even encountered this in any way at all.

That's really illogical given the explanation for magickers. I shouldn't see one so much, that's just it. There should be no if, ands, or buts when it comes to it, but apparently, I have to "think outside of the box" to get something that is explicitly stated as being true.

I remember when I first logged into the game, I saw three gemmed characters just hanging out in a bar and no one else. I mean, what kind of impression is a person supposed to get about a game when one of the most 'rare' aspects of it is so blatant and obvious?

[Lazloth]

And yes, the numbers are just for example.. It could be 1 karma back after every 5 days of playtime just as well.. And maybe even add a 'safe zone' in that.. No karma loss for the first 24 hours of your character's life.

Karma is traditionally assumed to represent a gauge of trust the staff has in a given player:  a subjective measurement of responsibility, maturity, game knowledge, consistency.  There are numerous threads on the gdb about when/how/why karma is distributed (Xygax has some [older] summary discussion linked here.)  What is being kicked around in these recent posts (and this has come up before) is a notion of applying that measure as a chargen currency, and the proposal fails for numerous reasons [some already discussed, some I would attribute to our fairly large playerbase, to our erratic players, etc].

I find it odd that I seem to be the only one disturbed that 85% of the playerbase [at whatever point Halaster or Nusku (think it was this thread, could be wrong) sampled] played ranger, and people are bent out of shape that at peak 20% of the players online were magickers.

That said, I dislike the majority of ideas that are being offered as solutions to a "problem" that not everyone sees.

[jhunter]

Unless you are living in Allanak, I highly doubt you are "seeing a magicker on every street corner". They -are- a rare breed. Think outside of the box.

Honestly, I feel that alot of people are -greatly- exaggerating the issue. It isn't really -that- bad. If it was, I would also be experiencing the things that some of you are saying you have. As it stands, I have not even encountered this in any way at all.

That's really illogical given the explanation for magickers. I shouldn't see one so much, that's just it. There should be no if, ands, or buts when it comes to it, but apparently, I have to "think outside of the box" to get something that is explicitly stated as being true.

I remember when I first logged into the game, I saw three gemmed characters just hanging out in a bar and no one else. I mean, what kind of impression is a person supposed to get about a game when one of the most 'rare' aspects of it is so blatant and obvious?

But that's just it. Your character did -not- only see three gemmed magickers.  You are discounting the npc and vnpc world where you should -not-. And plain and simple, living in Allanak, unless you are living in a hole (and even then maybe) you -will- see magickers. You're character is -not- seeing -most- of the population as magickers -you-  the player are.

[TiberiusAlaric]

By not taking account of the NPC populace, you are actually doing the exact opposite of what you propose you are doing.

That's really a poor explanation for the magicker problem because I do take into account the VNPC population, but what does that matter when you have to interact with the magickers in a signifigant way that you do not have to with VNPCs? It doesn't, it is simply a poor excuse for something that's become grossly abused, at least I consider it to be.

[TiberiusAlaric]

But that's just it. Your character did -not- only see three gemmed magickers.  You are discounting the npc and vnpc world where you should -not-. And plain and simple, living in Allanak, unless you are living in a hole (and even then maybe) you -will- see magickers. You're character is -not- seeing -most- of the population as magickers -you-  the player are.

Okay, now this is just beginning to piss me off. That is the most illogical explanation for a grossly abused system that drastically changes the immersion of the game.  :evil:

[Forty Winks]

Unless you are living in Allanak, I highly doubt you are "seeing a magicker on every street corner". They -are- a rare breed. Think outside of the box.

Honestly, I feel that alot of people are -greatly- exaggerating the issue. It isn't really -that- bad. If it was, I would also be experiencing the things that some of you are saying you have. As it stands, I have not even encountered this in any way at all.

That's really illogical given the explanation for magickers. I shouldn't see one so much, that's just it. There should be no if, ands, or buts when it comes to it, but apparently, I have to "think outside of the box" to get something that is explicitly stated as being true.

I remember when I first logged into the game, I saw three gemmed characters just hanging out in a bar and no one else. I mean, what kind of impression is a person supposed to get about a game when one of the most 'rare' aspects of it is so blatant and obvious?

You forget about the elementalist quarter. There are also a few threads about gemmed magickers and places they hang out along with reasons. If you want to see a magicker, just to the elementalist quarters. It shouldn't be that surprising...though I don't advise going there just to see one.  :wink:

[jhunter]

But that's just it. Your character did -not- only see three gemmed magickers.  You are discounting the npc and vnpc world where you should -not-. And plain and simple, living in Allanak, unless you are living in a hole (and even then maybe) you -will- see magickers. You're character is -not- seeing -most- of the population as magickers -you-  the player are.

Okay, now this is just beginning to piss me off. That is the most illogical explanation for a grossly abused system that drastically changes the immersion of the game.  :evil:

There is nothing illogical about it. The vnpc and npc population count in -all- things IC. They -are- part of the gameworld. What exactly is "grossly abused"? I don't see anything getting abused here. If you cannot take into account the vnpc and the npc population around your pc as well, then you are not seeing the IC world as it really is. You are percieving the IC world through OOC glasses.