Serjeant with a J

[Larrath]

According to Dictionary.com, Sergeant and Serjeant are pronounced identically.  Honestly, I just think this entire this is ridiculous.

"Winrothol's Sergeants are called Serjeants with a tiny emphasis on the J sound.  Find out IC why it is that way".  For one, how the hell are people going to find out IC about it?  It's not conceiveable, to me, that people would treat 'Serjeant vs. Sergeant' as anything beyond the basic accent of whoever is speaking.  And even if you do ask, who is going to be capable of answering?  Probably not the Serjeants, since they're illiterate!  So are nobody characters supposed to go to Winrothol nobles and ask them: "Excuse me, Chosen Lord, but I've noticed that when most of your people refer to their immediate commanding officer, they put a little emphasis on that gjj' sound, why is that?".
Come on.

I've already touched on my second point earlier - this society is largely illiterate, and those who are literate don't really have an interest in teaching the literates.  I think that without a justified reason to emphasize that J, Winrothol's Serjeants would be addressed as Sergeants until nobody even remembered it wasn't the case.

It's not comfortable, for me, to type Serjeant.  It breaks my concentration and I believe it also contributes to the endless variants of Sergeant-related typos out there.  I don't see how such a tidbit could matter or even affect anything IC and I don't see why it should - Serjeant is pretty much just the British spelling of the word Sergeant, and Armageddon uses American spelling.

It's like correcting people to say "Grey Forest" instead of "Gray".  Because these people aren't writing the word "grey", it's impossible and totally impractical to correct them.  They sound the same and, once again, there are thousands of different accents out there.

[LauraMars]

Wow, a lot is being accomplished in this thread!  :roll:

[Guy Who Started Thread]

Wow, this discussion has gone wild, and I appreciate the comments on both sides. It has certainly let us all know how exactly this altered spelling is viewed; and just to clarify, no Winrothol serjeant that I have ever met has ever tried to correct someone for this spelling; however, whether you agree with its reasoning or not, serjeant with a J is indeed how this word is spelled, and should you choose to turn a blind eye and spell Serjeant, Sergeant, you are, in fact, misspelling the word.  If a person's name is ERick (as it can be spelled) not Eric, one is not addressing the same person by simply picking the more commonly used of the two, and one is indeed misspelling that person's name.  How big of a slight is it to refuse to spell sergeant this way?  Not very, but the slight adds up overtime, and just like making careless typos makes one look inept and inexperienced, so does misspelling this title.  Whether one pronounces this rank with an "English G" or a "French J" is not so important.  What is important is that the two words –are- spelled differently.  No, if you spell the Grey Forest, the Gray Forest, no one is going to get on you about it; however, if you do spell it correctly, we will all think more highly of you.  Personally, I don't care if you spell it Sergeant or Serjeant.  Just know it –is- spelled Serjeant.  The very reason this topic was brought up here is because it's not the sort of discussion that should be conducted IC IMO and because this topic is in debate elsewhere and the feedback is helpful.  I don't necessarily agree with this spelling, but I would be appreciative if you used it.

[Cale_Knight]

How pretentious. Now it's an insult to spell the word the archaic way you want it to be spelled? Are you going to request that this thread be stickied, or are you just going to repost this topic every two weeks to make sure nobody forgets and to ensure that newbies understand?

This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.

[Attana]

This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.

Agreed.  This thread is.. annoying.  If one prefers to spell Sergeant with a 'g', let 'em.  It's the way I spell it, and the way I'll continue to spell it.  I personally don't see the difference between 'g' and 'j'.   :roll:

If anything... don't you think this should've been posted and discussed on the Winrothol boards?  Since it only matters to Winrothols?

[Larrath]

How pretentious. Now it's an insult to spell the word the archaic way you want it to be spelled? Are you going to request that this thread be stickied, or are you just going to repost this topic every two weeks to make sure nobody forgets and to ensure that newbies understand?

This is not the preference of the original poster - from what they wrote, this is what the Winrothol documentations state.  This is also the first time I've seen this sort of thread, and I've been around for a couple of years already.

This thread never should have been opened in the first place. I doubt anyone outside of winrothol cares, and anyone inside of winrothol has access to the clan-only forum.

I don't see what's wrong with this thread.  Actually, the original poster surprised me - I actually forgot we used to have discussions here that weren't just heated arguments.

Though I still don't agree with the reasons for spelling Sergeant with a J and would still like to see it retconned out of existence (and most certainly don't agree that not using the J version should ever be seen as an insult since the pronounciation is identical), I will make an effort to start using J's instead.

[Cale_Knight]

I just hate the idea that somehow you're slighting someone if you dare to spell the word the way you'd reasonably expect it to be spelled.

And if nobody's going to be insulted by the IC pronunciation, as the original poster stated, how in the world is he going to be insulted by an OOC spelling?

Whole can o' worms.

[Morfeus]

It is funny how one single letter makes people angry. I wonder what would happen if one starts the thread about "grey, not gray" or "magick, not magic".

[ale six]

So I'm reading this thread and I'm wondering why House Winrothol is so special that they get to use alternate spellings on a word spelled consistently the same everywhere else in the game.

I don't think it looks cool or unique, I think it's confusing.

Suppose Borsail decides they want to rename the Wyverns to Wyyverns, or House Tor wants to become the Tor Skorpionz. The words are pronounced slightly different, so shouldn't they be able to use them?

Just delete the misspelling.

EDITed to be a little nicer.

[Delirium]

What was the big deal again?

/me wanders off, dazed and confused.

[Morfeus]

Just delete the misspelling, it's ridiculous. I for one am not going to ever misspell a word...

Magic?  :twisted:

....

Seriously, I am surprised (and annoyed) how heated the discussion is. Maybe you consider it silly, ridiculous or anything else, but it's part of the game. Some people might consider spelling "magick" with K silly. Some people might consider whole game concept ridiculous. Someone might dislike name "Allanak". And I really wonder if there is a thread about all names and places of Armaggedon created- would you all find an agreetment on pronouncution of words? Would you jump up and scream: "Silly! Stupid! Ridiculous!" just because you have different opinion too?

I would love to see people stop using GDB to complain and screaming about IC things which should be changed according their OOC opinion.  Too often I see people in heated OOC discussion about things which are IC, have IC reasons and could be changed ICly. If we follow this trend, in few months we will see a thread claiming "This templar is so unfair, he should be removed from the game! Not removing him is stupid, ridiculous and silly! Do it now!" (Because, you know, who would spend time in such a big and dangerous and probably never-done thing as assassinating templar IG. It is easier to demand such thing OOCly, no?)

I am not used to complain on GDB - I believe this is the first time I do so. I actually started to use GDB just lately. But I have to say this trend deeply disappoints me.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't see how your arguement is related to this Morfeus.

If there was a scrac in the north and a scrab in the south. Though they have the same description, they are "ICly" different doesn't matter. One of them should be changed to create uniformity and less a chance of getting confused OOC.

Since Sargeant and Sarjeant is pronounced the same and just written differently, it shouldn't matter to the common populace, they can't write.

[Pantoufle]

However pedantic this topic may seem, I have to admit some interesting points have been raised on both sides of the argument.  Armageddon MUD is 100% text, nothing more.  If there's anything players are going to quibble about in a text based world, you can bet on it being spelling!  Is that nitpicking?  Maybe, maybe not.

For me, the trouble, confusion, and awkwardness of 'Serjeant' is that -- like so many have said before me -- it's a word often mispelled already.  New players seeing this will instantly write it off as a typo.  Imagine if the Guild decided that their thieves were to be called (spelled) 'theifs'.  My god!  Can you imagine the kind of audience and debate it would recieve on this discussion board!?  What's worse, the IC Fascists would come marching in telling you to find out IC why the heck they're referred to as theifs and not thieves (when there isn't any IC explanation to begin with) faster than you can blink!

The only quibbling I really see about this thread is the following:

1) Quibbling over quibbling.  Guess what, boys and girls, we're allowed to disagree.  Vehemently at that.  If someone strongly states their dislike for some part of the game, they're not complaining.  They're discussing.  The only person doing the complaining, in these instances, are those who say "Oh, god, stop complaining!"

...and 2) This 'Find Out IC' nonsense which pollutes the discussion board more than the most derailed thread in existance.  9 times out of 10 the statement 'Find out IC' has no relevance to the topic, nor is it some deep dark secret.  Half of the Find Out IC rubbish I've ever seen shoved down our throats is something which, ironically, exists in a help file somewhere if you look deep enough.  And I'm sorry but whatever Winrothol's reason for spelling Sergeant differently is, it's not some deep dark secret shrouded in mystery that would spoil the game if we all found out.  Quite often what we're being suggesteded to 'Find out IC' a) is impossible and b) wouldn't be IC to try finding out in the first place!  Maybe the expression you're looking for is 'Don't Ask'?  'Find out IC' is an explosively misued and overused phrase which invokes nausea, rather than posing as a polite suggestion (which it's not).  If I had the calories to waste, I could write an entire essay on what I now call: FOICP (the Find Out IC Phenomena).

[Aldiel]

However pedantic this topic may seem, I have to admit some interesting points have been raised on both sides of the argument.  Armageddon MUD is 100% text, nothing more.  If there's anything players are going to quibble about in a text based world, you can bet on it being spelling!  Is that nitpicking?  Maybe, maybe not.

For me, the trouble, confusion, and awkwardness of 'Serjeant' is that -- like so many have said before me -- it's a word often mispelled already.  New players seeing this will instantly write it off as a typo.  Imagine if the Guild decided that their thieves were to be called (spelled) 'theifs'.  My god!  Can you imagine the kind of audience and debate it would recieve on this discussion board!?  What's worse, the IC Fascists would come marching in telling you to find out IC why the heck they're referred to as theifs and not thieves (when there isn't any IC explanation to begin with) faster than you can blink!

The only quibbling I really see about this thread is the following:

1) Quibbling over quibbling.  Guess what, boys and girls, we're allowed to disagree.  Vehemently at that.  If someone strongly states their dislike for some part of the game, they're not complaining.  They're discussing.  The only person doing the complaining, in these instances, are those who say "Oh, god, stop complaining!"

...and 2) This 'Find Out IC' nonsense which pollutes the discussion board more than the most derailed thread in existance.  9 times out of 10 the statement 'Find out IC' has no relevance to the topic, nor is it some deep dark secret.  Half of the Find Out IC rubbish I've ever seen shoved down our throats is something which, ironically, exists in a help file somewhere if you look deep enough.  And I'm sorry but whatever Winrothol's reason for spelling Sergeant differently is, it's not some deep dark secret shrouded in mystery that would spoil the game if we all found out.  Quite often what we're being suggesteded to 'Find out IC' a) is impossible and b) wouldn't be IC to try finding out in the first place!  Maybe the expression you're looking for is 'Don't Ask'?  'Find out IC' is an explosively misued and overused phrase which invokes nausea, rather than posing as a polite suggestion (which it's not).  If I had the calories to waste, I could write an entire essay on what I now call: FOICP (the Find Out IC Phenomena).

Well stated, Pantoufle.  Also, my opinion is that these forums are just the places for these sorts of OOC debates.  Someone said that we should conclude these sorts of things IG?  I really don't agree.  Debates like this about textual elements of the game should be conducted here.  I'd have to say this is a good thread, actually--for the most part.   I don't think it should be spell with a J, but I'm respectful enough to use it.

[spawnloser]

You know what my problem with this entire discussion is?

The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.

Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING.  That is an accurate spelling of the word.

Seriously, people.  If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it.  The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation.  Follow the documentation, people.  That's why we have it.

[Aldiel]

You know what my problem with this entire discussion is?

The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.

Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING.  That is an accurate spelling of the word.

Seriously, people.  If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it.  The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation.  Follow the documentation, people.  That's why we have it.

Nods in agreement.

[Morfeus]

I am sorry, I don't see things like "It's silly, ridiculous and stupid!" as an argument which helps the discussion. And all what I was trying to express is (here, let me repeat it once again): If there is IC thing with IC reason behind, the best thing how to change it (or support it) is to approach it ICly. There is many, many possibilites how to do it ICly and every each of them seems to be more fun than open GDB and state "This is ridiculous!" (but true, most of them would be also more dangerous).

As Spawnloser said, as long as it is in documentation, it is not misspelling. And if the documentation says it is pronounced differently than Sergeant, than I believe that it is pronounced differently on Zalanthas.

EDITed to add: And thinking about it, if you are unsure if there -is- some  IC reason behind the thing, is generally always more fun to presume there is. In case "If there was a scrac in the north and a scrab in the south..." - perhaps the northern scrac was created by evil defiler and therefore is different than scrab? Perhaps northern scrac is something as scrab with major inner mutations - being poisonous, with magick abilities or something? If the name is different, there has to be some difference! What if it is a part of new Muk Utep's army and its appearance, similar to scrab, is just a clever cover?

[Cale_Knight]

Seriously, people.  If you spell it as 'Sergeant' YOU are the one misspelling it.  The documentation DOES spell it as 'Serjeant'...and deliberately not spelling it that way, just because you don't like it, shows that you are not willing to follow the documentation.  Follow the documentation, people.  That's why we have it.

The documentation also once had corporals ranking higher than sergeants in the nakki militia, and some people made arguments identical to this one.

It got changed anyway.

The documentation is not the word of god.

[Cenghiz]

The documentation also once had corporals ranking higher than sergeants in the nakki militia, and some people made arguments identical to this one.

It got changed anyway.

.... Yes... And it was not a mispelling or a simple mistake or anything till it got changed. Till it got changed, corporals ranked higher than sergeants in Allanaki Militia.
Till it gets changed, sergeants are sergeants and serjeants are serjeants.
IRL, I view many aspects of this game as serious mistakes. I'm a fucking idiot sexist who believes men are better than women, I avoid homosexuals and view it as something... unnatural, the first two examples.
But IG, even though I believe it's stupid IRL, a female sergeant is someone to adore and someone to obey. Every woman may be as powerful as I am and that gay PC trying to pick me up only deserves "I'm flattered by your offer, sire.. But thank you, I am really into only women."
So maybe calling a rank 'serjeant' is stupid, but you have to obey the rule till it changes.
So some of the previous replies stating the will to ignore the game's rule are.. somewhat senseless I believe. But of course it's nice to debate and try to change the rule, as long as the game develops to the better.
My idea? Eh, I believe Serjeant is.. somewhat annoying for the newbies or unaware -I didn't know it before this post- folks like I am. It should be changed? I believe so. But I will call serjeants 'serjeant' till the rule changes.

[spawnloser]

Thank you, Cenghiz...your post reminded me...

You want this one changed, contact the Winrothol IMMs.  They may decide to leave it the way it is or change it.  Either way, follow the documentation.

[Pantoufle]

You want this one changed, contact the Winrothol IMMs. They may decide to leave it the way it is or change it. Either way, follow the documentation.

Sir yes sir!

But, seriously...  Attempting to silence the players by directing them to the staff, and only the staff, is not a solution.  Think of how many wonderful and inventive changes have been implemented by the staff because enough players voiced their opinion right here on the GDB.  Yet you would have us shut up, speak directly to the staff in an anonymous unheard outlet, and obediently follow the Ten Commandments (er, I mean "documentation") without question.  

Players ought to be encouraged to share their opinion on matters (however minute and trivial), not discouraged.

[Cenghiz]

Of course any topic could be discussed. What nerves me is the attitude: "This is stupid. I won't do it."
I believe the laws enforcing me to marry only one woman are stupid, but I have to obey, right?
I can try to form a community and try to fight for my legal right to marry multiple women at once, but I can't say "This is stupid, I'll do what I want." and ignore the rule. Or in jail, I may become the wife of a few men at once, eh?

[mansa]

edited on the afterthought.

reposted here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=183326#183326

[chang]

The people that don't want to spell the word as 'Serjeant' can complain all they want, but so far, it hasn't changed the documentation.

Also, for the last time, STOP CALLING IT A MISSPELLING. That is an accurate spelling of the word.

Agreed.

'Anakore' is not only a misspelling.  It is a misspelling of a word that doesn't even exist.  Draw conclusions.

[ale six]

If my last post came off as too heated, I apologise.

My argument isn't so much that I consider the alternate spelling stupid in itself as that I consider it inconsistent (and stupid due to inconsistency).

Comparisons to ignoring parts of the documentation like sex equality or homosexuality don't hold. If you spell the word sergeant, serjeant, or sarrgent, you are still not violating any in-character documentation. ICly, your PC still made the exact same phoenetic sound, and since no one can "read" your speech, there is no problem. Violating the docs would be refusing to address anybody by the Private/Corporal/Sergeant/Lieutenant rank system, and instead coming up with something different to use.

The magic/magick argument does have a better comparison to this debate. On the other hand, magick is used consistently with the same spelling everywhere, and no one seems to have a problem with the extra k. But let's consider another spelling-related scenario:

What if all elementalists used "magick", except for a certain theoretical clan of elementalists who wanted to distinguish themselves by calling their powers "majick" instead. Suppose then somebody from this clan posted on the GDB saying "remember folks, when you're talking about our powers, it's majick with a J". They further defend the difference between spelling majick and magick with arguments that they words are pronounced differently, or that there are documents using the majick spelling, or even that the differences are some huge secret, find out IC! And if, dear fools, you use magick instead of majick, we'll look down on you and your poor spelling.

I hope that this example helps cast light on how silly and confusing using alternate spellings for things is. I don't really care if a document uses "majick" instead of "magick" or "Serjeant" instead of "Sergeant" somewhere, in my mind they're alternate spellings of the exact same phoentic word, and can be used interchangably (but for the sake of consistency and uniformity, one should be chosen over the other and used everywhere.)

Even experienced players all have much, much more important things to remember and be thinking about during play than which clans spell which words which way. It also makes things that much more confusing for the poor new players trying to sort everything out in the game world. I see no benefit given in tradeoff for the added confusion, and so I stand by my earlier statements that I won't perpetuate it and I wish it would be deleted.