How to react to those petite f-me's?

[Maybe42or54]

Well, it goes both ways.

If they are chubby, but they can't provide for themselves, they deserve to be made fun of, in the least. If they are fat and provide for themselves, fuck yea. seXXXy.

[Cenghiz]

I had sexy and chubby characters. Sexy and wanted by women that means. I had good looking idiots about whom no women cared.

But... I should confess it's a bit different when you play a woman. When you log in with a good-looking woman, you're jumped on by three males at the bar in the first hour and men liking you increase horribly during your play. I don't know why.. I don't want to know why. I won't bother to know why. Fade...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Three of the finest roleplayers I ever had the privilege of roleplaying with had f-me descriptions - remember Ysania, Pearl and Nashi, anyone?

Neither Ysania nor Nashi belong in the same sentance as Pearl.  This comes from someone who has met and role-played with all three, Ysania and Pearl extensively, Nashi not so much.

Pearl would be an example of someone getting it right, for those of you that had met her in game.

EDIT:  I doubt any of their players would have appreciated being called f-mes.

[MorganChaos]

Y'know, I had a PC who was petite, and I was thinking of this thread specifically when I made him, cause everyone had been saying "what's with the petite girls." He was short and slender.

If there was an f-me I had who "got it right," it was the one who got it right completely by accident. I made her to roleplay a marriage and kids, so she was attractive enough for marriage, so I thought. The concept was this girl who was attractive and charismatic. She lasted less than 100 IC days before her lover killed her (politics, a breed sleeping around, especially who's associated with someone of high standing? Won't last long). I think she slept with four male PCs. Literally, I mudsexed three people in one weekend. Two days. (If you count the fades.) I tried to recreate the character to see if I could pull it off again. She lasted almost an IC months and didn't get laid once.

So f-me's rarely work. If a real f-me happens, it was almost certainly accidental.

[Synthesis]

Incidentally, I always had the hunch that Ysania and Pearl were played by the same individual.

[Cegar]

I've played a few petite males. They never got any action.

It seems the only character I have that get love are the ugly, undesireble bastards.

[MorganChaos]

I've played a few petite males. They never got any action.

It seems the only character I have that get love are the ugly, undesireble bastards.

My petite male had a boyfriend. *shrug* I am considering playing an effeminate straight guy though.

[Hymwen]

Incidentally, I always had the hunch that Ysania and Pearl were played by the same individual.

Whether or not that's true, I think that's a little inapporpriate to post, IMO. Trying not to be too much of a forum nazi, and I don't know if there are any rules regarding PC/player speculation, but if I had played two different PCs and didn't want people to know they were both me, I'd be bummed if someone suggested that it was.

I don't know if the player in question minds, and I know you said that it's just a hunch. Just saying

[Maybe42or54]

On the other hand, I believe Pearl was that Player's First Pc.

[aeshyw]

As the player of Pearl I'd like to clear up a couple of things.

One - I am not also the player of Ysania.  A prior post here is correct.  Pearl was my first PC.

Two - I made the character as a temporary "throw away" PC to get used to the game.  I read the documentation and saw that first PCs never last over a few hours, so I didn't put a lot of effort into Pearl's first description.  I never expected her to last 240 days of playtime.

That said, she was small and pretty, but did not have a well described body, or one that was particuarly hot or sexy.  It used to bug me that people called her an f-me when she put so much in-game effort, scheming, flattery, lying and bribery into what she did.  Now, I know that the term is basically ignorance and those who use it to dismiss the accomplisments of female PCs have issues that I don't care to address.

Three - Marko's earlier post is correct.  I've seen hideously ugly PCs treated as "f-me' PCs because they had well written descriptions.   Yet, male PCs with well written descriptions are often assumed to be great roleplayers.  This kind of double standard is pitiful, in my opinion.  I hope that we can grow past it as a player base.

[who's an fme]

I'm with aeshyw.  I'm playing a well-written but not so attractive PC...and get called sexy all the time.  Honestly, I don't understand it.  Just because my description is ten lines long, I must be pretty?  Because I use descriptive language?  Maybe it's just because I didn't mention breasts (meaning they must be the size of a HG's or something)?

I also played a male character that was written to be a pretty boy, city-bred wuss.  I had the attention of everyone in the city.

Really, I don't get it.  It's a double standard.

[ShaLeah]

This topic is never going to die, ever.  I have my reasons for thinking it but I don't wanna derail too much.

Here is something I've come to figure out with regards to F'me PCs - the one and only requirement for a F'me PC is... (drumroll please)

They MUST be female.

Personally I've made a huge range of looks on characters, from the (my vision mind you) drop dead gorgeous petite supple assassin to the most horribly scarred bitch EVAH - hell, my one and only dwarf (who was also really stupid) ended up marrying a HG and was murdered by a purist dwarf.

How many gypsy characters have you guys seen?  How many gypsy MALE characters have you thought of as F'me?

My point is that the term F'me is a derogatory term used for female PCs and the saddest part is that they're used by both male and female players.  It's like the mud equivalent to "skank" or "slut" or "ho".  Perfectly acceptible for males ... and if you happen to be one of the women in game getting all the male attention even though you didn't write a description TO get some, because, after all, you didn't make her THAT good looking and she wasn't created FOR that purpose PLUS it's IC! It's perfectly acceptible in game for you to have more than one lover!

I'm convinced that, just like in real life, when a female gets her panties in a bunch because of competitive feelings with another female (i.e. cattyness) she will react with the same feelings in game that she would outside of the game, suspicion, contempt and even hatred.  

Some of the characters I've played have been subject to woman-hate and I've even had one character encounter a player that had just played someone who hated my character and lo and behold, her new character hated my character too!

The unfortunate side effect of having those intense feelings while you type safe at home is that they do feel very very real. The unfortunate reason we even HAVE a term such as F'me PC is because we, you, society out here in the real world are still threatened by good looking, smart, ambitious women and we're bringing those beliefs into Zalanthas.

How do you deal with a F'me PC?

1.  Check your feelings at the door.  Are you feeling that or is your character? Would your character feel jealousy or hatred towards someone better looking, stronger, richer?  You have to be aware of where these feelings come from and act accordingly.

2.  Act IC'ly.  Would your character REALLY commit murder, risk his life and position for the "love" of his woman?  Would he go to his boss and be like 'yo Tony, Ade's with the feds and wants me to whack some bitch that's better looking, what do I do?' (I'm watching too much Sopranos).  What would the character do?

3.  Keep Zalanthan society in mind when receiving and processing information.
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

4.  If you look at a character and automatically put them into the F'me PC category give yourself a slap in the back of the head and come re-read this post.  

Remember kiddies... sex is not dirty on Zalanthas.. well it IS... but that's just cause most of us can't afford to bathe.  :wink:

ShaLeah
-who thought Fatty Tor was fucking HOT because of how well the description was written even though he was truly FUGLY...

[naatok]

I must agree that just because a character's description is that of a 'drop-dead gorgeous' or 'dangerously handsome'  or what ever....does NOT make that character a F-me character.

I have met in game, and played characters with such descriptions that are FAR from being extensions of some horny bastard's (or bitch in heat's) real life sex drive.

So if you see such characters in game, just treat them the way your character would treat someone that close to the 'Quote-unQuote' ideal of humanoid beauty (and yeah, those ideals should vary among the races).

I've had characters who are out and out rude to such beauties....not because of their beauty...but because of their style of clothing....or perhaps the obvious cushy life they've had because of their milky soft skin.

I've also had characters who would howl like rut-ready gortok when they lay eyes on the 'beauties' of Zalanthas.

Perhaps some may consider that a sexist, real-life extension.  I dunno.  IMHO it depends on the personality of the beholder.

If you as a player are averse to sexual roleplay, cool.  But DON'T treat another character in game based upon your OOC opinions of what that character is all about.  In my not so humble monkey opinion, that is far poorer roleplay then someone who creates a character because they like to roleplay sex.  *shrug*

We all have our reasons for why we play Arm.  Personally, I play just so I can KILL you evil fuckers!!!   But sometimes my characters will want to hump and grope a person BEFORE killing them.   Hrmmn.  Maybe afterwards too!
:twisted:

[MorganChaos]

Ewwww...necro...

Do I still need to smack myself for thinking f-me if I don't see it as a bad thing? Or if it doesn't really alter my reactions IG? I mean, I'll see a PC and think "heh, there's a f-me. Yay, maybe my desperately horny character can get laid." Maybe the only time it changes my opinion is when it's a badly written f-me. If it's a woman who has thin arms, thin legs, a thin stomach, and a thin chest with large breasts (I never figured that one out), yeah, I'm gonna think f-me, and OOCly I'll have some negative opinions. I'll probably treat the character like a poor commoner who probably shouldn't be wearing just that dress and give them shoes or something. Because they're crazy for walking around shoes, and obviously they're not rich enough to go without pants, so maybe I'll give them pants, too.

Just saying, I suppose I object to the "f-me is a negative term" assertion. But then, I don't really think slut is negative either, because I use it all the time, in description of myself and others. So maybe I'm weird.

[ale six]

Of all the threads to get necro'd. oi.

Morgan: The issue with the f-me label is when people take a female character with a well-written description, or a description that mentions breasts, hips, etc., and label that PC/player as someone who's only playing the game for sex. Some people may even make judgements about the player behind the PC or demean whatever accomplishments that PC makes "She wasn't that great, just slept her way to the top", etc.

I find the label both offensive and humorous, because I'm sure that the people applying it will end up underestimating the "f-me" and get burned sooner or later. At the same time, having stereotypes applied to your PC and being treated differently simply because of your desc is no fun, and I too hope we can grow past that.

[Intrepid]

It's not just a matter of growing past it either.

It's a form of ooc twinkdom, one that Sanvean has even alluded to being up there
with kank-riding elves and magick-loving bleeding hearts and well-adjusted half-elves.
And yet, it's the one rp aspect that, after ten years of trying to get on the right track,
many people still can't get past.  It's a mental handicap that is treated as the problem
of the so-called f-me rather than the problem of the biased player--when nothing could
be further from the truth.

The most pathetic thing about it is that all the alleged f-me pcs are women.  You never
see males lumped into this category because the bias never goes that far.  Before anyone
tries to tell me there are male f-me pcs, let me remind you that you're able to name
a number of female f-me pcs right off the top of your head but will always be hard-pressed
to name any male ones that didn't conveniently "earn your respect through good
rp".  I'm currently echoing the opinion of several staff members in the past, some in
response to this very thread or its direct predecessor.

Now, to clear this up once and for all:

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with depicting sexual situations.  If you disagree, it is
your hangup, plain and simple.

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with an attractive character of either gender, pale or
tanned, blemished or unblemished.  If you think they're unrealistically too perfect without
any previous information, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

:arrow:  This is not a Puritan state.  If someone slept their way to the top, good for them.
If you don't know they slept their way to the top and you guess that they did, you're living
in the wrong millenium--and it is still your hangup, plain and simple.

Memorize it, chant it before game, tattoo it backwards to your forehead, get a memory
implant if you have to--but do something to engrain it, folks.  You are otherwise roleplaying
incorrectly, and it's one of the few judgements I as a player will make in regard to
another player's performance of a character.

[Akaramu]

I once played a really pretty, petite Vivaduan with shining eyes, a shapely build, and nice hair. And a crippled foot and a four-fingered hand. She hobbled everywhere, and could not wear any shoes that would fit.

It was kind of fun.

I noticed that a lot of 'pretty' characters just tend to have a thin scar or two at most. More broken teeth, missing fingers and eyes please! (especially for fighter types).  

[Morrolan]

My bias against apparently attractive, unflawed characters extends from my RL bias against apparently attractive, unflawed people.  Which is one of the reasons I don't have cable TV.  Advertisements annoy the crap out of me.

Even when I look at my students, I feel this bias.  It's not their fault.  These students are simply products of a culture that at times seems to be all too concerned with appearances.  I reflexively find these people uninteresting, until they show some sort of depth, flaw, or concern for other people.  And of course, many do.

A pretty/attractive student who acts as if he or she deserves to be the center of attention in class, even when unprepared for it, who talks during class and generally pays no attention, will be much more likely to be noticed than one who is not pretty/attractive.  I will automatically (unless I catch myself) assume that the reason they think they can get away with this rude behavior is because they have been able to do so based on their looks.

This is unfair of me; I work to not do it.  But I still catch myself doing it...making these assumptions.  It could be all the experiences in grad school of it working the other way.

I remember being in a van with some students and professors.  One student, a well-endowed female, had every male professor in the van who was over the age of 45 wrapped around her finger.  They were hanging on her every word.  Now, I will be the first to admit, she was an excellent student.  But so were many of the other students there.

And those other students, including me, were ignored.

What does this have to do with "F-me's"?  Everything.  In our culture, looks are an asset.  There is no reason this should not be true in Zalanthas as well.  But where the OOC intrudes, when we get to choose our appearances, maybe we can choose to change the standards of attractiveness?

In a world without mass-media, regional variations in standards of attractiveness would be much more pronounced.

Morrolan

P.S. I would love some sort of auto-coding of scars based on damage taken.

[Marauder Moe]

I once played a really pretty, petite Vivaduan with shining eyes, a shapely build, and nice hair. And a crippled foot and a four-fingered hand. She hobbled everywhere, and could not wear any shoes that would fit.

Yeesh... how many of your characters did that character of mine run into?  :wink:


Anyway, this whole "f-me" thing seems to be mostly a problem on the GDB.  I've only seen a few characters in-game that would fit the stereotypical "f-me" people describe and I think most of them were approached in a manner mostly consistent with the game setting.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I like to see attractive people in game. Not unflawed, nessessarily, but pretty people. I hate this concept that everyone in Zalanthas is ugly or plain. Why the fuck would that be? There are some gorgeous women in Africa's bush, an improvished portion of an improvished country in the depths of desperation as much or more than Zalanthas. There are also some powerful, scarred women in that same bush.

There are and always will be pretty PCs. If someone emotes their tits bouncing, then they've emoted their tits bouncing. Tits bounce. I've emoted taking a leak. Does that mean I'm a f-me because I emoted something about my dick?

I think this hate for pretty PCs is super-duper lame. I have and always will advocate that PCs are the cream of the crop unless specifically designed not to be by the player themselves. This means that they are bigger, stronger, prettier, more child-baringnerr specimens of their race. I don't care what anybody's view-point on this last thing is. Unless you have a certian bent, you want to play the subject of the story. And the subject of the story is or can be more than the NPCs population is.

Pretty PCs have their place. Ignoring them is ... lame. Hating them is ... lame. And look at the final, most valid point. If they could not fit into Zalanthas, they would not get approved.

[Xygax]

Actually it is interesting (and definitely not rare) to see PCs in-game (especially female PCs) slip into a sort of gossipy "she's such a SLUT" mode when roleplaying around a so-called "f-me" PC -- or really any other female PC that seems to be getting a lot of sexual/sensual attention, or preferential treatment.

This is very much an example of OOC culture spilling into the game, and while it's a tough thing to combat internally (I know that I have struggled from time to time with my own modern biases and sense of morality, maybe less with this than with other things), it's something worth evaluating as you examine your own RP.

-- X

[LoD]

It's a form of ooc twinkdom, one that Sanvean has even alluded to being up there with kank-riding elves and magick-loving bleeding hearts and well-adjusted half-elves.  And yet, it's the one rp aspect that, after ten years of trying to get on the right track, many people still can't get past.  It's a mental handicap that is treated as the problem of the so-called f-me rather than the problem of the biased player--when nothing could be further from the truth.

It isn't really quite as black and white as you portend.  One of the issues with the prejudice against female PC's that somehow fit a stereotype involving attitudes, dress, description, or any combination thereof, is that it bleeds in from RL, on both ends.

There certainly have been, and will be, characters that are created in such a way as to illicit a response from the predominantly male playerbase in an effort to have a better chance of success.  These characters typically share similarities to Western social opinion on what is beautiful; full lips, curvy hips, long legs, slender waist, arched brows, etc...  Are these characters created because this is what the player considers beautiful?  Or are they created in such a way because that is what the player believes others consider "beautiful?".

While neither approach is inherently at fault, I believe it taps into an element of our perception that kank-riding elves, adjusted half-elves and magick lovers do not share.  Those three examples are concepts largely foreign to our RL experiences.  I'd say that the bulk of us (players) have not had to wrestle with these issues to the point where we have a significant amount of data upon which to base strong opinions.  However, all of us have been inundated with commercialism, peer pressure and social views on what is 'beautiful" and the type of jobs "beautiful" women are most commonly seen to hold. (i.e. models, trophy wives, strippers, dancers, cheerleaders).

Now, to clear this up once and for all:

No one person, or thread for that matter, will ever clear this up for one and for all because there are deeper issues here than can be solved by a simple acceptance of your criteria found below.  The problem taps into how we interpret the text of the game as well as those people responsible for encouraging the stereotypes that perpetuate these "issues" with gender roles.

Double Standards

Dave Chapelle had a bit which seems somewhat applicable to this conversation.  He talked about seeing a scantily clad woman walk into a bar and he went over to hit on her.  She became offended by his language and assumptions, saying that just because she was wearing suggestive clothing did not mean she was cheap, easy or available.

To this Dave agreed.  Just because she was wearing revealing clothing did not make her a whore.  She's right.  She's not a whore, he mentions, but she's wearing a whore's uniform.  He equated it to him wearing a policeman's outfit and being offended/surprised when people treated him like a cop.

When you (the player of a female PC) choose to describe your character in a way that makes use of suggestive language, plays on Western social concepts of beauty, and select text or movements that mimic those considered sexual, easy, cheap, or available -- don't cry wolf when someone interprets your language in a way other than how you'd like to be treated.

Yes, Zalanthas is not Earth.  Yes, players should consider if their characters would consider yours 'beautiful' by Zalanthan standards and check sexism, Western social ideals, and current day stereotypes at the door before making judgements.  But simply because there is no concept of sexism in the game does NOT mean that prejudices based on someone's actions, appearance or demeanor will not come into play as a natural part of the game.

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with depicting sexual situations.  If you disagree, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with those depictions of sexual situations resulting in a character attributing unfavorable opinions of that person as long as they are not being led by the RL motivations of the player.

:arrow: There is nothing wrong with an attractive character of either gender, pale or tanned, blemished or unblemished.  If you think they're unrealistically too perfect without any previous information, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with people who have webbed feet either, but that doesn't make them commonplace.  If you don't want to be judged as "rare" or "uncommon" then you may consider a character description that assumes the physical features more common to the gameworld.

:arrow:  This is not a Puritan state.  If someone slept their way to the top, good for them.  If you don't know they slept their way to the top and you guess that they did, you're living in the wrong millenium--and it is still your hangup, plain and simple.

There is nothing wrong with a character believing that using sex as a method of advancement is less respectable than achieving it through dedication, effort, and non-sexual rewards, nor is there is a problem with someone treating said person poorly because it inspires in them jealously, hatred, frustration, or any other negative emotion that would naturally accompany such a situation.

Memorize it, chant it before game, tattoo it backwards to your forehead, get a memory implant if you have to--but do something to engrain it, folks.  You are otherwise roleplaying incorrectly, and it's one of the few judgements I as a player will make in regard to another player's performance of a character.

Your words are not a doctrine, nor a set of laws for appropriate roleplay and largely exclude the valid and IC reactions and reasoning for negative treatment of a character.  Many people can stand to improve their treatment of female players and their PC's in the game, but there are a great many others who likewise need to temper their opinions on what is acceptable or not with a wider view of the world, its people, and the potential factors that may result in unfair, disrespectful, or hateful treatment.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

It isn't really quite as black and white as you portend.  One of the issues with the prejudice against female PC's that somehow fit a stereotype involving attitudes, dress, description, or any combination thereof, is that it bleeds in from RL, on both ends.

It's exactly as black and white as I think.  Those are stereotypes you're guessing at
based on an biased prejudice made by handful of misogynistic players who refuse to
immerse themselves fully into the game's culture.

There certainly have been, and will be, characters that are created in such a way as to illicit a response from the predominantly male playerbase in an effort to have a better chance of success.  These characters typically share similarities to Western social opinion on what is beautiful; full lips, curvy hips, long legs, slender waist, arched brows, etc...  Are these characters created because this is what the player considers beautiful?  Or are they created in such a way because that is what the player believes others consider "beautiful?".

Until you get the written and signed testimonies of every single player of these alleged
pcs, you're guessing based on your ooc bias and personal hangups.

While neither approach is inherently at fault, I believe it taps into an element of our perception that kank-riding elves, adjusted half-elves and magick lovers do not share.  Those three examples are concepts largely foreign to our RL experiences.  I'd say that the bulk of us (players) have not had to wrestle with these issues to the point where we have a significant amount of data upon which to base strong opinions.  However, all of us have been inundated with commercialism, peer pressure and social views on what is 'beautiful" and the type of jobs "beautiful" women are most commonly seen to hold. (i.e. models, trophy wives, strippers, dancers, cheerleaders).

Actually, demonizing one gender while lionizing the other because of attractiveness is
inherently at fault because one of the core cultural mandates for Arm is that the genders
are equal--any stigma placed on gender must be placed on the other, and this is not
happening.  Everything has to be scummy, dirty and ugly?  Hell, that didn't even exist
in Dark Sun, LoD.  One of the signature characters was a beautiful half-elven enchantress
named Sadira.  The fact that you bring rl examples into how the f-me stereotype is
created proves my point.  It doesn't belong in Zalanthas and only exists if you bring it
in.

No one person, or thread for that matter, will ever clear this up for one and for all because there are deeper issues here than can be solved by a simple acceptance of your criteria found below.  The problem taps into how we interpret the text of the game as well as those people responsible for encouraging the stereotypes that perpetuate these "issues" with gender roles.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it then.  Look in the archives for Sanvean's response
for more details.  It has been cleared up, just conveniently ignored by the hardcore in
advocates.

Dave Chapelle had a bit which seems somewhat applicable to this conversation.  He talked about seeing a scantily clad woman walk into a bar and he went over to hit on her.  She became offended by his language and assumptions, saying that just because she was wearing suggestive clothing did not mean she was cheap, easy or available.

To this Dave agreed.  Just because she was wearing revealing clothing did not make her a whore.  She's right.  She's not a whore, he mentions, but she's wearing a whore's uniform.  He equated it to him wearing a policeman's outfit and being offended/surprised when people treated him like a cop.

When you (the player of a female PC) choose to describe your character in a way that makes use of suggestive language, plays on Western social concepts of beauty, and select text or movements that mimic those considered sexual, easy, cheap, or available -- don't cry wolf when someone interprets your language in a way other than how you'd like to be treated.

Again, Earth culture that doesn't belong in Zalanthan methodology.  It's not the same
society.  It never will be.  This example has no bearing.  If players are unable to
control their own hormones, take it out on the player, not the person who made a pc
that you're not even sure was meant to be attractive.  It's already been proven on
here by the players themselves that quite a few horndog players mistake any lengthy
or well-written desc as being attractive.  It's happened to me as well, and I was playing
a disgusting and murderous psychotic whose desc no one even bothered to read.  It
just somehow was taken as attractive.

Yes, Zalanthas is not Earth.  Yes, players should consider if their characters would consider yours 'beautiful' by Zalanthan standards and check sexism, Western social ideals, and current day stereotypes at the door before making judgements.  But simply because there is no concept of sexism in the game does NOT mean that prejudices based on someone's actions, appearance or demeanor will not come into play as a natural part of the game.

Prejudices based on gender have no place in the game.  This has been said by the
staff over...and over...and over...and over again.

There's nothing wrong with those depictions of sexual situations resulting in a character attributing unfavorable opinions of that person as long as they are not being led by the RL motivations of the player.

Then males need to be included in that--they're not currently.  Sorry, until both genders
are attributing unfavorable opinions for sex, it's a gender bias brought in from outside
the game.

There's nothing wrong with people who have webbed feet either, but that doesn't make them commonplace.  If you don't want to be judged as "rare" or "uncommon" then you may consider a character description that assumes the physical features more common to the gameworld.

Again, flawless skin can certainly be a mutation, but it's a mild one if it is, one which
falls into 75% of the common populace on Zalanthas.  Pointing it out like it is a major
mutation is a nice try, one closer to the docs, but still based on an ooc dislike for what
you consider to be a "slut" character; an opinion that does not belong in game.

There is nothing wrong with a character believing that using sex as a method of advancement is less respectable than achieving it through dedication, effort, and non-sexual rewards, nor is there is a problem with someone treating said person poorly because it inspires in them jealously, hatred, frustration, or any other negative emotion that would naturally accompany such a situation.

Good!  Include guys in this too.  Until the fateful day that happens, and I start seeing
numerous complaints about f-me male pcs, it's still a gender bias that does not
belong in game, no matter what rationale you try to cover it up as.

Your words are not a doctrine, nor a set of laws for appropriate roleplay and largely exclude the valid and IC reactions and reasoning for negative treatment of a character.  Many people can stand to improve their treatment of female players and their PC's in the game, but there are a great many others who likewise need to temper their opinions on what is acceptable or not with a wider view of the world, its people, and the potential factors that may result in unfair, disrespectful, or hateful treatment.

Actually, it is doctrine and has been repeated by several imms.  You don't have the
luxury of ignoring it.

[Barzalene]

I've posted on this before, here, and on tms. I feel pretty strongly about it. I don't have any issue with people making beautiful pc's. I have an issue with the idea that people do it because they see it as the only way for a female pc to be successful. The other side of that is the female ps's that are extremely masculine, because in a way isn't that also negating a woman's ability to be successful while being feminine? As long as women don't make pretty pc's because they believe that only pretty pc's have value, or because pretty pc's are more successful I don't think it's an issue. What is an issue is pretty pc's who are nothing more than pretty. That isn't something you see very often on Arm. So, maybe things are not as far from the ideal as they might be.

[LoD]

Glad I'm not the only one saying it then.  Look in the archives for Sanvean's response for more details.  It has been cleared up, just conveniently ignored by the hardcore in advocates.

Cleared up indicates that something has been cured, solved, or removed.  As this subject continues to be debated in the forums, I hardly think this is the case.  What Sanvean has done is comment on what she believes social views and beliefs should be in line with the Zalanthan documentation.  That doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which was that this problem stems from players using stereotypical models of Western "beauty", and other players reacting to them.

Again, Earth culture that doesn't belong in Zalanthan methodology.  It's not the same society.  It never will be.  This example has no bearing.  If players are unable to control their own hormones, take it out on the player, not the person who made a pc that you're not even sure was meant to be attractive.

So you claim that someone in game cannot draw a correlation from the actions of a female street whore in the Gaj with the actions of a female noble's aide?  So how are we to compare anyone if not through direct reference to in game characters of different class, economic, and social standing?  No, it does have bearing.  The Earth "example" is of how such a correlation is made on our planet between humans.  Such a correlation is easily made with Zalanthan models intact and in place with exactly the same outcome.

Prejudices based on gender have no place in the game.  This has been said by the staff over...and over...and over...and over again.

I agree.  Too bad I didn't say prejudices based on gender.  You assumed that since you seem to be under the belief that I "disagree" with the fact that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas, even though I've stated that directly elsewhere in my post.  I distinctly outline the factors being one's actions, appearance and demeanor.  Prejudices are based on interactions with a similar people or group of people.  You don't seem to have a grasp on the concept that someone can build prejudices solely within the game environment that are NOT based on RL, Earth or any reference to gender.

To assume that an elf will try to steal something is a prejudice based on a stereotype that is perpetuated by the culture.  Prejudice is a very real part of the game and perfectly applicable to "pretty" characters if enough "pretty" characters in the game provide stereotypical behavior.

Actually, it is doctrine and has been repeated by several imms.  You don't have the luxury of ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring anything the Imms have laid forth, in fact many of my points are supporting it.  If you reread my post with the understanding that I am meeting the OP's question with specific regard to female PC's and not addressing male PC's, then you will understand much of what I say agrees with you, but your comments are one sided and geared to protect a group for which you obviously have strong feelings.

My contention is that "pretty" people are not sarosanct from prejudice, mistreatment or loathing.  If my character meets 5 "pretty" characters, male or female, and 4/5 of them exhibit sexually aggressive behavior that in some way effects my character in a negative fashion (i.e. getting a promotion over me because they ASSUME it's because of a sexual relationship rather than tangible merit), then what will happen is a natural prejudice forms against future "pretty" people based purely on in-game interaction.

Argue it all your want, it's what happens in any life, real or imagined, Earth or Zalanthas, male or female.

-LoD