Combat skill limitations

[jhunter]

I personally think this topic is silly, it's just realistic to lose stamina! Warrior's still have the advantage over close combat...

Ok, I know Warrior's are not the best combat class. And they shouldn't be! there is three non karma classes that can kill easily, (one of which has other skills, the three are)

1. Assassin = sneaky combat, and ranged combat
2. Ranger = ranged combat, and some close combat
3. Warrior = close combat, and some ranged

Ok, warriors are not the best! nor are they ment to be. It barely makes a difference anyway. I mean, how many times do you need to disarm someone knocking their weapon to the east? how many times would you need to knock someone to the ground? only once every now and again.
Yay for stamina loss! They still have the greatest advantage over close combat. How important are bash, kick, and disarm anyway?


I don't think Warrior's are ment to have the best combative skills. They shouldn't anyway... 'cause otherwise it would be unbalanced. They have the best close combat skills... that's enough for me.

It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.

[Ritley]

It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.

They don't lose stamina while fighting, just using their special skills. Like I said before, even without their special skills, they are still the ultimate master of melee. A master warrior could liturally fight armies in melee. Hold off two half giant rangers. That's without using their "special skills" even if those half giants could beat the warrior from a distance. Every guild has different strengths and weakness', they balanced warriors with this penalty. Glad they have.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.

The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.

Well I'm a retarded, I never bothered to read the whole list of what was offered.

I hope this isn't a smartass comment, because my statement was in no way meant to be smartass. Anyway, someone brought up the distance of slings. And I agree the slings don't have the range of a bow. But, rock-throwing weapons could be marketed and produced by Salaar. Someone will do the research, I hope, but I know that a slingshot isn't the only type of weapon that throws rocks in the RL world. Some sling a stone much, much further, and harder.

Mmm, and what X-D said. I remember an assassination carried out by a half-giant with a sling, back then. I was pretty sure those victims were more than one room away. I don't nessessarily think the sling is useless, jjust underused and acknowledged.

[UnderSeven]

It is realistic to grow tired from fighting, but realistic is not always better, at least not for this game.

My biggest problem with combat stanima loss is it doesn't reflect well across the game.  If pcs need to start considering how much energy they have fighting, then the mindless npcs become suddenly much more dangerous - and unrealistic.  While the pcs will have to start considering, do I have enough energy to go against that thing, said thing isn't going to care.  Gith arn't going to consider, gee, do I have enough energy to fight this guy, take his stuff, escape if needed and possibly fight another battle if someone walks in on me?  Furthermore, even if they did consider it, they stand round all day, fully rested, without having to worry about food, being in the sun all day or water much - though it is cool they at least carry it to suggest they have some consideration.

Tembo don't consider, do I have enough energy to kill this guy, and then defend my kill from other tembo after fighting it.  A real life example would be, yes, bears.  Goddless killing machines.  When confronted with a bear, one of the things, depending on the breed, they suggest you do is fight back as hard as you can, not because you could ever hope to take a bear, but because if you put up enough of a fight that bear might decide you're more trouble then your worth.  This is because a real life bear is considering it's health, energy, when fighting and won't get involved in a fight if it can't 1) win, and 2) have enough energy protect it's kill and not fall victim to a preditor itself.  

Unless npcs suddenly start reflecting these considerations, I am against combat fatigue of any kind.  It's true though at least with these changes, bash/kick/disarm is less often used against npcs, my point stays the same.

I'd be much more in favor of kick/bash/disarm and other class skills the staff want to see not spammed get a cooldown time of some kind (I really liked my suggestion of during said cooldown time you got a skill penalty to suggest you were 'off balance' making it far more likely to just plain critically fail the skill).

[jhunter]

It is realistic to lose stamina while fighting. It is also -unrealistic- that noone besides warriors lose -any- stamina while in combat. Warriors, the -masters of melee- have physical drain while in combat (even if it is only from some of their combat skills) where noone else does. If realism was a factor for adding it, some representation of stamina loss should've been added for -all- guilds that find themselves in combat at all.

They don't lose stamina while fighting, just using their special skills. Like I said before, even without their special skills, they are still the ultimate master of melee. A master warrior could liturally fight armies in melee. Hold off two half giant rangers. That's without using their "special skills" even if those half giants could beat the warrior from a distance. Every guild has different strengths and weakness', they balanced warriors with this penalty. Glad they have.

They don't use those special skills that were affected unless it is -for combat- Ritley. That line of reasoning is irrelevant.
It doesn't make it right to impose realistic physics on only one guild and not the rest. It makes the other guilds unbalanced and more unrealistic now. That's saying that it's okay that warriors have to stick to tight constraints of realism but noone else does. That in itself, is unbalancing. Warriors, and currently -only- warriors now have to factor in stamina during combat where -noone- else does. That is not balance or realism IMO.

Also think about this....a warrior and a non-warrior both run out of stamina and are in melee. The warrior now can no longer fight to his full potential because he is too tired, the non-warrior is unaffected.

This is realistic??? This is balanced???

No. Not at all.

[marko]

With my last warrior character I rarely used any of the secondary skills even though he fought... a fair amount.  As an indication of that he branched two of the weapon skills.

Since I'm not playing a warrior character right now I cannot speak as to how this change impacts warriors.  From my own experience, the impact wouldn't be huge.

It may be that this code change is a pre-cursor to a wider overhaul of combat and its results.  Who knows, we may start seeing things like stamina loss after X minutes based on endurance?  (Or would that make endurance an attribute that is too important to characters?)  

For example, if Amos and Malik the mercenaries were sparring for more then an IC hour their stamina would start to drain away with every hit and dodge.  Upon exhaustion perhaps they'd collapse on the ground - only able to defend themselves no more hitting.  Ooooh.. how I can see people not liking that idea but I think it'd be grand.  Although, if this were to happen, perhaps at a certain point that stamina would start to regen without having to rest.  Say, from between 0-20% of stamina there would be regen standing.

We may see combat leading to permanent reductions in people's stamina or hit points based on powerful hits to certain locations.

We may see temporary reductions in stamina or hit points based on combat results.  That guy that gets chomped on the foot by a mekillot might see their stamina reduced to half and it would take IC days to recover it back.  Ahhh.. how I hope.  

Someone bashed on the head for 40 hp of damage or more might see their stun reduced for the period of ten IC days.

We may see other introductions of ways to permanently damage a character without killing them - how I wish this will happen so people would start fearing for their characters without necessarily having to face death.

[Ritley]

The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.

[spawnloser]

I'm not playing a warrior right now, nor does my current character have these mentioned skills, so I can't determine how much stamina loss is occurring.

That said, picture it this way:

Two people are fighting, one a warrior and one a ranger.  They are evenly matched on offense/defense and weapon skills.  They are in melee combat.  The ranger swings his weapons, the warrior swings his...and charges in with his shoulder!  In this situation, who should lost more stamina?

Continuing this example, after the warrior has tried to kick the ranger in the face ten times, don't you think the ranger would see it coming the eleventh?

I'm fine with stamina loss, since the warrior is putting forth that much extra exertion.  I'm fine with cooldown to reflect that the warrior is giving away his secret tricksy moves that won't be nearly so tricksy the second, third or fiftieth time around on the same opponent.

I also trust the IMMs to tweek these to not completely nerf warriors.

[jhunter]

The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.

You're completely missing the point here Ritley.
This -isn't- about whether or not the warrior will still kick their ass. I repeat people, this is -not- about whether or not the warrior will still beat the other guilds in melee.

It's about realism across the board for all guilds. It's about imposing the same realistic contstraints on all guilds not on just one guild. It's about imposing the same physics on all of the pc types that make up the gameworld. They live in the same world, the physics should be the same for them.
It is -not- realistic this way. In fact, it's more unrealistic than before it was added because it makes the other guilds -more- unrealistic in comparision.

[Ritley]

The warrior will only run out of stamina if he uses kick bash or disarm. A warrior doesn't even need them to kick the fuck out of other guilds in close combat.

You're completely missing the point here Ritley.
This -isn't- about whether or not the warrior will still kick their ass. I repeat people, this is -not- about whether or not the warrior will still beat the other guilds in melee.

It's about realism across the board for all guilds. It's about imposing the same realistic contstraints on all guilds not on just one guild. It's about imposing the same physics on all of the pc types that make up the gameworld, they live in the same world the physics should be the same for them.
It is -not- realistic this way. In fact, it's more unrealistic than before it was added because it makes the other guilds -more- unrealistic in comparision.

So people should lose stamina when using a bow? no, I don't think so, becuase they're only using their arms, and it takes a while to pull the arrow out of the quiver anyway, giving them time to recover. Backstabbing? no because it's a subtle movement, unless of couse your spam using it then, fair play. Throw? no, same principals as the bow. Sap, maybe, but you only tend to use it once anyway.

Ok, give me a example then?

[jhunter]

I definitely think people should lose stamina when using a bow. Absofuckinglutely. You stand and shoot a bow repeatedly and tell me you don't get tired. If you say you don't, you have the fucking stamina of a cheetah or you are lying.

In the end, all pcs should be affected by their stamina during combat. What part of this is so hard to understand?
Are you saying it's realistic that noone but a warrior tires in combat at all?  (Again, it doesn't matter that it's only some of their skills, they are strictly combat skills and are a part of the warrior's arsenal in melee combat. Thus, when they are using them they are fighting to their full potential and are tiring during combat. A non-warrior does not tire in combat while fighting to their full potential.)

Are trying to convince me that it's realistic an exhausted warrior fights far below his potential but an exhausted, ranger, assassin, merchant, pick-pocket...etc...does not?

Edit: An example? Sure thing. How about just being in combat period? That should realistically wear on -all- pc's stamina.

[Ritley]

Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.

[jhunter]

Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.

We're not talking about typing it here Ritley.  :roll:  We're talking realism. Seriously, you must not have ever shot a bow in your life. Go find an archery range or something...try to nock, draw and shoot, arrow after arrow without taking any time to do anything else between. Oh, and no compound bow, use a standard, old-fashioned type bow.

When you type:

pull quiver

shoot blahblah east

You take aim with your bow.

You shoot a red-fletched, white-shafted patriot arrow east.

That is what you are doing nocking, drawing back and shooting an arrow.

[Ritley]

Yes, you might get tired if you used the bow over, and over, and over again... but, first you have to type it. And then you aim, which takes a short while. So no, it shouldn't really.

We're not talking about typing it here Ritley.  :roll:  We're talking realism. Seriously, you must not have ever shot a bow in your life. Go find an archery range or something...try to nock, draw and shoot, arrow after arrow without taking any time to do anything else between. Oh, and no compound bow, use a standard, old-fashioned type bow.

When you type:

pull quiver

shoot blahblah east

You take aim with your bow.

You shoot a red-fletched, white-shafted patriot arrow east.

That is what you are doing nocking, drawing back and shooting an arrow.

Not my point. You still have to draw the arrow, which takes two or three seconds, nocking it takes four or five, and nocking it wouldn't drain energy, then it comes to shooting it.

[jhunter]

You aren't getting my point. It doesn't really take two or three seconds Ritley. And nocking it doesn't really take four or five, it takes energy to draw back the bow dependant upon the draw of the bow. It takes energy to hold a non-compound bow's string back while you aim.

[Ritley]

Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.

[Yokunama]

I'm not playing a warrior right now, nor does my current character have these mentioned skills, so I can't determine how much stamina loss is occurring.

2-6 points of stamina loss. It isn't very much.

Anyways, this stamina penalty doesn't affect only the warrior class, but many feel that it is warriors only that get the penalty, because the effected skills only show up for that guild in their skill list.

I'm all for the stamina loss, because these skills are often spammed, and they usually put the other guilds at a GREAT disadvantage, if successful. Warriors are already masters of melee combat and that adds onto that disadvantage.

My two 'sids.

[jhunter]

Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.

If your arms hurt you aren't going to fight as effectively. You aren't going to move as easily with sore muscles. And pulling a bow using more than your arm muscles, it uses you chest muscles as well.

Anyway, I can see I'm getting nowhere with you and I'm getting irritated so I'm done with this part of the conversation before I begin flaming out of frustration with trying to get you to understand something you have no RL experience with.

[Ritley]

Might hurt your arms, but would it really make you out of breath? I don't think so.

If your arms hurt you aren't going to fight as effectively. You aren't going to move as easily with sore muscles. And pulling a bow using more than your arm muscles, it uses you chest muscles as well.

Anyway, I can see I'm getting nowhere with you and I'm getting irritated so I'm done with this part of the conversation before I begin flaming out of frustration with trying to get you to understand something you have no RL experience with.

But, I do though. I did not get out of breath. You can roleplay your arms hurting, but would it really make a affect on your aiming? no... how about shooting? no.

[Yokunama]

We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them.  My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different.  People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.

It may not be the traditional balance between classes, but we are trying to achieve a balance here.  We want skills to be equally useful to people who want to misuse the code and people who play the way we expect.  The benefit of adding some additional strategy to combat is also a factor, though admittedly that has less to do with balance.

Just a couple of things I wanted to bring back into the discussion.

[jhunter]

That's nice. It still doesn't make it right in my book. The gameworld's physics have changed and only for one guild. I don't give a rat's ass what the reasoning for it is. It should be made so that all guilds are affected by the same physics.

Like I said, it's like any guild being able to move freely without tiring but suddenly adding stamina points to only one guild limiting their movement. Sure it's realistic, but not for the other guilds that it wasn't added for.

Or suddenly making it so that -any- guild is subject to different physics when interacting with other guilds. This is disregarding magick as it breaks the laws of physics of course.

[Nao]

spawnloser makes some excellent points there - read it jhunter. Bashing and knocking someone over or spin-kicking takes a lot more energy than just the usual fighting.

I tried the slingshot with a pc of mine, but granted, that was more than half a year ago and she had low strength - so maybe that's why it didn't even fire one room away.

About archery: if this comes into pay, the archery loss should be minimal. Shooting doen't make you that tired, seriously, and usually the munition limits this anyway. And yes, I've done this, even today. If you're not that practiced, it takes quite some time to even get and nock the arrow. The pulling and aiming takes three seconds at the most, a lot less if you're practiced  I've seen people pulling back, firing and even hitting most of the time in less than one second of drawing back and aiming, so the strain on your arms is short, even moreso the better you get. Your arms would also get used to this with practice.

I wouldn't mind a general stamina loss for all classes that much, but I'd rather see that cooldown implemented. Or maybe some quicker stamina regeneration - if this is combat, then this would only mean being out of breath - and it doesn't take -that- long to regain your breath.[/b]

[marko]

I notice noone is actually refuting any of my particular points or giving me -any- sort of logical reasoning as to -why- no other guild's stamina should be affected by combat.

Well, I don't see any other guild that has extra abilities that they can use within combat.  Assassins have an opener that creates a huge lag delay (first there is the approach and then the combat delay after which is longer than kill's) so I feel that is acceptable.  Should backstab take additional stamina?  Hmm... possibly it should take into consideration the amount of stamina it would take to walk across the room.

So, if you backstab in the street, it would take no stamina.  If you backstab in the wilderness it would take anywhere between 3-8 stamina.

But what other in combat abilities are there?  Casting spells?  Hmm... maybe a stamina reduction for each spell cast in combat.  I think that would be reasonable as well to be honest.  It takes some extra concentration to pull off a spell while fighting it out.

So what other in combat abilities are there?  We have kick, bash, disarm, spell casting, and... umm... nothing else?  Maybe I'm blanking here.  I can't think of any other in combat ability.

I would therefore suggest that no one is refuting your point because there aren't any other skills that people can think of where this applies in the same manner.

[Raesanos]

I pulled out a bunch of posts that where either trolling or arguing about who was trolling and whatnot.  I think we can get this conversation back on track, please be nice and think before you post.

[Nao]

Err... yea. If you use those skills, you do something in addition to the usual stuff in combat, right? So it's just fine that you need more stamina for that one that for normal combat.

normal combat doesn't cost anything right now, this might be changed, or this might be not. If this gets implemented, a warrior that uses their skills will still be at a disadvantage stamina-wise when they use their skills, cause they'll be using up a bit more every time they use them. That's still realistic.

Right now, battle doesn't take up any stamina for either of them, but the extra moves cost a bit - of course you could set both of them at a disadvantage, but the under the line, its the same.

I'd rather see the cooldown though - stamina on all classes would really cut down on playability, exspecially for hunter types that take forever to kill somethiong even if they shouldn't and don't regain any stamina outside at all without resting.

If it's not broken, don't fix it - I like things as they are now, stamina loss for disarm/bash/kick or not. If alot more things need stamina now, you change one parameter and need to change many of the others, too, to keep the game playable for everyone.