Serjeant with a J

[Morfeus]

What if all elementalists used "magick", except for a certain theoretical clan of elementalists who wanted to distinguish themselves by calling their powers "majick" instead.

Alright, lets imagine this situation:

There is a sorcerer called Big Guy. He has his own followers and blah blah, spends his time in dark studies blah blah. During the time the group creates own believes, adoring this Big Guy as a Third Sorcerer. One day things happen and the group is forced to split. Before they split, they promise to each other to find more followers, teach them believes and so on. All followers are supposed to meet in place X in ten years. To be able to recognize each other, they decide to make a subtle sign - all of them would pronounce word "magick" as "majick" - the difference in pronouncation is subtle enough to be unnoticed or mistaken as slurr, but if you if you know what to look for...

*shrug* Just a thought.

[Cenghiz]

To mansa:

As I said in my first post, I also believe distinguishing 'serjeant' - 'sergeant' is unimportant. What I was opposing was the attitude: "I didn't like this rule.. I won't obey."
I just didn't want this trend to become popular - finding excuses to disobey the rules of the game, even when the rules feel weird and stupid and even when the rule is something unimportant. I repeat, I believe this 'serjeant' thing is not something likely of much importance and I also believe it could be removed without harming the game. But still "Maybe I'm slurring/They sound the same/You still understand what I say." are excuses to deny the rule. If there's a rule set in the IC gameworld - Serjeants are different from Sergeants - it should be obeyed. Maybe in Sirihish they sound different, eh? If we start breaking unimportant rules, soon excuses will be found for important rules.
Of course my examples were to the extreme, I was in my usual cheerful mood and wanted to make you all smile. I wasn't trying to prove anything. But after reading your post of "Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck" I feel the urge to debate like a nine-year-old boy, calling names and insults.
.....
Instead, I will stop reading this thread.

[Fragmented]

If you spell the word sergeant, serjeant, or sarrgent, you are still not violating any in-character documentation. ICly, your PC still made the exact same phoenetic sound, and since no one can "read" your speech, there is no problem.

I'm sorry, but this is where you're wrong. You are -not- making the same phonetic sound, as Serjeant is pronounced differently then Sergeant, which is the argument that really puts all these "It's the same word, only mispelled!" into the position of being moot.

I personally, as a PC, have corrected someone who said Sergeant instead of Serjeant, and I'd do it again in a minute, because the person using the word Sergeant isn't properly identifying the person he wants to talk to. Haven't any of you had your last names, or maybe your first names, mispronounced? Don't you correct somebody nine times out of ten?

[Larrath]

I personally, as a PC, have corrected someone who said Sergeant instead of Serjeant, and I'd do it again in a minute, because the person using the word Sergeant isn't properly identifying the person he wants to talk to. Haven't any of you had your last names, or maybe your first names, mispronounced? Don't you correct somebody nine times out of ten?

According to dictionary.com, there is absolutely no difference in pronounciation between Sergeant and Serjeant.  Even if there is in the form of a slight emphasis on the J, I think that correcting it ICly is similar to doing this:

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
  "So I went and talked to those Borsailes earlier and--"

The verbose, adjectivitous man says, in sirihish:
  "No, not Bh'orsaillehs, Bh'orsaihhhhh.  Bh'orsaihhhhhhhh."

It's like correcting a guy IRL that keeps pronouncing 'money' as "mo-nee" instead of "mah-nee".  You can't really tell if it's just an accent or not, and even if it isn't an accent is just really annoying nitpicking.
It's not like people are going around saying the equivalent of 'veHICle' like a certain president does.

Zalanthas is FULL of people that slur and use accents, and Sergeant and Serjeant are words that are so similar that I fully believe that anyone that corrects people about this ICly is acting ridiculous unless they're playing a dwarf whose focus is to teach Zalanthas precisely how to say 'Serjeant'.  This difference is also nearly impossible to explain without access to literacy and etymology.

[Maybe42or54]

All followers are supposed to meet in place X in ten years. To be able to recognize each other, they decide to make a subtle sign - all of them would pronounce word "magick" as "majick" - the difference in pronouncation is subtle enough to be unnoticed or mistaken as slurr, but if you if you know what to look for...

*shrug* Just a thought.

How is slurring a word better then picking another word?

If it is spelled with a J just for the sake of being different, but the same, I believe that is crap. Pick a new word.

If it sounds the same, they should be spelled the same. If they don't sound the same, emote slurring out the middle of the word, but have the word right.

If it is something like Lie-U-ten-ant and Loo-ten-ant. Sure, there is a subtle difference, but I much prefer a new word than a change to a commonly accepted word.

[mansa]

I tend to think of these arguments, the ones about english words being used improperly in Zalanthas, should always side with this theme:


Less Confusion For The Players


Much like how the ranks of the Arm of the Dragon were changed to make it less confusing, and the documents were changed to make it less confusing, the difference between Sergeant and Serjeant should be settled to make it less confusing for the players.  Just look at using colour and color in main descriptions.  I get rejected for using colour.  Just look at grey and gray for another example.

There are players here who do not speak english very well.  There are players here who have not graduated High School.  If we use well-known english words, we shouldn't change the meanings of those words in Zalanthas.  We should use made up words in those situations.

In English, there is no difference between Sergeant and Serjeant.  Actually, the only difference is the spelling.  If you plan on using Serjeant, you better use Serjeant-at-arms and expect it to not differe on that style.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sergeant
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=serjeant

Heck, when you type serjeant into google, it says, 'Did you mean sergeant?'

Again, why are we confusing this situation for our new players?

Here's more links:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=161864#161864

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=149406#149406

http://www.zalanthas.org/ArmDocs/Community/stylesheet.html

[ale six]

Zalanthas is FULL of people that slur and use accents, and Sergeant and Serjeant are words that are so similar that I fully believe that anyone that corrects people about this ICly is acting ridiculous unless they're playing a dwarf whose focus is to teach Zalanthas precisely how to say 'Serjeant'.  This difference is also nearly impossible to explain without access to literacy and etymology.

I completely agree.

Beyond that, just in Tuluk: Tenneshi has Sergeants, Salarr has Sergeants, the Byn has Sergeants, Kurac has Sergeants, and even the Sun Legion has Sergeants.

Your average, uneducated Tuluki commoner is likely not going to know to say the word differently to Winrothol "Serjeants". I think this means that if Winrothol wanted everyone to use their own slightly different word, the effort to explain that to people would have to be done ICly. They would first need to explain the difference to their own servants and guardsmen, and then make the attempt to educate the rest of Tuluk...

... which as Larrath said, would start to get pretty silly.

So if you want to make the argument that efforts to have the word changed should be done ICly, I'll then ask that IC efforts be made to get people to use it the way you want it to be in the first place. If Winrothol would like to spend IC time and resources informing the whole city to enunciate an extra J sound when addressing their few dozen Serjeants, I suppose they could. To me that sounds like a waste of time. On the other hand, it's exactly the kind of nitpicky thing that a Chosen House might decide to make an issue about if they had nothing better to do.

Let's make another analogy. House Borsail's colors are, as stated in the documentation, crimson and black. Borsail servants and Borsail nobles are taught the House colors are crimson and black, and Atrium students are taught the the colors are crimson and black. This all happens in game.

Suppose somebody is speaking to a Borsail servant...

The uneducated commoner says, "Yeah, so I saw one of your guards in those red cloaks..."
The Borsail servant says, "No no, the cloaks aren't RED. They're CRIMSON."

If you think about that in real world terms the guy comes off as being incredibly anal and nitpicky. The colors are so similar to the eyes that the difference is negligible. I don't think, normally, somebody would make this sort of correction. (If you're ordering clothes from a Kadian merchant and you want Borsail-crimson as opposed to Tor-ruby, then sure. Otherwise?)

I can think of lots of other color-related examples. And to me, I think colors would be easier to tell apart than the difference between Sergeant and Serjeant.

All of what I'm getting at is that even if there is an IC difference, it would be so slight that the burden should be on House Winrothol to justify a different usage in the game. Personally I'm skeptical if that could be done. If it can't be, then maybe the word ought to be changed to conform with what everybody else uses everywhere.

[spawnloser]

But, you see, it's not a change.  It's an equally valid spelling that is simply not in common usage any longer.  It's the older spelling even.

[bloodfromstone]

Regardless of the validity of the spelling, the point is that it does not make a difference ICly, so disrespecting or correcting someone ICly is a bit silly. It is also confusing and unnecessary.
If I were playing in Winrothol, I would spell it the way the documentation says to, but that does not mean that I would agree with it. If Winrothol's rank(s) are supposed to be unique and interesting, then lets use another word entirely for it, rather than using the, from an IC perspective, exact same word. Call them Master Slavers or something. Anything... Just changing a letter in one word is confusing and kind of pointless.

If my weaponcrafter character was supposed to call his products something different and unique, he would not call them 'broad sords' and 'would kutting axs'. I understand that Serjeant is a perfectly valid spelling of the word, but that does not mean that it accomplishes anything.

[Larrath]

Spelling:Unless otherwise instructed, use standard American spelling.

ser·jeant        Pronunciation Key  (särjnt)
n. Chiefly British

   Variant of sergeant.

ser·geant  Pronunciation Key  (särjnt)
n.

  1.
        1. Abbr. SGT or Sgt or Sgt. A noncommissioned rank in the U.S. Army or Marine Corps that is above corporal and below staff sergeant.
        2. Any of several ranks of noncommissioned officers in the U.S. Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps: master gunnery sergeant; staff sergeant.
        3. One who holds any of these ranks.
  2.
        1. Abbr. Sgt. The rank of police officer next below a captain, lieutenant, or inspector.
        2. A police officer holding this rank.
  3. A sergeant at arms.

Please note the identical spelling.  Serjeant is the British version, and Sergeant is the English version.  And please don't say that the style sheet instructs us to use English spelling in all instances of the word 'Sergeant' excluding Winrothol because that's simply ridiculous.

I am willing to use the J variant until the staff looks at this thread and decides to dismiss that whole thing.

[Vesperas]

Maybe I'm just being a little sheltered, but why does this matter?  If you want to roleplay an extremely anal Serjeant who wants everyone to pronounce the world absolutely correctly, wippee.  Good for you.  Other players should respect you for the effort of the personality quirk.

I do not understand rejecting applications on the basis of mispelling "English" words by using the same terms that come from different dialects (what I mean to say is, color will always mean the same thing as colour, and most players know the different or don't even notice it at all).  I'm American (Southern, at that!), but I still understand different dialects of my own language.  (That is not to say to go way out and make your descriptions purposely difficult to read.)

All in all, why is this topic so deserving of a lengthy, long-winded conversation?  The Arm's ranking and documentation were changed because there was a drastic difference between what was in game and what players found easy to accept.  Nitpicking on why something is spelled differently (explaining on the first page of this thread as being the direct result of a different pronunciation) is just being silly, and should just be left in-game, or noted in the proper documentations that the Winrothol are proud little bastards of saying the word "Sargeeant" rather than "Sar-gent".

[Armaddict]

Attempting to silence the players by directing them to the staff, and only the staff, is not a solution. Think of how many wonderful and inventive changes have been implemented by the staff because enough players voiced their opinion right here on the GDB.

Wonderful and inventive are the key words there.  This is not a wonderful and inventive idea.  This is you saying you can't accept a different spelling of a word because it's annoying or stupid to you, and you want it changed.  And yet it was made that way in the documentation for a specific reason.  Griping about one letter in a word?  Not a wonderful and inventive change, and something that you should probably take up with the immortal directly in charge of what's annoying you instead of making it into an OOC discussion based around, "I don't like it, so change it" that is pretty much insured to become heated because of the complete lack of need to change it.  Even moreso for the people who actually played in the clan and liked the difference, and perhaps even found out -why- it is different.

To those of you who quote the two variations of the word on dictionary.com, congratulations.

Now, look up braxat for me.  Look up Tektolnes.  Look up Luir's.  Look up T'zai Byn.

In Winrothol, Serjeant is not that same word as the one you're looking up in the real-world dictionary.  While spelled the same, the documentation states that it is a different pronunciation and different rank.  Therefore, any information you find for me from the definition of how the same-spelled word was used in RL does not apply for me.

In all seriousness, guys, this is an absolutely ridiculously long-winded conversation for something simple.  The documentation states it, it's there.  Why's it such a -huge- deal to use a 'j' instead of a 'g'?

[spawnloser]

Oh, right...and the reason I directed people to the staff is that they are the only ones that can change the docs, and they are the people, ultimately, that decide whether to change the docs in the first place.  We can debate all we want, and already have, at great length, but when it comes down to it, all you have to do is present your case to the people that decided.

[ale six]

In all seriousness, guys, this is an absolutely ridiculously long-winded conversation for something simple.  The documentation states it, it's there.  Why's it such a -huge- deal to use a 'j' instead of a 'g'?

I think we've already covered that, but I'll sum up with a partial list of my own complaints:

1) It's confusing for new and old players alike
2) A difference that slight is minute to the point of almost being unrecognizeable ICly
3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.

It isn't stated in any public documentation that Winrothol makes it known their people are Serjeants and not Sergeants. Therefore, I think it totally reasonable that the uninformed masses would use the term Sergeant when referring to Winrothol, and not their own term 'Serjeant'. If Winrothol would like everyone to use their own term, I'd like to see that effort made in game instead of an OOC thread telling us to use an alternate spelling on the GDB. If adequate justification can't be found to educate people in game about the difference (see the accent discussions, as well as my majick/magick and color analogies), then maybe the term should not be different at all.

[spawnloser]

1) It's confusing for new and old players alike
2) A difference that slight is minute to the point of almost being unrecognizeable ICly
3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.

To respond to your points, each.
1. I'd hope people that play a text game won't be too confused by the word being different.  It does take some amount of literacy to play a text based game well.
2. So?  I mean, to be honest, how do you know?  Do you speak Sirihish?  In Sirihish, it could sound much different.
3. So?  It doesn't have to be.  It has internal consistency.  Vendyra specifically told me, when I played in Winrothol that she knew what the style sheet said and she was spelling it 'Serjeant.'  It's been that way forever.  Changing it now would more than likely be quite annoying, as I can be relatively sure there is atleast one object in game that uses the word 'Serjeant' in it.  Good luck finding it, though.

[Morfeus]

3) It's inconsistent with every single other organisation in the game.

For me, that is just another reason why NOT to change it.
*shrug*

[Supreme Allah]

I for one cannot believe such a pointless argument has gone on for seven pages.

[Stroker]

I'll go ahead and derail it, then.

I think the larger question is, Tuluki are communist scum.

Screw you, asshole; that's not even a question. No one bashes communism, damn it - NO ONE!!!!!

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Cale_Knight]

1. I'd hope people that play a text game won't be too confused by the word being different.  It does take some amount of literacy to play a text based game well.

I wouldn't be confused. I'd just assume the clan was made of folks who don't know how to correctly spell "sergeant."

I once played in a clan where the lieutenant constantly spelled it "sargeant." Never once did it cross my mind that it might be some kind of wierd clan-only spelling of the word.

In a few weeks this thread will be gone and nobody outside of Winrothol will remember. Or care.

[Guy Who Started Thread]

Nitpicking on why something is spelled differently (explaining on the first page of this thread as being the direct result of a different pronunciation) is just being silly, and should just be left in-game, or noted in the proper documentations that the Winrothol are proud little bastards of saying the word "Sargeeant" rather than "Sar-gent".

I've been trying to stay in my hole and leave this argument up to you all, but some of you are concocting untruths.  Do you know -why- I chose to post this thread, to simply remind people of this different spelling?  (And it was an idle though at that) It wasn't because I, or any other Winrothol Serjeant, am nitpicking or demanding.  The reason I finally crawled out of my cave and posted this thread was because, after playing in Winrothol for well over a year and a half, I have been corrected time and time again for spelling a title the proper way.  Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to be corrected oocly for spelling something the way it is spelled in the Clan Docs?  I have had peoples say to me ooc, "It's sergeant, not serjeant, bud."  They address me as if I'm some child, but I am not.  Even when they revert to the more commonly used spelling, I know they are thinking behind that computer screen, "this guy doesn't know how to spell."  I posted this thread because my observation was that few people knew the correct spelling, and that they would not know the correct spelling unless I posted it here.  Judging by the seven pages of responses, I figure many of you know now, so it seems this tact has been effective.  I am not saying that I agree with Serjeant being spelled with a J, that I want serjeant to be spelled with a J, or that I think Serjeant being spelled with a J sound differently than sergeant being spelled with a G.  What this post was meant to do was simply inform.  With that said, I'm glad that we have had this discussion.  It was a good discussion about language, its origins, and its clarity, and I'm sure it will effect decisions the staff makes.

[Ritley]

Isn't 'Serjeant' just the British spelling for Sergeant?

If not, I think it's absolutely silly that every single clan in the game with a Sergeant-like rank uses 'Sergeant' except Winrothol.  Winrothol should conform or other clans should be changed so this makes more sense.

Until then, I honestly don't see a reason to bother putting a J instead of a G.  It's the exact same word and means the same thing.

Nah Larrath, I've always spelt it Sergeant. Don't think Serjeant is british.

[ShaiHulud]

Geez, this G, J thing is enough to keep me, and maybe others, from even playing in Winrothrol.

The Byn sergeant says "It's shit not shet..but fuck if I care, just clean it up."

[My 2 sids]

The Byn sergeant says "It's shit not shet..but fuck if I care, just clean it up."

This is pronouced differently because short I and short E are two different sounds.


However, as any middle school English teacher would correct...  G followed by an E, I, or Y  is pronouced exactly the same as "J"

A correct analogy would be  "It's gym not jym"...

Color, Colour, whatever... don't people have better things to discuss??

[mansa]

You should not be correcting anyone's spelling using the OOC channel.

OOC     (Communication)

This command is exactly like the say command, except that where say is used to express "in character" (IC) speech, the ooc command is used for "out of character" (OOC) speech. The only other important difference is that say will always be translated for language differences and ooc will not.

Think before you use ooc. It is not intended for conveying IC information, nor for discussions of the game mechanics, nor for extended roleplaying debates, nor for getting around language barriers.

It can have a detrimental effect on those around you, jarring them from the atmosphere they've built up. If you have some comment to make, often the OOC bulletin boards, e-mail to the game account, or the web discussion board are more appropriate forums.

Please note that any conversation with an immortal (a member of the staff) is automatically "out of character."

Syntax:
   ooc <message>

   Examples:
   > ooc Sorry, I have to go irl now.
   ("irl" means "in real life.")

   > ooc afk
   ("afk" means "away from keyboard" and generally means that the player
   has had to attend to something, but will be back very shortly.)

   Notes:
   Try to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never.
   Imagine what a movie would be like if the actors and actresses kept
   breaking out of their roles all the time--the movie would be awful.

   Never ever use the ooc command to convey IC information. This is looked
   upon very poorly by staff members.

   See also:
   gone, say, tell, wish

I feel for the original poster.  I should be able to spell things however I want to, and not have to have IN GAME consequences because I'm spelling things differently.
I do believe, also, that there should be standards put forth for all clans in regards to the spelling of the ranks, If and only If they are using the English Term they want to.  There should be no 'privates' higher than 'jenerals'

[EvilRoeSlade]

Screw you, asshole; that's not even a question. No one bashes communism, damn it - NO ONE!!!!!

It's a question alright, and the answer is hell yes!

What's a matter pinko?  Is AMERICA not good enough for you?  Huh?  Huh?