Combat skill limitations

[UnderSeven]

I'm reading Jhunters post and thinking there might be some balance issues with raising the bar.  In a sense I agree with him, but the staff did clearly state part of the motivation here was to prevent people from spamming certain skills.

Raising the bar would sort of defeat that purpose.  I might also add that not all classes will likely ever need to worry too much about these changes.  I can't imagine a merchant, for instance, aside from crafting, does a whole lot that requires their stanima.  

I kind of see where Jhunter is coming from, but I think right now this hasn't been around long enough for any of us to really know the effects it will have on the game.

[Halaster]

How about we just see how it goes for a while (month) with the current changes before we assume THE GAME IS GOING TO HELL.

[jhunter]

I don't need that long to assess it. I know what it -was- like. And I know what the changes -are-. It's not rocket science. A month from now, if no other changes are made that affect this, it's still going to be the same as it is now. I don't need an entire month to mull it over. Without any other changes being made, my thoughts will be exactly the same in a month as they are now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...I think right now this hasn't been around long enough for any of us to really know the effects it will have on the game.

My point exactly. And the Staff have already declared that they will adjust as they see need to. They have also stated that more than just warrior skills will be effected.

I personally could see the following:

Code Select Expand

scan = stun
hunt = stun (Hunt assumes you are carefully going over things here)
forage = one more stamina point for a total of two
listen = stun (likely one per RL minute)
sneak = stamina (for the simple fact that sneaking takes work)
hide = stamina (As above, it takes work to do this)
many more

I'm also personally of the opinion that magick should take stun and stamina equally. That's mental processes and physical exertion. Mana shouldn't even be a stat in this game. And yes, I've played a magicker so please, nobody tell me I'm trying to screw over magickers now.

Crafting of any physical kind (such as weaving, not cooking) should take stamina. There's concentration required.

[skeetdaddle]

Then why ask for our opinions on this? I find it rather cruel to ask the players what we think about this code change, and then throw it back in our faces when we discuss it and suggest fixes/changes that we think might be better. We as players don't expect our suggestions to come to fruition necessarily, but it would be nice to feel that our thoughts were at least appreciated and considered.

I think LoD had an interesting idea, and I'm wondering if his/her main point goes back to the issue of not being able to flee from a fight because you've lost your stam using kick/bash/etc. through the course of the fight. This seems silly to me. You might not be able to get very far, but if it means your life, I would think that you could drag your ass a short distance to escape. I also agree that d-elf/warriors are going to feel the brunt of this more than anyone else.

A situation to consider:

Bob has 135 stam points total. Bob's been foraging for rocks in a cave for a little while so Bob's down to 105 stam points. Bob's a careful man, however and has not gone too far from home (say 5 rooms), and has decided its time to sit down for a rest. Just as he's about to do so, Joe steps in, mouth foaming and rushes in at Bob. Bob happens to be a warrior, so he decides to fight Joe thinking that maybe he can take Joe down. Bob throws a few kicks, a few bashes, drops down to about 80 stam. The fight slowly begins to turn for the worse for Bob, and he decides to make a mad dash for it. Fails his flee twice, (which I'm presuming drops your stam, but I could be wrong), is now at 70 stam. He escapes, but is running now from the flee. He gets two rooms closer to home (though he really ran 4 rooms because flee sent him in the wrong direction initially, so he had to backtrack) and is now at 55 stam when Joe catches up with him. He tries to flee again, fails again and escapes with 45 stam, running the wrong direction again. Now one room from home and safety, Bob is at 20 stam when Joe catches up with him again. He tries to flee again, but fails, losing all stam. Now careful Bob is dead Bob, even though he only threw out a handful of kicks and bashes when he had a reasonable amount of stam to believe it was safe to try such things.

Some will say Bob should've never gone to look for rocks. Others will say Bob should've practiced his flee more before willingly taking on Joe. I will weep for Bob, and probably never play a warrior again.

[Delirium]

I will say Bob should have immediately run from a fight he wasn't sure he could win.

Stop trying to be a hero.  In Zalanthas, heros don't win, they die.

[jhunter]

Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

[skeetdaddle]

Thus implying you should flee from everything and never, ever, ever get into any fights because you could die. That's silly.

[Delirium]

No, not implying that at all.

If you want to take everything to black and white extremes, feel free to do so, but you'll continue missing the point.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Skeetdaddle, from the Staff point of view, I don't think it's the discussion and suggestion that have occured, but rather the semi-hostile tone that the thread has taken. Players are seriously offended by the changes, and instead of just talking about it and suggesting things, some of us have become belligerent about our opinion.

If we watch the tone of our posts, I'm sure the Staff will be much more conceding when discussing this subject.

[skeetdaddle]

Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

I'd iron it out. I don't think it would get much more complicated from your side, truthfully. I'd take input, consider it, hash it out, and then either leave it be because your argument was invalid, or modify it so that you could be happy, or take it out altogether because it was bad for the game.

Most of the things I've ever suggested don't really overcomplicate anything from your side. There's more reinforcement for IC realities, but there's also more room for code-assisted roleplay. For instance, when I suggested coded styles, it gave messages that you could turn off altogether from your side. It had advantages and disadvantages, all coded. Yet all the player had to do was type kill joe, change cstyle allanaki, and/or cstyle on/cstyle off.

Not complicated at all.

By the way, to counter this loose of stamina, I'd strongly suggest letting us regain stamina while stand up at a rate of 1-5 points per RL minute. If I were Staff, I'd do it.

:shock:  :lol:

[LoD]

How about we just see how it goes for a while (month) with the current changes before we assume THE GAME IS GOING TO HELL.

I agree.  I really don't think this is going to be a huge problem for most.

That said, this is a discussion board and I'd expect a certain amount of nervous chatter ranging from general approval to constructive criticism to hate laced generalizations about probably the largest change warriors and other melee classes have seen in a long while.  The last big change affecting more than one melee class would have been those made to the regeneration rates, but even then it didn't change as much as lessen.

This is something completely new and different from what every single player has known since the beginning of the MUD.  The only thing comparable is when stamina loss was added to an attempt to flee from a subdued position.

So, is it worth waiting to see how it affects gameplay in a live environment before getting too carried away?  Of course.

But some people will always think change = HELL!

-LoD

[jhunter]

Man, I have to say Venomz if you had your way about how everything in this game was going to work I wouldn't be playing anymore. No offense or anything but it would just get so difficult and overcomplicated that I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

I'd iron it out. I don't think it would get much more complicated from your side, truthfully. I'd take input, consider it, hash it out, and then either leave it be because your argument was invalid, or modify it so that you could be happy, or take it out altogether because it was bad for the game.

Most of the things I've ever suggested don't really overcomplicate anything from your side. There's more reinforcement for IC realities, but there's also more room for code-assisted roleplay. For instance, when I suggested coded styles, it gave messages that you could turn off altogether from your side. It had advantages and disadvantages, all coded. Yet all the player had to do was type kill joe, change cstyle allanaki, and/or cstyle on/cstyle off.

Not complicated at all.

By the way, to counter this loose of stamina, I'd strongly suggest letting us regain stamina while stand up at a rate of 1-5 points per RL minute. If I were Staff, I'd do it.

:shock:  :lol:

I guess I just mostly meant that I liked the amount of "coded" things vs "rp'd" things as it was. You appear to want alot more things hard-coded instead of open to interpretation. The more coded some things get the less I enjoy it and the more I lose interest. I like having a bit more choices in how I feel like rp'ing something with my character instead of having the game decide it all for me.

[Delirium]

Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?

It wasn't my intent to get drawn into an argument, but I will answer your question:

Bob couldn't have known he could take Joe or not.  That's why he should have done one of two things: run immediately, or conserve his energy in case he had to run (i.e. not wasted it on kicks and bashes).  If the fight was decisively his, then it would be reasonable for him to think he could defend himself against Joe and open up a real can of whoop-ass.

Remember that in Zalanthas, life is uncertain and precious.  It's all you have.  An average zalanthan is going to put survival above all else.  Entering a fight you aren't sure you can win is either a mark of extreme confidence in your abilities, desperation, or suicide.  A zalanthan would want numbers on his/her side before entering into the unknown (i.e. raiders working in groups, militia banding together).  A zalanthan attacked alone out in the wastes would probably not think "hm, maybe I can take him with only a couple wounds".  A zalanthan would think "oh, shit, I'd better get out of here before I'm seriously hurt and keep an eye out for this fuck in case I've ever got the advantage over him".

Simply put, caution and intelligence regarding the fights you get in or stay in are the only way to survive for a lengthy amount of time, and a zalanthan would probably realize this.

[jhunter]

Tell me then, exactly how Bob would've known before getting into the fight with Joe whether or not he could take on Joe?

It wasn't my intent to get drawn into an argument, but I will answer your question:

Bob couldn't have known he could take Joe or not.  That's why he should have done one of two things: run immediately, or conserve his energy in case he had to run (i.e. not wasted it on kicks and bashes).  If the fight was decisively his, then it would be reasonable for him to think he could defend himself against Joe and open up a real can of whoop-ass.

Remember that in Zalanthas, life is uncertain and precious.  It's all you have.  An average zalanthan is going to put survival above all else.  Entering a fight you aren't sure you can win is either a mark of extreme confidence in your abilities, desperation, or suicide.  A zalanthan would want numbers on his/her side before entering into the unknown (i.e. raiders working in groups, militia banding together).  A zalanthan attacked alone out in the wastes would probably not think "hm, maybe I can take him with only a couple wounds".  A zalanthan would think "oh, shit, I'd better get out of here before I'm seriously hurt and keep an eye out for this fuck in case I've ever got the advantage over him".

Simply put, caution and intelligence regarding the fights you get in or stay in are the only way to survive for a lengthy amount of time, and a zalanthan would probably realize this.

Delirium you are sounding to me too that you are saying that the only option is to run every time. How would he have known if he could beat him or not if he didn't try to use -everything- in his arsenal to win? (Kick, bash, disarm)
If he wasn't fighting to his fullest potential then he would have no way of knowing if he could've won the fight or not.

That's like saying he shouldn't have pulled out his gun until he knew he could beat him without it.  :roll:

[Xygax]

To contribute to Delirium's point; you never know who or what you're going to survive AFTER this fight.  So even taking a couple of minor wounds finishing this fight off might increase your risk of death later.  A wise individual stays clear of fights they don't need to participate in.

-- X

[skeetdaddle]

I see the point. I was tyring to give an example of a grey area, where the set-up seemed reasonable that a player might think they had plenty of stam to try their skills, but end up dying for it. The whole scenario is to show, actually, that you (Delirium) are perfectly right. Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end. Personally, this disuades me from wanting to play a warrior, since to be safe to practice my abilities I would likely be forced to join a house, or else have to be ridiculously cautious (even more so than is currently the case).

[jhunter]

To contribute to Delirium's point; you never know who or what you're going to survive AFTER this fight.  So even taking a couple of minor wounds finishing this fight off might increase your risk of death later.  A wise individual stays clear of fights they don't need to participate in.

-- X

Our pcs are supposed to have flaws aren't they? I was always under the impression that this is so. Are you telling me that they need all be so wise that they stay clear of every fight?

[Morgenes]

I guess I just mostly meant that I liked the amount of "coded" things vs "rp'd" things as it was. You appear to want alot more things hard-coded instead of open to interpretation. The more coded some things get the less I enjoy it and the more I lose interest. I like having a bit more choices in how I feel like rp'ing something with my character instead of having the game decide it all for me.

This is a delicate thing to balance, and isn't always an easy thing to do.  There are as many different muds out there as there are for this very reason.  I tend on the same track as Venomz, which is why I'm a coder, I like seeing the world come to life through the code.  Obviously, there are plenty who disagree.

The argument that stamina shouldn't drain for getting tired would imply that we shouldn't drain mana to cast spells (let me RP how many spell points I have), and then on to how much damage an attack takes, and then if you hit or not (I shot you!  No you didn't!).  I know this is a bit of an extreme, but it follows the same logical path.  There is a type of online game for those wishing that experience, it's called a MUSH.

As for staff hostility on this subject, I am simply stating facts.  We do listen to you guys, and we have said that we are going to be working on expanding and tweaking this based on how play goes.  We understand you're upset by these changes, but we think they're the way we want to head.  As Halaster stated before, give it a rest and see how things go.

Quite a few years ago a new type of counter was added to the game that had equal amounts of 'discussion' about the 'end of days' for Armageddon, that the game was going down hill and would be completely unplayable.  That counter was called 'stun'.  How many of you would really rather have psionics drain stamina again?  Or have no difference between being hit by a bludgeoning weapon vs. a slashing weapon.

These changes are going in for a reason, and not just to stop skill spamming.  Combat has needed an overhaul for awhile, and this is just the first stages.  We are expecting you guys to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat.  And yes, in partial answer to other threads, we will be revising the NPC AI to take this into account as well.

[Dakurus]

I believe Xygax is reinforcing the fact that Zalanthas is very harsh, death is around every corner, and yes, as a PC you lived long enough to get to adulthood. If your approach to that brutal world is violence, without taking proper precautions, be it in a dark alley, or the sands and rocks of the waste, you'll soon meet your end likewise.

[Xygax]

Our pcs are supposed to have flaws aren't they? I was always under the impression that this is so. Are you telling me that they need all be so wise that they stay clear of every fight?

Being flawed and being foolish are too different things.  I invite you to explore both in the roleplay of your characters, but my guess is that the foolish ones won't live as long.

-- X

[marko]

... Bob probably should've fled right away and not attempted a single kick, bash, or disarm. This is because of the new code. This is why I don't like it. You now have to be either super prepared and in just the right situation to practice your skills as a warrior, or not use them at all for fear of it costing you greatly in the end...

To be honest, when I was playing a warrior this was exactly how I would enter into a fight.  I would _not_ kick, bash, or disarm until I had a feel for the relative skill of my opponent.  Why?  Because of the wait time after doing these skills or, in the case of bash, failing it and getting stuck on the ground.

This stamina change would not impact my style of playing a warrior at all.  I guess that's why I don't think it's a huge thing and rather like it.  I think it adds a little more strategic thought to the whole process especially since I've encountered far more warriors than I wish to count who spam disarmed my chars.

I'm holding out to see spell casting in combat drain stamina as well to make things more even.  Oh, and invisibility being broken by failed spells and fading away when a caster is actually casting (after all, we see the magick around "someone" and we hear their voice - we should be allowed to target them when that is happening - it's only for a second or two - in essence turn them into a blur that is attackable).

[jhunter]

Ummm...isn't foolishness a flaw?

[jhunter]

We are expecting you guys to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat.

Except that this change pretty much -only- makes those of the warrior guild -have- to think more about combat, and when to get out of combat. The others, (except for the -few- using a subguild that gives them kick) don't have to change anything about how they deal with melee.