Where have all the REAL bards gone?

[Anonymous Artist]

I know this has been discussed before, but nothing seems to have been done about it.  PCs in Tuluk don't seem to fully understand the value of the arts, and the true importance of the Circle.  I have seen quite a few PCs who call themselves bards recently, however, very few of them have been a part of the Circle, nor have they tried to become a part of the Circle.  Anyone who thinks of himself as a bard should be clamoring and trying his damndest to get into the Circle.  Why?

:arrow: Access to the finest, most talented and revered artists and teachers in the entire city.  Anyone who is serious about being an artist would know that joining the Circle means that they will be taught and instructed by the best artists in the world.  By joining the Circle, you will automatically rise in status and be known as a respected artist, because you will be learning from the Masters.

:arrow: Because bards of the Circle are held in much higher esteem and taken much more seriously than people who don't join the Circle.  Unfortunately, a great deal of PCs do not roleplay it this way.  Bards of the Circle should be taken much more seriously, because joining the Circle shows that they are dedicated to their art, not just some Joe Schmoe who is dabbling in music because he picked up an instrument somewhere along the line.  Bards of the Circle study all different forms of art, and they are incredibly versatile.  People seem to think these days that just because someone can play an instrument, that they are bards.  This is not necessarily the truth.

:arrow: Bards of the Circle are famous.  They are the equivalent to Earth's famous movie stars and musicians.  They are Tuluk's Angelina Jolies, Anthony Hopkinses, Tori Amoses, Peter Gabriels, etc.  Anyone who is a serious artist, should aspire to reach that kind of status.  Citizens of Tuluk, especially the upper classes (merchants, nobility, templars) should choose them and their services before someone who is not a part of the Circle.

:arrow: A particular noble House of Tuluk is supposed to be known for being the city's largest patron of the arts.  They should require all of the bards they take into their employ or patronage to either be or become part of the Circle.  If a particular 'bard' does not try to join the Circle, or is turned down, they should seriously consider releasing that person from their service as a bard.  They used to have quite a few PC Circle bards in their employ, but lately they have had none.  In my opinion, they should be working much harder to get Circle bards and to get their bards into the Circle because of the training and the prestige.  They deserve nothing but the best, and they should get it.

:arrow: Non Circle 'bards' that talk about taking on apprentices should be found laughable by most people in the city.  It is common knowledge (or it should be) that only Master Bards take apprentices.  Why would someone whose talent has not been officially recognized by the Circle and therefore the city be respected as a teacher of the arts?  What has that person done to earn that respect except for run his or her mouth, claiming that he or she is worthy?  Join the Circle and prove your worth.

:arrow: Circle bards have a great deal of influence in quite a few aspects of Tuluki life.  They should, but again, people sadly are not roleplaying it out this way.  The song or spoken word of a bard can ruin someone's reputation, or it can boost it upward.  It is common knowledge that bards are extremely observant folks, and their opinions should be trusted because of this.  Almost as much as the nobility, they should be setting fashion trends in the city.  These are but a few examples.  When a bard speaks or acts, people should pay attention.

It is disappointing that a city that holds art in such high regard is becoming more and more apathetic toward the Poets' Circle, the highest bastion of art and entertainment in Tuluk.  I don't know whether it's because of a lack of information about this in the public documentation, or people simply disregarding what is there.  I truly think that something needs to change.

[Anonymous Artist]

And another thing:  Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles.  Why is this?  If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

[Agent_137]

I agree. This post gets a star.

[Praetorian]

I think part of the problem might be that some players like to dabble in music, and because of the quality of their general gameplay, they are able to -really- bring out a high level of quality to their musical emotes and storytelling.  Other players, might seriously want to be viewed as a 'professional' bard but compared to other more seasoned players they are not able to pass it off with quite the same flourish and entertainment factor.
Players that would hire such, want to be entertained - both ICly and OOCly.  If one player that isn't a circle bard has a history of always providing that entertainment versus the not-quite-so-stellar performances of another, then the odds are the first reaction of the wealthy is going to be to hire the more amusing part-time bard.
This problem has several anges to it:
1) First, non-bard players that perform flawless musical masterpieces emote-wise, need to take a step back and ask themselves if they are really that good, or if they are portraying themselves that good.  A few imperfections or mistakes to demonstrate that you are in truth better accustomed to shooting carru through their ballsacks instead of singing ballads might be appropriate.
2) Circle bards need to constantly be attempting to improve how they do things, both in their ability to bring a situation to life through colorful emotes and also through watching others to take similar performances to a higher level entertainment-wise.
3) Those that hire non-circle (non-professional) bards should pronounce that fact in their discussions of those individuals.  Even a casual comment like 'hes good, but hes definately not of the Circle' at least stresses that fact in the mind of viewers, and might remind them in the flow of the entertainment that what they are watching technically isn't the best the city has to offer.  That sort of pressure will at least make individual pcs realize that unless they are a professional bard (circle) then they aren't ever likely to be viewed as a truely great practictioner of those crafts.  Offer a price for services, then ask if they are of the Circle...if they say no, drop your offer.  It proves a point to them, and to those observing the dealings.
4) (more for imms - might already be in place)  Set up the 'Circle' as a series of rankings, higher rank in the Circle demonstrates ability to entertain others beyond the simple proclamation of it being their profession.  It gives the hiring individual a comperative framework to determine who to hire for their event.  Those of the lower rankings should practically be required to watch performances of those of higher ranking, to learn, in hopes of improving themselves to rise in rank.  A low circle rank bard simply might not be worth much - would be like an unknown actor starring in their first movie...prove themselves, and they become a phenomenon (rise in rank).

[Anonymous Artist]

One question (since I can't edit my posts anonymously) and I hope the IMMs can provide their input.  Isn't the Poets' Circle officially sanctioned and recognized by the templarate?

[da mitey warrior]

I'm surprised more PC bards don't start off in the circle.  I've never been a bard but from what I know it's a very sweet set up.  You get your own appartment, extra bard skills, custom made items plus all sorts of IC benifits in game, without hardly any restrictions on your character.  Why make just a bland vanilla bard?

[Spoon]

I don't like some of the ideas in this post. It's a bit "You shall play your character like this:"

Yes, I do agree that the arts should play as big a role as possible in Tuluk, and I agree with all that fame and influence thing that comes with being a member of a circle, and so see why -some- PC's would be striving for this from day one.

However, there are a great deal of individuals out there with their own reasons for, and methods of being, a bard.

Zalanthas must be absolutely stuffed with bards, and I don't like the idea of canning them all in the same place with the same aspirations.

[My 2 sids]

I think Praetorian gave some excellent answers.  
1.  Because bards are 100% role-play based (I've discussed problems with this in my code posts) I think Praet is right that many players (who aren't artistically inclined or have infinite time) don't feel they can handle creating a bard PLUS the entertainment that goes with the character.  

2.  Circle bards would have too much competition, because there are only so many PC bards.  Circle bards have to compete with house bards (I've posted problems with over lapping houses before in the Clan section), Circle bards have to compete with un-clanned bards, and Circle bards have to compete with basically any PC who decides they can emote.  

3.  Finally, after trying many scenarios, I'm convened the game just doesn't support anyone but backstabbing, politically-biased, spy-like characters.  A character who is only there to provide entertainment will not last long or get involved in many plots.  On the other hand, because too many players don't understand how to utilize propaganda (hence Fale flopped) they simply don't use propaganda-savy bards.

[Xamminy]

The problem here is that Tuluk is a city of the arts.  All of the nobles and templars support the arts...and, as has been said many times, the commoners try to emulate the nobles.  Why would a commoner not aspire to be a bard of the Poet's Circle?  Well, there are reasons, but these people would be the exception...not quite as bad as a kank-riding elf, but approaching it.

Part of the problem is that people in Tuluk that are hiring bards don't seem to remember that non-Circle bards would be looked down upon as not as good.  If they were good, wouldn't they be in the 'good bards club' known as the Poet's Circle?

Seriously, I think the same as da mitey warrior...all these people that want to play bards, why not send an email to appropriate people to play one from the Circle?  It's not like you're asking to play a sorcerer noble or something equally ridiculous and high-maintenance.  You just want to play a bard with some caste tattoos that say you're good enough to play for the people with real money.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'll go a step further.  Northern nobles, if you're looking to hire a bard and they aren't in a Circle, PUSH THEM TO JOIN ONE.  Why in the world would you want a sub-par bard?  And frankly, indie bards in Tuluk are just that.  Remember, the bards you hire are a reflection of your status as a noble; the more prestigious the bards you hire, obviously the better a patron of the arts you are.

I'm in complete agreement with those who are concerned about the influx of non-Circle bards in Tuluk.  It's not breaking any rules, but it does bend the atmosphere in the northlands pretty hard.

[Tamarin]

What I want to know is why Cuusardo started this thread anonymously...

[Agent_137]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128408#128408

[jhunter]

And another thing: Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles. Why is this? If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

Because maybe you want to play the bard who isn't already the best? Maybe your pc doesn't consider themselves good enough to be considered? Saying that everyone should be part of the Circle or have to work for it is like saying that noone should play independants, beggars, peddlers...etc...

The real problem is the other players not playing accordingly, not the ones who are playing the noncircle performers.

[Anonymous Artist]

The point of this thread is that Circle bards are THE best.  Everyone who is anyone in Tuluk should know this, and act accordingly.  Those of high society that can afford the best should only be hiring the best, not some two-bit dabblers that picked up a flute or a mandolin somewhere in their lives and learned to play on their own without any training.  (What the hell do they know about high society and etiquette, or how to catch and keep a crowd's attention if they weren't trained properly?)  That is just the way Tuluki society is.  Bardic competitions and large performances should draw crowds like arena games in Allanak, because that is the city's preferred form of entertainment.

SLIGHT DERAIL: To touch on My 2 Sids' post, roleplay guidelines are in place for a reason.  Without them, everyone would just go off and do what they want and it would be anarchy.  Rules that define societies and the people within of are extreme importance in a roleplay mud.

[Anonymous Artist]

And another thing: Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles. Why is this? If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

Because maybe you want to play the bard who isn't already the best? Maybe your pc doesn't consider themselves good enough to be considered? Saying that everyone should be part of the Circle or have to work for it is like saying that noone should play independants, beggars, peddlers...etc...

The real problem is the other players not playing accordingly, not the ones who are playing the noncircle performers.

That is not what people are doing, however.  I have seen a lot of PC bards who don't join the Circle that roleplay themselves as being artists of astounding talent.  If you want to roleplay a real bard, a good bard that people respect and love, either join the Circle, or start your PC out in the Circle.  I mean seriously, if you feel you are that good, why would you not be a part of what someone called "the good bards club"?

[jhunter]

Those of high society that can afford the best should only be hiring the best, not some two-bit dabblers that picked up a flute or a mandolin somewhere in their lives and learned to play on their own without any training. (What the hell do they know about high society and etiquette, or how to catch and keep a crowd's attention if they weren't trained properly?) That is just the way Tuluki society is. Bardic competitions and large performances should draw crowds like arena games in Allanak, because that is the city's preferred form of entertainment.

Sorry but I disagree.
With the arts being so appreciated no Tuluki would ignore the fact that someone might have natural talent, the fact that they are not part of the Circle is a mere technicality.
I do think that those who recognize it would work to get them in the Circle though if they are good enough to be paying for their services.

I seriously doubt that a Tuluki noble would turn down hiring a performer that's showing real talent just because they aren't a part of the Circle. More likely and realistically I'd think, they'd hire them because they -like- what they do and would work to get them in the Circle where -they- believe they belong.

[jhunter]

If you want to roleplay a real bard, a good bard that people respect and love, either join the Circle, or start your PC out in the Circle. I mean seriously, if you feel you are that good, why would you not be a part of what someone called "the good bards club"?

Maybe you want to play the undiscovered talent, the one who hopes to make it into the Circle one day? Maybe you want to play through the experience of "making it" instead of starting out "already there"?


Edited to add: It's the journey that makes it all the more fun, not the end of the road IMO.

[My 2 sids]

Zalanthas must be absolutely stuffed with bards, and I don't like the idea of canning them all in the same place with the same aspirations.

Zalanthas may be stuffed with bards, but there are only X number of PC bards.  As discussed in other threads clans are a way to bring PCs together who share a common goal.  The majority of PCs (in order to accurately reflect social norms) should want and strive to be in the Bard Circles (bard clans)  if they wish to play a full-time bard.

[Spoon]

Right on jhunter.

After reading everyones posts, I do see why most Tuluki bard's would have great interest in joining the circle.

But your missing a pretty hoooj oppourtunity for roleplaying the rise of a talented bard if you start in a circle. Certain characters, ie. ones born into a circle, are an obvious exception to this, as the fact they are already in a circle is a really important part of their background.

[sarahjc]

Another interesting point that I personally think is important is that bards from the poet's circle promote the circle.  One major thing is performing.  I know of in game a few bards from the poets circle, and I have seen 0 performing outside of competition. Most just sit and warm tavern benches. For those who are being seen as "superstars" of the known world, I rarely see them as anything more than local gossips.  For some reason it is the indy bards that do all the singing and dancing about.

I never see bards telling stories or offering performances. Creating songs to impress nobles or putting on shows. As much as the Job of poets circle bard demands prestige, it is not something that is given easily.  I don't see why a noble should give more favor to a bard that sits around all day and never asks me if I would like to be entertained, than to one that does. Just because they are a circled bard? So what?

That's like saying, you would pay more attention to Mickey Roark or alix Baldwin, than a fresh face that just got a major role in a film, Just cause they are part of the screen actors guild, doesn't mean they aren't all washed up. It just doesn't make sense. To me show business is all about staying on top and being the best and that should be a constant struggle.  

And this is not to single anyone out at all, people may perform often and I may not see it or may be doing other things. Some people may not feel that performance is important. But to me, it is and it's the thing I see the least of.  I would say that if you want more people to aspire to the role of "Bardic Circle Bard" than make a role to be aspired to.

When I wanted my next role to be a poets circle bard, it was because there was an amazing bard playing at the time. She told stories, held performances, was the ever-fresh face about town. She was a renaissance woman. This to me is what a bard should always be.  She was involved with the circle as well as her house, it was truly a role that others would easily wish to aspire to.

[LBO]

Maybe you want to play the undiscovered talent, the one who hopes to make it into the Circle one day? Maybe you want to play through the experience of "making it" instead of starting out "already there"?


Edited to add: It's the journey that makes it all the more fun, not the end of the road IMO.

I'd agree with that concept and there is nothing wrong starting out as an aspiring Circle member. Just, players should accept the responsibility that while their character may be talented that is not the same as having astounding ability. To become recognised as a master of your area of music takes teaching from a master. If you want to be seen as a bard of astounding ability then the Circle is your only option really as any bard of note will be a member there and its the only place you'll find the level of expertise high enough to teach you to be that good. If you want to be seen as a pretty decent musician or you want to play the bard who tries but just isn't good enough then not being part of the Circle is fine in my opinion.

[Xamminy]

Sorry but I disagree.
With the arts being so appreciated no Tuluki would ignore the fact that someone might have natural talent, the fact that they are not part of the Circle is a mere technicality.
I do think that those who recognize it would work to get them in the Circle though if they are good enough to be paying for their services.

I seriously doubt that a Tuluki noble would turn down hiring a performer that's showing real talent just because they aren't a part of the Circle. More likely and realistically I'd think, they'd hire them because they -like- what they do and would work to get them in the Circle where -they- believe they belong.

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.  As JGG said, your employees reflect on you.  If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.  A particular noble house has a rule of only hiring Poet's Circle bards or those that will be enrolled before they can claim to be a bard for the House.  [Edited]...it is something that, in my opinion, should be enforced.  Do you hire some bum off the street when you are throwing a 5-star banquet with all the celebrities and political figures within any distance that can make it...or do you hire a professional that has references of some sort that would let you know how well the job of performing would be done?  Now, pretend you're hiring a PR agent, which bards also are...do you hire the bum off the street or someone trained by the best for the last ten years?

I disagree with the thought that the hirers are the only problem.  They are the larger portion to this problem..but the hirees are also not seeming to want to join the Circle.  Whether the bard thinks they are worthy of being a member or not, it should be something any Tuluki performer would aspire to...that kind of recognition and backing behind their skills.

[Larrath]

It is possible for some rare commoner to turn out to be a bardic superstar whose parents were eaten alive by a couple of Circle Bards somewhere.
Sure.
That commoner would pretty much never be hired no matter HOW good he was, not [only] because they would be looked down at, but also because their patrons would be looked down at for not taking a Circle bard.

It's kinda like having a kickass warrior elf who's one of the best indie bodyguards on Zalanthas.  People are still probably not going to hire you, especially if they have to do it openly and have to worry about their reputations.

Nobles that hire non-Circle bards should be expected to put these bards in a Circle for fear of being looked at as a stupid goof that has no true appreciation for the arts and is trying to use some cheap, shoddy commoner to hide that fact.

[Anonymous Artist]

sarahjc, just because you have not seen Circle bards perform outside of a competition does not mean that they never do.  Your perspective is limited, because you are not always where the bards are.  I have seen Circle bards do plenty of public performances all over the city (as well as other places beyond Tuluk, like Luir's Outpost), some by request of others, some spur of the moment by their own volition.  You just happen to be missing them.

It could be that your or someone else's character has offended some bards of the Circle, and they do not wish to perform in front of those people.  It could be that your playtimes do not coincide with when people do these things, or that you are not present in the venue they perform in.  Circle bards do not become famous for sitting around doing nothing.  They rise in rank and fame because they DO things.

It could also be the general apathy of players toward the arts that makes people not wish to perform.  There have been times when bards have performed when no one paid attention, or they haven't gotten tipped (which is customary for those who can afford it, especially nobility and templars), or they've been asked by people to play and the person who requested the performance did not bother to pay them for their time and effort.[/u]

[My 2 sids]

It could also be the general apathy of players toward the arts that makes people not wish to perform. There have been times when bards have performed when no one paid attention, or they haven't gotten tipped (which is customary for those who can afford it, especially nobility and templars), or they've been asked by people to play and the person who requested the performance did not bother to pay them for their time and effort

A good point.  As long as the players aren't willing to recognize certain types of characters or clans... there won't be any change.

[Anonymous Artist]

Something else I would like to point out is that bards are very social creatures, and some of them spend a great deal socializing.  Why?  Because a large part of being a bard is networking, making connections, and searching for inspiration.  When you think a bard is just sitting around warming a chair in a tavern, that bard is in reality working on these things.  Making and maintaining relationships with people, and gleaning inspiration from people and events around them is all part of it.

[sarahjc]

I did say that I may indeed not be around to see these people perform. It very well be the case. But I also don't see rumors of performance, not when I do see them, do they do anything.  And I said I am -not- singling people out. But this is just my interpretation of what I as a player have seen.

Saying that someone they know has insulted them and they don't want to perform in from of that person, I don't see how that makes sense, unless that person specifically asks for a performance and is declined. That I could see as somewhat insulting. Otherwise you are just cheating the rest of the good tipping public and yourself.

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?  So we have a bunch of "Poets Circle Bards" that are too good to perform because people don't tip them? If that's the case, they should find a new job case what they are doing clearly isn't working out.

Now just one more point on this, you said that "Circle bards do not become famous for sitting around doing nothing. They rise in rank and fame because they DO things."

Well, that depends. Some start off with a name that makes them famous. Like Lisa Marie Presley, she has no talent, but daddy's name makes her a star. Others are born with the name and have talent, like Carnie Wilson. That's not to say that born into the system bards don't do anything, that's not the case at all, they just have an easier time and it and some may in fact not do much to get to where they are.

And others still have to climb their way in to a circle, not an easy task, yet I would think it is the one that would garner the most prestige. Because these are the ones that truly rise in rank and fame because they DO things. Also I think you are forgetting that not everyone can just join a circle it's not easy, and can take years.

First they need to find a sponsor, so they have to prove to someone with money that they are worth something.

Then they need to find a Master Bard without an apprentice, as a master can only take on one apprentice at a time.

Then they must audition to be accepted.

This doesn't always happen right away. It may take a few months, it may take a few years for a Master to be free to take on a new bard.

And so, these are, as far as I have seen in recent months, the ones that you see practicing and publicly performing and these are the ones that people are liable to take note of.


Edited to add, also.. I am not saying that siting around chatting is bad, we all know that socializing is as important to a bard as performance is. But when sitting around is all a bard is known for, it takes away from the role, especially that of a Poets Circle Bard.

The very best Bard I have ever seen was an aide to a noble house and spent an extended amount of time socializing, but also spent a good deal of time with performance as well. As I said, a renaissance woman.

[Anonymous]

Saying that someone they know has insulted them and they don't want to perform in from of that person, I don't see how that makes sense, unless that person specifically asks for a performance and is declined. That I could see as somewhat insulting. Otherwise you are just cheating the rest of the good tipping public and yourself.

Why would you share your talent with people that you feel don't appreciate it, or someone who has insulted you?  It's a social snub, and a statement saying "you don't appreciate me, then you are not worthy of my talents."

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?  So we have a bunch of "Poets Circle Bards" that are too good to perform because people don't tip them? If that's the case, they should find a new job case what they are doing clearly isn't working out.

Again, this goes along with the above statement.  Why should a bard waste time performing for people who don't pay and appreciate them, when they can do private performances for people they know do, and make a much better living?

First they need to find a sponsor, so they have to prove to someone with money that they are worth something.

Then they need to find a Master Bard without an apprentice, as a master can only take on one apprentice at a time.

I think a bard should seek apprenticeship before seeking a sponsor.  Apprenticeships and joining the Circle cost nothing.  Finding a patron is MUCH easier this way.

This doesn't always happen right away. It may take a few months, it may take a few years for a Master to be free to take on a new bard.

The Circle has quite a few Master bards, and it should not take IC years for one of them to have the freedom or time to take on an apprentice.  If it takes IC years for a person to get accepted into the Circle, it usually means that either they aren't trying as hard as they could be, or they are struggling with their talents.

I am not saying that siting around chatting is bad, we all know that socializing is as important to a bard as performance is. But when sitting around is all a bard is known for, it takes away from the role, especially that of a Poets Circle Bard.

It may be what you think a particular bard is known for, but as I said earlier, you can't judge a book by its cover.

[My 2 sids]

Also saying that apathy towards the arts is what makes bards not perform is just ridiculous and contradictory to your point. Bards, especially poets circle bards should be performing for the love of performance/improvement. Yes, they could be insulted if they do not get tipped or paid once. But to stop performing because of it?

Also I think you are forgetting that not everyone can just join a circle it's not easy, and can take years.

I think we need to separate IC from OOC perspectives.   From an IC perspective YES true bards would have to go years of struggling to become the best and perform because its their love.  However, from an OOC perspective those "years of studying" are represented in one's background.  Or, like with all other skills, they aren't masters of their trade when hired.  I mean, you don't see Tor waiting to hire PCs until they have high enough skills even though IC wise Tor would only hire the best.  Finally, bards (as been debated before) are paid only for their performances.  Although, the characters may love to perform for free, a player has to ensure their characters do get money enough to survive on and enough interaction time with other characters.

[Vanth]

From the first post, this thread has not really been about 'generalizations', as much as some of the posters (on all sides) would like to claim that it is, but rather about specific situations only marginally veiled.

I think this can be a useful discussion if kept general, but if people continue to specifically target one anothers' IC actions beneath a thin haze of generalities, the discussion's gonna stop.

[mansa]

On reading through this discussion, the general theme is that there is a culture set-up in game, and people aren't following this 'scheme' of the world.

To solve this problem, you need to start with the immortals, since they control the world.  They need to use the environment and -display how it should be-.  They should play the bartenders and the patrons, and scoff at the non-circle bards, and then applaud and give credit and tokens to the circle ones, who perform.

Next, you need to have the players in high profile roles, as nobles and merchant house family members, to be informed of the 'wrongness' of this missing culture, and to act in a way to bring it back.

And, finally, the players of said 'non-circle' bards should be asked aside, nicely, in-game, what they want to do and how they want to go about doing it, by the staff.

..

We have players who ignore a lot of the world.  It's not just the bards.  It's a lot of different aspects of the world that get missed.  Obviously, the original poster cares greatly about the Tuluki Bards, and we should respect their love.  And they have the backup of Xamminy.  Oooo.

...

I think Higher Tier noble houses should -NOT- hire non-circle bards or give tokens to their performances.

...

I have seen circle bards idle in a tavern.  To me, it appears like it is a borrrring role, based off one player playing them.  I am turned off because of this.  It's like most other roles out there; if I see that it is borring, I'm not going to do it, because I want to do what I feel is fun.  It has to be said that every circle bard is -not- perfect.  And it has to be said that the game flows in circles, where some clans grow in population and some shrink, based off the flow of the players playing different roles.  I remember when certain clans that are seemingly -dead- now were the largest ones in the game.

[Bestatte]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.

They are the ones who show up in town, and everyone flocks around them to hear the latest news from outside. As such, it behooves every "major player" in the world's political arena to pay enormous respect (and sids) to the Bard, because the Bard can utterly destroy an entire House with a single poem. Or, they can bring a previously lower-tiered house to glory.

The bard can soothe a Noble's woes, or cut down a Templar's enemy. The Bard can rouse the rabble or subdue it, or even create rabble where once none existed.

A Bard is not an "entertainer," though his messages are presented in an entertaining manner. The Bard is not a dancer, or a singer, or the man bowing his ukelin at the Templar's feet. The Bard is the mover and shaker of society, the one who people die for, and kill for, just to get close enough to him to convince him to manipulate things their way.

The Bard is the harbinger of doom, the sayer of sooth (shut up I'm on a roll), the Ultimate Messenger. In town square (or your local public tavern), you would hear the Bard intone, "...and the robe of red, bled, while in fight with the white, blood runs in rivulets across the commons, all hail the Sun King!"

He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

[pot_of_stew]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

Another thing, are there circles in tribes? If there aren't. Where do they get their bards?  :wink:

[Maybe42or54]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

[Delirium]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.

They are the ones who show up in town, and everyone flocks around them to hear the latest news from outside. As such, it behooves every "major player" in the world's political arena to pay enormous respect (and sids) to the Bard, because the Bard can utterly destroy an entire House with a single poem. Or, they can bring a previously lower-tiered house to glory.

The bard can soothe a Noble's woes, or cut down a Templar's enemy. The Bard can rouse the rabble or subdue it, or even create rabble where once none existed.

A Bard is not an "entertainer," though his messages are presented in an entertaining manner. The Bard is not a dancer, or a singer, or the man bowing his ukelin at the Templar's feet. The Bard is the mover and shaker of society, the one who people die for, and kill for, just to get close enough to him to convince him to manipulate things their way.

The Bard is the harbinger of doom, the sayer of sooth (shut up I'm on a roll), the Ultimate Messenger. In town square (or your local public tavern), you would hear the Bard intone, "...and the robe of red, bled, while in fight with the white, blood runs in rivulets across the commons, all hail the Sun King!"

He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

There's nothing stopping a bard from being all that if the player behind it is patient, creative, and resourceful enough. A bard isn't going to walk off the street and suddenly be a wham-bang political and social power. They have to first prove that they are capable of being so.

[Agent_137]

When I think of bard, I get the D&D image:
Magicker through song, Demi-fighter, Loremaster, Jack of many trades.

I'm really quite afraid of playing a bard in Arma. I'd fuck it all up.


i still want the samurai type serious warrior who writes poems and sticks them in his helm before he dies.

Too bad writing is ILLEGAL.

[jhunter]

I think Higher Tier noble houses should -NOT- hire non-circle bards or give tokens to their performances.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Tuluki are an artistic society, you're not going to ignore someone who is talented at their art just because they don't have some sort of certification to back it up. They -are- good at their art and should be recognized for it because the arts are so influential. The arts have -no- rules. You're either good or you aren't.

[jhunter]

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.

Exactly. You're not going to ignore the fact that they are good at what they do. You are going to make them more acceptable for you to hire to perform if you like what they do.

Edit: It would make the noble look better IMO, if you are the one that discovered this talent and got them a place in The Circle.

[jhunter]

As JGG said, your employees reflect on you. If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.

You mean they might be upset because you picked some upstart that doesn't live up to their standards and is upstaging them?

I see -nothing- wrong with that. In fact, I think that it's a good thing as it adds to some sort of conflict and competition for the bards.

"I'm of The Circle, I'll show them they're wasting their time with this no-talent fool."

"He fucking made it into The Circle?"

"Going to have to beat them with my own talents and if I can't...there are other ways."

[pot_of_stew]

Here's my two cent.....*takes a deep breath*

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

Even those who get payed to entertain, they don't nessecarily join the Circles, me thinks. I mean, check out all those street performers that plays guitars and saxaphones or street choirs and such. They are stil considered artists.

[Anonymous Artist]

Whether or not people believe it, this entire thread was originally intented to be a general statement about the population of Tuluk as a whole.  It was intended to spark a discussion about the attitude of PCs toward the arts and the Circle, and to hopefully provoke a solution to the apathy that has been prevailing recently.

I have seen all sorts of PCs from John Q. Public to Lord Fancypants not have the attitude toward the arts that they should, whether it be using the services of a non-Circle bard rather than a Circle bard, to stiffing a Circle bard when they request a performance from that individual.  (Some southerners are more appreciative toward the arts when they are in Tuluk.  Are you Tulukis going to let them show you up?  Show them who is more cultured!)  Bards are providing a service, a service that the people of Tuluk should, according to documentation, desire and enjoy.  You would not ask someone to serve as your bodyguard, and then not bother paying them once they've done their job, would you?

[Xamminy]

We rp realistically. And realistically speakin', there are people that wants to be in the circle and become a real bard blah blah blah. Just like all the people we know around us, some wants to be the next movie star or singer. BUT that does not mean that there are those who take up music just for the pleasure of it.

Why can't there be people who calls themselves bards, without joining the circle? Why does are only people who joined the Circle be considered bards? Real life speaking, there's alot of very good singers and actors without the whole world knowing that. >.<;

ANYHOO, I think that it's cool that there are people OUTSIDE of the Circle doodling with music and playing some non commercial songs and stories and such.

We aren't talking about the people that play as a bard for fun. We are talking about the people who get -payed- to entertain.

We are talking about people in Tuluk.  In Tuluk, Bard is a title...and anyone that claims to be a bard is insulting those that have put in the time and been recognized for attaining that title.

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.

Exactly. You're not going to ignore the fact that they are good at what they do. You are going to make them more acceptable for you to hire to perform if you like what they do.

Edit: It would make the noble look better IMO, if you are the one that discovered this talent and got them a place in The Circle.

Oh, you see, the problem here is that if you hire someone and try to get them into the Circle, you'd better really try.  There are characters in Tuluk that, if the players were trying, should be members of the Circle, but they're not.  I'm not condemning the people, but it is the truth.

As JGG said, your employees reflect on you. If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.

You mean they might be upset because you picked some upstart that doesn't live up to their standards and is upstaging them?

I see -nothing- wrong with that. In fact, I think that it's a good thing as it adds to some sort of conflict and competition for the bards.

"I'm of The Circle, I'll show them they're wasting their time with this no-talent fool."

"He fucking made it into The Circle?"

"Going to have to beat them with my own talents and if I can't...there are other ways."

Yes, there's nothing wrong with it...but pretend that you were a real life movie director.  You're part of a company that does wish to continue working with the actor's guild that contains ALL of the celebrities.  You piss off this guild, though, so they go out of their way to make sure that everyone knows how full of crap they think your ENTIRE company is...and they have influence, because they're celebrities.  Imagine how the company would think of this.

Now, translate "actor's guild' into "Poet's Circle," and "director" into "junior noble," and finally "company" into "family."  You see what the problem is?

[LBO]

I played a bard once, in the Circle, and didn't like it much. I just have a very VERY different viewpoint on the concept of the Bard than the game docs say a bard is in this particular game. I can't get past that, so I won't be playing an "official" bard of a circle again.

Here's how I see bards, from a more real-life historical perspective (which is why I can't get past it)...

A bard is a master politician, bar none. They are the ones the politicians go to for advice. They're the ones who take the seat of honor at the Templar's dinner table. They're the ones standing up on top of the dune watching the battle below, so they can create the stories that will become the future histories of the world.


He is the teacher of history past, the creator of history present, and the manipulator of history future.

It probably should be mentioned that from a real-life historical perspective the kind of bards that Bestatte is referring to is the Celtic bard. These did indeed have an exalted position within society for some time due to their accumulation of knowledge in areas such as history, genealogy, spirtual wisdom, news, etc. They could travel the land with diplomatic immunity and great gifts were often bestowed on them - often cows as in an agrian society this was the symbol of wealth. Their satires were feared not only for their damaging effect on their reputation but also in that bards were seen as having an almost supernatural ability and these satires often sounded more like curses which could damage health and even bring death. There were rules and rituals however which had to be followed before a satire could be pronounced - it wasn't just on the whim of the bard. Also, the bard was expected to extol the virtues of the tribal chief of whose tribe he was serving and deliver just satires to their enemies, provided he was well-paid for doing so - if he wasn't the satires could very well be reversed. So in that sense the bard wasn't the mover and shaker but more the instrument used in moving and shaking.

It probably should be noted too that to be recognised as a master bard who had this high position in society took a bare minimum of twelve years training and sometimes as much as twenty in a Bardic schools similar to the Circle. Irish filid had to learn by rote 300 poetic metres, 250 primary stories and 100 secondary stories for example as well as an abundance of other knowledge about the stars, nature, etc.

If this is the bard that you want to become on Arm then I would think that rising up in the Circle would be the only way you could receive the proper training to gain the high recognition needed to be an influential bard. I wouldn't think that nobility or templarate would have anything to fear from some half-trained bard singing a derogatory satire - it'd probably be a bit rubbish and the voice carries no authority. Such a person would just disappear without a trace. But the word of a bard of reknown carries authority and weight. I think this concept is perfectly viable on Arm and can be done but it would take a ton of effort to get there. Joining the Circle is the first step on that path. If you don't join the Circle you should never gain the recognition required to be that type of powerful and influential bard in my opinion.

[Delirium]

Agreed, and well put. LBO wrote what I didn't have time to.

[Bestatte]

I totally agree that this seems the whole point of the Bardic Circles.

However my observation is that it doesn't work that way. My own experience was at the very beginning stages of the Circles...when we had group performances... and I remember one of the "higher ranking" bards trying to get a few of us to figure out the timing/placement of a "round" song.. where one person starts, the other starts while the first is a few words down, the third person starts a few words later, etc. etc. and they all end together. In piano terms it's kinda like a fugue.

And another chick spent all her time working out dazzling emotes on dancing and contortions...

It just seemed so pointless to me. It seemed like nothing more than a bunch of circus performers. The songs had little or no political flavor at all, or were the "usual" "Hail Sun King" stuff that people in the north would expect to hear from a northern entertainer.

Fast forward a year to another phase of bards (I skipped a phase because I wasn't up north then), hearing the same "The south sucks, north rocks" stuff..worded differently, but still - generic "proof" to whoever was listening that the bard was loyal to the north.

It just seems pretty flat. All the manipulation stuff done by the bards I observed, was done not as a bard, but as a spy pretending to be an entertainer. Again - to me, a bard wouldn't have to pretend to do anything. Those celtic bards are exactly what I'm talking about..but they begin their training when they're VERY young, so by the time they'd show up in Zalanthas as adult PCs, they'd already be at some fair level of "automatic" respect. Kinda like a young junior noble. He hasn't proven himself to the PC population yet, but you STILL give that noble respect, at least in the public eye, from the moment he shows up in the game wearing his signet ring.

[Bakha]

One thing that a lot of people seem to be leaving out of the equation is that we're talking about Tuluk. While Tuluki have appreciation for the arts, that appreciation is extremely codified. From licensing of theft and assasination to caste tattoos to Bardic circles to "respect" for authority, Tuluki culture emphasizes ritual, social grouping and, to some degree, conformity.

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

All of the above is just my own opinion as someone who was around when Tuluk was being rebuilt, but who hasn't actually played in the game or watched people play in Tuluk is a couple of years.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

[jhunter]

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

This is what I think should happen rather than people complaining on the boards about it.

[sarahjc]

One thing that a lot of people seem to be leaving out of the equation is that we're talking about Tuluk. While Tuluki have appreciation for the arts, that appreciation is extremely codified. From licensing of theft and assasination to caste tattoos to Bardic circles to "respect" for authority, Tuluki culture emphasizes ritual, social grouping and, to some degree, conformity.

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

All of the above is just my own opinion as someone who was around when Tuluk was being rebuilt, but who hasn't actually played in the game or watched people play in Tuluk is a couple of years.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason why this can't all be played out and decided in game. If the Circle Bards don't like non-circle bards performing, then approach a Templar or Noble about actually changing the laws. Put pressure on those non-circle bards to join the circle or quit performing. Write songs about them, spread rumors, flatter patrons, change cultural norms: do everything that a Bard in Tuluk -should- do when faced with a social movement of which they disapprove.

This couldn't have been said any better

[Agent_137]

This is what I think should happen rather than people complaining on the boards about it.

Two pronged attacks tend to be most effective. In doing both, you cover all your bases.

[notjhunter (honest)]

One of the reasons to post anon. is so that the post stands on it's own, and isn't boosted up or tainted by any preconceptions people have of the person posting.

why do they have those abot some peoplz/


how cum ya put dat link dere to find yer answer?

[mansa]

This post in reference to this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128582#128582

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

Which is why there should be pressure from up high on the "society's examples" to follow through.  The special app'd characters in leading roles shouldn't hire or pay tribute to them.  The non-circle bard may be the best in the world, but they still are an uncultured whore without a tattoo.

[jhunter]

This post in reference to this:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128582#128582

While a Tuluki would certainly respect the talents of someone that fails to follow the rigid structure of Tuluki society, they'd probably find them at the least distasteful (a non bardic circle bard) and at the worst in violation of the law (as in failure to license for theft or killing).

Which is why there should be pressure from up high on the "society's examples" to follow through.  The special app'd characters in leading roles shouldn't hire or pay tribute to them.  The non-circle bard may be the best in the world, but they still are an uncultured whore without a tattoo.

So from what you're saying then...the "art" really doesn't matter to Tuluki only your social standing? I thought Tuluki were a bit above that and that appreciation for the arts took precedence. From what you're saying realistically Tuluki don't care as much about the "arts" as they say they do.

That sounds more like an Allanaki attitude IMO.

[LBO]

So from what you're saying then...the "art" really doesn't matter to Tuluki only your social standing? I thought Tuluki were a bit above that and that appreciation for the arts took precedence. From what you're saying realistically Tuluki don't care as much about the "arts" as they say they do.

That sounds more like an Allanaki attitude IMO.

I don't think Bakha is saying that the "art" doesn't really matter. Its maybe more a question of precedence. Talent and ability are appreciated, provided they are controlled.  Social standing and your place in society is obviously important in Tuluk as the caste tattoos indicate. While they signify more than standing of course they serve the purpose of labelling precisely where you fall in Tuluki society. I'm not sure a notable Tuluki would be willing to face lowering their social standing all because of their dogged loyalty to the the arts.

[Xamminy]

Oh, yes, the art matters.  Still, as mansa said, you can have made the best piece of art in the world...you're the best!  You're still a lowlife scumbag that hasn't bothered to follow the correct procedures.  Tuluki's will still appreciate the art...but not the artist.

[Bakha]

Modern analogies usually fall miserably short in Zalanthas, but I'll try my hand at one anyway.

I think that an independent bard turning up at a bardic competition in Tuluk would be akin to some heroin addict street artist showing up at a major art opening at MOMA. People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

Art does not stand alone. The artist's identity plays a central role in the audience's appreciation and interpretation of the text or art piece. In a society like Tuluk where identity is so heavily codified, I can see people's interpretation of what is "good" being based heavily on the artist and the artist's standing in society. Of course, in Western society, we're in love with the concept of the artist as rebel, junkie, visionary, revolutionary, and stretcher of the boundaries of culture. I don't think that Zalanthans necessarily have the same love for noncomformity.

[jhunter]

I'm not sure a notable Tuluki would be willing to face lowering their social standing all because of their dogged loyalty to the the arts.

See that's just it, I don't see it as lowering their social standing.
Now if they just kept hiring them over those of The Circle and never did anything to fix the fact that they weren't part of it or weren't getting any "formal" training I suppose that would be looked down upon.

The way I see it is that if a noble discovered this "unclanned performer" and they were really good, the noble works to get them into The Circle and then gets to take credit for their discovery of the talent.

On an OOC level though, I feel as if what some of you are saying is true it's another way to "force" people into clans they may not want to be in.

[jhunter]

I don't think that Zalanthans necessarily have the same love for noncomformity.

But I feel that Tuluki would...if they didn't they'd still be under Allanaki control.

People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

Right, but they would still probably "buy" their art if they liked it.

[sarahjc]

Interestingly enough, what you are all barking over here is two PC's that play "active bards" in one way or another, that are calling themselves bards and that aren't affiliated with a circle. To make this worse, these people are bards for a wealthy house (GASP!)

Now, what non of you know,-NONE-  is why these people aren't in a circle and wither you are wrong or right about it,  it is something to be handled IC.  Nothing irritates me more that people that come in here with an IC grip "anonymously" and bitch about current IC events.  If you don't like it, do something about it in game or write the Imm's. If you have already, then have patients. cause all you do here is flare tempers and cause confusion.

Now a few points to clean up.

In TULUK or anywhere else a bard is a bard.  NO-WHERE  in the documentation does it say  that a guy holding a fiddle can't call himself a bard. He just can't call himself a Poet's Circle bard.  

100%  wrong on that one Xamminy.

As for political upheaval, yes I think you have a point. Bards, especially bards from noble houses, should be a part of the Poets Circle.

And a statement could be made FROM EITHER SIDE by them not being there.  Moreover, if there was a problem with what was going in game with this sort of thing, I would think that the Immortals would focus on it and something would be done.  It might just even be a simple oversight or some other technicality.  Who knows.


Though I think this thread is helpful and is a good topic to discuss.  It's origins are faulty at best. I would have much rather this been a thread about what people think the responsibility of  "a poets circle bard" is in Tuluk and what can make the role desirable, rather than someone barking at us what "IS" the right way to play them, and why "ALL TULUK" should bow down, then spend the rest of the thread defending their  PC.

Also when giving such opinions, especially ones slighting the rp others, have a backbone and own up to your posts.

With that, I leave this thread to prevent myself from flaming it futher.

[sarahjc]

I think that an independent bard turning up at a bardic competition in Tuluk would be akin to some heroin addict street artist showing up at a major art opening at MOMA. People may recognize the talent and appreciate it, but they're not going to invite the junkie artist back to their 5th Avenue appartment for cocktail hour.

I disagree, though perhaps in the past that may have been the case, with recent competitions, many non-circle performers have attended from all over and due to that, the compititions are a lot more IC fun.

Tuluk is rooted in tradition, but how can new talent be found if it is never givin a chance to be seen?

I do think that some compition should be closed out and exclusive. But too much of that sort of thing just reaks of Southern Style. I always thought of Tuluk as a more open and accepting society. The Nobility walk amongst the people. Festivals, the gardens, even some bardic competitions are open for everyone, except for southerners that is. But that independ spirit is what makes Tuluk the bunny hugging place we all know and love. Why give "the arts" an allanaki feel by making it an exclusive club.

And besides, I can think of may heroine junkie superstars making their way back to 5th ave apartments. Courtney Love anyone??

[jhunter]

I do think that some compition should be closed out and exclusive. But too much of that sort of thing just reaks of Southern Style. I always thought of Tuluk as a more open and accepting society. The Nobility walk amongst the people. Festivals, the gardens, even some bardic competitions are open for everyone, except for southerners that is. But that independ spirit is what makes Tuluk the bunny hugging place we all know and love. Why give "the arts" an allanaki feel by making it an exclusive club.

Damned skippy.

[Bakha]

And besides, I can think of may heroine junkie superstars making their way back to 5th ave apartments. Courtney Love anyone??

See, there's the reason I don't like using analogies. Too easy to refute.

It's evident that this thread isn't really an abstract discussion so much as a commentary on things that are going on ingame right now. Seeing as I have no clue about those things, I'll bow out.

[Xamminy]

I'm not 100% wrong, sarahjc.  We're talking about Tuluk, and in Tuluk, those that live in the 5th Ave apartments (the Chosen, to use Bakha's analogy) would not deign the junky worthy of employment, even though they may appreciate the art, without the junky cleaning themselves up and making themselves presentable (i.e. joining the Poet's Circle).

Yes, the competitions are about the art themselves.  They are not about who is representing who.  If a Chosen was to hire a bard, this bard would be a representation of the Chosen.  If the Chosen hires a grubby non-Circle bard, they should be prepared to be regarded as outside of the normal and accepted practices and treated as such.  It doesn't matter WHY the Chosen has hired this person or WHY this person is not a member of the Circle, there will be rumors and whispers and other bards (mostly members of the Circle) helping to spread these rumors about how that particular Chosen is slumming it, so to speak, in their choice of bardic representation.

[Anonymous Artist]

ONCE AGAIN, THIS THREAD WAS BEGUN WITH THE INTENT TO GET A DISCUSSION GOING ABOUT THE FACT THAT TULUKIS IN GENERAL ARE NOT TREATING BARDS AND ART AS THEY SHOULD.  IT WAS NOT MEANT AS A FLAME OR A STAB AT ANY PARTICULAR PERSON.

Get over yourself, stop taking it personally, and treat the thread for what is is SUPPOSED to be.

[sarahjc]

I'm not 100% wrong, sarahjc.  We're talking about Tuluk, and in Tuluk, those that live in the 5th Ave apartments (the Chosen, to use Bakha's analogy) would not deign the junky worthy of employment, even though they may appreciate the art, without the junky cleaning themselves up and making themselves presentable (i.e. joining the Poet's Circle).

Yes, the competitions are about the art themselves.  They are not about who is representing who.  If a Chosen was to hire a bard, this bard would be a representation of the Chosen.  If the Chosen hires a grubby non-Circle bard, they should be prepared to be regarded as outside of the normal and accepted practices and treated as such.  It doesn't matter WHY the Chosen has hired this person or WHY this person is not a member of the Circle, there will be rumors and whispers and other bards (mostly members of the Circle) helping to spread these rumors about how that particular Chosen is slumming it, so to speak, in their choice of bardic representation.

Again, you say these people are grubs just because they are not bards of the circle??  Nonsense.  If they are acting like spice addicted bums, begging for change, singing horrible songs, then I could see your point, I also don't see a noble house hiring them. If a house decides someone is worthy and they actually have some talent, then I do not see the tecincality of that person not being in a circle yet a problem.

Should the circle bards be upset about it? Yes. Should they bitch and complain about it in game? Certainly. Should they see such behaivor as  a social slight? Of course. Would the common guy drinking a beer at the local tavern care, not very likely.

And you are 100% wrong on the fact that you said people outside the bardic circle aren't called/thought of as bards and should not call themselves such. If you can point me to the doc's that say that they can't be called bards, I'll relent on it. But don't state things as fact that are simply a matter of opinion.  Also please try to stay on the topic in a counterpoint.

I think it's A okay for a bard of the circle to have that opinion as well as snub and laugh at a non-circle bard calling themselves a bard. But that might be only a joke, or thought of as something funny to those in the circle.

Most people are just happy to hear a person sing a nice tune. And as for nobles. Perhaps they would pick up a non-circle bard in the hopes of bringing them into the circle, they could be the responsible party for finding the next great superstar of the city. Maybe they just got busy and haven't had the time to get a sponsorship for them. Maybe the Poet's circle bards should start a little in game drama about it.

My point in this is nothing is written in stone when it comes to who is and is not a bard, and what kind and from who and where. There are guidelines to follow yes and if everyone suck to those, well wouldn't life be boring.

If events in game go against the guidlines. Well, have fun and play that out.

[Seeker]

I think in Tuluk, the word "bard" has a whole host of meanings that it doesn't anywhere else in the Known World.

A bard in Tuluk is a not just a pan-handling singer or street-hustingling entertainer.  In Tuluk, that type of person would be called....er... a panhandling singer or street-hustling entertainer.  

A superior storyteller or an exquite dancer might easily receive reknown for their craft, and admiration for their abilities, but they would probably not ever be called bards by people in the know.  Bards are something different.  

A bard, there, is an embodiment of a particular brand of Tuluki art and culture.  I really think that to take the title of "bard" in Tuluk, you pretty much have to have that official stamp of approval .  You have to be linked into the heritage that is the Poet's Circle.  Otherwise, you are a talented pretender at best.

I don't see anything wrong with any House hiring a promising artisan. That type of patronage is great for the game and reflects positively back upon the sponsoring House, but to call that artisan or perfomer a "bard" in Tuluk is probably wrong.  Might possibly even be a slap in the face to pride that the Gol has for its flaky history and culture.

But that is just one player's opinion, and is not backed up by any documents or IMM-support as far as I know.


Seeker

(colored text inserted after reading sarahjc's post)

[Xamminy]

Yes, sarahjc, the Poet's Circle should be upset.  They probably are.  They are mostly all VNPC's, though, and those that aren't hiring Circle bards or pushing those 'bards' they hire to be Circle bards aren't taking into account the VNPCs it seems.

Also, please stop telling me that I'm 100% wrong.  I never said that people that aren't part of the Poet's Circle can't be called bards...I said they couldn't be called Bards.  Notice that one is capitalized and the others isn't...one is a profession and the other a title.

I NEVER said that a Chosen couldn't hire someone that wasn't a member of the Circle, but they shouldn't be letting this person represent them as a Bard without having joined the Circle.  Maybe the Chosen got busy, sure, but an email to the appropriate IMMs doesn't take that much time, really.

Normally, I'd agree that if things go against the guidelines, that people should RP that those going against the guidelines are stupid or whatnot, but when noone's acting this way, the playerbase needs to be woken up with a discussion like this.

...and perhaps some people should calm down and discuss, taking into account what is being said by both parties and not take anything personal, hmm?

[Random Person]

Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with noble houses hiring non-circle bards. As for why they call themselves bards... That's an entirely IC reason isn't it?

My character calls herself a bard, and she isn't in the Circle. But that's because she can't wait to be accepted/auditioned/whatevered into the Circle (she's a very excitable person). There's an IC reason for you.

[Maybe42or54]

I take it back to the Salarr and the lonely man.

You go to salarr if you want something that will last for more than a few fights.
You go to the lonely man because you just want something cheap that you can use for a fight or two.

[Yang]

I have played several reputable bards, in old poet's circle, after old poets cirlce, before new poets circle, and during new poets circle. I was involved in writing a portion of the docs, mostly drafts.

In the final version of Poets Circle History, Customs and Traditions docs, which has not been changed to my best knowledge, it notes that Poet's Circle does not acknowledge nor really pay much attention to non-circle bards who wish to stay independent. They are beneath consideration. "Who cares??" in other words, seems to be the true bardic consensus. It is not an issue, at all.

As part of the draft that did not make it  final, something -was- mentioned about them being marginalized or made to disappear with much more frequency than Poets Circle members, but again, this is nowhere in the documentation.

Theoretically speaking, the only class of society I can really see having much of a problem with an indie-"bard" (which I like to call, musicians, minstrels or wordsmiths, rather than bards) are the Lirathan templarate, for their own inciduous reasons that I won't get into here. Use your imaginations.

This is my extremely educated, but still mortal, opinion on the matter.

END OF DISCUSSION ;)

[Linedel]

Tangent time!

Back in the day, I played one of the earliest "bard" PCs.

When I reappeared on the board last year, I got a couple of notes.. "Are you THE Linedel?  I remember him, he was a kickass bard!"  These amused me.. 'cause back in the day, I thought I was pretty cool... it was the first character I actually roleplayed with (besides the spice addict rastafarian).

Linedel's entire catalogue consisted of about 3 songs.  Free verse.  No rhyme, no meter.  100% (poorly written) story.  (And back then, there was no "say (with a whatever whatever) blah blah", so it was quite dry.)

Not even remotely a master bard of any sort.

I didn't think out the "bard" part... I had just read the Pern books, and thought.. wow, Masterharper Robinton was a badass.  Coincidentally, he rarely, if ever, performed in those books... he was primarily a political figure.  And that's the direction Linedel was supposed to go.

There was no Poet's Circle at the time.  (The rooms existed - but there was no formal organization, and no significant history that I was aware of.)  There was no model, I just did whatever... and when I realized doing bard-ish stuff was hard, he had an accident... got his neck slashed by some raiders (actually happened), and I had a good IC reason to stay primarily prose.

Somehow, a few people took the minor prose story that I did after that point as amazing bardlike talent... I honestly have no idea why.

The point of this is that there are different requirements in different times, and that playing things in various ways can achieve meaningful results.

My most recent character (the only one I've played since reappearing) was started as a blank slate.  He had no clue what he wanted to do... heard about bards (By the way, I disagree that all Tulukis would know any given performer.  Remember, Zalanthas is harsh.  There is no 40 hour workweek and TV.), and thought it would be an interesting way to make a living.  I wrote a couple of really cheese folk-ish songs, tweaked some children's rhymes... and had a damn good time with some "lower class" people in-game just roleplaying a completely inept wanna-be musician.  This was quite fun, I would definately suggest that anyone that wants to play an "eventual" bard start out at the absolute bottom, skill-wise.


Now, on to the current professionals.  My current character observed a competition or two.  I was blown away.  The quality of pre-prepared performance that I saw was amazing.  It owned.  It made me realize I didn't have the time to play a bard to that level of quality.

Some important things to observe about those performances.  They were definately pre-prepared.  They were polished.  They were edited, probably several times.  I didn't analyze logs later, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had no duplicates of "major" descriptive words.  It takes time to produce that level of performance.  A lot of time.

Let's say the professionals did random performances fairly frequently..  Their average level of performance would be below the quality that they exhibit with the prepared scripts.  Then you get people thinking OOC that X person is a poor bard.  This OOC tendency of observers, because the performer's random emotes aren't as crisp as the ones they spent 2 weeks on, would eventually find its way IC for some.  The bard now has to deal with people bitching about their inconsistant quality.

"Real world" performers are just as bad off the cuff.  (Most, I should say.  Some shine.)  That's why they practice pieces for months before doing recording or going on tour.  Sting never shows up at a club in New York and performs unless it was planned.  Neither would X major bard in-game.  On the other hand, amateur performers do open-mic nights every day.  These are who you'd see in bars.


I encourage anyone who wishes to have their character dabble in "bardish" things to do so.  All whining about professionalism that shouldn't be there or whatever other whines aside, ANY bard-like act, suggesting that you're giving thought to stories, history, etc., should be welcome.  And while it might be best to save inspirations for a more appropriate character, if it has to be released, it has to be released, and any "bard-like" action adds to the game - not subtracts.

Armageddon, like all role-playing games, is not so much a game as an environment for community storytelling.  If your character has got a story, find an IC way to tell it.

My opinions may not agree with those of staff.


(As a lurker, I haven't played for 4-5 months... but this thread debating bards almost makes me want to log in... as much as the threads whining about code preventing people's powerlevel scheme of the week make me not want to...)