Combat skill limitations

[Aldiel]

We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them.  My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different.  People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.

I like this change because it gives uniformity to fighting.  One of the biggest ishues about playing a war is how often can I use bash, kick, disarm?  This is a great change, I only wish fighting lost stamina too.

[Yokunama]

I notice noone is actually refuting any of my particular points or giving me -any- sort of logical reasoning as to -why- no other guild's stamina should be affected by combat.

Well, I don't see any other guild that has extra abilities that they can use within combat.  Assassins have an opener that creates a huge lag delay (first there is the approach and then the combat delay after which is longer than kill's) so I feel that is acceptable.  Should backstab take additional stamina?  Hmm... possibly it should take into consideration the amount of stamina it would take to walk across the room.

So, if you backstab in the street, it would take no stamina.  If you backstab in the wilderness it would take anywhere between 3-8 stamina.

But what other in combat abilities are there?  Casting spells?  Hmm... maybe a stamina reduction for each spell cast in combat.  I think that would be reasonable as well to be honest.  It takes some extra concentration to pull off a spell while fighting it out.

So what other in combat abilities are there?  We have kick, bash, disarm, spell casting, and... umm... nothing else?  Maybe I'm blanking here.  I can't think of any other in combat ability.

I would therefore suggest that no one is refuting your point because there aren't any other skills that people can think of where this applies in the same manner.

I'd like to add something to your post, Marko.

This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.

With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.

The only problem that people face is the fact that they can not freely use these moves continously. This isn't the way the skills are suppose to be used. Thus, the skill had an penalty attached to it to make players think about using those skills, before they use them in combat.

It really does add a strategic feel to combat.

[spawnloser]

Let me guess, jhunter, your favorite guild is warrior?

Seriously, they're not the only people affected.  I played a merchant/thug that used combat skills because he had them.  I've played a ranger/thug before too.  Subguilds get some of these combat skills that come with stamina loss, and since the stamina loss goes down as you get better, and subguild caps are lower, those that get them as subguild skills are even MORE affected than warriors.

Warriors haven't been nerfed...all that extra effort they put into killing, whirling about and swinging all parts of their body willy nilly, is finally being represented.  Mind that rangers are basically a 'wilderness guild' while warriors are a 'city guild.'  General stamina loss in combat would be a bad thing, as you're going to see characters die more and more...sooner and sooner...noober and noober.  If you want it, though...it had better be somethign representative.  1 point of stamina per attack made seems fair...so warriors, those bad asses that are dual wielding and attacking faster than I could ever hope to?  Yeah, you'll get tired EVEN faster.  I don't think you want that.

[Yokunama]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18475

Raesanos, I think the title of the linked post needs to be edited, because it isn't a penalty that only the warrior guild obtains. Hopefully, it'd help people see that and stop complaining about a certain guild being at a disadvantage.

[Cale_Knight]

This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.

With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.

Warriors are indeed the only class who can disarm or bash.

That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.

[spawnloser]

Not having been around nearly as long as some, Cale Knight...your example there of broad changes to spellcasting?  Yeah, it's happened before in ways that hurt magickers a lot.  Suck it up.  Those of us that have played both and will continue to play both will learn to play in a way that doesn't hurt us too badly.

[Yokunama]

This is NOT a guild penalty it is a penalty that targets 'special combat abilites'.

With that said, warriors are not the only ones with the ability to kick, disarm, or bash, but they are the only ones that can make good use of the skill.

Warriors are indeed the only class who can disarm or bash.

That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.

That doesn't leave out kick. So, warriors are not the only ones suffering. Also, there are ways people can obtain the bash and disarm skills without having the warrior class. :wink:

[Cale_Knight]

Not having been around nearly as long as some, Cale Knight...your example there of broad changes to spellcasting?  Yeah, it's happened before in ways that hurt magickers a lot.  Suck it up.

Uh... that's nice and all, but it had nothing to do with the point I made. Absolutely nothing.

[spawnloser]

Uh... that's nice and all, but it had nothing to do with the point I made. Absolutely nothing.

Really?

That would be like saying a new, broad-reaching penalty to spellcasting isn't a magicker guild penalty.

I disagree.  I was addressing exactly what I intended to address.

Sometimes things change.  Roll with the punches, learn to adapt as people have in the past.  I think THIS change will benefit the mud MORE than the changes to spellcasting that have taken place may have.

[skeetdaddle]

Is it a realistic addition?

Yes.

Do I like it?

No.

Personally I think this is one of those changes that you either have to have affect across the board (any and every fight and every single special little nifty maneuver saps stamina) or not at all.

This will deter me from playing a warrior in the future. I would probably play a ranger instead and just try to get them all badass since they can become pretty good fighters and also get lots of nifty skills.

[LoD]

It appears that the main arguement for the stamina drain penalty on physical skills is the result of a desire on the part of the Imm Staff for both increased realism and playability.

The increased realism comes from the belief that any of these hard coded skill actions taken during combat would fatigue someone in real life, and therefore should fatigue someone in the game.  The playability issue allows for there to be a limit to how many times someone will be able to shoot a bow, kick/disarm/bash an opponent, backstab, throw a knife, etc...

I have absolutely no problem with a penalty, cooldown or combination thereof being added into the game.  I don't really agree or understand why that limiting attribute must be linked to a character's ability to move in game rather than a newly formed "melee" attribute more similar to mana.  All the elementalists instantly cry 'mana' when people throw out the arguement that mage classes don't have a movement penalty for using their skills.  Is casting not physical exhausting?  Drawing forth the elements from a plane of fire is less tiring than throwing a kick at somebody?  I don't necessarily agree.

Fatigue

I would rather the Imms have implemented a new attribute that effectively becomes the melee classes' equivalent of mana, let's call it Fatigue.  Allow skills to take less fatigue at higher skill levels similar to a mage's rise in "power levels" for their spells.  Binding the ability to use coded abilities to an attribute like stamina poses questions for me, and perhaps the Imm Staff that have thought this through can comment:

:arrow: Why select a sytem that further favors certain races?

Dwarves, Half-Giants and Muls are already a hardier race than most of the other choices, and this change will make them even more attractive as a selection for the number crunchers, and there will always be more than a few because coded success and survival will be more dependant on these factors than mages, merchants, thieves, etc...

:arrow: Why select a system that seems to hinder certain cultures?

Desert elves don't have the luxury of using a mount while running through the desert, yet they are touted as being quite able and proud of that fact.  Seeing a system adopt a penalty to something that would limit their ability more than most because of the environment seems flawed.  Why would you not prefer to limit all melee guilds in the same capacity regardless of race and culture?  Why would you not want to make a desert elf in the sands, half-giant and human in the city all be able to perform equally as well/poorly in their preferred environment?

It seems to me that the only way to make this even across races and cultures is to create an attribute that is independant of the two and used specifically to control and limit the excess use of one's physical skills.

:arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.

Anyone who has actually fought, whether it be training or real fighting can attest that being able to keep up a high level of physical activity (i.e. fighting) is much more difficult than placing one foot in front of the other.  I can fight to the point of exhaustion, where I can barely lift my arms to defend myself, but could still probably walk several miles.  My guess is that the people making these changes haven't ever had the opportunity to discover the difference.

It is my opinion that using stamina as the penalizing factor in these changes is a clunky fix.  Sort of like using gum to adhere two pieces because you didn't have any glue handy.  Yes, it works.  Yes, it accomplishes an end result that is acceptable, but it's probably not the best or most appropriate change to make to achieve the goals in mind.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

My only complaint with the fatigue idea is that I don't want to have to add anything to my prompt.

That aside, it's a pretty rad idea.

[moab]

LoD>

Are you suggesting a seperate stat (say "Combat Moves Stat") that will allow a certain number of combat moves per tick rather than basing it all off stamina?  Essentially two seperate stamina scores?

If so, I find this an interesting idea.  If not, then I'm suggesting it.

:-D

[Morgenes]

The meter is 'Stamina' not movement.  There is coded precedent where doing taxing physical things have taken stamina points, and thats why we went with it.

And for what it's worth, I've announced that the stamina drain has been added to sap, backstab and subdue.  Future changes will be evaluated based on the outcome of this round of testing.

[jhunter]

It is my opinion that using stamina as the penalizing factor in these changes is a clunky fix. Sort of like using gum to adhere two pieces because you didn't have any glue handy. Yes, it works. Yes, it accomplishes an end result that is acceptable, but it's probably not the best or most appropriate change to make to achieve the goals in mind.

You're damned right. I'd rather see something put in more like you are saying than see this poorly chosen solution to a very -minor- issue. This fix is poor game design IMO. It's the first time -anything- has been done that I think is an absolutely horrible idea from the staff's end.

Beings on Zalanthas have attributes that help determine how they interact with the world, for the -most- part only two types are being affected in such a way as to make one of those attributes -far- more important to them than any other unrealistically.
D-elf warriors are the ones being most severely hit by this to it being very detrimental to them IMO. I'm not saying that warriors have been hit to the point where they are unplayable but I think there were other possible solutions that would've been much better design than this current fix.
I don't see a stun penalty being added to use of the haggle skill, crafting skills, magick, pick, steal...etc....to help keep people from spamming those and -not- added to the combat skills effected by stamina drain. Why not? It would be similar to the effects of mental stress on people doing such activities so it would be realistic. (This is just the closest example I could think of.)

I don't think it's right to give certain groups a double-hit on one statistic and not give the same double-hit on a statistic to others. Movement points now count for much more on a warrior pc than any other.

[LoD]

LoD>
Are you suggesting a seperate stat (say "Combat Moves Stat") that will allow a certain number of combat moves per tick rather than basing it all off stamina?  Essentially two seperate stamina scores?

Yes, the creation of a new stat.  The easiest thing to do would be to keep stamina the same and create a new attribute that simply represented the ability to move.  The other solution would be to limit stamina's effect on one's ability to move.  The Imm Staff may feel that the two are interchangeable, though I think "realism" would tell a different story.

Others have suggsted something similiar in allowing characters to choose a rate of travel (i.e. crawl, walk, march, sprint) and have each level require a corresponding amount of stamina.

Crawl/Trudge= 0,  Walk= 3, Run = 7

Allow someone to Crawl/Trudge without any movement loss at all with appropriate messages and time delays "before" the move is made.  Walk and Run would operate normally.  This would perhaps remove some of the sting from combat subtracting stamina if one was still able to move, albeit slowly, to a water source, shelter, gates, etc...

The meter is 'Stamina' not movement. There is coded precedent where doing taxing physical things have taken stamina points, and thats why we went with it.

I understand why you would chose stamina, especially considering that to do otherwise would mean a lot more coding.  And ultimately it may not cause such a problem as people, perhaps myself included, seem to suggest.  Perhaps a subtle change to the movement code with regards to stamina would also be in order.

I suppose my point is directed most closely toward those who claim there is some kind of "realism" factor in this change, when it is not necessarily realistic to link the ability to kick/bash/disarm/subdue with someone's ability to walk.  Armies have fought in the past for many years and a soldiers' level of endurance was such that it could withstand a skirmish/fight followed directly by a long march.  I might not be able to swing across a set of monkey bars, or haul my body weight out of some water, but I'm fairly certain that I could push myself to walk.

It just seems that there is a better solution waiting in the wings to achieve what you want; increased playability (less spamming) and more realism (fatigue from physical skill use).

-LoD

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

:arrow: Why select a sytem that further favors certain races?

Dwarves, Half-Giants and Muls are already a hardier race than most of the other choices, and this change will make them even more attractive as a selection for the number crunchers, and there will always be more than a few because coded success and survival will be more dependant on these factors than mages, merchants, thieves, etc...

LoD, I've never had a dwarf or mul with more 'movement points' than my humans. In fact, my humans always seem to have had more. Since we'll be using those 'movement points' up, I really think humans and half-elves would have the advantage there.

:arrow: Why select a system that seems to hinder certain cultures?

Desert elves don't have the luxury of using a mount while running through the desert, yet they are touted as being quite able and proud of that fact.  Seeing a system adopt a penalty to something that would limit their ability more than most because of the environment seems flawed.  Why would you not prefer to limit all melee guilds in the same capacity regardless of race and culture?  Why would you not want to make a desert elf in the sands, half-giant and human in the city all be able to perform equally as well/poorly in their preferred environment?

I'd campaign for D-elf's Stamina to return to its old levels.

:arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.

Anyone who has actually fought, whether it be training or real fighting can attest that being able to keep up a high level of physical activity (i.e. fighting) is much more difficult than placing one foot in front of the other.  I can fight to the point of exhaustion, where I can barely lift my arms to defend myself, but could still probably walk several miles.  My guess is that the people making these changes haven't ever had the opportunity to discover the difference.

Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly. I'll concede the point of walking being easier, but with a pack on your back? With swords dangling all off of you? Armor? Nah. And truthfully, your walk lag should be even slower[/b] than it is now, when you're tired.

Any fatigue should unquestionably be attached to lose of Stamina.


Boy, I hate disagreeing with people I respect.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Battles on Armageddon are nothing like real life battles. Real life battles are over and done with by the time we get to round six. Zalanthian battles are made to wear you out.

[jhunter]

Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly.

I'll have to agree with his line of defense -from- personal experience. I've worked twelve hour days in a desert doing construction work and some days I had to take a few mile walk home. I didn't have to stop -and- I smoke.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hhhmmm. Maybe I'm just a bitch.

Heh.

[jhunter]

Hhhmmm. Maybe I'm just a bitch.

Heh.

Naw, you're not a bitch Vemonz...kind of a dirty 'rinth whore...but not a bitch. You're alright man.  

[LoD]

:arrow: Moving and fighting are much different.

Man, I seriously disagree with your entire line of defense here. I disagree from pretty much personal experience. I have worked myself until my arms and legs are sore as hell, then had to walk home because I had no car. I made it about half-a-mile and sat down and didn't get back up for a good while, because my legs were wobbly. I'll concede the point of walking being easier, but with a pack on your back? With swords dangling all off of you? Armor? Nah. And truthfully, your walk lag should be even slower[/b] than it is now, when you're tired.

Any fatigue should unquestionably be attached to lose of Stamina.

If that were the case, then every military campaign ever designed before the invention of the car likely would've failed miserably.  There is a link between fatigue and combat effectiveness in RL and now in game.  My contention is not that such a link doesn't exist, but that the attribute "stamina" isn't designed well enough to shoulder the burden of governing every type of physical activity in the game.

I'm sure anyone in the armed forces would be able to comment on being made to run/march (with gear) after grueling levels of physical exercise to the point where movement is almost subconscious.  Zalanthan people that have adopted the profession of a warrior will have a much higher level of physical fitness than any of us will ever dream of having, which is why I have the difficulty accepting stamina as a catch-all attribute that gauges a life-or-death battle and walking along a road by the same meter.

I honestly don't think this new change will make life that much harder for anyone besides the desert elves, but that doesn't mean there aren't better solution to be discussed.

-LoD

[Agent_137]

i haven't caught up on this thread, but it wouldn't hurt to split "stamina" into "fatigue" and "movement" points if we're going to continue down this path of "stamina hits for most commands."

[Morgenes]

i haven't caught up on this thread, but it wouldn't hurt to split "stamina" into "fatigue" and "movement" points if we're going to continue down this path of "stamina hits for most commands."

I'll say this one more time, and then I'm done with this.  Stamina is your level of physical exhaustion.  We are not adding a separate movement points counter, or a separate combat point counter.  Stamina is what we've got, and that's what we're going to use.

Feel free to argue to you're blue in the face about this, however unless there's a major turnover in the staff of the game, we will not be implementing this idea.

[jhunter]

Then I believe that if more things are going to be taking from stamina, the bar needs to be raised for the amount of stamina things get. The average stamina pts needs to be higher then IMO. You keep adding more and more things taking out of stamina without raising the bar, since originally all that was taken out of it was movement, it's going to become a real problem.

As already starting to be displayed by the huge hinderance I see it being to a d-elf warrior. The path that we're going down is the path to doom if no other changes are made to correct it before it gets worse.