Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[LoD]

I've moved the bulk of this post from another thread, which began as a discussion on how mundane people should more appropriately demonstrate fear of the "magicker" with a few suggestions.  My response began with a quote from Pantoufle:

I see more "issues" with the magicker population, itself, than with the "mundane" PCs who respond to magickers.

Firstly, there are simply way too many magickers in the game. I'm guilty of this, having played a long stream of spellcasting characters, myself, but the fact remains: there are just too many.

I agree completely. There is a notion in the documentation that magickers are this rare and mysterious breed capable of wielding immense power that warrants respect and fear. This fear is supposedly based on two things; that the general populace knows very little of them for lack of interaction/experience, and that magickers wield freakish levels of power.

As Pantoufle has mentioned, one of the problems is that they are not rare.

Were they ever rare? No. The problem is that IC events have completely changed the role of the magicker in the gameworld (in my opinion, for the worse) which has subsequently affected class development, world views, and this very discussion today. Here is how that happened:

A terrifying and presumably magickal cataclysm strikes the city-state of Tuluk, leaving it to be nothing more than a pile of rubble and ruins. Over seventy thousand people are killed that day in what has since come to be known as the Fall of Tuluk. During the chaos, Precentor Kul manages to overthrow Precentor Isar and gains control over what little remains.

Before the Cataclysm, magickers had a viable role in the southlands, middle, and northlands.  They weren't hunted down like dogs outside the city walls.  The weren't chased with torches and pitchforks or called abominations.  They had the opportunity to live as men and women using their skills to operate as a peaceful and productive, if potentially dangerous, part of society.  The only magickers that were hunted down and killed were sorcerers and raiding magickers, who were relatively rare because each city-state had a wealth of elementalists in their emply to help identify and deal with such magickal threats.

Enter the Cataclysm

Now magickers have been ousted from the northlands. Hated and feared, selecting anything other than a southern-based magicker now comes with a giant neon sign above their head that reads, "Dangerous critter, kill on sight." This began a horrible cycle of events, both IC and OOC:

:arrow: The Cataclysm teaches northerners that "magick is bad, mmkay?"  Norrthern players begin hunting magickers, killing them on sight.

:arrow: No longer able to enjoy relative peace while they gain enough proficiency to protect themselves from mundane threats, the elementalist guilds are reworked to be given more useful spells earlier and faster progression through the tree.

:arrow: Those players choosing to create northern magickers were now predators or prey, or both. They no longer had a peaceful role to assume within the northern city-state, but were forced instead of be "on the run" and acknowledge that an entire civilization would likely only ever consider them an abomination to be executed as soon as possible.

:arrow: Magickers are pushed out of Tuluk and forced to find locations in which they can survive and practice their craft. These places happen to be the very same places frequented by isolated desert elf and nomadic human tribes, forcing these players to interact with these new magickal threats that normally were not commonly found.

:arrow: Now we have every magicker (not just sorcerers and magickers choosing to raid) running around the northern wilderness trying desperately (or not so desperately) to survive. There are few mundane organizations with which they can interact because most of them consider magickers highly dangerous and will kill them on sight.

This IC event has forever changed the role of the magicker in game. Once a working part of society, in which they could add to the story in a multitude of peaceful and useful ways, they have become a glass cannon aimed squarely at anyone that invades the spaces they've invaded. Magicker numbers seem higher, not because they're more of them, but because the most common interaction is likely a great display of their power. Magickers who would have otherwise been content to create food, water, mounts, and aid a given Merchant House in their tasks are now forced to defend themselves with violent magick. Magick with which the average mundane character cannot compete.

This change in interaction has also changed some perceptions. Some mundane characters, espcially tribals, who used to only have to deal with a few rare magickal threats are now forced to deal with them almost daily. What used to be a rare and mysterious creature has now become a prevalent and dangerous predator to specific (but large) areas of the game.

The influx of these magickal beings fighting for survival causes other groups to engage and, eventually, kill them. Immortals then feel obligated to give magickers even more teeth so that people are appropriately "afraid" of them, but that only furthers the divide of power and makes the non-magickal player feel like an inconsequential and ineffective part of "Magickgeddon."

I know that I've felt this way ever since independant magickers had no viable role in the northlands. And I know others have too. There is no proposed solution, because IC events are IC events, but are there suggestions for a way to allow northern magickers a role other than predator/prey?  I think having so large a group of people considered "hated and dangerous" by so many greatly limits the potential not only of their characters, but of the game itself.

-LoD

[Lavalamps]

Well, I can't really offer a solution, because I personally like the way magickers have to hide in the north..
But basically, I think northerners should be a lot more AFRAID of magickers, with less of an instinct to kill and more of an instinct to run.
Furthermore, I don't think magick is THAT common in the north--- and it's certainly not a daily occurence, as you have stated, LoD.

[Malken]

I always compare Allanak's army vs Tuluk's army to one having nuclear weapons vs the other still fighting with cavalry and cannons.

Sure, you tried building a nuclear facility once in your city and it blew up in your face, but your enemy is still building nuclear weapons ready to be used against you each time you enter a military conflict against it. Wouldn't you try to at least give it another go, calculated risk and all? Who cares if it blows up in your face again and creates casualties. As long as it doesn't hurt you and your entourage.

Am I making any sense?

[Lavalamps]

Yes, you're making sense, Malken, and it's a good point..

But magickers blew up half the city.
That's pretty intense.


EDIT: Or a quarter of the city. Either way. That's a lot.

[Delirium]

Aheh.. don't assume Tuluk doesn't have teeth.

If it isn't sheltering mages anymore.. I leave it to you to ponder how they're making up for the lack of "nuclear" power.

But do that on your own time, not in this thread.

As for LOD's post, for once I am in general agreement.  Conflict and harshness is nice, but the mage role requires someone to be willing to enter a very daunting, and sometimes stressful task of never being able to let their guard down, ever, if they want to survive.  Due to the balance and nature of 'power' in Armageddon, however, I don't think this is likely to change any time soon.  Magick IS power, and those with the power will fight to ensure that they are supreme and the others are kept down.  Propaganda against those wielding that power is one very efficient weapon to use in that fight.


The scruffy haired, slinky human wanders off, humming:

You remind me of the babe! - What babe?
The babe with the power! - What power?
The power of voodoo!  - Who do?
You do! - Do what?
You remind me of the babe!

[Spoon]

Yeah, plus in Armageddon, you can shoot down a nuclear weapon with a cannon. Or maybe even a horse.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

The whole Roleplaying Extreme Fear of magickers problem goes both ways. The main reason most of my characters arent as deathly affraid of magickers as they probably should be...Is because if they were I would spend all of my time roleplaying being scared.

There are just too many magickers at any given time in the game world. I play mainly just rangers and almost every time I go hunting I see two or three of them loping and floating about the desert...For playability reasons I cant rp being scared of them because if I did I would have to do the same RP scene three times every time I left the gates.

My favorite part is when they want to do the whole..."IR HIDDEN AND UBER POWERFUL, HEAR MY VOICE AND TREMBLE"...what they fail to realize is that you have already played out this scene 30 other times with the same character in the past RL month and basically all it draws from you now is a yawn and some ooc annoyance.

[Gaare]

I agree the main reason is about having too many magickers in game.

I am in favour of some way of reducing the number of magickers. I can not think of any good solution really.. Maybe making all magickers accepted by special app.? I mean let's say there are three magicker IMMs, and give five magickers to each of them. Nothing more.. or so... or putting some kind of limit for active magicker PCs on Zalanthas.  :?

[Yokunama]

The general populace does not know what a magicker is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other negative occurence.

Who, in the Tuluki society, are the ones that are magicker literate?

It seems to me that EVERY single PC from the north (Tuluk) seems to know what a magicker is.

[Bebop]

I definitely don't think magickers should be special apped.  I love playing a magicker.  And I feel I have that choice too.

I also don't think the way magickers branching has anything to do with the problem.  I'm not exactly sure what people are saying the problem is here?  That there are too many magickers?

Guess what, the desert is a dangerous place.  And if you are not in the city expect to see large bugs, dangerous beasts, wonders, and dangers - some of which include magickers.  The places outside the gates can't be policed all of the time, and if that means magickers running rampant, well that what is what it means.

[Pantoufle]

As I understand it, spellcasters were "buffed up" so as to counter two things: 1) the the fact that many players aren't RPing being afraid of magick: with magickers suddenly able to do nastier things, players will hopefully be more inclined to truly be afraid.  And 2) they were too easily killed just for sheathing a sword in order to cast.  A man who can kill you alive with flames in the blink of an eye could also die in the blink of an eye, himself, by any warrior who knew how to take advantage of the mage's CODED (not necessarily realistic) weaknesses.  All of this would be fine and dandy if it weren't for the population problem.

Again, I wholly admit I've played an obscene amount of spellcasters.  Currently I'm not and I wish to shy away from them for a good long while.  Once Upon a Time I created an elementalist who was making a journey from Tuluk to Allanak.  On his way he encountered 4 PCs in the wilderness and I shit you not, they were all magickers.  Every single one was a magicker, none of them were affiliated (to my knowledge) with the other.  It was like this: North Road, first bend, there's a man standing there.  We talk, it turns out he's a magicker.  We finally part and I continue my journey.  Tablelands somewhere, I stop to slurp at some muddy water and along comes a d-elf who -- can you believe it -- is a magicker.  Then I near Luir's and stumble upon yet another magicker.  As I near Allanak, some time later, suddenly a magicker is attacking me!  Let's not forget that I was also a magicker.  Are you seeing a trend here?  Incidentally, during my character's trek, these were the ONLY people he encountered.  At all.

Now maybe it was just a strange cooincidence.  Maybe at the time there were only 5 magickers in existence and I just so happened to meet the only other 4 there were.  But I doubt it.  Granted, this was during offpeak hours and for offpeak players, magickers can, admittedly, make a good choice for playability reasons.  Maybe if the staff took a statistic to see how many magickers currently compare to non-magickers we'd find the number not as big as Mr. Pantoufle is supposing.  I'd sure love for that to be the case and to be proven wrong.  I really would.

So what is the solution?  This board has long ago agreed that putting a maximum on the number of a certain guild is not a good idea.  It's also not a good idea to make karma stricter.  Hell, let players play a magicker, just make it god awful difficult for them!  That way, only the truly sinister and vile (should-be-hated) magickers thrive.

Also, the game needs to provide a greater insentive for being a non-magicker than it does for being a magicker.  With the opportunity to zip around the world unseen at the blink of an eye, why would I ever want to play anything BUT a whiran!?!  "Mundane" guilds need their props; the name mundane, alone, is altogether uninviting.  The problem is there are a lot of spells which allow casters to do things non-spellcasters cannot but, realistically, they could.  For example, there is no code for me to drop a ladder down a climb-check room and walk it without need for the climb skill.  A whiran can do this, I cannot.  A fire mage can actually burn things with the code whereas I cannot, since there is no code to use a torch for burning/attacking with.  Only those who can cast blindness can make it so I can't see, there is no code to kick sand in your eyes or tie a blindfold around your face.  It seems like a vast overhaul but the idea here is that SOMEHOW "mundane" guilds should be more inviting to players than magick ones.

The worst part is that Zalanthas is SUPPOSED to be a world low in magick, but the playerbase misrepresents this, as LoD has pointed out.

[Intrepid]

I agree somewhat with what LoD has said, but a few points here:

:arrow:  Magicker players are forced to rely on magick skills.  Some of the spells back in the day were made to accompany specific skills, and if the mage did not happen to pick the "correct" subclass, they had a useless spell.  Some of these improvements and "teeth" have been corrections to spells to make them usable and practical, since a mage should be reliant on these powers; otherwise, why have them?

:arrow:  Tuluk had a history of magicker paranoia prior to its Cataclysm.  Although you could be a magicker in public, even then, the Tulukis were pushing magickers too far in a societal situation with the threat of lynching.  Eventually, a group of powerful mages pushed back.  Surprise, surprise, surprise.  I would like to add that this was an entirely pc-driven plot back in the day, and one that should serve as a reminder to everyone of the ability of the playerbase to alter the gameworld--it's not as stagnant as some players think.

:arrow:  The equation LoD provides, while I consider it exaggerated (I don't believe in the "daily basis"), there was a clan that helped lessen the number of magickers seen in the game that is no longer active.  I think the game could really benefit in its return, quite frankly.

:arrow:  Without going into too much detail, there are tribes and clans across the Known World.  Those groups are not killing magickers because they're magickers, they're killing intruders on their turf.  There is a big difference there.

I don't think the future of magickers is as bleak as everyone thinks.  I do, however, worry for the future of mundanes, since we're about due for another Cataclysm.  :twisted:

[Bebop]

Also, the game needs to provide a greater insentive for being a non-magicker than it does for being a magicker.  With the opportunity to zip around the world unseen at the blink of an eye, why would I ever want to play anything BUT a whiran!?!  "Mundane" guilds need their props; the name mundane, alone, is altogether uninviting.  The problem is there are a lot of spells which allow casters to do things non-spellcasters cannot but, realistically, they could.  For example, there is no code for me to drop a ladder down a climb-check room and walk it without need for the climb skill.  A whiran can do this, I cannot.  A fire mage can actually burn things with the code whereas I cannot, since there is no code to use a torch for burning/attacking with.  Only those who can cast blindness can make it so I can't see, there is no code to kick sand in your eyes or tie a blindfold around your face.  It seems like a vast overhaul but the idea here is that SOMEHOW "mundane" guilds should be more inviting to players than magick ones.

The worst part is that Zalanthas is SUPPOSED to be a world low in magick, but the playerbase misrepresents this, as LoD has pointed out.

I think you make some good points, but I really like playing mundane characters.  So do alot of people even though they have magicker karma.  This is a game, sometimes the playerbase is not going  to represent the rarity of magickers.  But also would most NPCs be traveling from Allanak to the Tablelands to Tuluk in ONE day?  No - they would not.  I'm not saying you did anything wrong, because the game allows you to get from point A to point B that fast because this IS a game.  We can't be taking RL days to get to places.  That's not feesable.  My point is this:  PCs do not always represent common place NPCs.  You may say magickers should have been rarer in the scenario because it's says in the docs they are rare.  But it also says in the docs that NPCs usually don't leave, and if they travel it takes days.  PCs don't accurately represent the docs entirely because we play the exceptions from NPCs.  Instead of blaming it on the fact that there are "to many magickers" I would just say accept that this is a game and that's how it is.  

It doesn't mean that because there are a good portion of PC magickers you should act any differently when encountering one, they are still a magicker.

[jhunter]

I disagree with those that say there are too many magickers in game. It comes and goes like any other pc type. Also, the only times I've frequently run into magickers is when I was either: a) Playing one myself. or: b) Playing in the southlands. This seems just fine to me.

I currently like the way things are going with the magickers themselves. For the most part I am disgusted with the all-too-common: "I'm attacking the mage out of fear, that's how my pc expresses their fear of magick."

I think this should be far less common and the more common reaction should be: "MAGICK! Fuck, I'm not getting the skin peeled from my bones or my scrotum turned inside out! I'm outta here!" "When I get back to the city, I'll get a mob together and we'll come back and destroy the thing. I'm sure as fucked not going to risk my neck trying to do it ALONE." (Or let the city deal with the dangerous thing.)

[amoeba]

Now maybe it was just a strange cooincidence.  Maybe at the time there were only 5 magickers in existence and I just so happened to meet the only other 4 there were.  But I doubt it.  Granted, this was during offpeak hours and for offpeak players, magickers can, admittedly, make a good choice for playability reasons.  Maybe if the staff took a statistic to see how many magickers currently compare to non-magickers we'd find the number not as big as Mr. Pantoufle is supposing.  I'd sure love for that to be the case and to be proven wrong.  I really would.

The problem I have with this is not that you encountered 4 magickers, but rather that you encountered 4 -obvious- magickers.  Discretion people, discretion.

[Intrepid]

In regards to magickers, Morgenes already stated in recent months that the overall population of magickers was 1 in 10 logged in during peak.  If that is the status quo for affairs, then Pantoufle's incident is an isolated coincidence.

[LoD]

In regards to magickers, Morgenes already stated in recent months that the overall population of magickers was 1 in 10 logged in during peak.

It's not about NUMBERS, it's about DISTRIBUTION.

Instead of blaming it on the fact that there are "to many magickers" I would just say accept that this is a game and that's how it is.  

The issue is that the game "changed" and not all of us are passive about that change being made.  While there was tension between magickal and non-magickal folk in Old Tuluk, they were tolerated and allowed to have lives, relationships, careers, social interaction, and homes.  The city-state's acceptence helped to control a lot of that potential power by providing an environment out of which non-violent and positive opportunities could arise.

It's like having an ant farm with 100 ants.  You may see an occasional ant outside of the farm, but for the most part they are content and living safely within the confines of the farm.  Away from your food.  Away from your clothes.  Away from your walls.  If someone says to you, "Do you have an ant problem?"  You'd problem tell them that you see them occasionally, but it's nothing you can't tolerate.

Then some idiot destroys the ant farm.  The number of ants hasn't increased.  It's exactly the same as it ever was, but DAMN if it doesn't seem like everywhere I look -- there's an ant somewhere I wasn't expecting to see it.  Crawling on my food.  Crawling on my clothes.  Crawling on my wall.

It's the same with magickers.  There weren't any more, or any less, of them in years past -- but they had a major environment completely removed which used to provide a place to congregate, practice, eat, sleep, breed, etc...  And now that the environment is gone, many people are left saying,

"HELL YES I GOT AN ANT PROBLEM!"

-LoD

[Halaster]

Nusku did some number watching lately, and had a few observations.

When the player count went over 20, the magicker/psi population was typically around 20% of the PC population (anything less than 20 players is too small to sample).  With numbers averaging about 60 players online during prime time, that means 48 were "mundane" and 12 were some type of magicker/psi.

Another point to consider is that anytime a guild gets some loving, there is always a sudden increase in people playing them as the playerbase gets curious what is new, what was changed.  It's no secret that there's been a focus on the magick system over the past year or two, and so people are playing them more to see what's new and what's going on.  I know this is true because people have told me, "I'm going to play a Rukkian next so I can see what these new spells are".

Another point to consider is that as time moves forward there are more and more people with more and more karms.  The percentage of people with 2+ karma is higher today that what it was 5 years ago.  Because of that, you see a lot more magickers - but eventually the people who are just getting to play them will stop and go back to rangers.  Did you know that Nusku also noticed, in the numbers, that there was one point where we had 85% rangers?

I agree, there are a rather large amount of magickers lately (elementalists mostly), but with anything, I believe it's a cycle that will correct itself after a while.

[LoD]

Nusku did some number watching lately, and had a few observations.

When the player count went over 20, the magicker/psi population was typically around 20% of the PC population (anything less than 20 players is too small to sample).  With numbers averaging about 60 players online during prime time, that means 48 were "mundane" and 12 were some type of magicker/psi.

It would be interesting to link distribution with the numbers.  Are those 12 divided evenly (i.e. 4 in Allanak, 4 in Tablelands, 4 in Grasslands).  The point of my post was not about the number or ration of magickers to mundane characters, but the density of magickers to mundanes in certain areas of the north.

Encountering four magickers in Allanak is a drop in the bucket compared to the population numbers of the city-state, whereas four magickers running around the tablelands is a much denser distribution.  I'd be interested in how those numbers played out.

-LoD

[moab]

As  somone who loves magickers and often plays them, i think it would be great to remove them all (except sorcerers) from the game and leave the sorcs as special app.

This would be good because the world would be as gritty and low-fantasy as it can get - and you would crap your pants when you met a magicker.

[Yokunama]

I agree, there are a rather large amount of magickers lately (elementalists mostly), but with anything, I believe it's a cycle that will correct itself after a while.

*chuckle*
Like the too many half-elves, too many d-elves, and too many ranger cycles.

[Halaster]

It would be interesting to link distribution with the numbers.  Are those 12 divided evenly (i.e. 4 in Allanak, 4 in Tablelands, 4 in Grasslands).
-LoD

I can't really say because that'd actually give some things away, but, no, it is not evenly distributed.  Some areas have larger amounts than others.

[Intrepid]

As  somone who loves magickers and often plays them, i think it would be great to remove them all (except sorcerers) from the game and leave the sorcs as special app.

This would be good because the world would be as gritty and low-fantasy as it can get - and you would crap your pants when you met a magicker.

I hope this never happens.

[jhunter]

As  somone who loves magickers and often plays them, i think it would be great to remove them all (except sorcerers) from the game and leave the sorcs as special app.

This would be good because the world would be as gritty and low-fantasy as it can get - and you would crap your pants when you met a magicker.

I hope this never happens.

Agreed. It took me a long time before I tried it and enjoyed the role. Now, I am confident I can create on that I will enjoy playing. I still try to keep it spread out a little bit though.

[Lavalamps]

As  somone who loves magickers and often plays them, i think it would be great to remove them all (except sorcerers) from the game and leave the sorcs as special app.

This would be good because the world would be as gritty and low-fantasy as it can get - and you would crap your pants when you met a magicker.

I hope this never happens.

I hope it never happens, too.
I'd hate to never get a chance to play a magicker.