How to react to those petite f-me's?

[Synthesis]

LoD is right on the money.  I couldn't have said it better, myself.

Intrepid, you need to pause for a moment and consider that you're essentially reasoning backward from assumed prejudicial behavior, instead of thinking forward from concrete principles.  As a result, you are exhibiting your own brand of unreasonable prejudice...against those who don't like beautiful PCs.  You also need to consider alternative explanations, because  a certain PC's hatred of beautiful PCs is not necessarily based on OOC motivations.  As LoD explained quite nicely, there can be many different reasons behind the formation of such an attitude.

Yes, purely gender-based prejudice, a priori, is unacceptable.  However, gender-based prejudice -can- become part of any PC's psyche, given the right set of circumstances.

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Personally, I think you should take some extra time and re-read LoD's posts, because he makes valid points.  Your rebuttal, on the other hand, didn't seem consistent or reasonable at all.

[Intrepid]

Cleared up indicates that something has been cured, solved, or removed.  As this subject continues to be debated in the forums, I hardly think this is the case.  What Sanvean has done is comment on what she believes social views and beliefs should be in line with the Zalanthan documentation.  That doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which was that this problem stems from players using stereotypical models of Western "beauty", and other players reacting to them.

Firstly, if you have to scrutinize semantics, you've hit a dead end in your thinking.
The debate is going despite the fact that multiple staff members have, over the
course of these ongoing "debates", stated their stance rather firmly.  It's been ignored
because there are very steadfast misogynistic players ignoring it in favor of their
personal viewpoints rather than the presented setting material.  Beauty is in the eye
of the beholder, so when you or anyone else sees an alleged f-me pc, it's your fault,
not the fault of the person writing the desc.  You chose to see something that is not
necessarily there, which has everything to do with the issue.

So you claim that someone in game cannot draw a correlation from the actions of a female street whore in the Gaj with the actions of a female noble's aide?  So how are we to compare anyone if not through direct reference to in game characters of different class, economic, and social standing?  No, it does have bearing.  The Earth "example" is of how such a correlation is made on our planet between humans.  Such a correlation is easily made with Zalanthan models intact and in place with exactly the same outcome.

Prostitution being looked down on is not a Zalanthan trait, actually.  There aren't any
sexual hangups toward prostitution and no laws against it.  This is a distinctly
Earth bias you're bringing into the game based on your own sexual hangups, LoD.
And for that matter, a noble's aide is not necessarily a concubine.  It's an assistant that
could perform any number of tasks based on the qualities of that individual.  For all you
know, that "pretty f-me" you've been obsessing about was hired to be a psionic
hitman.  You're judging pcs in game based on your out of game 21st century views,
and it makes you unable to truly immerse yourself in the gameworld as a result.

I agree.  Too bad I didn't say prejudices based on gender.  You assumed that since you seem to be under the belief that I "disagree" with the fact that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas, even though I've stated that directly elsewhere in my post.  I distinctly outline the factors being one's actions, appearance and demeanor.  Prejudices are based on interactions with a similar people or group of people.  You don't seem to have a grasp on the concept that someone can build prejudices solely within the game environment that are NOT based on RL, Earth or any reference to gender.

You didn't need to say preferences on gender, since I said it for you and stated multiple
times why it applied to the situation.  Again, you're ignoring the content and scrutinizing
choice of words.  I'm saying sexism exists in the playerbase and is being transferred
into the game via this outlet of claiming that allegedly attractive pcs, again judged purely
on a western player's mindset, is somehow made for netsex and is less of a character in
validity, thereby demonstrating a prejudice (see definition please) that is ooc rather
than ic and being brought into the game as a foreign influence that does not belong.
I am all for prejudice if it fits with the setting.  Racism, classism, territorialism are
the ones that fit.  Gender bias does not, and it is the foundation, like it or not, of this
entire f-me terminology.  Your distinctly outlined factors of appearance and behavior
are what you bring into the game as a player, not your character, and has no place in
this setting.

I'm not ignoring anything the Imms have laid forth, in fact many of my points are supporting it.  If you reread my post with the understanding that I am meeting the OP's question with specific regard to female PC's and not addressing male PC's, then you will understand much of what I say agrees with you, but your comments are one sided and geared to protect a group for which you obviously have strong feelings.

They do not.  Please reread Sanvean's post.  I know you're meeting the OP's question,
and the entire question finds its foundation in the idea that his/her inability immerse
him/herself into the game world properly should mean that others are punished
for his/her lack of interpretive abilities in regard to perceiving Zalanthas through his/her
character's eyes.  My comments are not one-sided.  If anything, I've had a long time
to observe this situation and found that it's the result of weak roleplaying, nothing
else.

My contention is that "pretty" people are not sarosanct from prejudice, mistreatment or loathing.  If my character meets 5 "pretty" characters, male or female, and 4/5 of them exhibit sexually aggressive behavior that in some way effects my character in a negative fashion (i.e. getting a promotion over me because they ASSUME it's because of a sexual relationship rather than tangible merit), then what will happen is a natural prejudice forms against future "pretty" people based purely on in-game interaction.

And my contention is that you're bringing in a prejudice based on 21st century bias
that you are unable to purge yourself of in order to properly play your character and
his/her viewpoints, likes and dislikes.  The fact that someone was promoted over
you and you blame the more attractive pc rather than the individual who did the
promoting is a farce designed to place all responsibility on female pcs because some
guy was typing one-handed while he was playing.  Again, beauty is in the eye of
the beholder, so blame the beholder and not the beauty.  Even worse is the fact that
you actually think assumptions being brought into this conversation is a valid point,
and the epitome of exactly the problem with the entire f-me slang.  The entire situation
is an assumption based on abject chauvinism that attempts to distract blame for your
personal, sexual hangups away from yourself and to someone you perceive as having
an unfair advantage--when it might not be the case at all.  At some point, you and other
all the other misogyinistic players out there have to start taking responsibility for your
own hormones.

Argue it all your want, it's what happens in any life, real or imagined, Earth or Zalanthas, male or female.

It happens on Earth, so it must be on Zalanthas too?  I'm shocked to be seeing such
a lack of understanding of this basic tenet of Zalanthan culture from someone who
had played here as long as I have.  Holy merde...  :shock:

[Intrepid]

Intrepid, you need to pause for a moment and consider that you're essentially reasoning backward from assumed prejudicial behavior, instead of thinking forward from concrete principles.  As a result, you are exhibiting your own brand of unreasonable prejudice...against those who don't like beautiful PCs.  You also need to consider alternative explanations, because  a certain PC's hatred of beautiful PCs is not necessarily based on OOC motivations.  As LoD explained quite nicely, there can be many different reasons behind the formation of such an attitude.

The same kind of rationale could exist for kank-riding elves too.  Any rationale you
try to sneak into the equation to justify your brand of play in this regard is the exact
same.  The difference between my dislike of people disliking beautiful pcs and the dislike
of beautiful pcs itself is the fact that mine is entirely based ooc and never enters the game,
while the dislike of beautiful pcs is a problem that is exhibited constantly in game as
a result of outside, personal influences and sexual hangups that have no place in the
gameworld.

Yes, purely gender-based prejudice, a priori, is unacceptable.  However, gender-based prejudice -can- become part of any PC's psyche, given the right set of circumstances.

Like the kank-riding elves, there can be any slew of excuses as to why someone will
try to make this acceptable when it's not.  Gender-based prejudice, regardless of your
personal reasoning, never has and never will have a place in the game culture
according to the docs that define the gameworld.

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Your judgement of why someone makes the pc is guesswork designed to rationalize
why you mistreat female, and only female pcs, with contempt for being what you
perceive as attractive.  Your theories are groundless and designed to give you license
to be misogynistic in a world where such behavior should not exist.

Personally, I think you should take some extra time and re-read LoD's posts, because he makes valid points.  Your rebuttal, on the other hand, didn't seem consistent or reasonable at all.

I read it three times, actually.  The fact that you can't even give me that validity in
passing because I absolutely disagree with his and your viewpoints is proof enough
that you are willing to rationalize a misogynistic license at all costs.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with Intrepid on this issue. If a woman is promoted over you and your Pc goes with "she slept her way to the top" everytime, or even most of the time, then that is OOC brought IC, IMO. If anotehr male gets promoted over you, would you think, "Fuck, he slept his way to the top?" I doubt it, I really do. If you use the same excuse for both, awesome.

[Barzalene]

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Slightly off the mark, but I was shocked, really shocked at how true this was. I played a male (granted half-elf) and the difference in the way he was treated was huge. Not just in the way that people weren't as open and kind, not just that he didn't have the advantages a female pc has (and I've played some pretty nasty female pc's that wouldn't be the type to get offerered advantages) but he was far more able to just fade into the background. With a male (granted half-elf) pc I had to really work for pc interaction in a way I never had to with any female pc. People are more willing to just rp with female pcs. Period.

[Intrepid]

Slightly off the mark, but I was shocked, really shocked at how true this was. I played a male (granted half-elf) and the difference in the way he was treated was huge. Not just in the way that people weren't as open and kind, not just that he didn't have the advantages a female pc has (and I've played some pretty nasty female pc's that wouldn't be the type to get offerered advantages) but he was far more able to just fade into the background. With a male (granted half-elf) pc I had to really work for pc interaction in a way I never had to with any female pc. People are more willing to just rp with female pcs. Period.

Which is really, truly a failure of the players being unable to immerse themselves
truly and fully into the gameworld.  These are the people who will always be, in some
way, on the outside of the game looking in...and I feel really sorry for them.

[mansa]

I searched the docs.  The only one I found regarding sexism was this one, written by ShaLeah.  The link is right off the front page, and not mentioned anywhere else, yet it's something that people feel is one of the more important things of ArmageddonMUD.

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

"Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules."

I find sex disgusting so never do it in front of me.  If you feel that you're harmed or losing IC results because I won't sex you, it's your fault.

[Sanvean]

I find these threads tiresome because over and over again I see the same points being made.  FWIW, there is a phenomenon that I have seen happen multiple times in the game: the majority of female leaders are assumed to have slept their way into that position, regardless of their description or their actions, in a way that does not happen with the majority of male leaders - in fact, I don't know that I've ever seen the opposite happen, and a male PC be assumed to have slept his way to power.  Male PCs that have a lot of sex tend to not get stigmatized or talked about for it in the way that female PCs are.  I find this inexpressibly tiresome in both its IC and OOC permutations, but I will point out that in RL people of either gender tend to get their way more often if they are physically attractive.  I would presume it's the same in the game world.

Often the attractiveness of a character tends to get conflated with the language in their description (or the quality of their emotes): if it is poetic or particularly graceful, some people will equate that with seductiveness.  Several people have touched upon this phenomena.

Some of this cloud of verbiage seems to boil down to whether or not there should be attractive people on Zalanthas.  Sure there should - look at any fantasy novel and you will see that some characters are beautiful, some are not.  I would expect the same on our planet.  There are some unrealistic things: people may have perfect teeth or skin in a way that may not reflect the world as accurately as one would hope, but that's not something I want to see in any form or shape policed.  

But I'm locking this thread before we get more and more of the same, because it's discouraging to see some of the same tired assertions made over and over, despite past refutations.  To my mind, the whole f-me term is pretty offensive in the assumptions that it makes, and it seems to me that of the hundreds of female PCs I've seen labelled that way - some of them complex, interesting and wonderfully played characters - only a handful have demonstrated the sort of behavior that I think would merit such a name.

For me, the majority of this discussion seems to be about real world perceptions than about the game.  If a player is allowing OOC opinions to influence how they react to other characters, that's wrong.  Look at the description, assume it's valid (remember that every description you see has been checked by a staff member) and act accordingly.  As for the rest - seriously, just get over it.  There is a great readiness on the part of some of the player base to spend more time ragging on other people's play than looking at their own.  I am sure none of the readers of this thread falls into that category.

Not to mention that if some character, of either gender, uses sexuality to get ahead, that seems perfectly in keeping with a game whose motto is "Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal."  Maybe those players are actually roleplaying better than some of the people casting stones.  Just a thought.

Thanks.  See you all next week.