Where have all the REAL bards gone?

[mansa]

This post in reference to this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128582#128582

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

Which is why there should be pressure from up high on the "society's examples" to follow through.  The special app'd characters in leading roles shouldn't hire or pay tribute to them.  The non-circle bard may be the best in the world, but they still are an uncultured whore without a tattoo.

[jhunter]

This post in reference to this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128582#128582

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

Which is why there should be pressure from up high on the "society's examples" to follow through.  The special app'd characters in leading roles shouldn't hire or pay tribute to them.  The non-circle bard may be the best in the world, but they still are an uncultured whore without a tattoo.

So from what you're saying then...the "art" really doesn't matter to Tuluki only your social standing? I thought Tuluki were a bit above that and that appreciation for the arts took precedence. From what you're saying realistically Tuluki don't care as much about the "arts" as they say they do.

That sounds more like an Allanaki attitude IMO.

[LBO]

So from what you're saying then...the "art" really doesn't matter to Tuluki only your social standing? I thought Tuluki were a bit above that and that appreciation for the arts took precedence. From what you're saying realistically Tuluki don't care as much about the "arts" as they say they do.

That sounds more like an Allanaki attitude IMO.

I don't think Bakha is saying that the "art" doesn't really matter. Its maybe more a question of precedence. Talent and ability are appreciated, provided they are controlled.  Social standing and your place in society is obviously important in Tuluk as the caste tattoos indicate. While they signify more than standing of course they serve the purpose of labelling precisely where you fall in Tuluki society. I'm not sure a notable Tuluki would be willing to face lowering their social standing all because of their dogged loyalty to the the arts.

[Xamminy]

Oh, yes, the art matters.  Still, as mansa said, you can have made the best piece of art in the world...you're the best!  You're still a lowlife scumbag that hasn't bothered to follow the correct procedures.  Tuluki's will still appreciate the art...but not the artist.

[Bakha]

Modern analogies usually fall miserably short in Zalanthas, but I'll try my hand at one anyway.

I think that an independent bard turning up at a bardic competition in Tuluk would be akin to some heroin addict street artist showing up at a major art opening at MOMA. People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

Art does not stand alone. The artist's identity plays a central role in the audience's appreciation and interpretation of the text or art piece. In a society like Tuluk where identity is so heavily codified, I can see people's interpretation of what is "good" being based heavily on the artist and the artist's standing in society. Of course, in Western society, we're in love with the concept of the artist as rebel, junkie, visionary, revolutionary, and stretcher of the boundaries of culture. I don't think that Zalanthans necessarily have the same love for noncomformity.

[jhunter]

I'm not sure a notable Tuluki would be willing to face lowering their social standing all because of their dogged loyalty to the the arts.

See that's just it, I don't see it as lowering their social standing.
Now if they just kept hiring them over those of The Circle and never did anything to fix the fact that they weren't part of it or weren't getting any "formal" training I suppose that would be looked down upon.

The way I see it is that if a noble discovered this "unclanned performer" and they were really good, the noble works to get them into The Circle and then gets to take credit for their discovery of the talent.

On an OOC level though, I feel as if what some of you are saying is true it's another way to "force" people into clans they may not want to be in.

[jhunter]

I don't think that Zalanthans necessarily have the same love for noncomformity.

But I feel that Tuluki would...if they didn't they'd still be under Allanaki control.

People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

Right, but they would still probably "buy" their art if they liked it.

[sarahjc]

Interestingly enough, what you are all barking over here is two PC's that play "active bards" in one way or another, that are calling themselves bards and that aren't affiliated with a circle. To make this worse, these people are bards for a wealthy house (GASP!)

Now, what non of you know,-NONE-  is why these people aren't in a circle and wither you are wrong or right about it,  it is something to be handled IC.  Nothing irritates me more that people that come in here with an IC grip "anonymously" and bitch about current IC events.  If you don't like it, do something about it in game or write the Imm's. If you have already, then have patients. cause all you do here is flare tempers and cause confusion.

Now a few points to clean up.

In TULUK or anywhere else a bard is a bard.  NO-WHERE  in the documentation does it say  that a guy holding a fiddle can't call himself a bard. He just can't call himself a Poet's Circle bard.  

100%  wrong on that one Xamminy.

As for political upheaval, yes I think you have a point. Bards, especially bards from noble houses, should be a part of the Poets Circle.

And a statement could be made FROM EITHER SIDE by them not being there.  Moreover, if there was a problem with what was going in game with this sort of thing, I would think that the Immortals would focus on it and something would be done.  It might just even be a simple oversight or some other technicality.  Who knows.


Though I think this thread is helpful and is a good topic to discuss.  It's origins are faulty at best. I would have much rather this been a thread about what people think the responsibility of  "a poets circle bard" is in Tuluk and what can make the role desirable, rather than someone barking at us what "IS" the right way to play them, and why "ALL TULUK" should bow down, then spend the rest of the thread defending their  PC.

Also when giving such opinions, especially ones slighting the rp others, have a backbone and own up to your posts.

With that, I leave this thread to prevent myself from flaming it futher.

[sarahjc]

I think that an independent bard turning up at a bardic competition in Tuluk would be akin to some heroin addict street artist showing up at a major art opening at MOMA. People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

I disagree, though perhaps in the past that may have been the case, with recent competitions, many non-circle performers have attended from all over and due to that, the compititions are a lot more IC fun.

Tuluk is rooted in tradition, but how can new talent be found if it is never givin a chance to be seen?

I do think that some compition should be closed out and exclusive. But too much of that sort of thing just reaks of Southern Style. I always thought of Tuluk as a more open and accepting society. The Nobility walk amongst the people. Festivals, the gardens, even some bardic competitions are open for everyone, except for southerners that is. But that independ spirit is what makes Tuluk the bunny hugging place we all know and love. Why give "the arts" an allanaki feel by making it an exclusive club.

And besides, I can think of may heroine junkie superstars making their way back to 5th ave apartments. Courtney Love anyone??

[jhunter]

I do think that some compition should be closed out and exclusive. But too much of that sort of thing just reaks of Southern Style. I always thought of Tuluk as a more open and accepting society. The Nobility walk amongst the people. Festivals, the gardens, even some bardic competitions are open for everyone, except for southerners that is. But that independ spirit is what makes Tuluk the bunny hugging place we all know and love. Why give "the arts" an allanaki feel by making it an exclusive club.

Damned skippy.

[Bakha]

And besides, I can think of may heroine junkie superstars making their way back to 5th ave apartments. Courtney Love anyone??

See, there's the reason I don't like using analogies. Too easy to refute.

It's evident that this thread isn't really an abstract discussion so much as a commentary on things that are going on ingame right now. Seeing as I have no clue about those things, I'll bow out.

[Xamminy]

I'm not 100% wrong, sarahjc.  We're talking about Tuluk, and in Tuluk, those that live in the 5th Ave apartments (the Chosen, to use Bakha's analogy) would not deign the junky worthy of employment, even though they may appreciate the art, without the junky cleaning themselves up and making themselves presentable (i.e. joining the Poet's Circle).

Yes, the competitions are about the art themselves.  They are not about who is representing who.  If a Chosen was to hire a bard, this bard would be a representation of the Chosen.  If the Chosen hires a grubby non-Circle bard, they should be prepared to be regarded as outside of the normal and accepted practices and treated as such.  It doesn't matter WHY the Chosen has hired this person or WHY this person is not a member of the Circle, there will be rumors and whispers and other bards (mostly members of the Circle) helping to spread these rumors about how that particular Chosen is slumming it, so to speak, in their choice of bardic representation.

[Anonymous Artist]

ONCE AGAIN, THIS THREAD WAS BEGUN WITH THE INTENT TO GET A DISCUSSION GOING ABOUT THE FACT THAT TULUKIS IN GENERAL ARE NOT TREATING BARDS AND ART AS THEY SHOULD.  IT WAS NOT MEANT AS A FLAME OR A STAB AT ANY PARTICULAR PERSON.

Get over yourself, stop taking it personally, and treat the thread for what is is SUPPOSED to be.

[sarahjc]

I'm not 100% wrong, sarahjc.  We're talking about Tuluk, and in Tuluk, those that live in the 5th Ave apartments (the Chosen, to use Bakha's analogy) would not deign the junky worthy of employment, even though they may appreciate the art, without the junky cleaning themselves up and making themselves presentable (i.e. joining the Poet's Circle).

Yes, the competitions are about the art themselves.  They are not about who is representing who.  If a Chosen was to hire a bard, this bard would be a representation of the Chosen.  If the Chosen hires a grubby non-Circle bard, they should be prepared to be regarded as outside of the normal and accepted practices and treated as such.  It doesn't matter WHY the Chosen has hired this person or WHY this person is not a member of the Circle, there will be rumors and whispers and other bards (mostly members of the Circle) helping to spread these rumors about how that particular Chosen is slumming it, so to speak, in their choice of bardic representation.

Again, you say these people are grubs just because they are not bards of the circle??  Nonsense.  If they are acting like spice addicted bums, begging for change, singing horrible songs, then I could see your point, I also don't see a noble house hiring them. If a house decides someone is worthy and they actually have some talent, then I do not see the tecincality of that person not being in a circle yet a problem.

Should the circle bards be upset about it? Yes. Should they bitch and complain about it in game? Certainly. Should they see such behaivor as  a social slight? Of course. Would the common guy drinking a beer at the local tavern care, not very likely.

And you are 100% wrong on the fact that you said people outside the bardic circle aren't called/thought of as bards and should not call themselves such. If you can point me to the doc's that say that they can't be called bards, I'll relent on it. But don't state things as fact that are simply a matter of opinion.  Also please try to stay on the topic in a counterpoint.

I think it's A okay for a bard of the circle to have that opinion as well as snub and laugh at a non-circle bard calling themselves a bard. But that might be only a joke, or thought of as something funny to those in the circle.

Most people are just happy to hear a person sing a nice tune. And as for nobles. Perhaps they would pick up a non-circle bard in the hopes of bringing them into the circle, they could be the responsible party for finding the next great superstar of the city. Maybe they just got busy and haven't had the time to get a sponsorship for them. Maybe the Poet's circle bards should start a little in game drama about it.

My point in this is nothing is written in stone when it comes to who is and is not a bard, and what kind and from who and where. There are guidelines to follow yes and if everyone suck to those, well wouldn't life be boring.

If events in game go against the guidlines. Well, have fun and play that out.

[Seeker]

I think in Tuluk, the word "bard" has a whole host of meanings that it doesn't anywhere else in the Known World.

A bard in Tuluk is a not just a pan-handling singer or street-hustingling entertainer.  In Tuluk, that type of person would be called....er... a panhandling singer or street-hustling entertainer.  

A superior storyteller or an exquite dancer might easily receive reknown for their craft, and admiration for their abilities, but they would probably not ever be called bards by people in the know.  Bards are something different.  

A bard, there, is an embodiment of a particular brand of Tuluki art and culture.  I really think that to take the title of "bard" in Tuluk, you pretty much have to have that official stamp of approval .  You have to be linked into the heritage that is the Poet's Circle.  Otherwise, you are a talented pretender at best.

I don't see anything wrong with any House hiring a promising artisan. That type of patronage is great for the game and reflects positively back upon the sponsoring House, but to call that artisan or perfomer a "bard" in Tuluk is probably wrong.  Might possibly even be a slap in the face to pride that the Gol has for its flaky history and culture.

But that is just one player's opinion, and is not backed up by any documents or IMM-support as far as I know.


Seeker

(colored text inserted after reading sarahjc's post)

[Xamminy]

Yes, sarahjc, the Poet's Circle should be upset.  They probably are.  They are mostly all VNPC's, though, and those that aren't hiring Circle bards or pushing those 'bards' they hire to be Circle bards aren't taking into account the VNPCs it seems.

Also, please stop telling me that I'm 100% wrong.  I never said that people that aren't part of the Poet's Circle can't be called bards...I said they couldn't be called Bards.  Notice that one is capitalized and the others isn't...one is a profession and the other a title.

I NEVER said that a Chosen couldn't hire someone that wasn't a member of the Circle, but they shouldn't be letting this person represent them as a Bard without having joined the Circle.  Maybe the Chosen got busy, sure, but an email to the appropriate IMMs doesn't take that much time, really.

Normally, I'd agree that if things go against the guidelines, that people should RP that those going against the guidelines are stupid or whatnot, but when noone's acting this way, the playerbase needs to be woken up with a discussion like this.

...and perhaps some people should calm down and discuss, taking into account what is being said by both parties and not take anything personal, hmm?

[Random Person]

Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with noble houses hiring non-circle bards. As for why they call themselves bards... That's an entirely IC reason isn't it?

My character calls herself a bard, and she isn't in the Circle. But that's because she can't wait to be accepted/auditioned/whatevered into the Circle (she's a very excitable person). There's an IC reason for you.

[Maybe42or54]

I take it back to the Salarr and the lonely man.

You go to salarr if you want something that will last for more than a few fights.
You go to the lonely man because you just want something cheap that you can use for a fight or two.

[Yang]

I have played several reputable bards, in old poet's circle, after old poets cirlce, before new poets circle, and during new poets circle. I was involved in writing a portion of the docs, mostly drafts.

In the final version of Poets Circle History, Customs and Traditions docs, which has not been changed to my best knowledge, it notes that Poet's Circle does not acknowledge nor really pay much attention to non-circle bards who wish to stay independent. They are beneath consideration. "Who cares??" in other words, seems to be the true bardic consensus. It is not an issue, at all.

As part of the draft that did not make it  final, something -was- mentioned about them being marginalized or made to disappear with much more frequency than Poets Circle members, but again, this is nowhere in the documentation.

Theoretically speaking, the only class of society I can really see having much of a problem with an indie-"bard" (which I like to call, musicians, minstrels or wordsmiths, rather than bards) are the Lirathan templarate, for their own inciduous reasons that I won't get into here. Use your imaginations.

This is my extremely educated, but still mortal, opinion on the matter.

END OF DISCUSSION ;)

[Linedel]

Tangent time!

Back in the day, I played one of the earliest "bard" PCs.

When I reappeared on the board last year, I got a couple of notes.. "Are you THE Linedel?  I remember him, he was a kickass bard!"  These amused me.. 'cause back in the day, I thought I was pretty cool... it was the first character I actually roleplayed with (besides the spice addict rastafarian).

Linedel's entire catalogue consisted of about 3 songs.  Free verse.  No rhyme, no meter.  100% (poorly written) story.  (And back then, there was no "say (with a whatever whatever) blah blah", so it was quite dry.)

Not even remotely a master bard of any sort.

I didn't think out the "bard" part... I had just read the Pern books, and thought.. wow, Masterharper Robinton was a badass.  Coincidentally, he rarely, if ever, performed in those books... he was primarily a political figure.  And that's the direction Linedel was supposed to go.

There was no Poet's Circle at the time.  (The rooms existed - but there was no formal organization, and no significant history that I was aware of.)  There was no model, I just did whatever... and when I realized doing bard-ish stuff was hard, he had an accident... got his neck slashed by some raiders (actually happened), and I had a good IC reason to stay primarily prose.

Somehow, a few people took the minor prose story that I did after that point as amazing bardlike talent... I honestly have no idea why.

The point of this is that there are different requirements in different times, and that playing things in various ways can achieve meaningful results.

My most recent character (the only one I've played since reappearing) was started as a blank slate.  He had no clue what he wanted to do... heard about bards (By the way, I disagree that all Tulukis would know any given performer.  Remember, Zalanthas is harsh.  There is no 40 hour workweek and TV.), and thought it would be an interesting way to make a living.  I wrote a couple of really cheese folk-ish songs, tweaked some children's rhymes... and had a damn good time with some "lower class" people in-game just roleplaying a completely inept wanna-be musician.  This was quite fun, I would definately suggest that anyone that wants to play an "eventual" bard start out at the absolute bottom, skill-wise.


Now, on to the current professionals.  My current character observed a competition or two.  I was blown away.  The quality of pre-prepared performance that I saw was amazing.  It owned.  It made me realize I didn't have the time to play a bard to that level of quality.

Some important things to observe about those performances.  They were definately pre-prepared.  They were polished.  They were edited, probably several times.  I didn't analyze logs later, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had no duplicates of "major" descriptive words.  It takes time to produce that level of performance.  A lot of time.

Let's say the professionals did random performances fairly frequently..  Their average level of performance would be below the quality that they exhibit with the prepared scripts.  Then you get people thinking OOC that X person is a poor bard.  This OOC tendency of observers, because the performer's random emotes aren't as crisp as the ones they spent 2 weeks on, would eventually find its way IC for some.  The bard now has to deal with people bitching about their inconsistant quality.

"Real world" performers are just as bad off the cuff.  (Most, I should say.  Some shine.)  That's why they practice pieces for months before doing recording or going on tour.  Sting never shows up at a club in New York and performs unless it was planned.  Neither would X major bard in-game.  On the other hand, amateur performers do open-mic nights every day.  These are who you'd see in bars.


I encourage anyone who wishes to have their character dabble in "bardish" things to do so.  All whining about professionalism that shouldn't be there or whatever other whines aside, ANY bard-like act, suggesting that you're giving thought to stories, history, etc., should be welcome.  And while it might be best to save inspirations for a more appropriate character, if it has to be released, it has to be released, and any "bard-like" action adds to the game - not subtracts.

Armageddon, like all role-playing games, is not so much a game as an environment for community storytelling.  If your character has got a story, find an IC way to tell it.

My opinions may not agree with those of staff.


(As a lurker, I haven't played for 4-5 months... but this thread debating bards almost makes me want to log in... as much as the threads whining about code preventing people's powerlevel scheme of the week make me not want to...)