Combat skill limitations

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...guh.

Consider this a blanket warning.  Stop the personal attacks and drop the bitchy attitude.  People are entitled to their opinions and it is not your place to invalidate them simply because they're different from your own.

[Delirium]

No one has said that stamina decreases will go in for merely being in combat.  The only change that has occurred is that warriors now suffer a penalty for using extra moves in combat.  They already rule the field when it comes to straight up fighting without using any auxillary skills, and from what I understand, these stamina penalties were put in to help reflect the fact that those skills are just that; auxillary skills, extra strategies that you should use and time with thought and care, not five times in a row because you can.

To truly rule the combat field in Armageddon, you need to use thought, strategy, and caution.  In short, you need to do far more than type kill and be ready to flee if you start getting too low in hitpoints.  Far, far more.  If that is the way you (a general 'you', not you, Bebop) are playing combat characters, then perhaps this addition will help in adjusting your thinking and your approach to combat.

I have played mainly combat characters, and furthermore I have played combat characters that were extremely successful out on the battlefield, in solo and in mass combat situations, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about.  You can succeed in battle without using a single warrior 'extra' (i.e. kick, bash, disarm), they are the icing on the cake that allows you to be truly, devastatingly deadly.  However, thoughtless use of those skills defeats their purpose, and so I am in full support of any code that nudges the player of a warrior to use care and thought in their application in battle.


[Edit: fixed typo.  Dumb laptops.]

[Yokunama]

No one has said that stamina decreases wil go in for merely being in combat.  The only change that has occurred is that warriors now suffer a penalty for using extra moves in combat.  They already rule the field when it comes to straight up fighting without using any auxillary skills, and from what I understand, these stamina penalties were put in to help reflect the fact that those skills are just that; auxillary skills, extra strategies that you should use and time with thought and care, not five times in a row because you can.

To truly rule the combat field in Armageddon, you need to use thought, strategy, and caution.  In short, you need to do far more than type kill and be ready to flee if you start getting too low in hitpoints.  Far, far more.  If that is the way you (a general 'you', not you, Bebop) are playing combat characters, then perhaps this addition will help in adjusting your thinking and your approach to combat.

I have played mainly combat characters, and furthermore I have played combat characters that were extremely successful out on the battlefield, in solo and in mass combat situations, so I like to think I know what I'm talking about.  You can succeed in battle without using a single warrior 'extra' (i.e. kick, bash, disarm), they are the icing on the cake that allows you to be truly, devastatingly deadly.  However, thoughtless use of those skills defeats their purpose, and so I am in full support of any code that nudges the player of a warrior to use care and thought in their application in battle.

Bingo!

[Nusku]

In the case of potentially far-reaching changes like this, the first thing we do is to offer burnt offerings to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Then we normally decide things via a belching contest between Halaster and Naiona. Thinking about things is too hard. Then we hire monkeys to actually code the changes in, and Morgenes takes the credit because the monkeys are on a contract that says that all intellectual property they come up with belongs to him.

In an alternate universe where I take people seriously, I'd be tempted to ask, "Do you really think that we just throw changes into the game willy-nilly without putting a lot of time, discussion, and thought into them?" It's one thing if you just disagree with or don't like a particular change, but quite another thing when people start taking that to an extreme and acting like we have nothing in the way of processes. One thing that's important to remember when posting any kind of feedback is that it's a lot more likely to be considered if it is not perceived as insulting.

[Wykydtronn]

Last time I checked, a bow in the south cost close to 600 coins.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE ODIN, BUDDAH, CHRIST, ANUBIS, AND ZEUS!

Don't put stamnia drain on good ole fashion combat.  I honestly suck hard at this game.  So it takes my rangers awhile to build up the funds to even afford a bow and the arrows along with a quiver in the south.

Its bad enough I spend the first 4 or 6 days of my characters life getting them good enough to kill a scrab in melee combat.  I become king of the "flee" command.

No I hate clans, refuse to join them.  Working with other people usually results in me getting killed/raided from as soon as I step outside the gates.

So adding some random stamnia drain to good ole combat will just fuck me right over.  Being an ISO ranger is all I got left, don't take that away from me.

[Cenghiz]

I used to play warriors. I stopped, because it was 'too easy'.
A human warrior may become good in melee in no time. And he gets really good. A bit of stamina drain too taxing?
Maybe it is.. But why's this attitute? Forgive me but this discussion was... uncivil.
I'm not thinking of playing a warrior for long - too easy, so I have no point of view on this subject. Normally I am just watching.. Just.

Yang: Magickers cannot spam spells. They have mana. It gets drained in big chunks when you cast something strong. The mage kills you with a single chanting or a couple, or he dies.

All others claiming it'll become harder to kill a mage: Killing a mage on your own should already be hard.

People claiming this idea is 'stupid': Then explain the flaw nicely. Show us reasons why warriors will become crap with this stamina loss instead of repeating 'stupid stupid stupid'. No, warriors are still masters. Find another reasoning. I don't believe the stamina loss is 50 points per trial and people use kanks to navigate. It takes the stamina from you, not from your kank. Just exhaust yourself and then hop on your kank. Give the poor bug a kick with your last stamina points and it will go.

[Agent_137]

for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.

[Fragmented]

I figure I'll go ahead and throw my two sid into the pot. As a fan of warriors, I'll admit I was a little dissapointed to see the stamina loss, but I can accept it as realistic. What I don't like is hearing people say 'just play them smarter'. Bash, and disarm, are core skills of warriors. They are what seperates a warrior from a ranger, combat wise, as I've seen some rangers who can be pretty deadly in melee. Remember that most warriors will never attain the level of melee eliteness that is their province. Combine this with the fact that kick can be gained through a subclass, as can archery, subdue, and guard, even if their caps are low. Against a mage, bash is the -only- tactical skill a warrior has against them, to keep them from casting, and I would heavily support a warrior bashing the -shit- out of a mage every time he could, because otherwise, he's toast. Especially against mages using stoneskin (and I feel it's alright to mention this spell since the helpfile on it is available to everyone). So as for playing smarter, I think the mage classes (who are already incredibly powerful) should be played smarter. I'm positive just about any mage has more ways to kill a warrior then a warrior has to kill a mage. And while I'm not calling for absolute balance between warriors and mages (that's why I like the fact that mages are karma required. They -should- be more powerful) I think warriors are already at a disadvantage enough against mages.

I can deal with the stamina loss, but putting a cooldown beyond the lag that's already on them I will not support, and while I don't mean to sound childish, if such a cool down was put in place, I'd never play a warrior again. The stamina loss is enough and realistic. Coding it so that warriors can't bash repeatedly if they need to (which is perfectly realistic and tactical) even with taking a loss of some sort is not realistic.

I can't help but feel that the main supporters, players -and- staff of this whole combat skill nerfing have probably played a character (mage or not) that's had their ass handed to them by a warrior who bashed/disarmed/kicked them repeatedly and were irritated by it. That's usually when people call for change. When they've been effected negatively. Nobody that's happy with the way things are calls for those things to be changed.

[Anarchy]

Im not for movement drain for simply being in combat.
But i  dont mind the fact warriors loose movement for kick, bash, disarm.
The current delay for kick, bash and disarm already functions as a cooldown, stamina loss + cool down + lag would be seriously unfair for a warrior, granted.

However keep the following in mind

1 - Even without kick, bash and disarm a warrior will outmatch anyone toe-to-toe. I have been involved in combat that finished so quickly kick couldn't even be typed in.

2 - Even without kick, bash and disarm a warrior will outmatch anyone toe-to-toe.

Warriors dont rise and fall with those three skills. Look at it this way. When using one of these special moves you are trying to put yourself in a spot where you can preform it without getting hurt and move quick enough to execute the move. It is taxing on the mind and body, and thus you lose a small amount of stamina. If your warrior cant finish a fight without taxing all their movement, you seriously need to reconsider your tactics.

It would be a joke however if we lost movement for each round of combat, each blow that misses, each sucessful parry, etc.

But stamina loss for three skills that only inconvience the guild slightly? Im all for it.

[Synthesis]

People who think that warriors will always outmatch other classes toe-to-toe, without secondary skill use are mistaken.

Granted, the other combatant will have to be much more -experienced- than the warrior, but assassins, rangers, even merchants can hold their own against a warrior, if they've practiced fighting enough.  Every class gets shield use and dual wield, and those two skills, if practiced enough, are enough to counter a warrior's parry and weapon skill.  You might not be able to -kill- him, but he won't be able to kill you, either, if he's not using any other command.

The only "aces in the hole" a warrior has (until he has reached 15-20 days of playing time with moderate training) are the secondary skills.

Not going anywhere with this, just pointing it out to correct any misconceptions people may have.

[John]

People who think that warriors will always outmatch other classes toe-to-toe, without secondary skill use are mistaken.

Granted, the other combatant will have to be much more -experienced- than the warrior, but assassins, rangers, even merchants can hold their own against a warrior, if they've practiced fighting enough.....You might not be able to -kill- him, but he won't be able to kill you, either, if he's not using any other command.

The only "aces in the hole" a warrior has (until he has reached 15-20 days of playing time with moderate training) are the secondary skills.

Which is completely realistic. "A merchant trained in combat vs a 1 hour old warrior will be able to hold his own, unless the warrior is allowed to use secondary skills, but unless he's good at them, he'll have to spam them, which he can't do anymore." Not seeing a problem there, this code actually fixes a flaw. Great.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.

The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.

[Nao]

for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.

The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.

Have you guys ever tried that? To use that available sling, you need to be i the same room with the target. Which will attack you, even if it isn't aggressive, cause you're in the same room and throwing stones at it.
Even one-room bows are close to useless in the south for hunting - only usable on jozhal, not on the dangerous beasties that you want to stay away from by using a ranged weapon.
Why useless? Cause once you get into archery range of that scrab/spider/beetle, it will come at you and try to eat you before you can even aim and fire once. And you're even worse off, youve put yourself into a situation where you're facing a scrab/beetle/spider without a weapon drawn to defend yourself.

[John]

Quick question Nao. Have you ever played a seasoned ranger (who took the time to learn archery), or just a newbie one?

I've only played newbie ones myself, but I believe (from what people like Angela Christine have said) that once you get good, a sling is good enough (if not to completely kill, at least significantly hurt).

[Ghost]

Quick question Nao. Have you ever played a seasoned ranger (who took the time to learn archery), or just a newbie one?

I've only played newbie ones myself, but I believe (from what people like Angela Christine have said) that once you get good, a sling is good enough (if not to completely kill, at least significantly hurt).

Althoug it is not really totally related to the original topic:

But John, she is not saying the sling does not deal much damage.  She says it is nearly useless in south because of the nature of the NPCs.

[FightClub]

I used to play warriors. I stopped, because it was 'too easy'.
A human warrior may become good in melee in no time. And he gets really good. A bit of stamina drain too taxing?
Maybe it is.. But why's this attitute? Forgive me but this discussion was... uncivil.
I'm not thinking of playing a warrior for long - too easy, so I have no point of view on this subject. Normally I am just watching.. Just.

Yang: Magickers cannot spam spells. They have mana. It gets drained in big chunks when you cast something strong. The mage kills you with a single chanting or a couple, or he dies.

All others claiming it'll become harder to kill a mage: Killing a mage on your own should already be hard.

People claiming this idea is 'stupid': Then explain the flaw nicely. Show us reasons why warriors will become crap with this stamina loss instead of repeating 'stupid stupid stupid'. No, warriors are still masters. Find another reasoning. I don't believe the stamina loss is 50 points per trial and people use kanks to navigate. It takes the stamina from you, not from your kank. Just exhaust yourself and then hop on your kank. Give the poor bug a kick with your last stamina points and it will go.

[Edited by Raesanos, this included too much in-character information about an encouter with a magic user and what they could do]

[John]

But John, she is not saying the sling does not deal much damage.  She says it is nearly useless in south because of the nature of the NPCs.

I can think of a few ways to use it coupled with other skills, but they're in in theory. The code might not support them. I was wondering if someone whose had actual experience can say whether or not slings can be effective against animals in the southlands.

[X-D]

So, I take my current PC and head south, buy a sling.

Go out and look, it fires 2 rooms away.


Never seen a same room sling myself...but maybe it has something to do with the strength of the pc.

[Wykydtronn]

for the record, if you're in the south and you want to be an archer, use a goddamn sling. It's literally -dirt- cheap.

The Agent is right. In the south, slings should be used far more frequently, and Salaar should be selling some better quality ones regularly. Even the room descriptions outside of the city support this notion.

Well I'm a retarded, I never bothered to read the whole list of what was offered.

[Cenghiz]

In the process of the mages chanting, the character in question could never attack the mage, although the mage would have most likely been clearly giving his location unless he was pitching his voice (no indication was given of this) So why the overkill, shouldn't the warrior have a -chance-? Should mages have a similar timer, yes. If not worse

So you assume the levitating, invisible mage was within your reach? I believe he kept close to a wall and silently howered to another position whenever you rushed to the sound. Realistic enough now?

Please understand. As I have told about 100 or more times, a single mage can kill a single warrior with ease. It is the way it should be.

[flurry]

FightClub -

IMHO, that's way too much IC info about magick.

[Yokunama]

So why the overkill, shouldn't the warrior have a -chance-?

You do have a chance. That is why we have the 'flee' command.

[Ritley]

I personally think this topic is silly, it's just realistic to lose stamina! Warrior's still have the advantage over close combat...

Ok, I know Warrior's are not the best combat class. And they shouldn't be! there is three non karma classes that can kill easily, (one of which has other skills, the three are)

1. Assassin = sneaky combat, and ranged combat
2. Ranger = ranged combat, and some close combat
3. Warrior = close combat, and some ranged

Ok, warriors are not the best! nor are they ment to be. It barely makes a difference anyway. I mean, how many times do you need to disarm someone knocking their weapon to the east? how many times would you need to knock someone to the ground? only once every now and again.
Yay for stamina loss! They still have the greatest advantage over close combat. How important are bash, kick, and disarm anyway?


I don't think Warrior's are ment to have the best combative skills. They shouldn't anyway... 'cause otherwise it would be unbalanced. They have the best close combat skills... that's enough for me.

[FightClub]

*shotgun blast to head*

FightClub -

IMHO, that's way too much IC info about magick.

It was completely hypothetical I made all of that up, now you validating that it was ic info however -- haha!  :shock: