Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

You really are putting words in peoples' mouths to a rather offensive degree, Armaddict.

Yes, I kind of am.  However...that's because I see people all over saying 'I enjoy playing mages' or 'Mages are awesome, but...' and then they go on to state the things that are -not- fun about a mage.

But...those things are things that have always come alongside playing a mage.  So...I don't think they enjoy playing 'mages' as much as playing 'spellcasters'.

Yes, it's mean, and I'm sorry.  But as has always happened in the past...I'm against these sort of changes that will, in my opinion, quite literally -change- this game from how it's been.  You can say it's for the better...but when you play for seven or eight years with no one having -too- big of a gripe against the mistrust and hatred against a certain role, and then it becomes a suggestion to change or 'loosen' such so that that role can have a more similar-to-a-mundane-character experience while as something completely different...it really grinds my gears (<--YES!  I got to say it.)

[Armaddict]

What I and others (including LoD) are saying here is that we might widen that gap even more by giving mages another direction to go in, giving them goals and conflicts that put them still more at-odds with mundane players, while also providing them more "fun" stuff to do. If people want to offer suggestions along these lines, those are the suggestions I personally am more interested in seeing implemented (or going off and implementing, myself).

Are you talking about for gemmed mages, though?  In the city goals that put them at odds with mundanes?

I'm probably misunderstanding the statement at this point...but wouldn't that be something that would send templars to constantly quash unruly mages and eventually the goal itself (if it were something quashable like that...once again...I don't think I fully understand what you mean.)

[Armaddict]

And if you're not talking about making mages more accepted and that such...then I completely misinterpreted and apologize.

But do keep in mind...more employment opportunity by existing houses/groups -is- more tolerance and acceptance.

[marko]

If people want to offer suggestions along these lines, those are the suggestions I personally am more interested in seeing implemented (or going off and implementing, myself).

I think the elemental quarter should expand its internal market with a quitable tavern / den thingie.  I believe that would help the elemental quarter a lot.  

I'm always surprised that the elemental quarter doesn't have more PCs congregating in the little market there but I guess they need a tavern structure to understand that you can go there to hang out and relax.  

Something simple will do just fine.  With that one addition I think the elemental quarter will be granted the opportunity to develop its own culture - and have inner-quarter conflict (one temple versus another temple like say drov vs krath).

Other than that, I think everything is fine for magickers.  Magickers can do anything they want - the problem that I've seen both in the game and while reading these threads is that people tend to define their magick characters as magickers and not people with magickal abilities.  If people could play their characters as characters and not as magickers I think you'll see a lot more enjoyment out of the roles.

[Forty Winks]

As it seems the thread has wandered abit from the original intent, thought I'll try and sum what's been added so far from my perspective.

:arrow: People want to see less magickers, and keep the sense that they are rare. Yet, it's been pointed out that the current amount of magickers, though abit high, is alright with with the staff considering the npc population.
:arrow: The idea of changing the karma tree to have magickers limited to gemmers before going rogue gets introduced, and it seems people like the notion. Reasons likely because it'll make magickers less appealing than mundane, which I don't like the reason of. If there is too much of a race of guild, making the guild/race less appealing will only make Armageddon as a game less appealing to players who might enjoy those roles, which I hope isn't a result anyone would like.
:arrow: The elementalist quarters in Allanak should be improved upon, so that those who are gemmed, or are considering playing a gemmed elementalist, will not be bored out of their minds and play a rogue instead.

Funny thing is, improving the elementalist quarter won't lessen the amount of players who are playing magickers, and may rather result in even more magickers.

My point being, for those people who feel the experience of magickers being rare is being ruined, please consider where your character is, and the circumstances surrounding your mundane character. For those of the south, you as a player should know, despite the magicker population being considerably smaller than the rest of the population of mundanes, once they are all congregated in a quarter, or location, it may seem there are more than the ratio should be. This doesn't mean magickers have suddenly become widespread and a commonplace thing. It only mean where you are currently are is a gathering place for magickers.

[Armaddict]

once they are all congregated in a quarter, or location, it may seem there are more than the ratio should be.

Except that most mundanes would probably not wander there much.  Though it'd be kind of cool to walk in there and see mages you'd never seen everywhere and actually get to marvel at it.

[Anonymous]

I don't see it currently being a problem but a potential future problem...mundanes are supposed to react a certain way with magickers...most commoners should be shitting their pants when they see one. I'd hate to see the day i enter a tavern with my Ranger and see nothing but magickers at the bar...there is only so much shit his pants can hold.

Thats the difference between rangers and magickers... PCs can't go up to a magicker and say lets go do this without huge ic reasoning like a pc could with a ranger.

That said it would be nice if magickal ability could be used in other ways or clan. I can see two clans hire magickers to some extent...the byn and Kurac (or maybe those clans already do  :wink: ) ...However the biggest problem always comes down to control and guarantee, when it comes to magickers there is none.

For example those crazy rogue magickers usually working from the wilds...there is almost nothing or anybody to stop them from causing trouble. You can't hire templars to help you in the wilds, you can't hire the byn to deal with them, you don't have specialized hunters or outriders. The only way to deal with magickers is to run.

The balance of armageddon wasn't in the classes itself but that fact that were few PC magickers running around so every second person you met didn't automatically have the ability to kill you or force you to RP fear. Thats changing or could very likely change. More people seem to be playing magickers and guess what now they want to be able to RP in more places with them.

Making magickers even more karma restricted sounds silly to me, because that falls way beyond trusting that someone knows how to play magickers or won't abuse the code to a level where only the most perfect of RPing type people may have the skill in a few imms eyes to play a cool class.

The solution? I don't quite know...but their has to be some balance to the game to make it playable. Not nessasarily in the code but possibly a change in the way things are handled. Doesn't mean the world begins to love magickers but maybe the world need regular witch-hunters...paving the way for witch-hunter robins.

[Xygax]

Arm:  Again, you have filled my mouth with words that don't follow from my remarks.

a) I don't care whether the mage is gemmed or ungemmed.  They should have magick-y goals beyond just "branch 'assault snake'" (which is a good idea for a spell, isn't it??).

b) I'm not talking about IC employment, I'm talking about goals and tasks that act as catalysts for interaction with the world (whether that interaction be negative or positive, again I don't care -- but I am a big fan of friction)

Right now, I think many mages spend their time engaged in seeking power for power's sake, without any long-term end goal in sight.  A long term end goal (or series of long-term goals) with both coded and RP'd "milestones" would benefit them and benefit the game by keeping them largely out of other players' hair (or actively IN other player's hair, but hopefully with more IC purpose than simply preying on them).

That's a larger project though.  I think it would be interesting to flesh out some simpler systems that keep mages busy with things that non-mages either can't perceive or don't have access to.  There are already magick-y "things" all over the world, but in many respects those things don't actually DO much.  Giving magickers more natural enemies or parasites -- things they can struggle against beyond the realms mundane PCs have access to -- would be tremendously cool, I think.

-- X

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't suggest ushering in an OOC change for the sake of change.  But I question how much of a change it would be ICly, if they are really supposed to be as isolated as they are now?  Or are PCs applying more stigma than the populace in general, perhaps right now we're all elves riding kanks.

Not to mention that the current situation offers a great opportunity to de-demonize elementalists in Allanak (while simultaneously making them even more hated in Tuluk).  Apparently elementalists are contributing food, water, healing, and offensive capabilities to the war effort.  Do you think Lord Templar Tightass would bother himself to heal you or your buddy?  Not unless you're pretty special, or have an important friend.  But that little water mage did, and it didn't make your dick shrivel up and fall off or anything.   [Note: this paragraph did not refer to any specific PCs, living or dead.  It's a fictional example]

And no, the sorcerer analogy still applies.  The point of is not that mages are like sorcerers.  The point of it is that you are arguing against the way the role is and always has been due to deepset, existing cultural biases.  

But it hasn't always been that way.  That's the point.  There are players around who can remember when the roles for elementalists weren't nearly as restrictive as they are now.  The helpfiles themselves indicate that there was more acceptance, or was intended to be more acceptance, in the past.

Stone elementalists:

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys. Stone mages are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Sun Elementalists:

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat. Although a mage may have certain goals in mind for his/her life, the fact remains that sun mages can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

Water Elementalists:

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Wind Elementalists:

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

As travelling companions, wind mages may be somewhat undependable-- they will typically become very tired of 'just walking,' and may abandon any party with which they are journeying.

Heck, even Void Elementalists talk about their employability:

Employment is only found in some other job, as their abilities aren't generally desired by few but those seeking quick movement of masses of people.

Due to their nature, void elementalists are distrustful of most and so make questionable at best travelling companions.

Contrast that with the file for Sorcerers:

Because of their potential power, the Kings of Old, as well as the lords of the city-states of the contemporary world, do not permit sorcerers to exist. All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity. Being powerful in the way of psionics, High Templars and the Kings themselves can easily sense a sorcerer's presence if said sorcerers do not properly shield their minds at all times.

Nothing there about Sorcerers getting jobs or whether they good traveling companions.


Elementalists are supposed to be part of society.  They are supposed to get jobs.  They are supposed to be considered as travelling companions.

Sorcerers are supposed to be outsiders.  They don't admit what they are, or get jobs, or offer their services as travelling companions.


Elementalists are not Sorcerers.  There is a difference.



Angela Christine

[Hot_Dancer]

How about coming up with a list of potential jobs, goals and roles for magicker PC's to slap onto the website? I think that'd be an excellent end statement for this thread.

Hot Dancer

[Angela Christine]

For example those crazy rogue magickers usually working from the wilds...there is almost nothing or anybody to stop them from causing trouble. You can't hire templars to help you in the wilds, you can't hire the byn to deal with them, you don't have specialized hunters or outriders. The only way to deal with magickers is to run.

Fight fire with fire.  Who are the perfect people to fight rogue elementalists?  Other elementalists.  Particularly if those elementalists are working with skilled swordsmen.  One elementalist alone can't touch a mixed group of elementalists and mundane tough guys.  Undo his enchantments.  Make him visible so the fighters can shoot him.  Knock him out of the air so that the rangers can track him when he tries to run.  
Unmake the bitch.


You can't hire a Templar, but you can hire Elementalists.  You can't hire the Militia, but you can hire the Byn.  If you can somehow convince the Byn to work with your elementalists, then that rogue is toast.



Angela Christine

[Armaddict]

Arm: Again, you have filled my mouth with words that don't follow from my remarks.

Actually...I just asked you questions and made it known I didn't understand exactly what you meant.

AC:

em·ploy   Audio pronunciation of "employable" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (m-ploi)
tr.v. em·ployed, em·ploy·ing, em·ploys

  1.
        1. To engage the services of; put to work: agreed to employ the job applicant.
        2. To provide with gainful work: factories that employ thousands.
  2. To put to use or service. See Synonyms at use.
  3. To devote (time, for example) to an activity or purpose: employed several months in learning Swahili.


Yes.  It says they are 'employable' as this and this and this.  First off, that can be something that was just kind of left alone since things became more strict.  I don't know.

However...in the cases of those helpfiles, it does not say they are widely hired (employed) and used for this.  It says they are employable as this.  It is a way of describing their uses.  'This is what they can do, should you ever have the need to hire them.'  Yes, mages do get hired.  Just generally not by anyone with a long-standing good reputation (i.e. noble houses).

Likewise, 'make questionable at best traveling companions' or 'invaluable as travelling companions' does the same, as well as showing a general outlook on that kind of magicker compared to others.  Indeed, there -is- nothing stopping people from hiring mages.  However, as noted...those with the resources to not do it may generally decide not to.  By the phrasing of those helpfiles, however, I'd say they're just very old. Perhaps even back from 'halflings in taverns' days, but I can be completely wrong.

And back the analogy.  You're still thinking about it the wrong way.  IN NO WAY DOES SAID ANALOGY COMPARE A MAGE TO A SORCERER.  Except one.  They both have things attached to them because of the role.  As a sorcerer, you're hunted down, killed, feared, etc.  As a -mage-, you are distrusted, generally hated, generally restricted, or forced to find a way around those limitations and general feelings.  The analogy just says...it's part of the role.

[SpyGuy]

Ok, this topic exploded while I was reading it so I'm way behind on the current Armaddict vs. Xygax side of things, I stopped reading every post around page 13.  But I still have a few things to add.

I have played one mage.  A gemmed Oashi employee who is by far my favorite character and longest lived.  I fully understand the role isn't for everyone and will definitely differ due to your mage guild.  Being a gemmed Vivaduan is much different than being a gemmed Whiran even though they both are mages, these classes are all unique and the role they fill needs to be thought out in advance before making one.  I just wanted to voice my opposition to the "Oashi pet" talk, it's basically an aide role.  An aide role that you play while having the power to blow up a tavern's worth of people and pursue magick knowledge and plots.  Certainly isn't for everyone but those who haven't tried it should give it a lot of thought and do so sometime they know Oash is active (that also makes a big difference).

I'd also be in support of making all ungemmed mages cost more karma (making them all cost 6 karma seems fair).  It would definitely force most people to play gemmed mages so that there isn't a lopsided playerbase where 50% or more of mages are ungemmed.  This would basically be a push in the direction of establishing of the elementalist's Quarter as the mage haven of the gameworld and those outside it as exceptional cases.  This would be a big change to current PC populations but it makes perfect IC sense to me that mages all over the world would flock to the only open and public place they can exist in peace.

Doing so, however, would require alterimg the Mage's Quarter.  Make it easier for people to hire gemmed mages on a temporary basis as well as giving gemmers a culture of their own which is lacking.  Then also encouraging plots of magickers vs. mundanes in all their glory to help reinforce that mages are very very dangerous and though useful aren't cuddly bunnies of water giving.  Easier said than done though.

[jcarter]

I'd also be in support of making all ungemmed mages cost more karma (making them all cost 6 karma seems fair)

This is really starting to get out of hand.

How exactly is making all ungemmed mages 6 karma going to improve Armageddon?

[Ghost]

How exactly is making all ungemmed mages 6 karma going to improve Armageddon?

Sorry, but it has been already explained before. If you disagree with the points made, tell where you disagree.  If you did not understand, say where you lost it.

[Dre]

[Derailment]
Witch Hunter Robin is a 16 year old girl who is a craft user (elementalist) who's job is to basically hunt down other witches(rogue elementalists, psionists and sorcerers)...its a good anime show dealing with prejudice and fear...despite it being in modern japan it really would give insight on 'mundanes' and magickers.

[/derailment]

While it sounds like a great idea AC and i find the concept of mage hunters totally cool....the fact is a commoner appoaching any magicker for help in anyway or wanting to do something with them with being forced to is ICly crazy and borderline twinkish, at least in my perception with current Imm guildlines. There was that thread recently of how some people thought others should be more afraid of dealing with magickers then they were, even if being forced to work with them in the war in the current HRPT. In fact i think this thread stems from that one.

One of the ways i can icly see it be done is for certain clans (again i'm still thinking Tzai byn and Kurac) with imms support and blessing...is to begin educating and training a handful of individuals inorder to tackle special tasks, for example inorder to be able to work with an elementalist partner and not shit their pants. Or be equiped or have special knowledge that teh general commoners wouldn't know about on how to bring down a magicker of X type (I've never bothered reading the magick docs so i've never been 100% sure of the spellings of magicker names). I think this is perfectly reasonable and 100 percent unadulterated fun.

Like it has been stated the number of magickers in game isn't currently a problem but someday it just might be. I really don't think players that constantly play magickers or play a magicker ever second PC want imms to crack down on them...then again i don't think making them more karma restricting or having players trying to police themselves without knowing how many magickers are actually in the game at any given time is the solution.

What is?...Don't know  :cry:

[Angela Christine]

And back the analogy.  You're still thinking about it the wrong way.  IN NO WAY DOES SAID ANALOGY COMPARE A MAGE TO A SORCERER.  Except one.  They both have things attached to them because of the role.  As a sorcerer, you're hunted down, killed, feared, etc.  As a -mage-, you are distrusted, generally hated, generally restricted, or forced to find a way around those limitations and general feelings.  The analogy just says...it's part of the role.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the analogy at all.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.


My point is that I believe some of the baggage that is supposed to be associated with Sorcerers has leaked onto Elementalists, resulting in Elementalists receiving more hate and fear than they are entitled to.    Perhaps the IC slang/slur "magicker" becoming widely used OOCly on the GDB contributed to it.  Maybe it is the Tuluki mindset infecting the world at large.  I don't know.  The situation for Elementalists in Allanak seems worse to me today than it was when I started playing.  

(For a concrete, non-sensitive example of this consider the walling up of various roads leading in and out of the quarter.  This is really annoying if, for example, you want to go to the Bazaar.  Instead of an alley connecting Ruk's way to Trader's Road you now have to go all the way down to Caravan Road and around Melenath's circle.   Sure, there were IC explanations, but since it was an act of the Senate rather than PCs it felt very much like something imposed by staff rather than that developed naturally IC.)


I don't agree that the elementalists quarter was built to segregate or contain elementalists.  It was built to contain magick.  You have people casting in one section, so that the spell effects don't panic the herd.  Some spells are noisy or flashy, and that would bother the neighbours.  As far as I can tell the Elementalists themselves were always allowed to move and live anywhere in the city that commoners are allowed to live, because they are commoners.  They just had to restrict spells and spell effects to the Temple zone.


I don't play many Elementalists, in fact I don't play karma roles much, because of the pressure to perform with a karma role.  The changes I'd like to see wouldn't change that, because performance anxiety is all about OOC judgements, not the IC situation.  But even when I'm playing a ranger or a merchant I'd like to see the Elementalists in Allanak be useful members of society.


Angela Christine

[Intrepid]

While it sounds like a great idea AC and i find the concept of mage hunters totally cool....the fact is a commoner appoaching any magicker for help in anyway or wanting to do something with them with being forced to is ICly crazy and borderline twinkish, at least in my perception with current Imm guildlines.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to players going so far overboard on how the documentation is perceived that all attempts at perspective have been lost.

They're tolerated in Allanak.  If you have an elementalist problem and can't wrap your mind around the idea of fighting fire with fire, then the problem must not be severe enough yet.  Elementalists are low in society, but they're not at the bottom and they're not illegal.  They're still in society.  They're still tolerated.  Tolerated, guys.  This is a word that has been used on every rpmud and yet the majority of players never seems to understand what it means to tolerate someone.

Has it ever occurred to any of you that these classes are not in game to play as a seperate group but to add intrigue to the already existing story?  How do you do that if you can't even wrap your minds around these people being in the same room without you thinking that addressing them is twinkish?

For some of you, this game is small.  For others, this game is shrinking.

[Delirium]

Yeah, ideally there should be more things for players of mages to do that don't so much involve interaction with non-mages.

-- X

X - some ideas for self-sustainability off the top of my head:

:arrow:  NPCs that will buy things created by mages (vivaduans, rukkians, a certain Krathi spell that branches fairly early).  If component craftables are sellable to NPCs in the Quarter - great, if not, need that too.

A food shop, a water shop (both tied in with previous idea).  

A stone shop (near the Rukkian temple of course!), some more "mundane" clothing merchants, shops to give PC mages the supplies they might need for their subguilds, as well as places to sell the things they create.

A few more tables and someone that sells drinks at that shady area in the plaza.  Having that spot in the plaza be quittable would be a plus but not as necessary.

A rumorboard specific for the elementalist's quarter.


:arrow:  Ideas to boost PC interaction:

The rumorboard would go a long way, as would a place easier to congregate in (i.e. more tables and such at that plaza).  

The rumorboard could have a "what you know" for each temple - notable personas, general relationships between the temples, guidelines, etc.

Immortals could give a little boost to the area by delegating someone to help oversee the Quarter and run some plots - for a totally cliche example perhaps a few Krathi students are persuing some arcane goal and the Drovian temple is out to sabotage them because their success would rupture a delicate experiment of the shadow mages.  Success/Failure of either could depend on some PC efforts and actions.

Stuff that gives gemmed something to strive for, a culture to feel a part of, a base to work off of rather than a mostly empty temple, some NPCs, and a plaza that looks really neat but is rarely visited by other PCs.  Things to keep them entertained, feeling useful, give them the ability to make a living with both mage or mundane abilities without having to greb salt, mine obsidian, or venture much into the "mundane" city.

The occasional mage might still wander out - those who want employment with Oash, those who want to try their luck out the gates, those who need a certain component and have to hire a hunter to go find it.  However, self-sustained would mean far more self-contained.

***

That said:  I don't really want to see gemmed mages turn into another iso-clan.

[Armaddict]

Oh, I wasn't talking about the analogy at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Ohhhh, I see.

Well...this goes back to the other thread (and I don't remember if this particular point ever got addressed or not).  But I thought that to the average commoner, there -would- be some sort of connection between an elementalist and a sorcerer?  The difference you stated that was clear was that sorcerers gather.  But what does gathering look like?  Can you notice it if the sorcerer is careful enough to not leave ash?  Do they all -know- the difference is gathering, or do they just trust Templars who tell them that this guy a sorcerer and needs to be killed?  I dunno...this is actually going to be kind of important in dictating just how segragated elementalists should be.  For me, I always saw it as magick is magick, but -these- magickers are tolerated because they aren't out destroying the world.

[LoD]

The truth is, LoD is wrong.  You don't make a rogue magicker to avoid interaction with the game.  You make a rogue magicker in order to ensure you can interact with the game without someone thinking it's ok to take a crap on you or just kill you outright because you looked in their general direction.

This would be especially true if I'd actually ever said that.

What I've said is that the mage model (someone who CAN, meaning it's possible, never interact with a single person and achieve high levels of power) could use some work.  And I've said that rogue magickers could use more direction and opportunities for non-violent socialization.  It's what Xygax has mentioned and the thrust of my original post.

Nowhere have I claimed that people make rogue magickers so they can avoid interaction with the game.  I've implied that it happens, and someone has admitted to doing it.  In fact, I desire the opposite - for rogue magickers to have better things to do with their time than spend it huddled in a cave or concerned with the comings and goings of mundane travellers, hunters,  and loggers.

-LoD

[ale six]

I think you can also play an independent ranger/warrior/pickpocket/burglar and reach high levels of power in your guild without ever having to interact with another person. It's possible for anybody. The question is why you'd want to, in a roleplaying game, but it isn't just a problem with mages.

[Cale_Knight]

You can do it with other guilds, but being a "powerful pickpocket" and being a "powerful elementalist" are two things so drastically far apart from one another that they aren't analogous at all. Complete apples and oranges.

[Intrepid]

What I've said is that the mage model (someone who CAN, meaning it's possible, never interact with a single person and achieve high levels of power) could use some work.  And I've said that rogue magickers could use more direction and opportunities for non-violent socialization.  It's what Xygax has mentioned and the thrust of my original post.

Nowhere have I claimed that people make rogue magickers so they can avoid interaction with the game.  I've implied that it happens, and someone has admitted to doing it.  In fact, I desire the opposite - for rogue magickers to have better things to do with their time than spend it huddled in a cave or concerned with the comings and goings of mundane travellers, hunters,  and loggers.

Right, right...and yet, although they're supposedly the only ones who can develop powers on their own *cough*RANGER*PSI*anynortherner*cough*, the fact of the matter is, they're also the group most likely to get hunted down anywhere.  So yes, it already balances out due to the inordinate amount of mage-hunters.

Also, these claims you and Pantoufle made are still, in my opinion, erroneous in nature.  Imms have been telling you that everything you've been saying is less severe than you claim, yet this continues to be pressed as an option to a problem that does not exist as you define it.

Muls were altered in karma because they were being played only as escaped slaves.  Muls are no longer being played at all, and I think the game has suffered.  Homogenizing the world because you have a bone to pick with even having see mages in game is another example of how a certain number of loud players are causing the world to shrink and degenerate into iso clans again.  I'm sorry, but iso-clans were never a good idea in this game, and although one of my favorite clans was shut down for its seeming inability to interact with the rest of the gameworld, I maintain that it was a good overall plan for the continued survival of the game.

In the direction you and a few others are trying to push the mud, the elementalist quarter would basically be its own game, with gemmers only coming out to interact with Oash and the templarate, if even that.  The only other option would be either being a rogue mage, in which case your perceived "number of mages" in the north will not shrink, or banding together in another iso clan--this is a supreme waste of player characters that basically is no better than having them on an entirely different server and only succeeds in compartmentalizing a game that has had to dig itself out of that error in the past.

The illusion of how many mages are in game will be broken by placing gemmers as the only playable mages for the majority of the game.  From what I'm seeing, the only thing this will succeed in doing is making them easier for you to identify and kill, and I don't believe that this is something that will improve the game outside of a few happy mage hunters.

If this ridiculous karma idea ever came into being, I would basically upgrade my choices and start apping for sorcs, ungemmed and psis as every other character.  The gemmer situation as it is currently, as well as the manner in which Allanak roleplays its reactions to magickers is, in my opinion, a failed model and I have no reason to interact within it as a known mage.

Basically what you're doing is that you are personally so incensed with the idea of mages being in game that you're willing to ensure the game is altered for your own narrow vision of the world, rather than actually taking into account the world as it is right now and what players have made of it in comparison to what it should be in the documentation--and this is not appropriate.

[Quirk]

I'm pretty certain "defiling" is a word much dirtier to any Zalanthan than "magick". Compare "psychopath" and "organised crime". One is bad news for everyone, no matter who you are, and the other, while still extraordinarily dicey to deal with, is something many people find it possible to work with or around.

Of course most Noble Houses won't hire magickers. To draw together something in the 'Nakki noble docs I mentioned in another thread: one of the main points of the noble classes is to present the citizens with a pleasingly mundane alternative to the templarate. If the nobles start surrounding themselves with magickers, they to some extent forfeit this.

This is where you'd normally get the Quirk Standard Rant On How He Would Love To See A Grittier Zalanthas. Consider it said. The three people in the audience who always cheer enthusiastically can do so if they like, and the rest of you can roll your eyes just for the sake of tradition. But, there are a lot of smaller organisations in game, most virtual, a couple coded, that have every excuse for employing gemmed magickers. Their jobs are harsher, and if it's a choice between having a finger-wiggler do his stuff (preferably out of sight if possible) and all getting home safely, or carrying the boss and four of his best men back in a tasteful sandcloth shroud, many of them are going to swallow their superstitions. The docs certainly suggest they do.

I'm pretty certain I've mentioned this before as well, but back in the dark days when man was barely civilised, and every rock and tree and river contained a potentially malignant spirit, a lot of religion was based around appeasement, trying to bribe the demon to your side. (You could argue that for many religions more sophisticated appeasements are still the order of the day). It's as valid a reaction to a power you fear as running away, or trying to destroy it: buy it off, persuade it to take your side. And gemmed magickers, seemingly an oft-tamed power, are relatively easy to bargain with compared to a hostile spirit.

I would however like to see fewer gemmers in the Commoner's Quarter through having a more congenial Elementalist Quarter. I don't think it's going to necessarily lead to iso-clannish behaviour - at least, not much worse than now, when we appear to have iso-clans that happen to co-habit the same space. I think having gemmers be less frequently seen and more frequently hired for jobs would go a long way toward making gemmer-mundane relations more enjoyable for everyone.