Things Your Character Would Know to Assume...

[Naiona]

A recent string of IC posts in the various taverns seem to make some basic assumptions about how people in the two citystates view the various militias.  Unfortunately, these assumptions are the polar opposite of how most if not nearly all commoners would see -any- authority figure in either city.  

So, without further ado, here are a few basic things to remember:

1) Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

2) Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well.  -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

3) No one in their right mind in either city state would openly complain about any type of corruption in the militia or templarate.  In Tuluk, those who do simply vanish without a trace.  In Allanak, those who do are generally publicly tortured.  EVERYONE knows this.

4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I hope this might help a little to capture the basic mindset of the public when it comes to dealing with militia and the templarate.  Modern concepts of fair trials and justice are simply nonexistent in Zalanthas. If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful.  It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

[Agent_137]

I'm assuming we can take this as an official statement from the staff, and that it is as holy as something found in the docs.

Perhaps it could be placed in the docs somewhere.

[JollyGreenGiant]

If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful. It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

That just bears repeating because it so neatly sums up the way things work.

[mansa]

1) Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Translation?  There is no justice for the weak.  You got murdered.  People are bastards.  They hate you because you are a challenge to them and their power they have.  It is a Dog eat Dog world.

2) Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well.  -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

Examples?  I have paid this soldier there to kick the chair and take you to jail.  Can you pay him more to stop?  Soldiers are currupt and soldiers are in charge, because their power is a mob power.  Soldiers are another form of the mob.

3) No one in their right mind in either city state would openly complain about any type of corruption in the militia or templarate.  In Tuluk, those who do simply vanish without a trace.  In Allanak, those who do are generally publicly tortured.  EVERYONE knows this.

Remember folks.  This isn't earth.  This isn't north america.  This isn't the united states of america.  Our thoughts and wishes that are -the core of our being- as human beings are vastly different than those in Zalanthas.  It is about role-play, and getting outside of our box, outside our bubble, and outside of our dreams in North American Culture.

4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

Yup.

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I feel that the greatest mistake that players make, is that they have no real sense of 'fear' for their character.  They all seem to have a 'backbone' and are willing to spit in a templar's eye while the templar is prying off the skin of their fingers.
I view that when a templar asks you (and the you being a commoner in the city states) to go to a 'special' place, you're probably going to shit your pants because you're so scared.  Your character's heart will be racing, and you will be afraid.
The few exceptions to this, I believe, would be some of the nobility, some of the merchant house blood, and that's about it.  Oh yes.  Gypsies are immune to this, too.   This might be different to everybody else.

I hope this might help a little to capture the basic mindset of the public when it comes to dealing with militia and the templarate.  Modern concepts of fair trials and justice are simply nonexistent in Zalanthas. If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful.  It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

True say.  True say.

[wizturbo]

Please archive this thread.  Its a SHINING example for new and old players alike, fuck it, make it a help document.  People DO NOT understand the core concepts said in this post for the most part, and the game would benefit greatly if they did.

[Tamarin]

agreed.

[mansa]

i disagree with the archiving.  You can add more to the discussion now.  And who bothers to read the archives?

[Quo]

Thanks - I found this very helpful. Can it go into the "What You Know" section, or at least get archived, please?

Quo

[Quo]

And who bothers to read the archives?

I do, regularly, and I'm sure others do as well. They're free of insults, and full of insights.

[wizturbo]

i disagree with the archiving.  You can add more to the discussion now.  And who bothers to read the archives?

I really can't think anything more to add except commentary, which is just agreeing with the post.  I personally read the archives, but I recommended making it a helpfile so those who don't might catch a glimpse.

[Spud]

I really feel like this post was solely aimed at me. I have broken just about all of those at a point in time. :oops:

[wizturbo]

I really feel like this post was solely aimed at me. I have broken just about all of those at a point in time.

Yes, it probably was Spud.  But salvation can be yours if you put your faith in our Glorious leader, AC.

[Savak]

Please stay on topic or keep it to the OOC forum/new thread as appropriate.  Otherwise we'll lock this.

That said, I think it's a great as well as simple list, and is likely to end up in new and wonderful places in the future.

-Savak

[jmordetsky]

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I feel that the greatest mistake that players make, is that they have no real sense of 'fear' for their character.  They all seem to have a 'backbone' and are willing to spit in a templar's eye while the templar is prying off the skin of their fingers.
I view that when a templar asks you (and the you being a commoner in the city states) to go to a 'special' place, you're probably going to shit your pants because you're so scared.  Your character's heart will be racing, and you will be afraid.
The few exceptions to this, I believe, would be some of the nobility, some of the merchant house blood, and that's about it.  Oh yes.  Gypsies are immune to this, too.   This might be different to everybody else.

I've seen a good deal of this, as well mostly from n00bs. I think it can only really be corrected by the PC templars making more use of the HG and whip code. This usually and realistically curbs it a bit. When that fails, PCs who chose this route need to know that this is Allanak and you *will* die for said offenses. While, harsh...sometimes theonly way this can be taught is through example. My advice is that PC templar's be instructed to be fearless in setting those examples where cases are blatant.

[Kill4Free]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance :)

You're dying because you don't bribe them and show respect.  For God's sake, learn from your deaths or they will simply happen again.

[Larrath]

Think about this realistically.
Let's say that you live in a nasty dictatorship and some guy from the secret police took you to the station for a chat.

He -can- kill you, but maybe he won't.  Maybe he'll let you off with a fine or a warning or just a beating, or maybe he just wants you to snitch on someone.  Besides, if you piss him off too much, there's nothing stopping him from going after your family and friends and their dogs.


Don't think about it in a "If I'm losing a PC, I wanna go out with a bang" manner.  Sure, you get to do some stuff that looks fun...but if you really want to go with a bang, go with the fear and play -that-.  No matter how good at roleplaying you are, in 99% of all cases, you'll end up having a lot more fun playing with the fear and begging for your life instead of spitting in their eyes, and they will also have a better time.

Here's another thing to keep in mind: when the Titanic sunk, what do you think happened?

1) People stopped at nothing to get to the lifeboats for that longshot of a chance at staying alive.
Or:
2) People sat on couches and said all the stuff they kept in while waiting for their deaths.

So there.  Acting cool is neat, but trying to put on a cool face while soiling your sandcloth is neater.

[Rindan]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance

I find that to be completely untrue.  The probably is that people are generally too stupid to talk themselves out of such problems.  There is a time to fight, and there is a time to play realistically, swallow your pride, and do the things it takes to get away with your life.  I had a very bad character who lived a life that bordered on being a raider.  He got hauled into jail four times.  Three of those times he was accused of treason, the other time he was being used as a bargaining chip between two very large powers (one of which wanted him dead – preferable after a lengthy torture).  He got out of all four instances with his life.

Getting out with your life is generally easy, it just might take a little sacrifice.

1)  Be respectful.  This will save your ass 80% of the time, especially if you have done nothing all that wrong.  It might not save you from a beating or a fine, but for the most part it will save you from death.  I can't count how many times I have seen people die just because they couldn't swallow their pride.  Bow, call the templar Lord Templar, don't argue your innocents, and just answer the templars questions.  Accept whatever the templar says, even if it is your guilt.  You might pay a price, but if the offense is minor, you will keep your life.

2)  Bribe them.  If the offense is minor, this will likely get you out of jail without any pain.  Tell the templar you are terribly sorry that you wasted his time having to deal with you and offer to compensate him for his troubles.  The templar won't get pissed off that you offered a bribe.  If you are in over your head, he might not accept the bribe, but believe me, a bribe –never- hurts.  At worst, it just won't help.  As an elf, when I was caught I would generally make up an lame excuse as to why that person to get stolen from (northerner, elf, 'rinther, criminal, exc) and offer the templar a bribe as a way to repay him for wasting his time on me.

3)  Be useful.  This is the big one.  This is the one that lets you escape a templar even when you deserve to die and you did more then just a minor offense.  A person who can be useful to a templar is a person who is going to live a much longer life.  If there is some special skill, knowledge, or connection your character has, use it to get your ass out of prison.  Don't blow your load too early.  You don't want to wear out your usefulness before you get out of prison.  Just find a good reason why you can be useful to the templar.  It might be a more long term bribe, information, connections, theft, murder, whatever.  Just offer something of value.  Unless you REALLY pissed off the templar in question, you can probably get out if you have something of use to offer.

4)  Lie.  This goes along with number three.  Some times you are exactly as useless as you seem to be, you don't have the 'sid to bribe your way out of death, and all the respect in the world isn't going to help you.  In this case, lie.  Tell the templar you are useful in some way you are not.  Convince him he has more to gain by letting you go then by killing you.

Things not to do that will get you killed every time include:
1) Pleading innocents.  If the templar asks for your story, give it to them.  Maybe he will be nice and let you go.  Otherwise though, if a templar says you are guilty, YOU ARE GUILTY.  Don't bother to argue.  If he has declared your guilt, go back to the four steps to get out of jail and start using them.  Don't waste your time arguing your innocents.  The templar just doesn't care.

2)  Threatening the templar.  If you do this, you are an idiot and will die.

3)  Show disrespect.  Any sign of disrespect is a good way to die quickly.  Bow deeply, call the templar Lord Templar, and don't puff out your chest.  Look small and only speak when spoken too.

Surviving a Templar encounter is generally easy.  The problem is that people can't turn off their American ideals of justice and pride for a few seconds, and this is generally fatal.

[Kill4Free]

First of all, I didnt personally lose any character to templar, I was saved because I helped people of their house in the past.  But lots of chars that arent very old, wont have anything they could bribe a templar with, and a useless bribe would be more of an insult than anything.
My chars would probably try to help the templar until they realise they have no chance of living, then instead of betraying one of their friends, or city, they would die without giving anything out.

[Sanvean]

I've aded this into the whatyouknow docs at http://www.armageddon.org/intro/authority.html

[Briber]

First of all, I didnt personally lose any character to templar, I was saved because I helped people of their house in the past.  But lots of chars that arent very old, wont have anything they could bribe a templar with, and a useless bribe would be more of an insult than anything.

Right here is where the belief is wrong.

Bribes are expected in accordance to the social caste of the briber (a commoner is not expected to bribe in the hundreds of coin) and the level of the offense (for example, a theft is not particularly important).  

One should always listen to any templar they are dealing with and look for the bribe hints - many templars will toss these out.  

Further that, there is no shame or a bad attempt to bribe.  There is no such thing as a "useless" bribe.  If a bribe is not high enough you will be informed so.  If you cannot match the expectation then services are always welcome.

A bribe from a noble should be worth thousands.  And yes, it is my belief that nobles should be bribing templars all the time to curry good will.  

A bribe from a common thief who got picked up for trying to steal from another commoner could be anything from 25 coins to 100 coins.  That's really plenty.

Now, if the thief tried to steal from a merchant, you are looking at a little more than 100 coins... it is all a matter of scale.

If the thief is obviously rich (wearing silks or all sorts of cool items) then the bribe should be larger.  Once again, it scales up.

Templars are always happy to receive gifts.  Sometimes gifts are all that will save a character in the future.  

I'm always amazed at the reluctance on the part of the playerbase to 1) openly bribe templars or even militia and 2) to even make the attempt.

In the end, the basic precept remains:  The police force is corrupt and it is open corruption.  The justice of either city's templarate is often brutal and harsh - but it can usually be circumvented by aptly placed coin or service.  Of course, if you cannot pay... well... there's always the next character.

[Kill4Free]

Ah, alright, I just sorta assumed the Templar were sorta like the shopkeepers, you give them a ridiculous price, and they will get angry and throw you out of the store.

And I never thought a Templar might accept a bribe that is so low, as usually they deal in thousands of sid, not dozens.

[Synthesis]

You know, I hear a lot about avoiding Templars and everything, but I'd just like to remind people that militia PCs are right up there with them.

Granted, militia PCs have a few more restrictions on them, but they have a -direct- line to the Templarate, and if you're Joe Nobody, a Templar is never going to side with you against one of his men.  Nine times out of ten, a death in the prison begins with someone talking shit to a member of the militia, thereby arousing the attention of the entire militia playerbase.

So, to sum it up pithily: don't go around poking your fingers into hornets' nests without expecting to get stung.

[Anonymous]

Look at it this way:
If templar gains nothing from killing you, why refuse the couple coins he can get from releasing you? And if you're a pickpocket or something, he needs you to keep stealing, because obviously if there'll be no pickpockets left in the city, what will he do then?

[Boggis]

My chars would probably try to help the templar until they realise they have no chance of living, then instead of betraying one of their friends, or city, they would die without giving anything out.

I always feel like questioning that kind of character. The Hollywood action hero who steadfastly refuses to give up the information despite the horrific torture being visited on him. Torture is not done to give people a heroic ending where they shout out "FREEDOM!!" right before croaking. Torture is done simply because its very effective and brutally so. Any sane person wants the pain to just go away and to live - 1984 is a great example of this I think.  Some people could maybe hold out for a short period if they thought an end was coming. But if somebody decides they want information from you and are willing to hurt you again and again and again until you give it up you will give it up I think. Maybe a truly fanatical person could just maybe hold out but I think it occurs IG far too often to be realistic. Maybe some people (not saying you) equate grovelling and pleading for their lives while being tortured with "losing the game" when I would be willing to bet that 100% of the people on the GDB if they were put in a similar RL situation would do and say anything to make it stop.