How to react to those petite f-me's?

[Anonymous]

How should someone react if they see a female PC with the word "delicate" or "petite" or anything like that in their sdesc?  I've seen a lot of those in my time of playing, and I don't see how that's enforcing the "no-sexism" ideology of Zalanthas.  If anything, I think there should be a lot of scarred, buff, muscular women out there instead of these graceful, lithe, skinny, modern-day celebrity types.

Should characters be looking at them weirdly, or being skeptical as to how long they'd last in the world?  It's hard not to be sexist when all the men are muscular and big, and the women are tiny and perfect.

[Vesperas]

Well, seeing as how 'petite' and the such are simply other build-types, you could try to get more male PCs to use the adjectives.

It's the ones that go into detail about the perfection of their facial features, the roundness of their breasts, etc., etc.  

Unfortunately, I've played large, burly women before, and have more often than not been given this, "Whoa, you're a big one, arn't you?" kind of look.

[Naiona]

Some very succesful aboriginal cultures in real life consist of very small people.  Assuming that someone can't take care of themselves because they are petite may get you in trouble.  They could well be swift and smart.  

It is odd to see a 'perfect' specimen of either sex surviving as a hunter or Bynner, but size shouldn't have much to do with it.  As to how to deal with anyone who is playing a 'perfect' PC, I would remind yourself that they are most likely a new player and being oocly cruel to them may well chase away a great potential RPer.  They'll get it and add scars where appropriate as they go along if you give them a little gentle IC guidance.

Lastly, you are certainly welcome here and it is not unusual for some of our players to use it - but please do know that the very term 'f-me' is offensive to some of the players and some of the staff.

[Larrath]

If I see a character who is blatantly an f-me -- that is, there purely for the mudsex -- I ignore them as much as my character allows me to.
If it looks like a new player, I act the same way I would for any other player, and mostly disregard their unrealistic appearance.

I did have a fairly ugly, lonely and isolated character who was approached by a couple of super-model PCs.  He did go with them because it's just ridiculous to turn someone down and then whine about being lonely.  I wasn't really pleased with it, on an OOC level, but that's life.

[ale six]

Instead of being sexist, be prejudiced based on somebody's apparent ability... that petite, delicate woman isn't weak because she's a woman, she's weak because she's petite and delicate and doesn't look tough. If you see petite, delicate, scrawny, skinny, or runty men, treat them the same way. And keep in mind that whatever PC demographics are, there are plenty of both strong, muscular women and skinny, delicate men running around as vnpcs in both major cities.

As has been said countless times in countless threads, not all 'perfect' pcs are there purely for the mudsex. Some may engage in it, that doesn't make it their or their player's sole goal. I admit I have seen PCs who looked like their entire purpose was to be bed toys, but these were very very rare. Having an attractive character and having mudsex does NOT make you an 'f-me'.

I think a pc's appearance should reflect their background. If you come from a hunter/miner type life, you probably should not look like a movie star. On the other hand, PCs from merchant or servant or 'upper class' type lifestyles who've been sheltered and pampered might plausibly be petite and attractive -- and there's nothing wrong with that. A character of mine who was a city type recieved several scars from something sekrit she'd been doing and had to hide them, because it just didn't make sense for someone in her role to be scarred any more than it does for a Bynner to have perfect, flawless skin.

I think outright ignoring any PC because they don't fit your conception of the gameworld is, frankly, bad play and silly. Lead by example, or make whatever assumptions your character would make, but don't pretend someone doesn't exist. That's likely to just cause frustration and drive them away.

[Larrath]

I think outright ignoring any PC because they don't fit your conception of the gameworld is, frankly, bad play and silly. Lead by example, or make whatever assumptions your character would make, but don't pretend someone doesn't exist. That's likely to just cause frustration and drive them away.

I did not mean ignore as in not reading their emotes.  I meant ignore by paying little attention to them ICly - if they make any 'romantic' advances, they're likely to find my PCs unwilling or busy.  I try not to do this with someone who also appears to be trying to learn how to play.

If I did not ignore them, well, what would the typical man do if Jennifer Lopez, Anna Kournikova or Angelina Jolie walked up to them and offered them sex?  And once you give in, you really just encourage this behavior.

I have no problem encouraging people who use Arm purely for mudsex to go elsewhere by being passive.  If they ("they" being players who aren't newbies) want to conform to the game and have mudsex ever so often, or even very frequently, I have absolutely no problem with that.
But I do have a problem with players who are willing to piss all over the game and its feel for a bit of cyber-tail.

[marko]

I'd like to point out that petite and delicate can easily be infered to mean that the character has no muscle strength and is skinny.  I wouldn't classify petite or delicate as in the fuck-me category at all.   When I see 'delicate' I assume the character is weak and probably had a life that was tough but without heavy lifting (such as a merchant's life or a well-to-do commoner) - in other words they were able to live fine enough but still didn't do well enough to eat lots.  Petite has no connotation to me with beauty - it just means that someone is small.  Small people are everywhere.

Plump characters are the characters that come from a clearly rich background.

When I meet characters in the game of any type my character reacts to them as my character would react to them.  Allowing OOC thoughts such as, "oh this character is a fuck-me" to influence your reactions is ignoring the roleplay of the situation for an OOC consideration.  Basically, in other words, that's twinking.

If people want to play a beautiful character that's perfectly fine and typically has absolutely nothing with someone trying to play a fuck-me.  The number of "fuck-me" characters I've actually encountered over my entire time playing Armageddon has probably been about five.

The rest of the beautiful characters, both male and female, have simply been beautiful characters with descriptions indicating beauty.  A description does not a character make.  

In terms of dealing with it - Your character can assume that those who are pale, clean, and well taken care of come from some position in life that allows them to be that way.  Typically that means a well-to-do commoner family (perhaps merchants or perhaps high ranked servants) where they were allowed to focus on something other than survival.  Beauty in the game, in my view (and the view of my characters) is found in chubby characters.  Chubby, well rounded, voluptuous, curvaceous, plump, rotund.. whatever - those all mean that the character has a life-style one should be envious of.

[Gaare]

Actually, in my first days in ARM, I thought all that kind of beatiful PCs are somewhat belong to an important person, noble, templar, wealthy merchat.. or simply they are slave. So, I RPed in that way.

Then as time goes, my opinion changed. In Zalanthas IMHO muscular, at least strong, males and females are found more attractive and considered as beatiful, so I RP in that way.

Even though, in some parts of Turkey I lived, description of female beauty is different then common western idea. Woman not obese, but not thin either are considered as beatiful.

I remember from my some years back, my grand-grandfather asked me if models on TV do not earn well and look so poor. Heh.

[amoeba]

I've met delicate, petite people in RL that no one in thier right mind would classify as beautiful.

[Same Kank]

Even so, the petite and delicate characters that I see all have things in their mdesc saying that their eyes are bright, they have fine, smooth faces, glistening clean hair, hands that have not seen a day's work, fair or deeply tanned skin that shows no sign of dirt ever touching it, etc.

Seriously now, you're character is a commoner on Zalanthas.  Doesn't matter how your merchant family didn't make stuff at all, but just sold stuff.  Dirt and sweat is there.  Want to look like the above desc?  You can by standing outside to tan yourself every so often, but otherwise staying inside and bathing with precious water while using Pantene Pro-V and whatever skin conditioner.  If you play a merchant who crafts or one who doesn't, you're not going to have dormant sweat glands in a desert planet and skin that repels sand from the storms.

It gets to me how you might see a tailor, woodcrafter, or jeweler perhaps that have those smooth uncallused hands.  Tailors without calluses are going to bleed a lot with all that needlework, woodcraft is a rough job on the skin, and so is working with rocks.

As for the newness of these players, the ones I've seen are by no means new by the way they act, using emotes and having an apparent familiarity with the world.

[Vesperas]

I just really, really hate "seductive" descriptions.

I'm not talking about making mention of a body build or eye color/shape, I'm talking about those descriptions that were MEANT to be read seductively.  For one, I choose what attracts my character before it enters play, and I don't like it when she is cunningly forced to notice what would normally be very mundane attributes to her.

Nor do I like reading seductive paragraphs about female PCs, when I myself am a female.  I'd read a cheesy modern American novel if I wished to do that.

As for "perfect" PCs.... how many "perfect" people do you know in real life?  Seriously.  And -WE- have cosmetic surgery, medical care, easilly-attainable acne cream, highly inexpensive soaps, moisturizers, creams, and make-ups, advanced technology, a great deal of knowledge concerning health, aging, diet, and hygeine, and very few of us have had to walk around in a sandstorm 80% of their life (the other 20% spent in a pissy barrack or infested tavern).  Yeah... and we have toilets.

It is the flaws that we love.

[Maybe42or54]

Fuck 'em.

Use them, abuse them, have a relationship with them where you always fade to black.

But don't ignore them.
That just sounds stupid. Even if I wish I could ignore other types of Pcs because they annoy me. That just isn't best for RP or the mud, IMHO.

Just because you don't want to have sex, don't make your pc sterile.

[flurry]

How should someone react if they see a female PC with the word "delicate" or "petite" or anything like that in their sdesc?  I've seen a lot of those in my time of playing, and I don't see how that's enforcing the "no-sexism" ideology of Zalanthas.  If anything, I think there should be a lot of scarred, buff, muscular women out there instead of these graceful, lithe, skinny, modern-day celebrity types.

I wouldn't presume to say how you "should" react, but I don't see anything strange about delicate or petite people, male or female, on Zalanthas.   In some ways I think skinny and lithe fit the setting more than buff and muscular do.  But I guess it depends on what the PC's lifestyle is.   Some occupations may demand a big hulking physique, but a lot don't, and for those it seems like an awful waste of resources in a world like Zalanthas.

[Tamarin]

My male PCs do not discriminate against petite females.  In fact, they do not discriminate against ANY females.  Every female PC, no matter the race or description, is a potential target for my PCs wang.

Even if it's just to fade.

[Malifaxis]

I was shocked once to find that one of my characters, a bodyguard, was considered an f'me.  It had never, ever crossed my mind that it was possible that she was 'ravingly beautiful.'

By mistake, however, I had written her up so.  I didn't have that picture in my mind, in any way, and a few people that played with me/her will attest to the fact that I didn't play her as one.  But still, I was branded as playing a f'me, and I definitely saw people treat me differently.  It was really quite sad, no matter how well I roleplayed, some people still thought of me as a pitiful, worthless f'me.

The concept of f'me differs for many people, and petite =/= wus.  Petite people can survive, and flourish, if they're smart and quick.

I'd classify Bruce Lee as a 'petite' or 'slight' person, wouldn't you?  Not a wus.

[Maybe42or54]

In the end, as I have heard so many times. People will play what they like, they can't be that horrible to Arm's environment as Imms approve these F'mes. If the answer to the word F'me is to ignore them, then I am going to apply that to things that annoy me, such as HGs that are too smart. Elves that are thieves, dwarves that are miners, and those annoying buff, bynners that talk all the shit, then disappear when a F'me goes into public so they don't have to RP with someone that just wants mudsexx.

Sounds elitest to me also.

[Jakahri]

*shrug*

I find it rather jarring, personally, when commoner pc's use makeup in their descriptions, defining voluptuous bodies and unblemished skin. That just seems very un-zalanthan to me, something that only the richest of nobles could afford.

My perception of beauty in Zalanthas is quite different than that of the masses, I suppose. I view 'beauty' in this world as having dark skin, a strong and sinewy musculature, as well as defined and toned features. Even scars and mottled defects can be alluring to my pc's, because it shows that the member of the opposite sex knows how to take care of themself and is not afraid to get "nasty".

I believe that there would be very few females or males in Zalanthas who are defined by the "western" trends of our modern day society. This, sadly, is highly unbalanced by the influx of characters who are the "exception to the rule" that us players always seem so eager to play. I myself have been guilty of this in the past.

I will not, however, stop roleplaying with a pc that I consider unfitting and jarring for the world. That is poor play on my part and, in my opinion, only denying myself and others for potential roleplay and fun.

[Morfeus]

I find it rather jarring, personally, when commoner pc's use makeup in their descriptions, defining voluptuous bodies and unblemished skin. That just seems very un-zalanthan to me, something that only the richest of nobles could afford.

Why un-zalanthan? Would not be much more fun approach them as your character would - perhaps thinking it has to be rich merchant, rich spy hiding under common clothes or even a magicker who spends his powers on being "beautiful"? I think IC approach to IC things is much more fun. I remember one my char years ago decided person X has to be a half-breed because of mdesc of that person. Soon after, whole Tuluk thought about X as about dirty breed and nothing else. And I should say I had fun with that. But sit and complain on GDB how people should not create characters like this or that? I find that quite boring.

Back to the topic - how would my character react to petite f-me PC depends on who my character is.

[Jakahri]

Why un-zalanthan?

Because there are very few players I know who will either give their characters defects or...

Eons of life on Zalanthas has warped the human appearance enough so that physical anomalies are somewhat commonplace: webbed fingers or toes, hairlessness, pointed ears, long or short limbs, or skin tones in the faint blues or greys are all possible mutations upon the human form.

...adhere to the documentation and roleplay a character every now and then who has some physical flaw.

Being the exception to the rule everytime is a bore.

I'll simply restate my comment earlier then leave this thread:

I will not, however, stop roleplaying with a pc that I consider unfitting and jarring for the world. That is poor play on my part and, in my opinion, only denying myself and others for potential roleplay and fun.

I will remain IC, regardless of my ooc perceptions about a player and his/her own pc.

[Bebop]

RAAAAGH!

This conversation -again-?

Just... leave it alone.

[Naiona]

True story:

There was once a character who was paying IC for certain "vile magick" (tm) things to be done to keep themself looking young and attractive far beyond an age when such a thing should have been possible.

The staff inhabiting the magicker had fun with this character - making them jump through all sorts of hoops, forcing them to hire entire groups of the Byn and independants on hunts and mini-quests to find special items the magickers wanted and charging thousands and thousands of coins to this PC on a regular basis.

Other players complained OOCly that this character didn't seem to be aging properly.  They were told to 'explore it ICly' and instead chose to continue complaining OOCly.  A huge opportunity for blackmail, intrigue and taunting roleplay was lost because people insisted on letting their OOC perceptions color their IC perceptions.  Worse, this type of thing has happened more then once.

When you insist on looking at things your character sees through OOC glasses, the only person you are 'hurting' isn't yourself, it is the game as a whole.

[bloodfromstone]

That's an awesome set up, Naiona. Sorry to hear it fell through in the end.

As far as extremely attractive PC's go... Well, there are a lot of them out there and they're often not 'Zalanthan' in design, but I find it fairly easy to overlook. Sure, I'll have a little OOC chuckle when I see one that is really over the top, or I might roll my eyes when someone emotes their breasts bouncing. That aside, one the best characters I have ever had the priviledge to roleplay with (and others that were very good, that just don't stick out as much in my mind) was one that would be easily labelled as an f-me by reading her description. Western beauty or not, I might not still be playing the game if my first real character hadn't had a PC like that to play off of.

My point (yes, I have one) is that I understand completely why people wouldn't want to see attractive, curvy PCs all of the time. But I'd suggest giving them a chance and rolling with how your character would react. If all they want to do is mudsex and emote about their hair, feel free to try to cut them out of your character's life. Alternately, you might find someone really fun to play with, whether they fit most of our visions of the world or not.

[Spoon]

This is the best point yet. People seem to eager to leap into judging PCs on a OOC basis.

While it's difficult sometimes, I really do try to look at every PC as a character in a fantasy world, not sometime concocted by another player for a certain reason, whether they be f-me, newbie, cliched or whatever.

[Bestatte]

I've never played an overly attractive PC in Arm - they've all either had obvious flaws or been "ordinary." But eventually, (usually sooner than later) they'd get hit on. Or told they're beautiful. One in particular, I even included the word "ordinary" in her main description, to emphasize the fact that she was plain looking. I created her for the express purpose of NOT standing out in a crowd. And she was one of the more hit-on characters I had. I think it's just because she was well-written, heh.

Usually when I saw one of those types that looked like they should have a "please mudsex me!" sign posted to their forehead, I'd snicker and snort and roll my eyes - me, being me, not my character. But my character would respond to them however it was appropriate, given that "perfect" person's own RP. Sometimes it was a perfect match. Sometimes the "perfect" person would take great pains to emphasize their long luscious curved calves, or their perfect golden hair glinting in the moonlighty-light, or the perfect swell of their ample bosoms, or whatever. They were (whether on purpose or not) drawing attention to their sexuality, and in a world where sexuality ain't no big deal, someone trying to make a "big deal" out of it is gonna attract a few odd looks (or more).

As for the pale skin, one of my characters came from a tribe of dark-skinned humans outside the city. There was a whole religion written up about her people, and so I interpreted it as pale city people being infected with the city disease. The whiter their skin, the worse their infection. It was kinda fun.

[Pantoufle]

Other players complained OOCly that this character didn't seem to be aging properly. They were told to 'explore it ICly' and instead chose to continue complaining OOCly. A huge opportunity for blackmail, intrigue and taunting roleplay was lost because people insisted on letting their OOC perceptions color their IC perceptions. Worse, this type of thing has happened more then once.

I suspect some of the complainers knew the IC "explanation" but still found the idea of an ageless, pristine beauty unfitting with the game setting.  Barbie doll princesses who never age are a bit out of touch with the Armageddon MUD theme, in my opinion.

Back on topic, I don't find keywords such as 'petite' or even 'delicate' unfitting with the game setting, nor are they words synonymous with sexual or even sensuous, indeed many women (and men) can have delicate or petite builds and still be hideous to look at.  But I also recognise the "f-me" concept which thrives in most MU* environments, and Arm is no exception.  They're what I like to call the Viriannedrearl concept.  And they continually recycle themselves in the game world time and time again.

I have to give props to the player of Ysania from ages past, who started the game as your typical angelic beauty and, through the course of many IC game years, evolved into the final stages of a haggish crone, rather than finding some outlandish IC means (however well RPed they may be) of achieving "eternal beauty".  Even if such an event were well played out through lengthy "quests", it still smacks of Tolkienesque fantasy in my opinion.

The best female "beauties" in Arm, as far as I'm concerned, are those whose descriptions, while pretty, include a few minute flaws such as thick eyebrows, moles, a few crooked teeth, or a few tiny scars here and there.  Realistic beauty far outshines plastic flawlessness.  There's nothing wrong with playing an attractive character, it's simply how one goes about it that makes a lasting statement on the rest of the playerbase.

[My 2 sids]

Small and other adjs could reflect a lack of nourishment, something perfectly acceptable as IC.  

Personally, I'm one who believes sexuality (and trends that define it) have always revolved around the ability to reproduce.  I tend view idealism in game as I do say... Medieval times where flesh indicated food and nourishment.  Thus, if I see someone trying to pull off "delicate" as an F-me that just tells me they probably arn't the best at their occupation.

[jmordetsky]

How to react to those petite f-me's?

Mudsex them?

[Intrepid]

I have to agree with Bestatte--a lot of the pcs being accused of being
F-me are likely plain pcs with detailed descs that were hit on often by
horny mudders.

And like Sanvean said the last time this topic came up, it's hypocritical for
for players to flip out and try to take the moral high ground about oddly
described pcs in a world where mutation is commonplace anc causes even
more unusual traits.

[spawnloser]

After thinking about this for a while...I recall someone (but don't feel like going back to find out who) saying something about a description written to be seductive.  Personally, I wonder what this means.  Attractive writing, artistically done?

[sarahjc]

First up, this thread seems started more on a gripe than on a real question. The Anon-kank here already has preconceived notions on how to deal with "F-me's". It just seems like you are looking for affirmation of that opinion.

Now I can understand the twitch people get when they see an F-me PC. Beautiful, flaxen blonde hair brushing against firm buttocks. A lithe frame with full, rounded breasts, doe eyes and lush, pouted pink lips.  You think, How can she be bad ass with all that hair in the way? And don't her breasts get in the way when she is trying to notch a bow?

But "F-me's" are as much a part of the game as "He-men". They aren't going away. It's not that big a deal and most are new players. I treat people pretty much how they look. If you look like a 90 pound weakling with perfect hair, pale skin and supple curves, I'm gonna assume you don't fair that well with a sword and don't spend much time outside. Why? Because that is what you look like.

I won't however avoid a person or react to them with OOC stigma. Because as much as you feel those f-me people are ruining the game, you reacting to them in an OOC fashion are doing far more damage.

I have played a few pretty PC's (my first one, second one and a few more in between). I have played a few ugly ones, a few damn ugly ones, a few raunchy ones and some that are just your average person. For the most part I find that if you RP well, and make the environment that you play in interesting and fun, it won't really matter what your PC looks like. People will want to play around you.

So what should you do if you see an "f-me"? The same thing you would do if you saw anyone else.

[marko]

There is a difference between writing a beautiful character and a character that is clearly made for sex.

Beauty does not equal fuck-me and I wish people would get this through their heads.  

I've written characters who were, in fact, ugly as hell but because of the style of writing and what was focused on (their best attributes) people thought the characters were beautiful.  

This is what I would consider to be a true fuck-me - in fact, I wrote this character up for another MUD for the fun of it and had it approved.  In Armageddon this character wouldn't be approved.

Luscious lips curve into a pouting smile, their enticing form continually
ready for action.  She has some eyes, a nose, hair, and a face but those
don't matter.  Her shapely body curves with the most insidious of callings
with the lustful appearance of her breasts bulging forth in a brazen
sensuality. These pert breasts peek outwards from her narrow torso
highlighting the latent sensuality of her curvaceous form.  Her skin is
nubile and seems to glow with its enticing beauty and wanton yearning.

[Vesperas]

After thinking about this for a while...I recall someone (but don't feel like going back to find out who) saying something about a description written to be seductive.  Personally, I wonder what this means.  Attractive writing, artistically done?

That was me.

By "seductive" writing, I did not mean attractive or artistic writing, but I thought I made that clear by going on to say that if I wanted seductive writing, I'd read a cheesy romance novel.

Seductive writing, in my opinion, is the conscious attempt to draw attention to perfect or sexual features in a method, combination, or sequence to entice the reader sexually.  Marko's "fuckme" description above is a decent representation of this.

There is a difference between using the English language skillfully and doing it to write thinly-veiled text-porn.

If you are writing porn, you deserve the term "f-me," no matter how offensive you feel it is.  -I- am offended at having to read it.  Now, in defense of all those wrongfully judged, though, I have actually seen very few of these true "f-me"s in the game -- they come, but they curiously go just as quickly as any newb who made the mistake to walk out into the desert unarmed and without water.

[Nao]

I've written characters who were, in fact, ugly as hell but because of the style of writing and what was focused on (their best attributes) people thought the characters were beautiful.  

Doesn't that contracdict a little to the whole point of writing a description?

[Intrepid]

Doesn't that contracdict a little to the whole point of writing a description?

It does, but I can attest to his having happened to me too.  This isn't the
writer's fault--the reader simply misread the information.

[marko]

Doesn't that contracdict a little to the whole point of writing a description?

How?

You describe the most prominent features.  If the reader decides to take the major features and extrapolate a sense of beauty while ignoring the other sentences that indicate otherwise that is up to them.  The information is still there and it is subjective in how it is read.

[Twilight]

I've actually found inspiration for my own character concepts from apparently f-me pcs.

A few years ago, after seeing a couple of characters in Allanak whose descriptions were obviously inspired by surgery-enhanced porn stars, I decided to emulate them on a whim.  My sdesc, and my main description, were centered primarily on the incredibly large breasts that seemed to unnaturally defy gravity with their perkiness.  I even made her an elf, to further be able to illustrate in my description that these things were completely incredulous.  Oh, and a whiran.  After all, they actually were unnaturally defying gravity.

As many people seemed to notice the boobies, no one seemed to notice all the hints in the main description that something incredibly odd was going on here.  Unfortunately, they were not quite big enough to function as safety airbags (I knew I should have made them even bigger in the description!), or she might have lived longer.

[Renaissance]

Three of the finest roleplayers I ever had the privilege of roleplaying with had f-me descriptions - remember Ysania, Pearl and Nashi, anyone?

I do play 'attractive' female PCs, because I am a girl, but I also include the flaws of a common crafter - callouses, suntan, that kind of thing. But I love well-written descriptions, even if they're f-me types.

Focus on the way a description is written, people - don't get hung up on the details.

[Larrath]

Like several others already said in this thread - a character isn't an f-me simply because they have a well-written description.  Even if it constantly mentions their inviting breasts, five-inch thick lips and shapely rears, it doesn't really make them an f-me.
A real f-me is a character, most often with a description like above, who would walk up to the most disgusting mutant PC ever with the most terrible scars and severe drooling problems and missing fingers and crooked teeth and, because the player of that hideous wretch has a good emoting style, chat it up with them and pretty much ignore (or giggle) at anything gross the mutant might do.

That is a real f-me.

Pretty characters who are also slutty?  Well, again I try to translate their description to what makes sense to me - I simply can't imagine Zalanthas with anyone truly beautiful who isn't very wealthy, powerful or closely tied to someone wealthy or powerful.  Sometimes they're really good players, and then you can play with them and it's all nice and well.  Other times they're not quite as good and, well... I find it difficult to find interest, ICly, in any character that seriously bores me on an OOC level, and as a result I don't tend to have many lengthy interactions with them.  I doubt I've ran into more than a dozen characters since I've started playing that really bored me OOCly, though.
And newbies are exempt - new players should always be encouraged to play and learn the game, no matter what they do.

Either way, I hope I clarified my position enough.  I'm really not an elitist asshole, I swear.

[Anonymous]

are halflings .... petite ?

[Vesperas]

A petite, buxom halfling enters from the west.

'assess halfling'

He looks to be in excellent condition.
He is not tired.

[jhunter]

What I usually do...when I run into them, is that I take them back to my pc's housing (if they don't have any I take them to an alley) get my groove on with them. Then, I kick them to the curb.

[MorganChaos not logged in]

Y'know, my first character got the most play and she was probably the least interested in sex. A fairly consistent boyfriend, a female fuckbuddy, and both of them at once a few times. Died because she got caught pickpocketing. I faded a lot with this character because she was so young; 16 years old and a house servant. I felt like a child molester, despite being rather young myself when I played this character.

My second character was probably my token f-me. She didn't get any play at all. She got kicked out of Tuluk a couple of weeks into play for saying the wrong thing to a Templar's pet and wound up in Luir's. She got drunk a lot and was quite friendly when drunk, but eventually she died because, being drunk, she thought she could flirt by hitting an NPC and the autobattle started. This was probably more the character stupidity, but it could be said that she died for being an f-me. (I didn't really mean her as an f-me, at first. I basically took my best friend and made her into a character; best friend found it hilarious that she was an f-me.)

My third character was accused of being too pretty for his own good, and had a boyfriend who promptly died on a trip to Allanak, because he needed his hand reattached. He then got another boy (played by the same as his previous boyfriend. yeah, we're twinks. But I first met him IC without realizing he was the same player), and died after boyfriend died because he went on this rather suicidal mission to find his sister, managed not to die, and so picked a fight when he got back to Tuluk. I didn't fade him because I'm addicted to yaoi. Sue me.

Fourth character lived in Allanak. She was young, underfed, crippled, and antisocial, almost to the point of sociopath-ness (would that be sociopathosis?). She got hit on three times. She thought it was creepy and didn't hesitate to tell people so. She died because she tried to walk to Tuluk without water. And because imms felt like messing with me. She died by tiny kank-fly, after many, wishes of "look, help me or kill me. i'm bored and want to hurry this up so i can apply a new character."

[Anonymous]

In this day and age my opinion is notably unpopular.

I dig sexism.

I just think my side of the situation should have some representation.

[flurry]

Unfortunately, that "side" gets more than enough representation as it is.

But anyway - the bottom line issue is adherence to the docs.   Don't be the kank-riding elf.

[Seeker]

Haters.  I didn't ask to be this sexxy.


Seeker

[ShaLeah]

Haters.  I didn't ask to be this sexxy.


Seeker

Absolutely PERFECT example of how sometimes an f-me pc can be NOT beautiful.  Seeker's first character was about as far away from an f-me pc as one can get.  He was actually ugly if I recall correctly but boy did he turn out to be one of the most lascivious, hated yet beloved characters of his time.  He was charming and sensual and scrawny and clutsy but boy, his many facets charmed the leggings right off several women.

Any time I see, or make, a good looking character (what I think of as beautiful) I intend them to be used as such, as arm-candy.  Beauty on Zalanthas is entirely in the arm of the observer, I know you guys have seen "good looking/gorgeous/f-me pcs" who couldn't bed anything but the grubbiest rinther and that's all because if the personality does not match the looks eventually that f-me pc that was carefully constructed to evoke feelings of lust or longing will end up forgotten as quickly as a fart in the wind.

I think commoners would be especially proud if their offspring was good looking, I think they would starve themselves in order to provide better for their meal ticket because let's face it, if you're starving and homeless and you do whatever you can to push that gorgeous baby of yours up the social ladder, eventually that baby will grow up grateful... or guilty, depending on your parenting methods.

The world needs beauty as much as harshness, that's what makes Armageddon so bloody precious isn't it?  The realism. The jealousy of other people who want what you have, the envy, the hate.

ShaLeah
- who has had f-me pcs that were gorgeous, mutant and horribly scarred...

[rae]

Just a thought..but to me petite..simply means small of stature, slightly shorter than the norm.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I always thought of "petite" as frail, slender bodied.. not really an F-me, but overall "cuteness" factor, not really a hottie.

[spawnloser]

Petite, very literally, means small.  This would mean someone that is simply on the short and light end of the scale.  You know how most guys in this world average 5'11", or 71 inches?  Well, women only average 5'5"...or 65 inches.  Someone that is shorter than those averages while being of a normal body-type, could easily be described as 'petite.'

[bardess]

I always figured on Zalanthas, chubbiness (not obesity) would be attractive.

I know that it's like that today in some of the poverty-stricken countries, like in Africa, for example.  If you're chubby, it means you have enough 'sid (or enough rich friends) to keep yourself not only fed, but well-fed.

And yet, I know characters in game who have made fun of characters' weight.  Seems a little strange to me, but it is a matter of (IC) personal preference.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, it goes both ways.

If they are chubby, but they can't provide for themselves, they deserve to be made fun of, in the least. If they are fat and provide for themselves, fuck yea. seXXXy.

[Cenghiz]

I had sexy and chubby characters. Sexy and wanted by women that means. I had good looking idiots about whom no women cared.

But... I should confess it's a bit different when you play a woman. When you log in with a good-looking woman, you're jumped on by three males at the bar in the first hour and men liking you increase horribly during your play. I don't know why.. I don't want to know why. I won't bother to know why. Fade...

[EvilRoeSlade]

Three of the finest roleplayers I ever had the privilege of roleplaying with had f-me descriptions - remember Ysania, Pearl and Nashi, anyone?

Neither Ysania nor Nashi belong in the same sentance as Pearl.  This comes from someone who has met and role-played with all three, Ysania and Pearl extensively, Nashi not so much.

Pearl would be an example of someone getting it right, for those of you that had met her in game.

EDIT:  I doubt any of their players would have appreciated being called f-mes.

[MorganChaos]

Y'know, I had a PC who was petite, and I was thinking of this thread specifically when I made him, cause everyone had been saying "what's with the petite girls." He was short and slender.

If there was an f-me I had who "got it right," it was the one who got it right completely by accident. I made her to roleplay a marriage and kids, so she was attractive enough for marriage, so I thought. The concept was this girl who was attractive and charismatic. She lasted less than 100 IC days before her lover killed her (politics, a breed sleeping around, especially who's associated with someone of high standing? Won't last long). I think she slept with four male PCs. Literally, I mudsexed three people in one weekend. Two days. (If you count the fades.) I tried to recreate the character to see if I could pull it off again. She lasted almost an IC months and didn't get laid once.

So f-me's rarely work. If a real f-me happens, it was almost certainly accidental.

[Synthesis]

Incidentally, I always had the hunch that Ysania and Pearl were played by the same individual.

[Cegar]

I've played a few petite males. They never got any action.

It seems the only character I have that get love are the ugly, undesireble bastards.

[MorganChaos]

I've played a few petite males. They never got any action.

It seems the only character I have that get love are the ugly, undesireble bastards.

My petite male had a boyfriend. *shrug* I am considering playing an effeminate straight guy though.

[Hymwen]

Incidentally, I always had the hunch that Ysania and Pearl were played by the same individual.

Whether or not that's true, I think that's a little inapporpriate to post, IMO. Trying not to be too much of a forum nazi, and I don't know if there are any rules regarding PC/player speculation, but if I had played two different PCs and didn't want people to know they were both me, I'd be bummed if someone suggested that it was.

I don't know if the player in question minds, and I know you said that it's just a hunch. Just saying

[Maybe42or54]

On the other hand, I believe Pearl was that Player's First Pc.

[aeshyw]

As the player of Pearl I'd like to clear up a couple of things.

One - I am not also the player of Ysania.  A prior post here is correct.  Pearl was my first PC.

Two - I made the character as a temporary "throw away" PC to get used to the game.  I read the documentation and saw that first PCs never last over a few hours, so I didn't put a lot of effort into Pearl's first description.  I never expected her to last 240 days of playtime.

That said, she was small and pretty, but did not have a well described body, or one that was particuarly hot or sexy.  It used to bug me that people called her an f-me when she put so much in-game effort, scheming, flattery, lying and bribery into what she did.  Now, I know that the term is basically ignorance and those who use it to dismiss the accomplisments of female PCs have issues that I don't care to address.

Three - Marko's earlier post is correct.  I've seen hideously ugly PCs treated as "f-me' PCs because they had well written descriptions.   Yet, male PCs with well written descriptions are often assumed to be great roleplayers.  This kind of double standard is pitiful, in my opinion.  I hope that we can grow past it as a player base.

[who's an fme]

I'm with aeshyw.  I'm playing a well-written but not so attractive PC...and get called sexy all the time.  Honestly, I don't understand it.  Just because my description is ten lines long, I must be pretty?  Because I use descriptive language?  Maybe it's just because I didn't mention breasts (meaning they must be the size of a HG's or something)?

I also played a male character that was written to be a pretty boy, city-bred wuss.  I had the attention of everyone in the city.

Really, I don't get it.  It's a double standard.

[ShaLeah]

This topic is never going to die, ever.  I have my reasons for thinking it but I don't wanna derail too much.

Here is something I've come to figure out with regards to F'me PCs - the one and only requirement for a F'me PC is... (drumroll please)

They MUST be female.

Personally I've made a huge range of looks on characters, from the (my vision mind you) drop dead gorgeous petite supple assassin to the most horribly scarred bitch EVAH - hell, my one and only dwarf (who was also really stupid) ended up marrying a HG and was murdered by a purist dwarf.

How many gypsy characters have you guys seen?  How many gypsy MALE characters have you thought of as F'me?

My point is that the term F'me is a derogatory term used for female PCs and the saddest part is that they're used by both male and female players.  It's like the mud equivalent to "skank" or "slut" or "ho".  Perfectly acceptible for males ... and if you happen to be one of the women in game getting all the male attention even though you didn't write a description TO get some, because, after all, you didn't make her THAT good looking and she wasn't created FOR that purpose PLUS it's IC! It's perfectly acceptible in game for you to have more than one lover!

I'm convinced that, just like in real life, when a female gets her panties in a bunch because of competitive feelings with another female (i.e. cattyness) she will react with the same feelings in game that she would outside of the game, suspicion, contempt and even hatred.  

Some of the characters I've played have been subject to woman-hate and I've even had one character encounter a player that had just played someone who hated my character and lo and behold, her new character hated my character too!

The unfortunate side effect of having those intense feelings while you type safe at home is that they do feel very very real. The unfortunate reason we even HAVE a term such as F'me PC is because we, you, society out here in the real world are still threatened by good looking, smart, ambitious women and we're bringing those beliefs into Zalanthas.

How do you deal with a F'me PC?

1.  Check your feelings at the door.  Are you feeling that or is your character? Would your character feel jealousy or hatred towards someone better looking, stronger, richer?  You have to be aware of where these feelings come from and act accordingly.

2.  Act IC'ly.  Would your character REALLY commit murder, risk his life and position for the "love" of his woman?  Would he go to his boss and be like 'yo Tony, Ade's with the feds and wants me to whack some bitch that's better looking, what do I do?' (I'm watching too much Sopranos).  What would the character do?

3.  Keep Zalanthan society in mind when receiving and processing information.
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

4.  If you look at a character and automatically put them into the F'me PC category give yourself a slap in the back of the head and come re-read this post.  

Remember kiddies... sex is not dirty on Zalanthas.. well it IS... but that's just cause most of us can't afford to bathe.  :wink:

ShaLeah
-who thought Fatty Tor was fucking HOT because of how well the description was written even though he was truly FUGLY...

[naatok]

I must agree that just because a character's description is that of a 'drop-dead gorgeous' or 'dangerously handsome'  or what ever....does NOT make that character a F-me character.

I have met in game, and played characters with such descriptions that are FAR from being extensions of some horny bastard's (or bitch in heat's) real life sex drive.

So if you see such characters in game, just treat them the way your character would treat someone that close to the 'Quote-unQuote' ideal of humanoid beauty (and yeah, those ideals should vary among the races).

I've had characters who are out and out rude to such beauties....not because of their beauty...but because of their style of clothing....or perhaps the obvious cushy life they've had because of their milky soft skin.

I've also had characters who would howl like rut-ready gortok when they lay eyes on the 'beauties' of Zalanthas.

Perhaps some may consider that a sexist, real-life extension.  I dunno.  IMHO it depends on the personality of the beholder.

If you as a player are averse to sexual roleplay, cool.  But DON'T treat another character in game based upon your OOC opinions of what that character is all about.  In my not so humble monkey opinion, that is far poorer roleplay then someone who creates a character because they like to roleplay sex.  *shrug*

We all have our reasons for why we play Arm.  Personally, I play just so I can KILL you evil fuckers!!!   But sometimes my characters will want to hump and grope a person BEFORE killing them.   Hrmmn.  Maybe afterwards too!
:twisted:

[MorganChaos]

Ewwww...necro...

Do I still need to smack myself for thinking f-me if I don't see it as a bad thing? Or if it doesn't really alter my reactions IG? I mean, I'll see a PC and think "heh, there's a f-me. Yay, maybe my desperately horny character can get laid." Maybe the only time it changes my opinion is when it's a badly written f-me. If it's a woman who has thin arms, thin legs, a thin stomach, and a thin chest with large breasts (I never figured that one out), yeah, I'm gonna think f-me, and OOCly I'll have some negative opinions. I'll probably treat the character like a poor commoner who probably shouldn't be wearing just that dress and give them shoes or something. Because they're crazy for walking around shoes, and obviously they're not rich enough to go without pants, so maybe I'll give them pants, too.

Just saying, I suppose I object to the "f-me is a negative term" assertion. But then, I don't really think slut is negative either, because I use it all the time, in description of myself and others. So maybe I'm weird.

[ale six]

Of all the threads to get necro'd. oi.

Morgan: The issue with the f-me label is when people take a female character with a well-written description, or a description that mentions breasts, hips, etc., and label that PC/player as someone who's only playing the game for sex. Some people may even make judgements about the player behind the PC or demean whatever accomplishments that PC makes "She wasn't that great, just slept her way to the top", etc.

I find the label both offensive and humorous, because I'm sure that the people applying it will end up underestimating the "f-me" and get burned sooner or later. At the same time, having stereotypes applied to your PC and being treated differently simply because of your desc is no fun, and I too hope we can grow past that.

[Intrepid]

It's not just a matter of growing past it either.

It's a form of ooc twinkdom, one that Sanvean has even alluded to being up there
with kank-riding elves and magick-loving bleeding hearts and well-adjusted half-elves.
And yet, it's the one rp aspect that, after ten years of trying to get on the right track,
many people still can't get past.  It's a mental handicap that is treated as the problem
of the so-called f-me rather than the problem of the biased player--when nothing could
be further from the truth.

The most pathetic thing about it is that all the alleged f-me pcs are women.  You never
see males lumped into this category because the bias never goes that far.  Before anyone
tries to tell me there are male f-me pcs, let me remind you that you're able to name
a number of female f-me pcs right off the top of your head but will always be hard-pressed
to name any male ones that didn't conveniently "earn your respect through good
rp".  I'm currently echoing the opinion of several staff members in the past, some in
response to this very thread or its direct predecessor.

Now, to clear this up once and for all:

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with depicting sexual situations.  If you disagree, it is
your hangup, plain and simple.

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with an attractive character of either gender, pale or
tanned, blemished or unblemished.  If you think they're unrealistically too perfect without
any previous information, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

:arrow:  This is not a Puritan state.  If someone slept their way to the top, good for them.
If you don't know they slept their way to the top and you guess that they did, you're living
in the wrong millenium--and it is still your hangup, plain and simple.

Memorize it, chant it before game, tattoo it backwards to your forehead, get a memory
implant if you have to--but do something to engrain it, folks.  You are otherwise roleplaying
incorrectly, and it's one of the few judgements I as a player will make in regard to
another player's performance of a character.

[Akaramu]

I once played a really pretty, petite Vivaduan with shining eyes, a shapely build, and nice hair. And a crippled foot and a four-fingered hand. She hobbled everywhere, and could not wear any shoes that would fit.

It was kind of fun.

I noticed that a lot of 'pretty' characters just tend to have a thin scar or two at most. More broken teeth, missing fingers and eyes please! (especially for fighter types).  

[Morrolan]

My bias against apparently attractive, unflawed characters extends from my RL bias against apparently attractive, unflawed people.  Which is one of the reasons I don't have cable TV.  Advertisements annoy the crap out of me.

Even when I look at my students, I feel this bias.  It's not their fault.  These students are simply products of a culture that at times seems to be all too concerned with appearances.  I reflexively find these people uninteresting, until they show some sort of depth, flaw, or concern for other people.  And of course, many do.

A pretty/attractive student who acts as if he or she deserves to be the center of attention in class, even when unprepared for it, who talks during class and generally pays no attention, will be much more likely to be noticed than one who is not pretty/attractive.  I will automatically (unless I catch myself) assume that the reason they think they can get away with this rude behavior is because they have been able to do so based on their looks.

This is unfair of me; I work to not do it.  But I still catch myself doing it...making these assumptions.  It could be all the experiences in grad school of it working the other way.

I remember being in a van with some students and professors.  One student, a well-endowed female, had every male professor in the van who was over the age of 45 wrapped around her finger.  They were hanging on her every word.  Now, I will be the first to admit, she was an excellent student.  But so were many of the other students there.

And those other students, including me, were ignored.

What does this have to do with "F-me's"?  Everything.  In our culture, looks are an asset.  There is no reason this should not be true in Zalanthas as well.  But where the OOC intrudes, when we get to choose our appearances, maybe we can choose to change the standards of attractiveness?

In a world without mass-media, regional variations in standards of attractiveness would be much more pronounced.

Morrolan

P.S. I would love some sort of auto-coding of scars based on damage taken.

[Marauder Moe]

I once played a really pretty, petite Vivaduan with shining eyes, a shapely build, and nice hair. And a crippled foot and a four-fingered hand. She hobbled everywhere, and could not wear any shoes that would fit.

Yeesh... how many of your characters did that character of mine run into?  :wink:


Anyway, this whole "f-me" thing seems to be mostly a problem on the GDB.  I've only seen a few characters in-game that would fit the stereotypical "f-me" people describe and I think most of them were approached in a manner mostly consistent with the game setting.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I like to see attractive people in game. Not unflawed, nessessarily, but pretty people. I hate this concept that everyone in Zalanthas is ugly or plain. Why the fuck would that be? There are some gorgeous women in Africa's bush, an improvished portion of an improvished country in the depths of desperation as much or more than Zalanthas. There are also some powerful, scarred women in that same bush.

There are and always will be pretty PCs. If someone emotes their tits bouncing, then they've emoted their tits bouncing. Tits bounce. I've emoted taking a leak. Does that mean I'm a f-me because I emoted something about my dick?

I think this hate for pretty PCs is super-duper lame. I have and always will advocate that PCs are the cream of the crop unless specifically designed not to be by the player themselves. This means that they are bigger, stronger, prettier, more child-baringnerr specimens of their race. I don't care what anybody's view-point on this last thing is. Unless you have a certian bent, you want to play the subject of the story. And the subject of the story is or can be more than the NPCs population is.

Pretty PCs have their place. Ignoring them is ... lame. Hating them is ... lame. And look at the final, most valid point. If they could not fit into Zalanthas, they would not get approved.

[Xygax]

Actually it is interesting (and definitely not rare) to see PCs in-game (especially female PCs) slip into a sort of gossipy "she's such a SLUT" mode when roleplaying around a so-called "f-me" PC -- or really any other female PC that seems to be getting a lot of sexual/sensual attention, or preferential treatment.

This is very much an example of OOC culture spilling into the game, and while it's a tough thing to combat internally (I know that I have struggled from time to time with my own modern biases and sense of morality, maybe less with this than with other things), it's something worth evaluating as you examine your own RP.

-- X

[LoD]

It's a form of ooc twinkdom, one that Sanvean has even alluded to being up there with kank-riding elves and magick-loving bleeding hearts and well-adjusted half-elves.  And yet, it's the one rp aspect that, after ten years of trying to get on the right track, many people still can't get past.  It's a mental handicap that is treated as the problem of the so-called f-me rather than the problem of the biased player--when nothing could be further from the truth.

It isn't really quite as black and white as you portend.  One of the issues with the prejudice against female PC's that somehow fit a stereotype involving attitudes, dress, description, or any combination thereof, is that it bleeds in from RL, on both ends.

There certainly have been, and will be, characters that are created in such a way as to illicit a response from the predominantly male playerbase in an effort to have a better chance of success.  These characters typically share similarities to Western social opinion on what is beautiful; full lips, curvy hips, long legs, slender waist, arched brows, etc...  Are these characters created because this is what the player considers beautiful?  Or are they created in such a way because that is what the player believes others consider "beautiful?".

While neither approach is inherently at fault, I believe it taps into an element of our perception that kank-riding elves, adjusted half-elves and magick lovers do not share.  Those three examples are concepts largely foreign to our RL experiences.  I'd say that the bulk of us (players) have not had to wrestle with these issues to the point where we have a significant amount of data upon which to base strong opinions.  However, all of us have been inundated with commercialism, peer pressure and social views on what is 'beautiful" and the type of jobs "beautiful" women are most commonly seen to hold. (i.e. models, trophy wives, strippers, dancers, cheerleaders).

Now, to clear this up once and for all:

No one person, or thread for that matter, will ever clear this up for one and for all because there are deeper issues here than can be solved by a simple acceptance of your criteria found below.  The problem taps into how we interpret the text of the game as well as those people responsible for encouraging the stereotypes that perpetuate these "issues" with gender roles.

Double Standards

Dave Chapelle had a bit which seems somewhat applicable to this conversation.  He talked about seeing a scantily clad woman walk into a bar and he went over to hit on her.  She became offended by his language and assumptions, saying that just because she was wearing suggestive clothing did not mean she was cheap, easy or available.

To this Dave agreed.  Just because she was wearing revealing clothing did not make her a whore.  She's right.  She's not a whore, he mentions, but she's wearing a whore's uniform.  He equated it to him wearing a policeman's outfit and being offended/surprised when people treated him like a cop.

When you (the player of a female PC) choose to describe your character in a way that makes use of suggestive language, plays on Western social concepts of beauty, and select text or movements that mimic those considered sexual, easy, cheap, or available -- don't cry wolf when someone interprets your language in a way other than how you'd like to be treated.

Yes, Zalanthas is not Earth.  Yes, players should consider if their characters would consider yours 'beautiful' by Zalanthan standards and check sexism, Western social ideals, and current day stereotypes at the door before making judgements.  But simply because there is no concept of sexism in the game does NOT mean that prejudices based on someone's actions, appearance or demeanor will not come into play as a natural part of the game.

:arrow:  There is nothing wrong with depicting sexual situations.  If you disagree, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with those depictions of sexual situations resulting in a character attributing unfavorable opinions of that person as long as they are not being led by the RL motivations of the player.

:arrow: There is nothing wrong with an attractive character of either gender, pale or tanned, blemished or unblemished.  If you think they're unrealistically too perfect without any previous information, it is your hangup, plain and simple.

There's nothing wrong with people who have webbed feet either, but that doesn't make them commonplace.  If you don't want to be judged as "rare" or "uncommon" then you may consider a character description that assumes the physical features more common to the gameworld.

:arrow:  This is not a Puritan state.  If someone slept their way to the top, good for them.  If you don't know they slept their way to the top and you guess that they did, you're living in the wrong millenium--and it is still your hangup, plain and simple.

There is nothing wrong with a character believing that using sex as a method of advancement is less respectable than achieving it through dedication, effort, and non-sexual rewards, nor is there is a problem with someone treating said person poorly because it inspires in them jealously, hatred, frustration, or any other negative emotion that would naturally accompany such a situation.

Memorize it, chant it before game, tattoo it backwards to your forehead, get a memory implant if you have to--but do something to engrain it, folks.  You are otherwise roleplaying incorrectly, and it's one of the few judgements I as a player will make in regard to another player's performance of a character.

Your words are not a doctrine, nor a set of laws for appropriate roleplay and largely exclude the valid and IC reactions and reasoning for negative treatment of a character.  Many people can stand to improve their treatment of female players and their PC's in the game, but there are a great many others who likewise need to temper their opinions on what is acceptable or not with a wider view of the world, its people, and the potential factors that may result in unfair, disrespectful, or hateful treatment.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

It isn't really quite as black and white as you portend.  One of the issues with the prejudice against female PC's that somehow fit a stereotype involving attitudes, dress, description, or any combination thereof, is that it bleeds in from RL, on both ends.

It's exactly as black and white as I think.  Those are stereotypes you're guessing at
based on an biased prejudice made by handful of misogynistic players who refuse to
immerse themselves fully into the game's culture.

There certainly have been, and will be, characters that are created in such a way as to illicit a response from the predominantly male playerbase in an effort to have a better chance of success.  These characters typically share similarities to Western social opinion on what is beautiful; full lips, curvy hips, long legs, slender waist, arched brows, etc...  Are these characters created because this is what the player considers beautiful?  Or are they created in such a way because that is what the player believes others consider "beautiful?".

Until you get the written and signed testimonies of every single player of these alleged
pcs, you're guessing based on your ooc bias and personal hangups.

While neither approach is inherently at fault, I believe it taps into an element of our perception that kank-riding elves, adjusted half-elves and magick lovers do not share.  Those three examples are concepts largely foreign to our RL experiences.  I'd say that the bulk of us (players) have not had to wrestle with these issues to the point where we have a significant amount of data upon which to base strong opinions.  However, all of us have been inundated with commercialism, peer pressure and social views on what is 'beautiful" and the type of jobs "beautiful" women are most commonly seen to hold. (i.e. models, trophy wives, strippers, dancers, cheerleaders).

Actually, demonizing one gender while lionizing the other because of attractiveness is
inherently at fault because one of the core cultural mandates for Arm is that the genders
are equal--any stigma placed on gender must be placed on the other, and this is not
happening.  Everything has to be scummy, dirty and ugly?  Hell, that didn't even exist
in Dark Sun, LoD.  One of the signature characters was a beautiful half-elven enchantress
named Sadira.  The fact that you bring rl examples into how the f-me stereotype is
created proves my point.  It doesn't belong in Zalanthas and only exists if you bring it
in.

No one person, or thread for that matter, will ever clear this up for one and for all because there are deeper issues here than can be solved by a simple acceptance of your criteria found below.  The problem taps into how we interpret the text of the game as well as those people responsible for encouraging the stereotypes that perpetuate these "issues" with gender roles.

Glad I'm not the only one saying it then.  Look in the archives for Sanvean's response
for more details.  It has been cleared up, just conveniently ignored by the hardcore in
advocates.

Dave Chapelle had a bit which seems somewhat applicable to this conversation.  He talked about seeing a scantily clad woman walk into a bar and he went over to hit on her.  She became offended by his language and assumptions, saying that just because she was wearing suggestive clothing did not mean she was cheap, easy or available.

To this Dave agreed.  Just because she was wearing revealing clothing did not make her a whore.  She's right.  She's not a whore, he mentions, but she's wearing a whore's uniform.  He equated it to him wearing a policeman's outfit and being offended/surprised when people treated him like a cop.

When you (the player of a female PC) choose to describe your character in a way that makes use of suggestive language, plays on Western social concepts of beauty, and select text or movements that mimic those considered sexual, easy, cheap, or available -- don't cry wolf when someone interprets your language in a way other than how you'd like to be treated.

Again, Earth culture that doesn't belong in Zalanthan methodology.  It's not the same
society.  It never will be.  This example has no bearing.  If players are unable to
control their own hormones, take it out on the player, not the person who made a pc
that you're not even sure was meant to be attractive.  It's already been proven on
here by the players themselves that quite a few horndog players mistake any lengthy
or well-written desc as being attractive.  It's happened to me as well, and I was playing
a disgusting and murderous psychotic whose desc no one even bothered to read.  It
just somehow was taken as attractive.

Yes, Zalanthas is not Earth.  Yes, players should consider if their characters would consider yours 'beautiful' by Zalanthan standards and check sexism, Western social ideals, and current day stereotypes at the door before making judgements.  But simply because there is no concept of sexism in the game does NOT mean that prejudices based on someone's actions, appearance or demeanor will not come into play as a natural part of the game.

Prejudices based on gender have no place in the game.  This has been said by the
staff over...and over...and over...and over again.

There's nothing wrong with those depictions of sexual situations resulting in a character attributing unfavorable opinions of that person as long as they are not being led by the RL motivations of the player.

Then males need to be included in that--they're not currently.  Sorry, until both genders
are attributing unfavorable opinions for sex, it's a gender bias brought in from outside
the game.

There's nothing wrong with people who have webbed feet either, but that doesn't make them commonplace.  If you don't want to be judged as "rare" or "uncommon" then you may consider a character description that assumes the physical features more common to the gameworld.

Again, flawless skin can certainly be a mutation, but it's a mild one if it is, one which
falls into 75% of the common populace on Zalanthas.  Pointing it out like it is a major
mutation is a nice try, one closer to the docs, but still based on an ooc dislike for what
you consider to be a "slut" character; an opinion that does not belong in game.

There is nothing wrong with a character believing that using sex as a method of advancement is less respectable than achieving it through dedication, effort, and non-sexual rewards, nor is there is a problem with someone treating said person poorly because it inspires in them jealously, hatred, frustration, or any other negative emotion that would naturally accompany such a situation.

Good!  Include guys in this too.  Until the fateful day that happens, and I start seeing
numerous complaints about f-me male pcs, it's still a gender bias that does not
belong in game, no matter what rationale you try to cover it up as.

Your words are not a doctrine, nor a set of laws for appropriate roleplay and largely exclude the valid and IC reactions and reasoning for negative treatment of a character.  Many people can stand to improve their treatment of female players and their PC's in the game, but there are a great many others who likewise need to temper their opinions on what is acceptable or not with a wider view of the world, its people, and the potential factors that may result in unfair, disrespectful, or hateful treatment.

Actually, it is doctrine and has been repeated by several imms.  You don't have the
luxury of ignoring it.

[Barzalene]

I've posted on this before, here, and on tms. I feel pretty strongly about it. I don't have any issue with people making beautiful pc's. I have an issue with the idea that people do it because they see it as the only way for a female pc to be successful. The other side of that is the female ps's that are extremely masculine, because in a way isn't that also negating a woman's ability to be successful while being feminine? As long as women don't make pretty pc's because they believe that only pretty pc's have value, or because pretty pc's are more successful I don't think it's an issue. What is an issue is pretty pc's who are nothing more than pretty. That isn't something you see very often on Arm. So, maybe things are not as far from the ideal as they might be.

[LoD]

Glad I'm not the only one saying it then.  Look in the archives for Sanvean's response for more details.  It has been cleared up, just conveniently ignored by the hardcore in advocates.

Cleared up indicates that something has been cured, solved, or removed.  As this subject continues to be debated in the forums, I hardly think this is the case.  What Sanvean has done is comment on what she believes social views and beliefs should be in line with the Zalanthan documentation.  That doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which was that this problem stems from players using stereotypical models of Western "beauty", and other players reacting to them.

Again, Earth culture that doesn't belong in Zalanthan methodology.  It's not the same society.  It never will be.  This example has no bearing.  If players are unable to control their own hormones, take it out on the player, not the person who made a pc that you're not even sure was meant to be attractive.

So you claim that someone in game cannot draw a correlation from the actions of a female street whore in the Gaj with the actions of a female noble's aide?  So how are we to compare anyone if not through direct reference to in game characters of different class, economic, and social standing?  No, it does have bearing.  The Earth "example" is of how such a correlation is made on our planet between humans.  Such a correlation is easily made with Zalanthan models intact and in place with exactly the same outcome.

Prejudices based on gender have no place in the game.  This has been said by the staff over...and over...and over...and over again.

I agree.  Too bad I didn't say prejudices based on gender.  You assumed that since you seem to be under the belief that I "disagree" with the fact that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas, even though I've stated that directly elsewhere in my post.  I distinctly outline the factors being one's actions, appearance and demeanor.  Prejudices are based on interactions with a similar people or group of people.  You don't seem to have a grasp on the concept that someone can build prejudices solely within the game environment that are NOT based on RL, Earth or any reference to gender.

To assume that an elf will try to steal something is a prejudice based on a stereotype that is perpetuated by the culture.  Prejudice is a very real part of the game and perfectly applicable to "pretty" characters if enough "pretty" characters in the game provide stereotypical behavior.

Actually, it is doctrine and has been repeated by several imms.  You don't have the luxury of ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring anything the Imms have laid forth, in fact many of my points are supporting it.  If you reread my post with the understanding that I am meeting the OP's question with specific regard to female PC's and not addressing male PC's, then you will understand much of what I say agrees with you, but your comments are one sided and geared to protect a group for which you obviously have strong feelings.

My contention is that "pretty" people are not sarosanct from prejudice, mistreatment or loathing.  If my character meets 5 "pretty" characters, male or female, and 4/5 of them exhibit sexually aggressive behavior that in some way effects my character in a negative fashion (i.e. getting a promotion over me because they ASSUME it's because of a sexual relationship rather than tangible merit), then what will happen is a natural prejudice forms against future "pretty" people based purely on in-game interaction.

Argue it all your want, it's what happens in any life, real or imagined, Earth or Zalanthas, male or female.

-LoD

[Synthesis]

LoD is right on the money.  I couldn't have said it better, myself.

Intrepid, you need to pause for a moment and consider that you're essentially reasoning backward from assumed prejudicial behavior, instead of thinking forward from concrete principles.  As a result, you are exhibiting your own brand of unreasonable prejudice...against those who don't like beautiful PCs.  You also need to consider alternative explanations, because  a certain PC's hatred of beautiful PCs is not necessarily based on OOC motivations.  As LoD explained quite nicely, there can be many different reasons behind the formation of such an attitude.

Yes, purely gender-based prejudice, a priori, is unacceptable.  However, gender-based prejudice -can- become part of any PC's psyche, given the right set of circumstances.

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Personally, I think you should take some extra time and re-read LoD's posts, because he makes valid points.  Your rebuttal, on the other hand, didn't seem consistent or reasonable at all.

[Intrepid]

Cleared up indicates that something has been cured, solved, or removed.  As this subject continues to be debated in the forums, I hardly think this is the case.  What Sanvean has done is comment on what she believes social views and beliefs should be in line with the Zalanthan documentation.  That doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which was that this problem stems from players using stereotypical models of Western "beauty", and other players reacting to them.

Firstly, if you have to scrutinize semantics, you've hit a dead end in your thinking.
The debate is going despite the fact that multiple staff members have, over the
course of these ongoing "debates", stated their stance rather firmly.  It's been ignored
because there are very steadfast misogynistic players ignoring it in favor of their
personal viewpoints rather than the presented setting material.  Beauty is in the eye
of the beholder, so when you or anyone else sees an alleged f-me pc, it's your fault,
not the fault of the person writing the desc.  You chose to see something that is not
necessarily there, which has everything to do with the issue.

So you claim that someone in game cannot draw a correlation from the actions of a female street whore in the Gaj with the actions of a female noble's aide?  So how are we to compare anyone if not through direct reference to in game characters of different class, economic, and social standing?  No, it does have bearing.  The Earth "example" is of how such a correlation is made on our planet between humans.  Such a correlation is easily made with Zalanthan models intact and in place with exactly the same outcome.

Prostitution being looked down on is not a Zalanthan trait, actually.  There aren't any
sexual hangups toward prostitution and no laws against it.  This is a distinctly
Earth bias you're bringing into the game based on your own sexual hangups, LoD.
And for that matter, a noble's aide is not necessarily a concubine.  It's an assistant that
could perform any number of tasks based on the qualities of that individual.  For all you
know, that "pretty f-me" you've been obsessing about was hired to be a psionic
hitman.  You're judging pcs in game based on your out of game 21st century views,
and it makes you unable to truly immerse yourself in the gameworld as a result.

I agree.  Too bad I didn't say prejudices based on gender.  You assumed that since you seem to be under the belief that I "disagree" with the fact that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas, even though I've stated that directly elsewhere in my post.  I distinctly outline the factors being one's actions, appearance and demeanor.  Prejudices are based on interactions with a similar people or group of people.  You don't seem to have a grasp on the concept that someone can build prejudices solely within the game environment that are NOT based on RL, Earth or any reference to gender.

You didn't need to say preferences on gender, since I said it for you and stated multiple
times why it applied to the situation.  Again, you're ignoring the content and scrutinizing
choice of words.  I'm saying sexism exists in the playerbase and is being transferred
into the game via this outlet of claiming that allegedly attractive pcs, again judged purely
on a western player's mindset, is somehow made for netsex and is less of a character in
validity, thereby demonstrating a prejudice (see definition please) that is ooc rather
than ic and being brought into the game as a foreign influence that does not belong.
I am all for prejudice if it fits with the setting.  Racism, classism, territorialism are
the ones that fit.  Gender bias does not, and it is the foundation, like it or not, of this
entire f-me terminology.  Your distinctly outlined factors of appearance and behavior
are what you bring into the game as a player, not your character, and has no place in
this setting.

I'm not ignoring anything the Imms have laid forth, in fact many of my points are supporting it.  If you reread my post with the understanding that I am meeting the OP's question with specific regard to female PC's and not addressing male PC's, then you will understand much of what I say agrees with you, but your comments are one sided and geared to protect a group for which you obviously have strong feelings.

They do not.  Please reread Sanvean's post.  I know you're meeting the OP's question,
and the entire question finds its foundation in the idea that his/her inability immerse
him/herself into the game world properly should mean that others are punished
for his/her lack of interpretive abilities in regard to perceiving Zalanthas through his/her
character's eyes.  My comments are not one-sided.  If anything, I've had a long time
to observe this situation and found that it's the result of weak roleplaying, nothing
else.

My contention is that "pretty" people are not sarosanct from prejudice, mistreatment or loathing.  If my character meets 5 "pretty" characters, male or female, and 4/5 of them exhibit sexually aggressive behavior that in some way effects my character in a negative fashion (i.e. getting a promotion over me because they ASSUME it's because of a sexual relationship rather than tangible merit), then what will happen is a natural prejudice forms against future "pretty" people based purely on in-game interaction.

And my contention is that you're bringing in a prejudice based on 21st century bias
that you are unable to purge yourself of in order to properly play your character and
his/her viewpoints, likes and dislikes.  The fact that someone was promoted over
you and you blame the more attractive pc rather than the individual who did the
promoting is a farce designed to place all responsibility on female pcs because some
guy was typing one-handed while he was playing.  Again, beauty is in the eye of
the beholder, so blame the beholder and not the beauty.  Even worse is the fact that
you actually think assumptions being brought into this conversation is a valid point,
and the epitome of exactly the problem with the entire f-me slang.  The entire situation
is an assumption based on abject chauvinism that attempts to distract blame for your
personal, sexual hangups away from yourself and to someone you perceive as having
an unfair advantage--when it might not be the case at all.  At some point, you and other
all the other misogyinistic players out there have to start taking responsibility for your
own hormones.

Argue it all your want, it's what happens in any life, real or imagined, Earth or Zalanthas, male or female.

It happens on Earth, so it must be on Zalanthas too?  I'm shocked to be seeing such
a lack of understanding of this basic tenet of Zalanthan culture from someone who
had played here as long as I have.  Holy merde...  :shock:

[Intrepid]

Intrepid, you need to pause for a moment and consider that you're essentially reasoning backward from assumed prejudicial behavior, instead of thinking forward from concrete principles.  As a result, you are exhibiting your own brand of unreasonable prejudice...against those who don't like beautiful PCs.  You also need to consider alternative explanations, because  a certain PC's hatred of beautiful PCs is not necessarily based on OOC motivations.  As LoD explained quite nicely, there can be many different reasons behind the formation of such an attitude.

The same kind of rationale could exist for kank-riding elves too.  Any rationale you
try to sneak into the equation to justify your brand of play in this regard is the exact
same.  The difference between my dislike of people disliking beautiful pcs and the dislike
of beautiful pcs itself is the fact that mine is entirely based ooc and never enters the game,
while the dislike of beautiful pcs is a problem that is exhibited constantly in game as
a result of outside, personal influences and sexual hangups that have no place in the
gameworld.

Yes, purely gender-based prejudice, a priori, is unacceptable.  However, gender-based prejudice -can- become part of any PC's psyche, given the right set of circumstances.

Like the kank-riding elves, there can be any slew of excuses as to why someone will
try to make this acceptable when it's not.  Gender-based prejudice, regardless of your
personal reasoning, never has and never will have a place in the game culture
according to the docs that define the gameworld.

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Your judgement of why someone makes the pc is guesswork designed to rationalize
why you mistreat female, and only female pcs, with contempt for being what you
perceive as attractive.  Your theories are groundless and designed to give you license
to be misogynistic in a world where such behavior should not exist.

Personally, I think you should take some extra time and re-read LoD's posts, because he makes valid points.  Your rebuttal, on the other hand, didn't seem consistent or reasonable at all.

I read it three times, actually.  The fact that you can't even give me that validity in
passing because I absolutely disagree with his and your viewpoints is proof enough
that you are willing to rationalize a misogynistic license at all costs.

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with Intrepid on this issue. If a woman is promoted over you and your Pc goes with "she slept her way to the top" everytime, or even most of the time, then that is OOC brought IC, IMO. If anotehr male gets promoted over you, would you think, "Fuck, he slept his way to the top?" I doubt it, I really do. If you use the same excuse for both, awesome.

[Barzalene]

Besides which, the fact of the matter remains:  beautiful (or perceived-as-beautiful) female PCs are treated (by other PCs, male and female) in a substantially different way than male PCs are treated.  Until this isn't the case, some people will create them in order to capitalize on this advantage (and from my personal experience playing 2 female PCs, I feel comfortable saying that it is, indeed, an advantage).  So sexual bias cuts both ways:  against female PCs (by misogynists) and for female PCs (for whatever reasons...I'm sure there are multiple).

Slightly off the mark, but I was shocked, really shocked at how true this was. I played a male (granted half-elf) and the difference in the way he was treated was huge. Not just in the way that people weren't as open and kind, not just that he didn't have the advantages a female pc has (and I've played some pretty nasty female pc's that wouldn't be the type to get offerered advantages) but he was far more able to just fade into the background. With a male (granted half-elf) pc I had to really work for pc interaction in a way I never had to with any female pc. People are more willing to just rp with female pcs. Period.

[Intrepid]

Slightly off the mark, but I was shocked, really shocked at how true this was. I played a male (granted half-elf) and the difference in the way he was treated was huge. Not just in the way that people weren't as open and kind, not just that he didn't have the advantages a female pc has (and I've played some pretty nasty female pc's that wouldn't be the type to get offerered advantages) but he was far more able to just fade into the background. With a male (granted half-elf) pc I had to really work for pc interaction in a way I never had to with any female pc. People are more willing to just rp with female pcs. Period.

Which is really, truly a failure of the players being unable to immerse themselves
truly and fully into the gameworld.  These are the people who will always be, in some
way, on the outside of the game looking in...and I feel really sorry for them.

[mansa]

I searched the docs.  The only one I found regarding sexism was this one, written by ShaLeah.  The link is right off the front page, and not mentioned anywhere else, yet it's something that people feel is one of the more important things of ArmageddonMUD.

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html

"Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules."

I find sex disgusting so never do it in front of me.  If you feel that you're harmed or losing IC results because I won't sex you, it's your fault.

[Sanvean]

I find these threads tiresome because over and over again I see the same points being made.  FWIW, there is a phenomenon that I have seen happen multiple times in the game: the majority of female leaders are assumed to have slept their way into that position, regardless of their description or their actions, in a way that does not happen with the majority of male leaders - in fact, I don't know that I've ever seen the opposite happen, and a male PC be assumed to have slept his way to power.  Male PCs that have a lot of sex tend to not get stigmatized or talked about for it in the way that female PCs are.  I find this inexpressibly tiresome in both its IC and OOC permutations, but I will point out that in RL people of either gender tend to get their way more often if they are physically attractive.  I would presume it's the same in the game world.

Often the attractiveness of a character tends to get conflated with the language in their description (or the quality of their emotes): if it is poetic or particularly graceful, some people will equate that with seductiveness.  Several people have touched upon this phenomena.

Some of this cloud of verbiage seems to boil down to whether or not there should be attractive people on Zalanthas.  Sure there should - look at any fantasy novel and you will see that some characters are beautiful, some are not.  I would expect the same on our planet.  There are some unrealistic things: people may have perfect teeth or skin in a way that may not reflect the world as accurately as one would hope, but that's not something I want to see in any form or shape policed.  

But I'm locking this thread before we get more and more of the same, because it's discouraging to see some of the same tired assertions made over and over, despite past refutations.  To my mind, the whole f-me term is pretty offensive in the assumptions that it makes, and it seems to me that of the hundreds of female PCs I've seen labelled that way - some of them complex, interesting and wonderfully played characters - only a handful have demonstrated the sort of behavior that I think would merit such a name.

For me, the majority of this discussion seems to be about real world perceptions than about the game.  If a player is allowing OOC opinions to influence how they react to other characters, that's wrong.  Look at the description, assume it's valid (remember that every description you see has been checked by a staff member) and act accordingly.  As for the rest - seriously, just get over it.  There is a great readiness on the part of some of the player base to spend more time ragging on other people's play than looking at their own.  I am sure none of the readers of this thread falls into that category.

Not to mention that if some character, of either gender, uses sexuality to get ahead, that seems perfectly in keeping with a game whose motto is "Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal."  Maybe those players are actually roleplaying better than some of the people casting stones.  Just a thought.

Thanks.  See you all next week.