Where have all the REAL bards gone?

[Anonymous Artist]

I know this has been discussed before, but nothing seems to have been done about it.  PCs in Tuluk don't seem to fully understand the value of the arts, and the true importance of the Circle.  I have seen quite a few PCs who call themselves bards recently, however, very few of them have been a part of the Circle, nor have they tried to become a part of the Circle.  Anyone who thinks of himself as a bard should be clamoring and trying his damndest to get into the Circle.  Why?

:arrow: Access to the finest, most talented and revered artists and teachers in the entire city.  Anyone who is serious about being an artist would know that joining the Circle means that they will be taught and instructed by the best artists in the world.  By joining the Circle, you will automatically rise in status and be known as a respected artist, because you will be learning from the Masters.

:arrow: Because bards of the Circle are held in much higher esteem and taken much more seriously than people who don't join the Circle.  Unfortunately, a great deal of PCs do not roleplay it this way.  Bards of the Circle should be taken much more seriously, because joining the Circle shows that they are dedicated to their art, not just some Joe Schmoe who is dabbling in music because he picked up an instrument somewhere along the line.  Bards of the Circle study all different forms of art, and they are incredibly versatile.  People seem to think these days that just because someone can play an instrument, that they are bards.  This is not necessarily the truth.

:arrow: Bards of the Circle are famous.  They are the equivalent to Earth's famous movie stars and musicians.  They are Tuluk's Angelina Jolies, Anthony Hopkinses, Tori Amoses, Peter Gabriels, etc.  Anyone who is a serious artist, should aspire to reach that kind of status.  Citizens of Tuluk, especially the upper classes (merchants, nobility, templars) should choose them and their services before someone who is not a part of the Circle.

:arrow: A particular noble House of Tuluk is supposed to be known for being the city's largest patron of the arts.  They should require all of the bards they take into their employ or patronage to either be or become part of the Circle.  If a particular 'bard' does not try to join the Circle, or is turned down, they should seriously consider releasing that person from their service as a bard.  They used to have quite a few PC Circle bards in their employ, but lately they have had none.  In my opinion, they should be working much harder to get Circle bards and to get their bards into the Circle because of the training and the prestige.  They deserve nothing but the best, and they should get it.

:arrow: Non Circle 'bards' that talk about taking on apprentices should be found laughable by most people in the city.  It is common knowledge (or it should be) that only Master Bards take apprentices.  Why would someone whose talent has not been officially recognized by the Circle and therefore the city be respected as a teacher of the arts?  What has that person done to earn that respect except for run his or her mouth, claiming that he or she is worthy?  Join the Circle and prove your worth.

:arrow: Circle bards have a great deal of influence in quite a few aspects of Tuluki life.  They should, but again, people sadly are not roleplaying it out this way.  The song or spoken word of a bard can ruin someone's reputation, or it can boost it upward.  It is common knowledge that bards are extremely observant folks, and their opinions should be trusted because of this.  Almost as much as the nobility, they should be setting fashion trends in the city.  These are but a few examples.  When a bard speaks or acts, people should pay attention.

It is disappointing that a city that holds art in such high regard is becoming more and more apathetic toward the Poets' Circle, the highest bastion of art and entertainment in Tuluk.  I don't know whether it's because of a lack of information about this in the public documentation, or people simply disregarding what is there.  I truly think that something needs to change.

[Anonymous Artist]

And another thing:  Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles.  Why is this?  If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

[Agent_137]

I agree. This post gets a star.

[Praetorian]

I think part of the problem might be that some players like to dabble in music, and because of the quality of their general gameplay, they are able to -really- bring out a high level of quality to their musical emotes and storytelling.  Other players, might seriously want to be viewed as a 'professional' bard but compared to other more seasoned players they are not able to pass it off with quite the same flourish and entertainment factor.
Players that would hire such, want to be entertained - both ICly and OOCly.  If one player that isn't a circle bard has a history of always providing that entertainment versus the not-quite-so-stellar performances of another, then the odds are the first reaction of the wealthy is going to be to hire the more amusing part-time bard.
This problem has several anges to it:
1) First, non-bard players that perform flawless musical masterpieces emote-wise, need to take a step back and ask themselves if they are really that good, or if they are portraying themselves that good.  A few imperfections or mistakes to demonstrate that you are in truth better accustomed to shooting carru through their ballsacks instead of singing ballads might be appropriate.
2) Circle bards need to constantly be attempting to improve how they do things, both in their ability to bring a situation to life through colorful emotes and also through watching others to take similar performances to a higher level entertainment-wise.
3) Those that hire non-circle (non-professional) bards should pronounce that fact in their discussions of those individuals.  Even a casual comment like 'hes good, but hes definately not of the Circle' at least stresses that fact in the mind of viewers, and might remind them in the flow of the entertainment that what they are watching technically isn't the best the city has to offer.  That sort of pressure will at least make individual pcs realize that unless they are a professional bard (circle) then they aren't ever likely to be viewed as a truely great practictioner of those crafts.  Offer a price for services, then ask if they are of the Circle...if they say no, drop your offer.  It proves a point to them, and to those observing the dealings.
4) (more for imms - might already be in place)  Set up the 'Circle' as a series of rankings, higher rank in the Circle demonstrates ability to entertain others beyond the simple proclamation of it being their profession.  It gives the hiring individual a comperative framework to determine who to hire for their event.  Those of the lower rankings should practically be required to watch performances of those of higher ranking, to learn, in hopes of improving themselves to rise in rank.  A low circle rank bard simply might not be worth much - would be like an unknown actor starring in their first movie...prove themselves, and they become a phenomenon (rise in rank).

[Anonymous Artist]

One question (since I can't edit my posts anonymously) and I hope the IMMs can provide their input.  Isn't the Poets' Circle officially sanctioned and recognized by the templarate?

[da mitey warrior]

I'm surprised more PC bards don't start off in the circle.  I've never been a bard but from what I know it's a very sweet set up.  You get your own appartment, extra bard skills, custom made items plus all sorts of IC benifits in game, without hardly any restrictions on your character.  Why make just a bland vanilla bard?

[Spoon]

I don't like some of the ideas in this post. It's a bit "You shall play your character like this:"

Yes, I do agree that the arts should play as big a role as possible in Tuluk, and I agree with all that fame and influence thing that comes with being a member of a circle, and so see why -some- PC's would be striving for this from day one.

However, there are a great deal of individuals out there with their own reasons for, and methods of being, a bard.

Zalanthas must be absolutely stuffed with bards, and I don't like the idea of canning them all in the same place with the same aspirations.

[My 2 sids]

I think Praetorian gave some excellent answers.  
1.  Because bards are 100% role-play based (I've discussed problems with this in my code posts) I think Praet is right that many players (who aren't artistically inclined or have infinite time) don't feel they can handle creating a bard PLUS the entertainment that goes with the character.  

2.  Circle bards would have too much competition, because there are only so many PC bards.  Circle bards have to compete with house bards (I've posted problems with over lapping houses before in the Clan section), Circle bards have to compete with un-clanned bards, and Circle bards have to compete with basically any PC who decides they can emote.  

3.  Finally, after trying many scenarios, I'm convened the game just doesn't support anyone but backstabbing, politically-biased, spy-like characters.  A character who is only there to provide entertainment will not last long or get involved in many plots.  On the other hand, because too many players don't understand how to utilize propaganda (hence Fale flopped) they simply don't use propaganda-savy bards.

[Xamminy]

The problem here is that Tuluk is a city of the arts.  All of the nobles and templars support the arts...and, as has been said many times, the commoners try to emulate the nobles.  Why would a commoner not aspire to be a bard of the Poet's Circle?  Well, there are reasons, but these people would be the exception...not quite as bad as a kank-riding elf, but approaching it.

Part of the problem is that people in Tuluk that are hiring bards don't seem to remember that non-Circle bards would be looked down upon as not as good.  If they were good, wouldn't they be in the 'good bards club' known as the Poet's Circle?

Seriously, I think the same as da mitey warrior...all these people that want to play bards, why not send an email to appropriate people to play one from the Circle?  It's not like you're asking to play a sorcerer noble or something equally ridiculous and high-maintenance.  You just want to play a bard with some caste tattoos that say you're good enough to play for the people with real money.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'll go a step further.  Northern nobles, if you're looking to hire a bard and they aren't in a Circle, PUSH THEM TO JOIN ONE.  Why in the world would you want a sub-par bard?  And frankly, indie bards in Tuluk are just that.  Remember, the bards you hire are a reflection of your status as a noble; the more prestigious the bards you hire, obviously the better a patron of the arts you are.

I'm in complete agreement with those who are concerned about the influx of non-Circle bards in Tuluk.  It's not breaking any rules, but it does bend the atmosphere in the northlands pretty hard.

[Tamarin]

What I want to know is why Cuusardo started this thread anonymously...

[Agent_137]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128408#128408

[jhunter]

And another thing: Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles. Why is this? If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

Because maybe you want to play the bard who isn't already the best? Maybe your pc doesn't consider themselves good enough to be considered? Saying that everyone should be part of the Circle or have to work for it is like saying that noone should play independants, beggars, peddlers...etc...

The real problem is the other players not playing accordingly, not the ones who are playing the noncircle performers.

[Anonymous Artist]

The point of this thread is that Circle bards are THE best.  Everyone who is anyone in Tuluk should know this, and act accordingly.  Those of high society that can afford the best should only be hiring the best, not some two-bit dabblers that picked up a flute or a mandolin somewhere in their lives and learned to play on their own without any training.  (What the hell do they know about high society and etiquette, or how to catch and keep a crowd's attention if they weren't trained properly?)  That is just the way Tuluki society is.  Bardic competitions and large performances should draw crowds like arena games in Allanak, because that is the city's preferred form of entertainment.

SLIGHT DERAIL: To touch on My 2 Sids' post, roleplay guidelines are in place for a reason.  Without them, everyone would just go off and do what they want and it would be anarchy.  Rules that define societies and the people within of are extreme importance in a roleplay mud.

[Anonymous Artist]

And another thing: Very few people make PCs who are born into one of the Circles. Why is this? If you want to play a bard PC, why not go all out and begin as a part of the Circle?

Because maybe you want to play the bard who isn't already the best? Maybe your pc doesn't consider themselves good enough to be considered? Saying that everyone should be part of the Circle or have to work for it is like saying that noone should play independants, beggars, peddlers...etc...

The real problem is the other players not playing accordingly, not the ones who are playing the noncircle performers.

That is not what people are doing, however.  I have seen a lot of PC bards who don't join the Circle that roleplay themselves as being artists of astounding talent.  If you want to roleplay a real bard, a good bard that people respect and love, either join the Circle, or start your PC out in the Circle.  I mean seriously, if you feel you are that good, why would you not be a part of what someone called "the good bards club"?

[jhunter]

Those of high society that can afford the best should only be hiring the best, not some two-bit dabblers that picked up a flute or a mandolin somewhere in their lives and learned to play on their own without any training. (What the hell do they know about high society and etiquette, or how to catch and keep a crowd's attention if they weren't trained properly?) That is just the way Tuluki society is. Bardic competitions and large performances should draw crowds like arena games in Allanak, because that is the city's preferred form of entertainment.

Sorry but I disagree.
With the arts being so appreciated no Tuluki would ignore the fact that someone might have natural talent, the fact that they are not part of the Circle is a mere technicality.
I do think that those who recognize it would work to get them in the Circle though if they are good enough to be paying for their services.

I seriously doubt that a Tuluki noble would turn down hiring a performer that's showing real talent just because they aren't a part of the Circle. More likely and realistically I'd think, they'd hire them because they -like- what they do and would work to get them in the Circle where -they- believe they belong.

[jhunter]

If you want to roleplay a real bard, a good bard that people respect and love, either join the Circle, or start your PC out in the Circle. I mean seriously, if you feel you are that good, why would you not be a part of what someone called "the good bards club"?

Maybe you want to play the undiscovered talent, the one who hopes to make it into the Circle one day? Maybe you want to play through the experience of "making it" instead of starting out "already there"?


Edited to add: It's the journey that makes it all the more fun, not the end of the road IMO.

[My 2 sids]

Zalanthas must be absolutely stuffed with bards, and I don't like the idea of canning them all in the same place with the same aspirations.

Zalanthas may be stuffed with bards, but there are only X number of PC bards.  As discussed in other threads clans are a way to bring PCs together who share a common goal.  The majority of PCs (in order to accurately reflect social norms) should want and strive to be in the Bard Circles (bard clans)  if they wish to play a full-time bard.

[Spoon]

Right on jhunter.

After reading everyones posts, I do see why most Tuluki bard's would have great interest in joining the circle.

But your missing a pretty hoooj oppourtunity for roleplaying the rise of a talented bard if you start in a circle. Certain characters, ie. ones born into a circle, are an obvious exception to this, as the fact they are already in a circle is a really important part of their background.

[sarahjc]

Another interesting point that I personally think is important is that bards from the poet's circle promote the circle.  One major thing is performing.  I know of in game a few bards from the poets circle, and I have seen 0 performing outside of competition. Most just sit and warm tavern benches. For those who are being seen as "superstars" of the known world, I rarely see them as anything more than local gossips.  For some reason it is the indy bards that do all the singing and dancing about.

I never see bards telling stories or offering performances. Creating songs to impress nobles or putting on shows. As much as the Job of poets circle bard demands prestige, it is not something that is given easily.  I don't see why a noble should give more favor to a bard that sits around all day and never asks me if I would like to be entertained, than to one that does. Just because they are a circled bard? So what?

That's like saying, you would pay more attention to Mickey Roark or alix Baldwin, than a fresh face that just got a major role in a film, Just cause they are part of the screen actors guild, doesn't mean they aren't all washed up. It just doesn't make sense. To me show business is all about staying on top and being the best and that should be a constant struggle.  

And this is not to single anyone out at all, people may perform often and I may not see it or may be doing other things. Some people may not feel that performance is important. But to me, it is and it's the thing I see the least of.  I would say that if you want more people to aspire to the role of "Bardic Circle Bard" than make a role to be aspired to.

When I wanted my next role to be a poets circle bard, it was because there was an amazing bard playing at the time. She told stories, held performances, was the ever-fresh face about town. She was a renaissance woman. This to me is what a bard should always be.  She was involved with the circle as well as her house, it was truly a role that others would easily wish to aspire to.

[LBO]

Maybe you want to play the undiscovered talent, the one who hopes to make it into the Circle one day? Maybe you want to play through the experience of "making it" instead of starting out "already there"?


Edited to add: It's the journey that makes it all the more fun, not the end of the road IMO.

I'd agree with that concept and there is nothing wrong starting out as an aspiring Circle member. Just, players should accept the responsibility that while their character may be talented that is not the same as having astounding ability. To become recognised as a master of your area of music takes teaching from a master. If you want to be seen as a bard of astounding ability then the Circle is your only option really as any bard of note will be a member there and its the only place you'll find the level of expertise high enough to teach you to be that good. If you want to be seen as a pretty decent musician or you want to play the bard who tries but just isn't good enough then not being part of the Circle is fine in my opinion.

[Xamminy]

Sorry but I disagree.
With the arts being so appreciated no Tuluki would ignore the fact that someone might have natural talent, the fact that they are not part of the Circle is a mere technicality.
I do think that those who recognize it would work to get them in the Circle though if they are good enough to be paying for their services.

I seriously doubt that a Tuluki noble would turn down hiring a performer that's showing real talent just because they aren't a part of the Circle. More likely and realistically I'd think, they'd hire them because they -like- what they do and would work to get them in the Circle where -they- believe they belong.

Sure, they wouldn't ignore the fact, but if a High Society person wants someone as their bard, they should hire the person and then get them a member of the Poet's Circle.  As JGG said, your employees reflect on you.  If you are not patronizing the Poet's Circle, you have MORE bards that will not appreciate you and have some socio-political sway.  A particular noble house has a rule of only hiring Poet's Circle bards or those that will be enrolled before they can claim to be a bard for the House.  [Edited]...it is something that, in my opinion, should be enforced.  Do you hire some bum off the street when you are throwing a 5-star banquet with all the celebrities and political figures within any distance that can make it...or do you hire a professional that has references of some sort that would let you know how well the job of performing would be done?  Now, pretend you're hiring a PR agent, which bards also are...do you hire the bum off the street or someone trained by the best for the last ten years?

I disagree with the thought that the hirers are the only problem.  They are the larger portion to this problem..but the hirees are also not seeming to want to join the Circle.  Whether the bard thinks they are worthy of being a member or not, it should be something any Tuluki performer would aspire to...that kind of recognition and backing behind their skills.

[Larrath]

It is possible for some rare commoner to turn out to be a bardic superstar whose parents were eaten alive by a couple of Circle Bards somewhere.
Sure.
That commoner would pretty much never be hired no matter HOW good he was, not [only] because they would be looked down at, but also because their patrons would be looked down at for not taking a Circle bard.

It's kinda like having a kickass warrior elf who's one of the best indie bodyguards on Zalanthas.  People are still probably not going to hire you, especially if they have to do it openly and have to worry about their reputations.

Nobles that hire non-Circle bards should be expected to put these bards in a Circle for fear of being looked at as a stupid goof that has no true appreciation for the arts and is trying to use some cheap, shoddy commoner to hide that fact.

[Anonymous Artist]

sarahjc, just because you have not seen Circle bards perform outside of a competition does not mean that they never do.  Your perspective is limited, because you are not always where the bards are.  I have seen Circle bards do plenty of public performances all over the city (as well as other places beyond Tuluk, like Luir's Outpost), some by request of others, some spur of the moment by their own volition.  You just happen to be missing them.

It could be that your or someone else's character has offended some bards of the Circle, and they do not wish to perform in front of those people.  It could be that your playtimes do not coincide with when people do these things, or that you are not present in the venue they perform in.  Circle bards do not become famous for sitting around doing nothing.  They rise in rank and fame because they DO things.

It could also be the general apathy of players toward the arts that makes people not wish to perform.  There have been times when bards have performed when no one paid attention, or they haven't gotten tipped (which is customary for those who can afford it, especially nobility and templars), or they've been asked by people to play and the person who requested the performance did not bother to pay them for their time and effort.[/u]

[My 2 sids]

It could also be the general apathy of players toward the arts that makes people not wish to perform. There have been times when bards have performed when no one paid attention, or they haven't gotten tipped (which is customary for those who can afford it, especially nobility and templars), or they've been asked by people to play and the person who requested the performance did not bother to pay them for their time and effort

A good point.  As long as the players aren't willing to recognize certain types of characters or clans... there won't be any change.