Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[jhunter]

That said if you're constantly seeing magickers in the wilds think long and hard about WHERE you are seeing those magickers. There may be a reason they collect there and that may be a damn good reason for you not to go anywhere near that area. RP your characters fears right and that cave to the northwest is no longer just a cave 5 w and 3 n of the gates but a haunted pit of vile magicks.

So true.

[Armaddict]

The vast majority of vnpc magickers are in the elementalists quarter (not 100% on that, but that's what I'm led to believe.)  I don't think the majority of them leave, either.

[Xygax]

This thread will hopefully stop circling the drain soon.

If it doesn't, I'll lock it tomorrow.

-- X

[Angela Christine]

I remember when I first logged into the game, I saw three gemmed characters just hanging out in a bar and no one else. I mean, what kind of impression is a person supposed to get about a game when one of the most 'rare' aspects of it is so blatant and obvious?

Would it have been better to go into the bar and see no PCs at all?

Even you don't like so many people playing elementalists, desert elves, half-elves, independents or rangers, it would be a mistake to assume that if you forbade people from playing the roles you dislike that they would start playing roles you approve of.  Those three players weren't playing to impress you, and giving them a narrower selection of roles couldn't force them to play the roles that you would like them to play.

I don't like this option, because it gives the impression that your characters MUST be longlived or you won't be "rewarded.

While I don't really have an opinion on the matter one way or the other, I think this is a misunderstanding.

After x amount of playtime on your characters, you would get back 1 karma, automatically.

I do not think he means you have to have a 10 day character before you get your spendable karma back. You could have a 3 day character, a 6 day character, and a couple of 12 hour characters.

Disclaimer: The numbers here are for example only.

This would certainly make apartments more popular.   :roll:   Logging out gets penalized, so just go to a safe room and go AFK instead.  Everyone loves it when the taverns are full of AFKers!   A system that rewards AFK and penalizes quitting is inherently flawed.  

It would also be grossly unfair to players that can only play 10-15 hours a week, but are engaged and attentive for the entire time.  Players that are able to log in from work can easily get 40+ hours per week even if they are only engaged and attentive for a few hours of that time.  


* * *


An option that seems more fair is to have the timer work on real time passed, not time played.  Your point of karma regenerates every 10 days passed.  So if you "spent" 3 karma on August 5, you would regenerate 1 point of karma on August 15, and another on August 25, regardless of how much you played during that time.  

This wouldn't encourage AFK behavior, but it would encourage people to just take a break and not log in at all for a few weeks if they want to take a role but need to wait a bit longer for karma to regenerate.  Play a Whiran and die to a mishap after 4 hours?  No biggie, just go buy a copy of Oblivion or Eve Online, and play that until your karma regenerates.  

Any timer program has the potential to reduce the total number of elementalists active at a time, but at the price of also reducing the total number of players active.



The other problem with karma timers is that they don't just effect elementalists.  I don't know if I've ever run into a PC Sorcerer or Psionicist, though I've heard about Sorcerers being active from time to time.  I don't recall even hearing about an active Psionicist, though my only sources of information are here on the GDB or in the game itself, so people that communicate OOCly probably hear about more than I do.  Maybe they are also too common, and I just never run into them.

But what about muls, half-giants and desert elves?  I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about too many half-giants.  I haven't heard complains about too many muls since the karma scale was revised a few years ago.  A karma regeneration system would also make these characters rarer.  A half-giant has a heck of a time finding a sparring partner as it is, I'd hate to make it even harder on them.


* * *


Sure, elementalists and other supernatural classes probably make up much less than 20% of the virtual population, so PC mages are over-represented.  So are PC Templars, PC nobles, and (Tek help us) PC half-elves.  If you want to keep things proportional half-elves should be, like, 5 karma at least.  In the virtual population half-elves are probably much less common than half-giants, and quite possibly less common than muls since no one is deliberately breeding them.  And we'll all have a lot of fun playing more than half of our playtime as slaves.  

Most Allanakis are slaves belonging to the nobles and Templars, and the commoners are usually of the merchant class or soldiers in Tektolnes' army. The rest of the population earn their living in less honest ways.

The PC population does not reflect the virtual population.  It isn't going to.



Angela Christine

[SpyGuy]

AC summed up a lot of what this debate has become pretty well.  GDB kudos.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

What triggered this whole discussion?

Tuluk and Allanak fight.

Allanaki templars round up every magicker they can and transport them to the war.

People in the camp have to live side-by-side with magickers and even work with them.

Tulukis have to face magicker opponents.

People complain that magickers abound.

Is this last point really fair?

[Ghost]

That did not trigger the discussion.  What triggered this discussion is, there are too many magickers on the loose.

[Cegar]

I would be in favor of seeing less magickers if they were given more power at the start. I'd actually be in favor of moving muls/half-giants down a few pegs, moving magickers up, and replacing the desert-elf option with magicker.

[jcarter]

It's just a fluctuation in the playerbase. Eventually, it'll go away and even itself out.

[Yokunama]

What triggered this discussion is, there are too many magickers on the loose.

The PC population does not reflect the virtual population.  It isn't going to.

Theres nothing wrong with the population of the magickers. There are tons of virtual magickers.

:lol: I predict the next post like this will be "Too many halflings" :lol:

[LoD]

I would be in favor of seeing less magickers if they were given more power at the start. I'd actually be in favor of moving muls/half-giants down a few pegs, moving magickers up, and replacing the desert-elf option with magicker.

Muls were moved up in karma years ago because, in part, of what is happening now with magickers.  Several people attained mul karma, fell in love with the power of the class, and began to make mul after mul.  The real issue came into play when the majority of these players elected to play "escaped" muls rather than slaves, which are much more rare.

Each of the karma guilds has certain limitations that help keep the world balanced.  Not balanced in a X = Y way, but in a X * 50 = Y * 5 way.  Muls are controlled and kept balanced by the fact that every single one is brought up in captivity and a slave.  Half-giants are limited by their culture; kind, curious, and dim witted.  They suffer from slow skill progression and difficulty fitting into any of the clan models for anything other than a very niche role (e.g. guard)

Rogue magickers, meaning those that are on the loose running the wilds of the northlands, grasslands, tablelands, and other lands are the choice presently up for discussion.  I'd like to be able to follow the documentation and treat magick as a rare and wondrous thing on the world, but the more people that gain magicker karma, the more magickers are likely going to be in the game at any one given time.  Because of this, the idea that this "cycle" or "trend" will end probably is less applicable to the current situation than for rangers, half-elves, warriors, or any of the mundane classes that have always been a choice of the masses.

What I'd like to see is a system of controls in place for rogue mages outside of the city.  Muls and Half-Giants who are not magickers are forced to interact with at least their environment for food, water, and shelter.  They stand a higher chance of being witnessed by passerbys, tribals, travellers, and other folks.  They're potentially as great a threat "out of the box" as a medium level mage, but they don't scale the same.  And any skill advancement is going to require some obvious exposure to the gameworld.

Mages can (and many likely do) sit in a chamber somewhere they consider safe and gain their power without any interaction whatsoever.  The only thing they need to become extremely powerful is food, water, and time.  No other class in the game can accomplish this task, and for that to be true of the most potentially powerful classes in the game is unfortunate.

Suggestion[/u]

I don't think changing karma or placing hard caps on magicker numbers is the answer, but addressing the model of the mage.  I'd suggest something along the following:

:arrow: Magickers would begin with the first/second tier of spells.
:arrow: Future spells would need to be taught by other magickers (NPC or PC).

This would accomplish a few things:

:arrow: Magickers could no longer sit in a room and become one of the most powerful beings on the planet with nearly 0 interaction.

If people knew they wouldn't be able to improve unless they found another mage more powerful than themselves from whom to learn, they might consider mundane classes more appealing.  I imagine we'd have a lot less "rogue" magickers because some semblance of a mage community would become a requirement for higher level skill progression.

:arrow: Magickers would have to interact to increase power.

The world would have more of a chance to witness a magicker's desire for power and respond accordingly.  A few people have mentioned that magickers aren't necessarily the trouble, but rather the vast amount of power that can be easily attained.  Interaction gives the playerbase a chance (at least) to witness this mage at a stage before they are completely comfortable handling most mundane threats.  It also creates a set of controls in game for magickers, and a whole layer of possible interaction within the gameworld.

:arrow: Magicker distribution would be more realistic.

Mage communities would be more normal, and powerful mages would be given more responsibility because they would have access to that power.  This would likely encourage more magickers to join, or at least communicate, with other mage groups in their attempt to further their learning.  Rogue magickers would really have a tough time learning or progressing because of a lack of teachers.  This would give them a purpose and a desire to follow leads on where such a person could be found, creating interesting events and more control over their presence away from these communities (not just Allanak).

If we really[/i] want to see magick as a rare and mysterious thing, then start with the magickers.  Make it rare and mysterious to them as well, and that will trickle down into the rest of the game.

-LoD

[Delirium]

What happens when you:

Play off peak
Are one of the only mages around
Don't find anyone more powerful than you

The list goes on - this might be nice for sorcerers, but the same problems remain there as well, only exemplified.  A setup like that could fast create a total vaccum of magick users, which might make you (LOD) happy, but some of us don't mind seeing magick in Armageddon at all.

Magick is what created/destroyed Zalanthas, it's always been present.  "Low" fantasy doesn't mean no or little magick, as has been stated before.  I sometimes feel like if the "MAKE IT HARDER, MAKE IT HARSHER" crowd had their way, we would all be playing minigames and hardly interacting with each other at all.  Now, this might seem to contradict with my disagreement of the above post, but actually - my problem with the above post is that there are too many ways for it to be frustratingly impossible to persue your goals with your character due to largely OOC constraints.

I see this trend a lot on the GDB - someone doesn't like a certain race or guild (half-elves, thieves, mages) and wants to restrict them so they're around less.  The simple fact of the matter is that people will play what they are attracted to, and while I agree that being flexible in your choices is a good thing, if playing a mage is what you have the most fun with and do best at, then I am not going to get my pants all in a bunch because you're having fun playing a character in this GAME.

Hell, the role of a gemmed elementalist when there isn't a war on is one of the most restricted, boring, and challenging roles I have ever had the displeasure of chewing my way through.  I am a self-motivated player that normally has absolutely no trouble entertaining myself and others, but the role of a gemmed is something I never intend to suffer through again unless there are some noticeable changes in the infrastructure of the way Elementalists are treated in Allanak.

I absolutely do not blame people for making and playing a bunch of gemmed mages when there is actually something for them to do (other than become an Oashi's pet).  The restriction of the gemmed role is also a large part of why people play so many rogue mages.  I absolutely do not blame people for persuing the rogue mage role, because of the restriction and frequent boredom of the gemmed role.

If there was a true culture in the Elementalist's quarter (i.e. a tavern, enough shops so that you could live in it without having to leave) then perhaps people would get what they want - Elementalists who never leave the Quarter.   What else would we get?  An entire segment of the playerbase that is, for the most part, totally isolated from the rest.

That's just not fun in a game.

[LoD]

I see this trend a lot on the GDB - someone doesn't like a certain race or guild (half-elves, thieves, mages) and wants to restrict them so they're around less.

I don't want magickers to be less.  I don't want them to be so restricted that people don't want to play one, but I do want them to be restricted enough so that their role choices more closely reflect a world in which magick is "...mysterious and very rare..."

I don't find it realistic that so many rogue mages:

a) Survive the initial "discovery" of their talents.
b) Survive the reaction of their civilization.
c) Survive the life of a wanted man, barely able to defend themselves.
d) Are able to amass power with absolutely NO interaction.

Rogue magickers seem to exist more out of OOC wants/desires than an IC situation. The players don't want to be required to cast in a temple.  They don't want to be forced to wear a gem.  They don't want to be watched over by a templar.  They don't want any controlling factors or restrictions to their gameplay.  And I just find that to be an extremely abusive situation considering the sheer amount of power they can wield.

All I am asking is that some restriction or set of controls be added to the equation of the free/rogue mage.  Why should ANY class be able to go from zero to hero without ever being in the same room as another person?  In my opinion, it's a broken model and unless someone can provide me with a good arguement why the most powerful classes in the game have the easiest paths to power, then I'll continue to debate it.

Because people want to have fun isn't a valid arguement for me.  Of course it's fun to throw around magick.  Of course it's fun to giggle at someone reacting to your invisible presence, or bathe someone in magickal flame, or travel between points of the Known World in a manner of seconds, but if there's no real effort involved in attaining that power, then why should the player respect it?  If they die, they can just submit a new application, wait a few weeks and SHA-BAM, we're right back where we started and no one's the wiser.

I'd like to see high level magick more difficult to attain, and I think that requiring SOME form of interaction on behalf of the mage population to achieve it is a reasonable topic for debate.

-LoD

[Malken]

All I am asking is that some restriction or set of controls be added to the equation of the free/rogue mage.  Why should ANY class be able to go from zero to hero without ever being in the same room as another person?  In my opinion, it's a broken model and unless someone can provide me with a good arguement why the most powerful classes in the game have the easiest paths to power, then I'll continue to debate it.

You make it sound like this is something we enjoy doing. Let me tell you, there's nothing more boring and that makes me feel 'dirtier' than casting my spells in a room over and over just so I can survive, this goes against everything that we are supposed to do, but it still pretty much the only way to go if you want to survive as a rogue magicker.. But on the other end, I wouldn't want to be stuck with a gemmed role if I wanted to play another magicker, like Delirium, I really really hated it.

Your suggestion is good, in theory, but what happens once the last of the strongest of the magickers dies off? No one gets to advance without the help from a Staff member that passes on the powers to another player?

[jhunter]

Rogue magickers seem to exist more out of OOC wants/desires than an IC situation. The players don't want to be required to cast in a temple. They don't want to be forced to wear a gem. They don't want to be watched over by a templar. They don't want any controlling factors or restrictions to their gameplay. And I just find that to be an extremely abusive situation considering the sheer amount of power they can wield.

I don't want them to be so restricted that people don't want to play one, but I do want them to be restricted enough so that their role choices more closely reflect a world in which magick is "...mysterious and very rare..."

But, by reading both things you posted there. It really does sound like you want some people to stop playing them. What's abusive about it? You seem to be saying that: "If they don't want to be stuck in a very restrictive, controlled life of boredom (for the player) then I don't want them playing one."
I personally have founded gemmed to be very restrictive and boring myself. I've found most clans to be the same way. I prefer to play rogue magickers for the same reason I prefer to play independant pcs of any other guild. There's nothing abusive about it, it's what I -enjoy- playing.

And there are controlling factors and restrictions to playing a rogue mage. It's harder to keep yourself alive when you cannot just waltz into a city and purchase what you need. It is difficult to know that -anyone- else who finds out about you will probably report you to those who will try and kill you or foolishly try and do it themselves. It's a life with alot of solitude and danger.

There's always someone complaining about anything other than Race Human /Guild Warrior...etc...

Or complaining about those that don't want to play in the common clans.

I've got a great idea. Play what you want to play and let others play what they want to play so long as it is within the standards of the gameworld. If there was any -real- problem with the mages, I trust the staff would have already done something about it.

[Jherlen]

I'm curious why you seem to think that there are magickers hiding out in the desert and solo-casting their way to superpowerdom, LoD. Do you have anything to back that idea up?

I'm sure it's possible to spend 20 days in a sekrit hideout doing nothing but casting and avoiding any other players... but does that mean people are doing it? There are plenty of ways to twink and buff up mundane classes too, while avoiding harmful interaction. You can't pick and choose behaviors to limit. If you want to force more interaction on rogue mages, I'll immediately ask that we also force more interaction on halflings and desert elves and all the other iso roles out there.

In general, I'm all for interaction in a roleplaying game. But I like the options mages have right now and don't see a need to change them. I think their role choices are fairly restricted already - you can either be a heavily-restricted gemmer, a sekrit magicker who may not get to cast spells much, or a rogue who pretty much has to avoid both major cities and the largest concentrations of playerbase. And we want to restrict this further?

Maybe we could institute population-caps on certain karma guilds, or the staff could enforce a one-on, one-off rule (must play at least one mundane character after every magicker), but I still don't think the problem here is as big a one as everyone is making it out to be.



edit: Okay... from reading Malken's post I guess some people -do- hide themselves away and solo-cast magick spells.  :roll: But even he acknowledges it feels dirty. If this is the only way rogue mages can survive, then maybe it needs to be addressed - but I still think further restriction on mage roles is unnessecary.

[Malken]

edit: Okay... from reading Malken's post I guess some people -do- hide themselves away and solo-cast magick spells.  :roll: But even he acknowledges it feels dirty. If this is the only way rogue mages can survive, then maybe it needs to be addressed - but I still think further restriction on mage roles is unnessecary.

By rooms I also meant caves, secret hideouts, etc.. But you have to agree with me that there isn't many other ways if you want to survive as a rogue magicker.

Even by finding a teacher, you'd still have to cast your spells somewhere, somehow..

[LoD]

In general, I'm all for interaction in a roleplaying game. But I like the options mages have right now and don't see a need to change them. I think their role choices are fairly restricted already - you can either be a heavily-restricted gemmer, a sekrit magicker who may not get to cast spells much, or a rogue who pretty much has to avoid both major cities and the largest concentrations of playerbase. And we want to restrict this further?

Yes, or change the documentation to read, "Magick on Armageddon is uncommon, but something most citizens of Allanak and travellers will have to deal with from time to time."

-LoD

[Ghost]

I don't find it realistic that so many rogue mages:

a) Survive the initial "discovery" of their talents.
b) Survive the reaction of their civilization.
c) Survive the life of a wanted man, barely able to defend themselves.
d) Are able to amass power with absolutely NO interaction.

I actually agree with LoD on these points.  And I also like the idea of learning  magick by teaching alone.

Your suggestion is good, in theory, but what happens once the last of the strongest of the magickers dies off?

This can be fixed with the idea, nil casting is taken off the chart, and you can only rise in power much slower if you are doing it on your own.  So the better idea would be to look for a teacher, because it does not work good otherwise.

A different idea would be, changing the karma tree.  Add the option of starting off with the gem, and that you could play with the current karma tree.  But how about, if you want to play ungemmed,
(For ungemmed magickers)
Rukkian/Vivaduan= 5 karma.
Whiran/krathian= 6 karma.
Elkran/Drovian=7 karma.
Nilazi=8 karma.  (They do not seem to be much easier than a sorcerer)


OR you could special app for a rogue magicker.

[Jherlen]

A different idea would be, changing the karma tree.  Add the option of starting off with the gem, and that you could play with the current karma tree.  But how about, if you want to play ungemmed,
(For ungemmed magickers)
Rukkian/Vivaduan= 5 karma.
Whiran/krathian= 6 karma.
Elkran/Drovian=7 karma.
Nilazi=8 karma.  (They do not seem to be much easier than a sorcerer)


OR you could special app for a rogue magicker.

I think this might be the best idea in this thread.

You'd need to couple it with some redevelopments in the gemmer quarter, since you'd likely have far more gemmers - I'd like to see something along the lines of what Delerium posted.

But yeah. Making ungemmed mages higher karma, + more depth to mage quarter in Allanak = good solution.

[Malken]

But what keeps a gemmed magicker to just becoming a rogue one after a while?

If there's something I don't know ICly about gems, that could prevent them from turning rogue and vanishing in the wild, just say so and I'll just nod in approval to the idea

[Xygax]

But what keeps a gemmed magicker to just becoming a rogue one after a while?

There is enough code and un-coded disadvantage to this to make it less than worth-while.  Leave it at that.

-- X

[Gimfalisette]

Yes, or change the documentation to read, "Magick on Armageddon is uncommon, but something most citizens of Allanak and travellers will have to deal with from time to time."

/agree with this. Magick is so common that even a mundane, Tuluki, city-dwelling character is likely going to deal with it in some respect on every login.

[jhunter]

Yes, or change the documentation to read, "Magick on Armageddon is uncommon, but something most citizens of Allanak and travellers will have to deal with from time to time."

/agree with this. Magick is so common that even a mundane, Tuluki, city-dwelling character is likely going to deal with it in some respect on every login.

Damn, I must be playing in a different Tuluk than those of you in this thread.

[LoD]

A different idea would be, changing the karma tree.  Add the option of starting off with the gem, and that you could play with the current karma tree.  But how about, if you want to play ungemmed,
(For ungemmed magickers)
Rukkian/Vivaduan= 5 karma.
Whiran/krathian= 6 karma.
Elkran/Drovian=7 karma.
Nilazi=8 karma.  (They do not seem to be much easier than a sorcerer)


OR you could special app for a rogue magicker.

I also think this is a great solution.  Being gemmed would give new magickers a safer environment in which to learn, and the higher level karma would keep the rogue magicker count down to numbers that are more realistic for an environment that would be inhospitable at every turn to their kind.

-LoD