Things Your Character Would Know to Assume...

[Miee]

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4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

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I just want to chime in and add nothing to the discussion by saying that I love this fact.

And just because I want the Imms to do more work(), maybe this could be stickied also and add that it's also in the "What You Know" in the subject or OP?  Just in the hopes of AngryKank coming on ready to post about how that mean soldier just lied about AngryKank's PC and got her/him fired/enslaved/jailed/mutilated/killed, that person might see this and rethink it.

[Agent_137]

There's a lot to toture, it seems, just from what I've picked up reading tom clancy and  first and second person accounts of the vietnam war.

It's really hard to say exactly how it would turn out.

But it's important as you play the character to not ignore his pain. It's easy to do, since you don't feel it, of course. But it's another part of the general skill of roleplaying. So, try to keep the pain in mind. It's real for your character.

And if you land in jail, maybe spend your free time googling for things about the effects of torture on a person.

[wizturbo]

99.9% of the time, torture will work.  If its prolonged, its almost a sure thing.  I see it as very poor roleplaying for anyone who refuses to talk while under prolonged intense torture.  Whether they speak the truth or not, is another story, but if your being tortured your going to give SOME story to make the pain stop.  If they keep torturing you, you'll probably start telling more and more of the truth until you wish you could tell them absolutely everything you've ever known just to make the pain stop.  Someone mentioned 1984, -that- is realistic effects of torture.  

Granted there is some degree of skill required on behalf of the torturer, but let me tell you right now, a Templar is usually ADEPT at this skill.

The only exception I can think of would be the dwarves.  If telling the torturer a certain piece of information goes against their focus, I believe some dwarves could hold out indefinitely.  Which would mean physical pain couldn't work on them, and some more clever tactics would be needed.

[Hiya]

I completely agree with everything said on the topic, this is a great post. But it reminded me of a story I just thought I should tell for all of you out there who like to spit in the templar's eye.

I watched a documentary on a POW from the vietnam war. He was tied to four metal stakes in the ground, sprawled out on his back for 3 weeks exposed to the elements. No food, and only scarce rain water to keep him alive. Every day for hours at a time he was tortured relentlessly. He had all of his fingers amputated, with the exclusion of his thumbs. Metal rods ran through his flesh all over his body. His skin was exposed to high ph acid and he got your run of the mill beating. None of that mattered, the part that matters is, at the end of the three weeks, his knees were crushed with a sledge hammer....actually beaten so much that the bones were powder when they finally untied him and was dragging him off to shoot him. When out of sight of the camp and laying sprawled on the ground, he lifted up his broken leg, kicked the gun of the single soldier aside and tripped him, when they were both prone he used his remaning thumbs and limp arms to break the soldiers neck. After which, he ran 4 miles to the extraction point that was set for him over three weeks ago,,,,he managed to keep track of the days and time through all of this. Through all of this, the POW never gave away the position of the supply depot he had been transfering signals for......So this goes to show that if you believe enough in your cause...go ahead and let those bastards torture you, spit in thier eye. It is possible to endure.

[Solas]

Damn...that's kinda hard to believe...  :?  . Especially the part where he travels four miles with shattered knees...also the part where he trips the shoulder from the ground, with his shattered knees...with three weeks of starving...(that being 21 days without food and adequate water).

If that happened though...kudos to that soldier.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They need to put that guys head in some sort of a spider-machine and give him lazers and machine guns and stuff.

[wizturbo]

Ya, sort of hard to believe on that story.

[Agent_137]

They need to put that guys head in some sort of a spider-machine and give him lazers and machine guns and stuff.

Yea, all Dragoon style.

While the story is insane, I surely wouldn't call it impossible, either. The will to survive can do surprising things. It would be neat to have something more firm than a summary of the story on a forum to refer to.[/url]

[jmordetsky]

I completely agree with everything said on the topic, this is a great post. But it reminded me of a story I just thought I should tell for all of you out there who like to spit in the templar's eye.

I watched a documentary on a POW from the vietnam war. He was tied to four metal stakes in the ground, sprawled out on his back for 3 weeks exposed to the elements. No food, and only scarce rain water to keep him alive. Every day for hours at a time he was tortured relentlessly. He had all of his fingers amputated, with the exclusion of his thumbs. Metal rods ran through his flesh all over his body. His skin was exposed to high ph acid and he got your run of the mill beating. None of that mattered, the part that matters is, at the end of the three weeks, his knees were crushed with a sledge hammer....actually beaten so much that the bones were powder when they finally untied him and was dragging him off to shoot him. When out of sight of the camp and laying sprawled on the ground, he lifted up his broken leg, kicked the gun of the single soldier aside and tripped him, when they were both prone he used his remaning thumbs and limp arms to break the soldiers neck. After which, he ran 4 miles to the extraction point that was set for him over three weeks ago,,,,he managed to keep track of the days and time through all of this. Through all of this, the POW never gave away the position of the supply depot he had been transfering signals for......So this goes to show that if you believe enough in your cause...go ahead and let those bastards torture you, spit in thier eye. It is possible to endure.

Um....You watch to many chuck noris movies man.

My first year of college I was in the reserve officers training corps, I'm no military expert....But the first thing they taught me in the classes I had to take was that if you get captured by an enemy, just tell them everything you know. The reason being is, they're going to torture you, and you're going to tell them anyway, because that what happens to your brain when you're tortured.

Thats the idea behind "A need to know basis". For a given objective, you only know what you absolutely need to know to get your part of a job done. Because if you get captured, you *are* going to tell them everything you know once they start torturing you.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind at the pentagon that you *will* be broken under torture.  People get tortured for long enough and they start confessing to shit they DIDN'T do and MAKING UP shit to rat on their friends about, just so they have something to rat about with the slim hopes that the people torturing them will stop torturing them.

So if all people can eventually be broken under pain, why so we see so many PCs who spit in a templar's face after being whipped, having their arms borken, eye gouged etc, never breaking, never ratting, never confessing. Because there are no RP tangibles, save death which is the end of the RP. *sigh*

All I can say is build up the whip code. Make all weapons support a use/strike command, and add some permanent injury/limb removal code...stuff that permanently takes down your stats, ability to use objects etc.

Players will take notice if their total hit points sudden goes down by 30% or their stam is quartered because you removed their foot or if their ability to ES anything is suddenly blocked because their hand is gone and their ability to EP is hanging in the balance....

Thats my take.

[Angela Christine]

Zalanthas has the potential for some truely artistic and demented torturers.  You can take someone to the very brink of death, and then have them magickally healed back to merely battered.  If they pass out from pain and bloodloss, you can have them magickally awakened.  Certain magicks and psionic abilities may even be able to overcome shock or catatonic states.  They can do nearly anything to you, and make sure you stay awake and alert the whole time -- even when you are alone.  With the right magick, they can make it so you never sleep again.  They can torture a favorite toy YEARS, taking them to the very brink of death again and again -- and then putting them back together, more or less.  That's a lot of practise that they can bring to bear on a reluctant informant.

All I can say is build up the whip code. Make all weapons support a use/strike command, and add some permanent injury/limb removal code...stuff that permanently takes down your stats, ability to use objects etc.

Players will take notice if their total hit points sudden goes down by 30% or their stam is quartered because you removed their foot or if their ability to ES anything is suddenly blocked because their hand is gone and their ability to EP is hanging in the balance....

Hmm, I think that could be counter-productive.  If it is PERMANENT dammage then some players are going to feel like the character is ruined, crippled, and OOCly they have nothing left to lose.  A new character and a new roll will give them a very good chance at getting a statistically "better" character.  All they lose is a few skill points, and those are easier to regain than stats.  I think this would just make that situation worse, people likely to ignore torture in the first place would probably -want- to dump a crippled chracter.

Lingering dammage, similar to dehydration dammage, could be useful.  Not permanent dammage.  Knowing you will suck for a week is a pain in the ass, but not as much of a pain as creating a new character.  


Angela Christine

[Xamminy]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

[Agent_137]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

Um . . .

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?


. . .

I don't get it.

[SRB]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

Um . . .

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?


. . .

I don't get it.

I doubt that's what Xamminy meant, Agent. The responsibility is upon the people being tortured, not the former.

[mansa]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?

Some people -have- retired characters because of IC results of their IC actions....  they retired because they don't like the new promotion they've received, they don't like that they have less fingers or limbs.  They don't like it that their character has scars on their perfect body.  So they retire and make a new one.

Xamminy has said that once people get -over- the immature thought that... having an impure or 'broken' character who has a 'bad reputation'  is bad and not enjoyable to play...  that the world of zalanthas will have a more realistic feel to it.

He's saying that some people like to play the hero all the time...and cannot play anything else.

[Kill4Free]

Im a hero!

[wizturbo]

Basically, my thoughts are people who play the "I'm invincible to torture" should just not get karma, or have it removed.  Thats my thoughts.  But i'm a bit of an extremist.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?

Some people -have- retired characters because of IC results of their IC actions....  they retired because they don't like the new promotion they've received, they don't like that they have less fingers or limbs.  They don't like it that their character has scars on their perfect body.  So they retire and make a new one.

Xamminy has said that once people get -over- the immature thought that... having an impure or 'broken' character who has a 'bad reputation'  is bad and not enjoyable to play...  that the world of zalanthas will have a more realistic feel to it.

He's saying that some people like to play the hero all the time...and cannot play anything else.

I kind of used to have the hero all the time attitude.

But on a past character, something took place which caused a deformity to the character, and while codedly it hindered nothing, rp-wise it made me have to work to reevaluate a lot of the way the character thought.

I had the urge to retire, but a certain few imms all actually emailed me and sent a few encouraging notes/wants to see me continue on. thus I did, and all in all, it provided quite a few times of good roleplay, as well as a fun individual struggle for the character to get past it and move on. The end result was rather pleasing I'd say.

[Agent_137]

Yea, I had a character concept completely altered due to IG events.

It's called GOOD ROLEPLAY.

If you can't handle radical change to your character due to events, go write a book.

So if they want to retire, let them. I don't see why this is an issue. I'm here for my enjoyment, and I try to help out other people's enjoyment of the game when I can. But if they are unreasonable, like, not being able to handle  a radical change due to repercussions of their OWN actions, fuck 'em.

I mean, am I just totally out of line here? I still think I'm missing something.

[Malifaxis]

I'm usually considered pretty out of line... but I totally agree.

Fuck the tw...(glances at his sig)





"Awwww...fuck."
-The Crow

[Akaramu]

On the subject of broken characters:

I once had a character who suicided after being gemmed. I really didnt want her to, and was frustrated over it, but due to a belief system she had deeply absorbed during the course of play before, it was impossible she'd go on like that and support the worst thing she ever learned about. It was something too deep for me to change. I missed out on a really fun role because of it.

Sometimes staying IC is not fun.

I had another PC who I, by mistake, created as a mutant. During character creation I did not realize what I was doing, I never wanted to play a mutant, and missed out on a role I REALLY wanted to play because of it. You see, it wasnt IC events that broke her, it was a mistake I made during character creation that I could not correct. I had been so much looking forward to that role I missed because of it, that I couldnt even find the motivation to log into the game after I realized that stupid mistake locked me out of it.

Am I one of those evil players who cant handle being broken? I dont know. I do however know that I play any game for the fun, and if IC events make me lose the motivation to log in, or get my character stuck in a situation that really isnt OOCly enjoyable for me and that I cannot get out of, retirement seems a better option than not playing the game.

I dont play hero characters, I like having them imperfect, but sometimes IC events destroy all the fun for me.

[jmordetsky]

Yea, I had a character concept completely altered due to IG events.

It's called GOOD ROLEPLAY.

If you can't handle radical change to your character due to events, go write a book.

So if they want to retire, let them. I don't see why this is an issue. I'm here for my enjoyment, and I try to help out other people's enjoyment of the game when I can. But if they are unreasonable, like, not being able to handle  a radical change due to repercussions of their OWN actions, fuck 'em.

I mean, am I just totally out of line here? I still think I'm missing something.

I agree. Or even the radical repercussions of someone else's actions.

[mansa]

Now, I'm going to take another standpoint.

This is a game.  The fun produced in this game is my own fun.  If I am not having fun in this game then I am going to stop playing this game.

Sometimes, after dramatic IC events, it's better to retire than to play it out.  The most often offense (in my opinion) is when a female character gets pregnant and then has a child.  Almost every commoner (with the exception of certain tribes and blood families) will now devote their entire lives to promoting the good health and nature of this child they have.  They won't take it sparring, they won't take it on adventures, they won't take it to the bars.  They will be someplace called home and teaching and training their child.  It takes years for this.

Some people -hate- -HATE- -HATE- doing that, and would rather stop playing Armageddon than log into a character who they despise.


It is very tricky to sort out when to retire and when not to retire.  I always tell people to play for another two weeks, and if you haven't logged in at all during those two weeks....  retire the character, take the rest of the month off, and then come back after that, refreshed and renewed.

Now, this is my advice.  Not law.

[My 2 sids]

I like both mansa posts.  First and foremost this is a game!  It should be fun!   Part of that fun may happen after turns the player doesn't anticipate.  Players should, IMOHO, give the chance to enjoy characters who turn out very different than what they had planned.  If the player after considering and trying to get into the character finds they just can't, then do the best to wrap things up and start again.

[Cenghiz]

C'mon people.. Retiring is not evil... I didn't ever retire because of torture, but I never play heroes, hardly play warriors so it was just nice RP to play torture and no templar decapacipated me. (sorry if I mispelled.) But I had boring characters. Once I had a h-giant who was great for other people's RP, I'm sure the other people were entertained. But I was bored. I was just like a performer, logging in, making other people smile or laugh and logging out. I retired. If you're not entertaining yourself, you'd better retire.

[jmordetsky]

No one is saying retiring is bad....If something happens to you and you don't want to play the char anymore...Cool, feel free.

But to *not* create IC coded consequences because you're afraid people will retire is just silly...

Get maimed by a templar? Hate your char now? Retire away.....I'm fine with that...The initial thought that lead to the retirement conv was the introduction of coded consequences to torture that made gave players incentive to *not* want to be tortured.