How to react to those petite f-me's?

[Anonymous]

How should someone react if they see a female PC with the word "delicate" or "petite" or anything like that in their sdesc?  I've seen a lot of those in my time of playing, and I don't see how that's enforcing the "no-sexism" ideology of Zalanthas.  If anything, I think there should be a lot of scarred, buff, muscular women out there instead of these graceful, lithe, skinny, modern-day celebrity types.

Should characters be looking at them weirdly, or being skeptical as to how long they'd last in the world?  It's hard not to be sexist when all the men are muscular and big, and the women are tiny and perfect.

[Vesperas]

Well, seeing as how 'petite' and the such are simply other build-types, you could try to get more male PCs to use the adjectives.

It's the ones that go into detail about the perfection of their facial features, the roundness of their breasts, etc., etc.  

Unfortunately, I've played large, burly women before, and have more often than not been given this, "Whoa, you're a big one, arn't you?" kind of look.

[Naiona]

Some very succesful aboriginal cultures in real life consist of very small people.  Assuming that someone can't take care of themselves because they are petite may get you in trouble.  They could well be swift and smart.  

It is odd to see a 'perfect' specimen of either sex surviving as a hunter or Bynner, but size shouldn't have much to do with it.  As to how to deal with anyone who is playing a 'perfect' PC, I would remind yourself that they are most likely a new player and being oocly cruel to them may well chase away a great potential RPer.  They'll get it and add scars where appropriate as they go along if you give them a little gentle IC guidance.

Lastly, you are certainly welcome here and it is not unusual for some of our players to use it - but please do know that the very term 'f-me' is offensive to some of the players and some of the staff.

[Larrath]

If I see a character who is blatantly an f-me -- that is, there purely for the mudsex -- I ignore them as much as my character allows me to.
If it looks like a new player, I act the same way I would for any other player, and mostly disregard their unrealistic appearance.

I did have a fairly ugly, lonely and isolated character who was approached by a couple of super-model PCs.  He did go with them because it's just ridiculous to turn someone down and then whine about being lonely.  I wasn't really pleased with it, on an OOC level, but that's life.

[ale six]

Instead of being sexist, be prejudiced based on somebody's apparent ability... that petite, delicate woman isn't weak because she's a woman, she's weak because she's petite and delicate and doesn't look tough. If you see petite, delicate, scrawny, skinny, or runty men, treat them the same way. And keep in mind that whatever PC demographics are, there are plenty of both strong, muscular women and skinny, delicate men running around as vnpcs in both major cities.

As has been said countless times in countless threads, not all 'perfect' pcs are there purely for the mudsex. Some may engage in it, that doesn't make it their or their player's sole goal. I admit I have seen PCs who looked like their entire purpose was to be bed toys, but these were very very rare. Having an attractive character and having mudsex does NOT make you an 'f-me'.

I think a pc's appearance should reflect their background. If you come from a hunter/miner type life, you probably should not look like a movie star. On the other hand, PCs from merchant or servant or 'upper class' type lifestyles who've been sheltered and pampered might plausibly be petite and attractive -- and there's nothing wrong with that. A character of mine who was a city type recieved several scars from something sekrit she'd been doing and had to hide them, because it just didn't make sense for someone in her role to be scarred any more than it does for a Bynner to have perfect, flawless skin.

I think outright ignoring any PC because they don't fit your conception of the gameworld is, frankly, bad play and silly. Lead by example, or make whatever assumptions your character would make, but don't pretend someone doesn't exist. That's likely to just cause frustration and drive them away.

[Larrath]

I think outright ignoring any PC because they don't fit your conception of the gameworld is, frankly, bad play and silly. Lead by example, or make whatever assumptions your character would make, but don't pretend someone doesn't exist. That's likely to just cause frustration and drive them away.

I did not mean ignore as in not reading their emotes.  I meant ignore by paying little attention to them ICly - if they make any 'romantic' advances, they're likely to find my PCs unwilling or busy.  I try not to do this with someone who also appears to be trying to learn how to play.

If I did not ignore them, well, what would the typical man do if Jennifer Lopez, Anna Kournikova or Angelina Jolie walked up to them and offered them sex?  And once you give in, you really just encourage this behavior.

I have no problem encouraging people who use Arm purely for mudsex to go elsewhere by being passive.  If they ("they" being players who aren't newbies) want to conform to the game and have mudsex ever so often, or even very frequently, I have absolutely no problem with that.
But I do have a problem with players who are willing to piss all over the game and its feel for a bit of cyber-tail.

[marko]

I'd like to point out that petite and delicate can easily be infered to mean that the character has no muscle strength and is skinny.  I wouldn't classify petite or delicate as in the fuck-me category at all.   When I see 'delicate' I assume the character is weak and probably had a life that was tough but without heavy lifting (such as a merchant's life or a well-to-do commoner) - in other words they were able to live fine enough but still didn't do well enough to eat lots.  Petite has no connotation to me with beauty - it just means that someone is small.  Small people are everywhere.

Plump characters are the characters that come from a clearly rich background.

When I meet characters in the game of any type my character reacts to them as my character would react to them.  Allowing OOC thoughts such as, "oh this character is a fuck-me" to influence your reactions is ignoring the roleplay of the situation for an OOC consideration.  Basically, in other words, that's twinking.

If people want to play a beautiful character that's perfectly fine and typically has absolutely nothing with someone trying to play a fuck-me.  The number of "fuck-me" characters I've actually encountered over my entire time playing Armageddon has probably been about five.

The rest of the beautiful characters, both male and female, have simply been beautiful characters with descriptions indicating beauty.  A description does not a character make.  

In terms of dealing with it - Your character can assume that those who are pale, clean, and well taken care of come from some position in life that allows them to be that way.  Typically that means a well-to-do commoner family (perhaps merchants or perhaps high ranked servants) where they were allowed to focus on something other than survival.  Beauty in the game, in my view (and the view of my characters) is found in chubby characters.  Chubby, well rounded, voluptuous, curvaceous, plump, rotund.. whatever - those all mean that the character has a life-style one should be envious of.

[Gaare]

Actually, in my first days in ARM, I thought all that kind of beatiful PCs are somewhat belong to an important person, noble, templar, wealthy merchat.. or simply they are slave. So, I RPed in that way.

Then as time goes, my opinion changed. In Zalanthas IMHO muscular, at least strong, males and females are found more attractive and considered as beatiful, so I RP in that way.

Even though, in some parts of Turkey I lived, description of female beauty is different then common western idea. Woman not obese, but not thin either are considered as beatiful.

I remember from my some years back, my grand-grandfather asked me if models on TV do not earn well and look so poor. Heh.

[amoeba]

I've met delicate, petite people in RL that no one in thier right mind would classify as beautiful.

[Same Kank]

Even so, the petite and delicate characters that I see all have things in their mdesc saying that their eyes are bright, they have fine, smooth faces, glistening clean hair, hands that have not seen a day's work, fair or deeply tanned skin that shows no sign of dirt ever touching it, etc.

Seriously now, you're character is a commoner on Zalanthas.  Doesn't matter how your merchant family didn't make stuff at all, but just sold stuff.  Dirt and sweat is there.  Want to look like the above desc?  You can by standing outside to tan yourself every so often, but otherwise staying inside and bathing with precious water while using Pantene Pro-V and whatever skin conditioner.  If you play a merchant who crafts or one who doesn't, you're not going to have dormant sweat glands in a desert planet and skin that repels sand from the storms.

It gets to me how you might see a tailor, woodcrafter, or jeweler perhaps that have those smooth uncallused hands.  Tailors without calluses are going to bleed a lot with all that needlework, woodcraft is a rough job on the skin, and so is working with rocks.

As for the newness of these players, the ones I've seen are by no means new by the way they act, using emotes and having an apparent familiarity with the world.

[Vesperas]

I just really, really hate "seductive" descriptions.

I'm not talking about making mention of a body build or eye color/shape, I'm talking about those descriptions that were MEANT to be read seductively.  For one, I choose what attracts my character before it enters play, and I don't like it when she is cunningly forced to notice what would normally be very mundane attributes to her.

Nor do I like reading seductive paragraphs about female PCs, when I myself am a female.  I'd read a cheesy modern American novel if I wished to do that.

As for "perfect" PCs.... how many "perfect" people do you know in real life?  Seriously.  And -WE- have cosmetic surgery, medical care, easilly-attainable acne cream, highly inexpensive soaps, moisturizers, creams, and make-ups, advanced technology, a great deal of knowledge concerning health, aging, diet, and hygeine, and very few of us have had to walk around in a sandstorm 80% of their life (the other 20% spent in a pissy barrack or infested tavern).  Yeah... and we have toilets.

It is the flaws that we love.

[Maybe42or54]

Fuck 'em.

Use them, abuse them, have a relationship with them where you always fade to black.

But don't ignore them.
That just sounds stupid. Even if I wish I could ignore other types of Pcs because they annoy me. That just isn't best for RP or the mud, IMHO.

Just because you don't want to have sex, don't make your pc sterile.

[flurry]

How should someone react if they see a female PC with the word "delicate" or "petite" or anything like that in their sdesc?  I've seen a lot of those in my time of playing, and I don't see how that's enforcing the "no-sexism" ideology of Zalanthas.  If anything, I think there should be a lot of scarred, buff, muscular women out there instead of these graceful, lithe, skinny, modern-day celebrity types.

I wouldn't presume to say how you "should" react, but I don't see anything strange about delicate or petite people, male or female, on Zalanthas.   In some ways I think skinny and lithe fit the setting more than buff and muscular do.  But I guess it depends on what the PC's lifestyle is.   Some occupations may demand a big hulking physique, but a lot don't, and for those it seems like an awful waste of resources in a world like Zalanthas.

[Tamarin]

My male PCs do not discriminate against petite females.  In fact, they do not discriminate against ANY females.  Every female PC, no matter the race or description, is a potential target for my PCs wang.

Even if it's just to fade.

[Malifaxis]

I was shocked once to find that one of my characters, a bodyguard, was considered an f'me.  It had never, ever crossed my mind that it was possible that she was 'ravingly beautiful.'

By mistake, however, I had written her up so.  I didn't have that picture in my mind, in any way, and a few people that played with me/her will attest to the fact that I didn't play her as one.  But still, I was branded as playing a f'me, and I definitely saw people treat me differently.  It was really quite sad, no matter how well I roleplayed, some people still thought of me as a pitiful, worthless f'me.

The concept of f'me differs for many people, and petite =/= wus.  Petite people can survive, and flourish, if they're smart and quick.

I'd classify Bruce Lee as a 'petite' or 'slight' person, wouldn't you?  Not a wus.

[Maybe42or54]

In the end, as I have heard so many times. People will play what they like, they can't be that horrible to Arm's environment as Imms approve these F'mes. If the answer to the word F'me is to ignore them, then I am going to apply that to things that annoy me, such as HGs that are too smart. Elves that are thieves, dwarves that are miners, and those annoying buff, bynners that talk all the shit, then disappear when a F'me goes into public so they don't have to RP with someone that just wants mudsexx.

Sounds elitest to me also.

[Jakahri]

*shrug*

I find it rather jarring, personally, when commoner pc's use makeup in their descriptions, defining voluptuous bodies and unblemished skin. That just seems very un-zalanthan to me, something that only the richest of nobles could afford.

My perception of beauty in Zalanthas is quite different than that of the masses, I suppose. I view 'beauty' in this world as having dark skin, a strong and sinewy musculature, as well as defined and toned features. Even scars and mottled defects can be alluring to my pc's, because it shows that the member of the opposite sex knows how to take care of themself and is not afraid to get "nasty".

I believe that there would be very few females or males in Zalanthas who are defined by the "western" trends of our modern day society. This, sadly, is highly unbalanced by the influx of characters who are the "exception to the rule" that us players always seem so eager to play. I myself have been guilty of this in the past.

I will not, however, stop roleplaying with a pc that I consider unfitting and jarring for the world. That is poor play on my part and, in my opinion, only denying myself and others for potential roleplay and fun.

[Morfeus]

I find it rather jarring, personally, when commoner pc's use makeup in their descriptions, defining voluptuous bodies and unblemished skin. That just seems very un-zalanthan to me, something that only the richest of nobles could afford.

Why un-zalanthan? Would not be much more fun approach them as your character would - perhaps thinking it has to be rich merchant, rich spy hiding under common clothes or even a magicker who spends his powers on being "beautiful"? I think IC approach to IC things is much more fun. I remember one my char years ago decided person X has to be a half-breed because of mdesc of that person. Soon after, whole Tuluk thought about X as about dirty breed and nothing else. And I should say I had fun with that. But sit and complain on GDB how people should not create characters like this or that? I find that quite boring.

Back to the topic - how would my character react to petite f-me PC depends on who my character is.

[Jakahri]

Why un-zalanthan?

Because there are very few players I know who will either give their characters defects or...

Eons of life on Zalanthas has warped the human appearance enough so that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace: webbed fingers or toes, hairlessness, pointed ears, long or short limbs, or skin tones in the faint blues or greys are all possible mutations upon the human form.

...adhere to the documentation and roleplay a character every now and then who has some physical flaw.

Being the exception to the rule everytime is a bore.

I'll simply restate my comment earlier then leave this thread:

I will not, however, stop roleplaying with a pc that I consider unfitting and jarring for the world. That is poor play on my part and, in my opinion, only denying myself and others for potential roleplay and fun.

I will remain IC, regardless of my ooc perceptions about a player and his/her own pc.

[Bebop]

RAAAAGH!

This conversation -again-?

Just... leave it alone.

[Naiona]

True story:

There was once a character who was paying IC for certain "vile magick" (tm) things to be done to keep themself looking young and attractive far beyond an age when such a thing should have been possible.

The staff inhabiting the magicker had fun with this character - making them jump through all sorts of hoops, forcing them to hire entire groups of the Byn and independants on hunts and mini-quests to find special items the magickers wanted and charging thousands and thousands of coins to this PC on a regular basis.

Other players complained OOCly that this character didn't seem to be aging properly.  They were told to 'explore it ICly' and instead chose to continue complaining OOCly.  A huge opportunity for blackmail, intrigue and taunting roleplay was lost because people insisted on letting their OOC perceptions color their IC perceptions.  Worse, this type of thing has happened more then once.

When you insist on looking at things your character sees through OOC glasses, the only person you are 'hurting' isn't yourself, it is the game as a whole.

[bloodfromstone]

That's an awesome set up, Naiona. Sorry to hear it fell through in the end.

As far as extremely attractive PC's go... Well, there are a lot of them out there and they're often not 'Zalanthan' in design, but I find it fairly easy to overlook. Sure, I'll have a little OOC chuckle when I see one that is really over the top, or I might roll my eyes when someone emotes their breasts bouncing. That aside, one the best characters I have ever had the priviledge to roleplay with (and others that were very good, that just don't stick out as much in my mind) was one that would be easily labelled as an f-me by reading her description. Western beauty or not, I might not still be playing the game if my first real character hadn't had a PC like that to play off of.

My point (yes, I have one) is that I understand completely why people wouldn't want to see attractive, curvy PCs all of the time. But I'd suggest giving them a chance and rolling with how your character would react. If all they want to do is mudsex and emote about their hair, feel free to try to cut them out of your character's life. Alternately, you might find someone really fun to play with, whether they fit most of our visions of the world or not.

[Spoon]

This is the best point yet. People seem to eager to leap into judging PCs on a OOC basis.

While it's difficult sometimes, I really do try to look at every PC as a character in a fantasy world, not sometime concocted by another player for a certain reason, whether they be f-me, newbie, cliched or whatever.

[Bestatte]

I've never played an overly attractive PC in Arm - they've all either had obvious flaws or been "ordinary." But eventually, (usually sooner than later) they'd get hit on. Or told they're beautiful. One in particular, I even included the word "ordinary" in her main description, to emphasize the fact that she was plain looking. I created her for the express purpose of NOT standing out in a crowd. And she was one of the more hit-on characters I had. I think it's just because she was well-written, heh.

Usually when I saw one of those types that looked like they should have a "please mudsex me!" sign posted to their forehead, I'd snicker and snort and roll my eyes - me, being me, not my character. But my character would respond to them however it was appropriate, given that "perfect" person's own RP. Sometimes it was a perfect match. Sometimes the "perfect" person would take great pains to emphasize their long luscious curved calves, or their perfect golden hair glinting in the moonlighty-light, or the perfect swell of their ample bosoms, or whatever. They were (whether on purpose or not) drawing attention to their sexuality, and in a world where sexuality ain't no big deal, someone trying to make a "big deal" out of it is gonna attract a few odd looks (or more).

As for the pale skin, one of my characters came from a tribe of dark-skinned humans outside the city. There was a whole religion written up about her people, and so I interpreted it as pale city people being infected with the city disease. The whiter their skin, the worse their infection. It was kinda fun.

[Pantoufle]

Other players complained OOCly that this character didn't seem to be aging properly. They were told to 'explore it ICly' and instead chose to continue complaining OOCly. A huge opportunity for blackmail, intrigue and taunting roleplay was lost because people insisted on letting their OOC perceptions color their IC perceptions. Worse, this type of thing has happened more then once.

I suspect some of the complainers knew the IC "explanation" but still found the idea of an ageless, pristine beauty unfitting with the game setting.  Barbie doll princesses who never age are a bit out of touch with the Armageddon MUD theme, in my opinion.

Back on topic, I don't find keywords such as 'petite' or even 'delicate' unfitting with the game setting, nor are they words synonymous with sexual or even sensuous, indeed many women (and men) can have delicate or petite builds and still be hideous to look at.  But I also recognise the "f-me" concept which thrives in most MU* environments, and Arm is no exception.  They're what I like to call the Viriannedrearl concept.  And they continually recycle themselves in the game world time and time again.

I have to give props to the player of Ysania from ages past, who started the game as your typical angelic beauty and, through the course of many IC game years, evolved into the final stages of a haggish crone, rather than finding some outlandish IC means (however well RPed they may be) of achieving "eternal beauty".  Even if such an event were well played out through lengthy "quests", it still smacks of Tolkienesque fantasy in my opinion.

The best female "beauties" in Arm, as far as I'm concerned, are those whose descriptions, while pretty, include a few minute flaws such as thick eyebrows, moles, a few crooked teeth, or a few tiny scars here and there.  Realistic beauty far outshines plastic flawlessness.  There's nothing wrong with playing an attractive character, it's simply how one goes about it that makes a lasting statement on the rest of the playerbase.