Where have all the REAL bards gone?

[Anonymous Artist]

Something else I would like to point out is that bards are very social creatures, and some of them spend a great deal socializing.  Why?  Because a large part of being a bard is networking, making connections, and searching for inspiration.  When you think a bard is just sitting around warming a chair in a tavern, that bard is in reality working on these things.  Making and maintaining relationships with people, and gleaning inspiration from people and events around them is all part of it.

[sarahjc]

I did say that I may indeed not be around to see these people perform. It very well be the case. But I also don't see rumors of performance, not when I do see them, do they do anything.  And I said I am -not- singling people out. But this is just my interpretation of what I as a player have seen.

Saying that someone they know has insulted them and they don't want to perform in from of that person, I don't see how that makes sense, unless that person specifically asks for a performance and is declined. That I could see as somewhat insulting. Otherwise you are just cheating the rest of the good tipping public and yourself.

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?  So we have a bunch of "Poets Circle Bards" that are too good to perform because people don't tip them? If that's the case, they should find a new job case what they are doing clearly isn't working out.

Now just one more point on this, you said that "Circle bards do not become famous for sitting around doing nothing. They rise in rank and fame because they DO things."

Well, that depends. Some start off with a name that makes them famous. Like Lisa Marie Presley, she has no talent, but daddy's name makes her a star. Others are born with the name and have talent, like Carnie Wilson. That's not to say that born into the system bards don't do anything, that's not the case at all, they just have an easier time and it and some may in fact not do much to get to where they are.

And others still have to climb their way in to a circle, not an easy task, yet I would think it is the one that would garner the most prestige. Because these are the ones that truly rise in rank and fame because they DO things. Also I think you are forgetting that not everyone can just join a circle it's not easy, and can take years.

First they need to find a sponsor, so they have to prove to someone with money that they are worth something.

Then they need to find a Master Bard without an apprentice, as a master can only take on one apprentice at a time.

Then they must audition to be accepted.

This doesn't always happen right away. It may take a few months, it may take a few years for a Master to be free to take on a new bard.

And so, these are, as far as I have seen in recent months, the ones that you see practicing and publicly performing and these are the ones that people are liable to take note of.


Edited to add, also.. I am not saying that siting around chatting is bad, we all know that socializing is as important to a bard as performance is. But when sitting around is all a bard is known for, it takes away from the role, especially that of a Poets Circle Bard.

The very best Bard I have ever seen was an aide to a noble house and spent an extended amount of time socializing, but also spent a good deal of time with performance as well. As I said, a renaissance woman.

[Anonymous]

Saying that someone they know has insulted them and they don't want to perform in from of that person, I don't see how that makes sense, unless that person specifically asks for a performance and is declined. That I could see as somewhat insulting. Otherwise you are just cheating the rest of the good tipping public and yourself.

Why would you share your talent with people that you feel don't appreciate it, or someone who has insulted you?  It's a social snub, and a statement saying "you don't appreciate me, then you are not worthy of my talents."

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?  So we have a bunch of "Poets Circle Bards" that are too good to perform because people don't tip them? If that's the case, they should find a new job case what they are doing clearly isn't working out.

Again, this goes along with the above statement.  Why should a bard waste time performing for people who don't pay and appreciate them, when they can do private performances for people they know do, and make a much better living?

First they need to find a sponsor, so they have to prove to someone with money that they are worth something.

Then they need to find a Master Bard without an apprentice, as a master can only take on one apprentice at a time.

I think a bard should seek apprenticeship before seeking a sponsor.  Apprenticeships and joining the Circle cost nothing.  Finding a patron is MUCH easier this way.

This doesn't always happen right away. It may take a few months, it may take a few years for a Master to be free to take on a new bard.

The Circle has quite a few Master bards, and it should not take IC years for one of them to have the freedom or time to take on an apprentice.  If it takes IC years for a person to get accepted into the Circle, it usually means that either they aren't trying as hard as they could be, or they are struggling with their talents.

I am not saying that siting around chatting is bad, we all know that socializing is as important to a bard as performance is. But when sitting around is all a bard is known for, it takes away from the role, especially that of a Poets Circle Bard.

It may be what you think a particular bard is known for, but as I said earlier, you can't judge a book by its cover.

[My 2 sids]

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?

Also I think you are forgetting that not everyone can just join a circle it's not easy, and can take years.

I think we need to separate IC from OOC perspectives.   From an IC perspective YES true bards would have to go years of struggling to become the best and perform because its their love.  However, from an OOC perspective those "years of studying" are represented in one's background.  Or, like with all other skills, they aren't masters of their trade when hired.  I mean, you don't see Tor waiting to hire PCs until they have high enough skills even though IC wise Tor would only hire the best.  Finally, bards (as been debated before) are paid only for their performances.  Although, the characters may love to perform for free, a player has to ensure their characters do get money enough to survive on and enough interaction time with other characters.

[Vanth]

From the first post, this thread has not really been about 'generalizations', as much as some of the posters (on all sides) would like to claim that it is, but rather about specific situations only marginally veiled.

I think this can be a useful discussion if kept general, but if people continue to specifically target one anothers' IC actions beneath a thin haze of generalities, the discussion's gonna stop.

[mansa]

On reading through this discussion, the general theme is that there is a culture set-up in game, and people aren't following this 'scheme' of the world.

To solve this problem, you need to start with the immortals, since they control the world.  They need to use the environment and -display how it should be-.  They should play the bartenders and the patrons, and scoff at the non-circle bards, and then applaud and give credit and tokens to the circle ones, who perform.

Next, you need to have the players in high profile roles, as nobles and merchant house family members, to be informed of the 'wrongness' of this missing culture, and to act in a way to bring it back.

And, finally, the players of said 'non-circle' bards should be asked aside, nicely, in-game, what they want to do and how they want to go about doing it, by the staff.

..

We have players who ignore a lot of the world.  It's not just the bards.  It's a lot of different aspects of the world that get missed.  Obviously, the original poster cares greatly about the Tuluki Bards, and we should respect their love.  And they have the backup of Xamminy.  Oooo.

...

I think Higher Tier noble houses should -NOT- hire non-circle bards or give tokens to their performances.

...

I have seen circle bards idle in a tavern.  To me, it appears like it is a borrrring role, based off one player playing them.  I am turned off because of this.  It's like most other roles out there; if I see that it is borring, I'm not going to do it, because I want to do what I feel is fun.  It has to be said that every circle bard is -not- perfect.  And it has to be said that the game flows in circles, where some clans grow in population and some shrink, based off the flow of the players playing different roles.  I remember when certain clans that are seemingly -dead- now were the largest ones in the game.

[Bestatte]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.

They are the ones who show up in town, and everyone flocks around them to hear the latest news from outside. As such, it behooves every "major player" in the world's political arena to pay enormous respect (and sids) to the Bard, because the Bard can utterly destroy an entire House with a single poem. Or, they can bring a previously lower-tiered house to glory.

The bard can soothe a Noble's woes, or cut down a Templar's enemy. The Bard can rouse the rabble or subdue it, or even create rabble where once none existed.

A Bard is not an "entertainer," though his messages are presented in an entertaining manner. The Bard is not a dancer, or a singer, or the man bowing his ukelin at the Templar's feet. The Bard is the mover and shaker of society, the one who people die for, and kill for, just to get close enough to him to convince him to manipulate things their way.

The Bard is the harbinger of doom, the sayer of sooth (shut up I'm on a roll), the Ultimate Messenger. In town square (or your local public tavern), you would hear the Bard intone, "...and the robe of red, bled, while in fight with the white, blood runs in rivulets across the commons, all hail the Sun King!"

He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

[pot_of_stew]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

Another thing, are there circles in tribes? If there aren't. Where do they get their bards?  :wink:

[Maybe42or54]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

[Delirium]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.

They are the ones who show up in town, and everyone flocks around them to hear the latest news from outside. As such, it behooves every "major player" in the world's political arena to pay enormous respect (and sids) to the Bard, because the Bard can utterly destroy an entire House with a single poem. Or, they can bring a previously lower-tiered house to glory.

The bard can soothe a Noble's woes, or cut down a Templar's enemy. The Bard can rouse the rabble or subdue it, or even create rabble where once none existed.

A Bard is not an "entertainer," though his messages are presented in an entertaining manner. The Bard is not a dancer, or a singer, or the man bowing his ukelin at the Templar's feet. The Bard is the mover and shaker of society, the one who people die for, and kill for, just to get close enough to him to convince him to manipulate things their way.

The Bard is the harbinger of doom, the sayer of sooth (shut up I'm on a roll), the Ultimate Messenger. In town square (or your local public tavern), you would hear the Bard intone, "...and the robe of red, bled, while in fight with the white, blood runs in rivulets across the commons, all hail the Sun King!"

He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

There's nothing stopping a bard from being all that if the player behind it is patient, creative, and resourceful enough. A bard isn't going to walk off the street and suddenly be a wham-bang political and social power. They have to first prove that they are capable of being so.

[Agent_137]

When I think of bard, I get the D&D image:
Magicker through song, Demi-fighter, Loremaster, Jack of many trades.

I'm really quite afraid of playing a bard in Arma. I'd fuck it all up.


i still want the samurai type serious warrior who writes poems and sticks them in his helm before he dies.

Too bad writing is ILLEGAL.

[jhunter]

I think Higher Tier noble houses should -NOT- hire non-circle bards or give tokens to their performances.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Tuluki are an artistic society, you're not going to ignore someone who is talented at their art just because they don't have some sort of certification to back it up. They -are- good at their art and should be recognized for it because the arts are so influential. The arts have -no- rules. You're either good or you aren't.

[jhunter]

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.

Exactly. You're not going to ignore the fact that they are good at what they do. You are going to make them more acceptable for you to hire to perform if you like what they do.

Edit: It would make the noble look better IMO, if you are the one that discovered this talent and got them a place in The Circle.

[jhunter]

As JGG said, your employees reflect on you. If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.

You mean they might be upset because you picked some upstart that doesn't live up to their standards and is upstaging them?

I see -nothing- wrong with that. In fact, I think that it's a good thing as it adds to some sort of conflict and competition for the bards.

"I'm of The Circle, I'll show them they're wasting their time with this no-talent fool."

"He fucking made it into The Circle?"

"Going to have to beat them with my own talents and if I can't...there are other ways."

[pot_of_stew]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

Even those who get payed to entertain, they don't nessecarily join the Circles, me thinks. I mean, check out all those street performers that plays guitars and saxaphones or street choirs and such. They are stil considered artists.

[Anonymous Artist]

Whether or not people believe it, this entire thread was originally intented to be a general statement about the population of Tuluk as a whole.  It was intended to spark a discussion about the attitude of PCs toward the arts and the Circle, and to hopefully provoke a solution to the apathy that has been prevailing recently.

I have seen all sorts of PCs from John Q. Public to Lord Fancypants not have the attitude toward the arts that they should, whether it be using the services of a non-Circle bard rather than a Circle bard, to stiffing a Circle bard when they request a performance from that individual.  (Some southerners are more appreciative toward the arts when they are in Tuluk.  Are you Tulukis going to let them show you up?  Show them who is more cultured!)  Bards are providing a service, a service that the people of Tuluk should, according to documentation, desire and enjoy.  You would not ask someone to serve as your bodyguard, and then not bother paying them once they've done their job, would you?

[Xamminy]

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

We are talking about people in Tuluk.  In Tuluk, Bard is a title...and anyone that claims to be a bard is insulting those that have put in the time and been recognized for attaining that title.

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.

Exactly. You're not going to ignore the fact that they are good at what they do. You are going to make them more acceptable for you to hire to perform if you like what they do.

Edit: It would make the noble look better IMO, if you are the one that discovered this talent and got them a place in The Circle.

Oh, you see, the problem here is that if you hire someone and try to get them into the Circle, you'd better really try.  There are characters in Tuluk that, if the players were trying, should be members of the Circle, but they're not.  I'm not condemning the people, but it is the truth.

As JGG said, your employees reflect on you. If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.

You mean they might be upset because you picked some upstart that doesn't live up to their standards and is upstaging them?

I see -nothing- wrong with that. In fact, I think that it's a good thing as it adds to some sort of conflict and competition for the bards.

"I'm of The Circle, I'll show them they're wasting their time with this no-talent fool."

"He fucking made it into The Circle?"

"Going to have to beat them with my own talents and if I can't...there are other ways."

Yes, there's nothing wrong with it...but pretend that you were a real life movie director.  You're part of a company that does wish to continue working with the actor's guild that contains ALL of the celebrities.  You piss off this guild, though, so they go out of their way to make sure that everyone knows how full of crap they think your ENTIRE company is...and they have influence, because they're celebrities.  Imagine how the company would think of this.

Now, translate "actor's guild' into "Poet's Circle," and "director" into "junior noble," and finally "company" into "family."  You see what the problem is?

[LBO]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.


He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

It probably should be mentioned that from a real-life historical perspective the kind of bards that Bestatte is referring to is the Celtic bard. These did indeed have an exalted position within society for some time due to their accumulation of knowledge in areas such as history, genealogy, spirtual wisdom, news, etc. They could travel the land with diplomatic immunity and great gifts were often bestowed on them - often cows as in an agrian society this was the symbol of wealth. Their satires were feared not only for their damaging effect on their reputation but also in that bards were seen as having an almost supernatural ability and these satires often sounded more like curses which could damage health and even bring death. There were rules and rituals however which had to be followed before a satire could be pronounced - it wasn't just on the whim of the bard. Also, the bard was expected to extol the virtues of the tribal chief of whose tribe he was serving and deliver just satires to their enemies, provided he was well-paid for doing so - if he wasn't the satires could very well be reversed. So in that sense the bard wasn't the mover and shaker but more the instrument used in moving and shaking.

It probably should be noted too that to be recognised as a master bard who had this high position in society took a bare minimum of twelve years training and sometimes as much as twenty in a Bardic schools similar to the Circle. Irish filid had to learn by rote 300 poetic metres, 250 primary stories and 100 secondary stories for example as well as an abundance of other knowledge about the stars, nature, etc.

If this is the bard that you want to become on Arm then I would think that rising up in the Circle would be the only way you could receive the proper training to gain the high recognition needed to be an influential bard. I wouldn't think that nobility or templarate would have anything to fear from some half-trained bard singing a derogatory satire - it'd probably be a bit rubbish and the voice carries no authority. Such a person would just disappear without a trace. But the word of a bard of reknown carries authority and weight. I think this concept is perfectly viable on Arm and can be done but it would take a ton of effort to get there. Joining the Circle is the first step on that path. If you don't join the Circle you should never gain the recognition required to be that type of powerful and influential bard in my opinion.

[Delirium]

Agreed, and well put. LBO wrote what I didn't have time to.

[Bestatte]

I totally agree that this seems the whole point of the Bardic Circles.

However my observation is that it doesn't work that way. My own experience was at the very beginning stages of the Circles...when we had group performances... and I remember one of the "higher ranking" bards trying to get a few of us to figure out the timing/placement of a "round" song.. where one person starts, the other starts while the first is a few words down, the third person starts a few words later, etc. etc. and they all end together. In piano terms it's kinda like a fugue.

And another chick spent all her time working out dazzling emotes on dancing and contortions...

It just seemed so pointless to me. It seemed like nothing more than a bunch of circus performers. The songs had little or no political flavor at all, or were the "usual" "Hail Sun King" stuff that people in the north would expect to hear from a northern entertainer.

Fast forward a year to another phase of bards (I skipped a phase because I wasn't up north then), hearing the same "The south sucks, north rocks" stuff..worded differently, but still - generic "proof" to whoever was listening that the bard was loyal to the north.

It just seems pretty flat. All the manipulation stuff done by the bards I observed, was done not as a bard, but as a spy pretending to be an entertainer. Again - to me, a bard wouldn't have to pretend to do anything. Those celtic bards are exactly what I'm talking about..but they begin their training when they're VERY young, so by the time they'd show up in Zalanthas as adult PCs, they'd already be at some fair level of "automatic" respect. Kinda like a young junior noble. He hasn't proven himself to the PC population yet, but you STILL give that noble respect, at least in the public eye, from the moment he shows up in the game wearing his signet ring.

[Bakha]

One thing that a lot of people seem to be leaving out of the equation is that we're talking about Tuluk. While Tuluki have appreciation for the arts, that appreciation is extremely codified. From licensing of theft and assasination to caste tattoos to Bardic circles to "respect" for authority, Tuluki culture emphasizes ritual, social grouping and, to some degree, conformity.

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

All of the above is just my own opinion as someone who was around when Tuluk was being rebuilt, but who hasn't actually played in the game or watched people play in Tuluk is a couple of years.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

[jhunter]

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

This is what I think should happen rather than people complaining on the boards about it.

[sarahjc]

One thing that a lot of people seem to be leaving out of the equation is that we're talking about Tuluk. While Tuluki have appreciation for the arts, that appreciation is extremely codified. From licensing of theft and assasination to caste tattoos to Bardic circles to "respect" for authority, Tuluki culture emphasizes ritual, social grouping and, to some degree, conformity.

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

All of the above is just my own opinion as someone who was around when Tuluk was being rebuilt, but who hasn't actually played in the game or watched people play in Tuluk is a couple of years.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

This couldn't have been said any better

[Agent_137]

This is what I think should happen rather than people complaining on the boards about it.

Two pronged attacks tend to be most effective. In doing both, you cover all your bases.

[notjhunter (honest)]

One of the reasons to post anon. is so that the post stands on it's own, and isn't boosted up or tainted by any preconceptions people have of the person posting.

why do they have those abot some peoplz/


how cum ya put dat link dere to find yer answer?