Things Your Character Would Know to Assume...

[Naiona]

A recent string of IC posts in the various taverns seem to make some basic assumptions about how people in the two citystates view the various militias.  Unfortunately, these assumptions are the polar opposite of how most if not nearly all commoners would see -any- authority figure in either city.  

So, without further ado, here are a few basic things to remember:

1) Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

2) Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well.  -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

3) No one in their right mind in either city state would openly complain about any type of corruption in the militia or templarate.  In Tuluk, those who do simply vanish without a trace.  In Allanak, those who do are generally publicly tortured.  EVERYONE knows this.

4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I hope this might help a little to capture the basic mindset of the public when it comes to dealing with militia and the templarate.  Modern concepts of fair trials and justice are simply nonexistent in Zalanthas. If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful.  It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

[Agent_137]

I'm assuming we can take this as an official statement from the staff, and that it is as holy as something found in the docs.

Perhaps it could be placed in the docs somewhere.

[JollyGreenGiant]

If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful. It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

That just bears repeating because it so neatly sums up the way things work.

[mansa]

1) Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Translation?  There is no justice for the weak.  You got murdered.  People are bastards.  They hate you because you are a challenge to them and their power they have.  It is a Dog eat Dog world.

2) Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well.  -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

Examples?  I have paid this soldier there to kick the chair and take you to jail.  Can you pay him more to stop?  Soldiers are currupt and soldiers are in charge, because their power is a mob power.  Soldiers are another form of the mob.

3) No one in their right mind in either city state would openly complain about any type of corruption in the militia or templarate.  In Tuluk, those who do simply vanish without a trace.  In Allanak, those who do are generally publicly tortured.  EVERYONE knows this.

Remember folks.  This isn't earth.  This isn't north america.  This isn't the united states of america.  Our thoughts and wishes that are -the core of our being- as human beings are vastly different than those in Zalanthas.  It is about role-play, and getting outside of our box, outside our bubble, and outside of our dreams in North American Culture.

4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

Yup.

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I feel that the greatest mistake that players make, is that they have no real sense of 'fear' for their character.  They all seem to have a 'backbone' and are willing to spit in a templar's eye while the templar is prying off the skin of their fingers.
I view that when a templar asks you (and the you being a commoner in the city states) to go to a 'special' place, you're probably going to shit your pants because you're so scared.  Your character's heart will be racing, and you will be afraid.
The few exceptions to this, I believe, would be some of the nobility, some of the merchant house blood, and that's about it.  Oh yes.  Gypsies are immune to this, too.   This might be different to everybody else.

I hope this might help a little to capture the basic mindset of the public when it comes to dealing with militia and the templarate.  Modern concepts of fair trials and justice are simply nonexistent in Zalanthas. If you are accused, you are guilty until someone important decides you might be useful.  It doesn't really matter if you did it or not.

True say.  True say.

[wizturbo]

Please archive this thread.  Its a SHINING example for new and old players alike, fuck it, make it a help document.  People DO NOT understand the core concepts said in this post for the most part, and the game would benefit greatly if they did.

[Tamarin]

agreed.

[mansa]

i disagree with the archiving.  You can add more to the discussion now.  And who bothers to read the archives?

[Quo]

Thanks - I found this very helpful. Can it go into the "What You Know" section, or at least get archived, please?

Quo

[Quo]

And who bothers to read the archives?

I do, regularly, and I'm sure others do as well. They're free of insults, and full of insights.

[wizturbo]

i disagree with the archiving.  You can add more to the discussion now.  And who bothers to read the archives?

I really can't think anything more to add except commentary, which is just agreeing with the post.  I personally read the archives, but I recommended making it a helpfile so those who don't might catch a glimpse.

[Spud]

I really feel like this post was solely aimed at me. I have broken just about all of those at a point in time. :oops:

[wizturbo]

I really feel like this post was solely aimed at me. I have broken just about all of those at a point in time.

Yes, it probably was Spud.  But salvation can be yours if you put your faith in our Glorious leader, AC.

[Savak]

Please stay on topic or keep it to the OOC forum/new thread as appropriate.  Otherwise we'll lock this.

That said, I think it's a great as well as simple list, and is likely to end up in new and wonderful places in the future.

-Savak

[jmordetsky]

5) People are (rightfully) frightened of the templarate in both cities.  Rumors of people vanishing in the night abound in Tuluk and keep complaints out of public forums.  Constant displays of ferocious violence in Allanak keep pretty much everyone quiet in public. Those who are captured and value their lives generally know that both bribes and shows of respect for their captors are their only hope of survival.

I feel that the greatest mistake that players make, is that they have no real sense of 'fear' for their character.  They all seem to have a 'backbone' and are willing to spit in a templar's eye while the templar is prying off the skin of their fingers.
I view that when a templar asks you (and the you being a commoner in the city states) to go to a 'special' place, you're probably going to shit your pants because you're so scared.  Your character's heart will be racing, and you will be afraid.
The few exceptions to this, I believe, would be some of the nobility, some of the merchant house blood, and that's about it.  Oh yes.  Gypsies are immune to this, too.   This might be different to everybody else.

I've seen a good deal of this, as well mostly from n00bs. I think it can only really be corrected by the PC templars making more use of the HG and whip code. This usually and realistically curbs it a bit. When that fails, PCs who chose this route need to know that this is Allanak and you *will* die for said offenses. While, harsh...sometimes theonly way this can be taught is through example. My advice is that PC templar's be instructed to be fearless in setting those examples where cases are blatant.

[Kill4Free]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance :)

You're dying because you don't bribe them and show respect.  For God's sake, learn from your deaths or they will simply happen again.

[Larrath]

Think about this realistically.
Let's say that you live in a nasty dictatorship and some guy from the secret police took you to the station for a chat.

He -can- kill you, but maybe he won't.  Maybe he'll let you off with a fine or a warning or just a beating, or maybe he just wants you to snitch on someone.  Besides, if you piss him off too much, there's nothing stopping him from going after your family and friends and their dogs.


Don't think about it in a "If I'm losing a PC, I wanna go out with a bang" manner.  Sure, you get to do some stuff that looks fun...but if you really want to go with a bang, go with the fear and play -that-.  No matter how good at roleplaying you are, in 99% of all cases, you'll end up having a lot more fun playing with the fear and begging for your life instead of spitting in their eyes, and they will also have a better time.

Here's another thing to keep in mind: when the Titanic sunk, what do you think happened?

1) People stopped at nothing to get to the lifeboats for that longshot of a chance at staying alive.
Or:
2) People sat on couches and said all the stuff they kept in while waiting for their deaths.

So there.  Acting cool is neat, but trying to put on a cool face while soiling your sandcloth is neater.

[Rindan]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance

I find that to be completely untrue.  The probably is that people are generally too stupid to talk themselves out of such problems.  There is a time to fight, and there is a time to play realistically, swallow your pride, and do the things it takes to get away with your life.  I had a very bad character who lived a life that bordered on being a raider.  He got hauled into jail four times.  Three of those times he was accused of treason, the other time he was being used as a bargaining chip between two very large powers (one of which wanted him dead – preferable after a lengthy torture).  He got out of all four instances with his life.

Getting out with your life is generally easy, it just might take a little sacrifice.

1)  Be respectful.  This will save your ass 80% of the time, especially if you have done nothing all that wrong.  It might not save you from a beating or a fine, but for the most part it will save you from death.  I can't count how many times I have seen people die just because they couldn't swallow their pride.  Bow, call the templar Lord Templar, don't argue your innocents, and just answer the templars questions.  Accept whatever the templar says, even if it is your guilt.  You might pay a price, but if the offense is minor, you will keep your life.

2)  Bribe them.  If the offense is minor, this will likely get you out of jail without any pain.  Tell the templar you are terribly sorry that you wasted his time having to deal with you and offer to compensate him for his troubles.  The templar won't get pissed off that you offered a bribe.  If you are in over your head, he might not accept the bribe, but believe me, a bribe –never- hurts.  At worst, it just won't help.  As an elf, when I was caught I would generally make up an lame excuse as to why that person to get stolen from (northerner, elf, 'rinther, criminal, exc) and offer the templar a bribe as a way to repay him for wasting his time on me.

3)  Be useful.  This is the big one.  This is the one that lets you escape a templar even when you deserve to die and you did more then just a minor offense.  A person who can be useful to a templar is a person who is going to live a much longer life.  If there is some special skill, knowledge, or connection your character has, use it to get your ass out of prison.  Don't blow your load too early.  You don't want to wear out your usefulness before you get out of prison.  Just find a good reason why you can be useful to the templar.  It might be a more long term bribe, information, connections, theft, murder, whatever.  Just offer something of value.  Unless you REALLY pissed off the templar in question, you can probably get out if you have something of use to offer.

4)  Lie.  This goes along with number three.  Some times you are exactly as useless as you seem to be, you don't have the 'sid to bribe your way out of death, and all the respect in the world isn't going to help you.  In this case, lie.  Tell the templar you are useful in some way you are not.  Convince him he has more to gain by letting you go then by killing you.

Things not to do that will get you killed every time include:
1) Pleading innocents.  If the templar asks for your story, give it to them.  Maybe he will be nice and let you go.  Otherwise though, if a templar says you are guilty, YOU ARE GUILTY.  Don't bother to argue.  If he has declared your guilt, go back to the four steps to get out of jail and start using them.  Don't waste your time arguing your innocents.  The templar just doesn't care.

2)  Threatening the templar.  If you do this, you are an idiot and will die.

3)  Show disrespect.  Any sign of disrespect is a good way to die quickly.  Bow deeply, call the templar Lord Templar, and don't puff out your chest.  Look small and only speak when spoken too.

Surviving a Templar encounter is generally easy.  The problem is that people can't turn off their American ideals of justice and pride for a few seconds, and this is generally fatal.

[Kill4Free]

First of all, I didnt personally lose any character to templar, I was saved because I helped people of their house in the past.  But lots of chars that arent very old, wont have anything they could bribe a templar with, and a useless bribe would be more of an insult than anything.
My chars would probably try to help the templar until they realise they have no chance of living, then instead of betraying one of their friends, or city, they would die without giving anything out.

[Sanvean]

I've aded this into the whatyouknow docs at http://www.armageddon.org/intro/authority.html

[Briber]

First of all, I didnt personally lose any character to templar, I was saved because I helped people of their house in the past.  But lots of chars that arent very old, wont have anything they could bribe a templar with, and a useless bribe would be more of an insult than anything.

Right here is where the belief is wrong.

Bribes are expected in accordance to the social caste of the briber (a commoner is not expected to bribe in the hundreds of coin) and the level of the offense (for example, a theft is not particularly important).  

One should always listen to any templar they are dealing with and look for the bribe hints - many templars will toss these out.  

Further that, there is no shame or a bad attempt to bribe.  There is no such thing as a "useless" bribe.  If a bribe is not high enough you will be informed so.  If you cannot match the expectation then services are always welcome.

A bribe from a noble should be worth thousands.  And yes, it is my belief that nobles should be bribing templars all the time to curry good will.  

A bribe from a common thief who got picked up for trying to steal from another commoner could be anything from 25 coins to 100 coins.  That's really plenty.

Now, if the thief tried to steal from a merchant, you are looking at a little more than 100 coins... it is all a matter of scale.

If the thief is obviously rich (wearing silks or all sorts of cool items) then the bribe should be larger.  Once again, it scales up.

Templars are always happy to receive gifts.  Sometimes gifts are all that will save a character in the future.  

I'm always amazed at the reluctance on the part of the playerbase to 1) openly bribe templars or even militia and 2) to even make the attempt.

In the end, the basic precept remains:  The police force is corrupt and it is open corruption.  The justice of either city's templarate is often brutal and harsh - but it can usually be circumvented by aptly placed coin or service.  Of course, if you cannot pay... well... there's always the next character.

[Kill4Free]

Ah, alright, I just sorta assumed the Templar were sorta like the shopkeepers, you give them a ridiculous price, and they will get angry and throw you out of the store.

And I never thought a Templar might accept a bribe that is so low, as usually they deal in thousands of sid, not dozens.

[Synthesis]

You know, I hear a lot about avoiding Templars and everything, but I'd just like to remind people that militia PCs are right up there with them.

Granted, militia PCs have a few more restrictions on them, but they have a -direct- line to the Templarate, and if you're Joe Nobody, a Templar is never going to side with you against one of his men.  Nine times out of ten, a death in the prison begins with someone talking shit to a member of the militia, thereby arousing the attention of the entire militia playerbase.

So, to sum it up pithily: don't go around poking your fingers into hornets' nests without expecting to get stung.

[Anonymous]

Look at it this way:
If templar gains nothing from killing you, why refuse the couple coins he can get from releasing you? And if you're a pickpocket or something, he needs you to keep stealing, because obviously if there'll be no pickpockets left in the city, what will he do then?

[Boggis]

My chars would probably try to help the templar until they realise they have no chance of living, then instead of betraying one of their friends, or city, they would die without giving anything out.

I always feel like questioning that kind of character. The Hollywood action hero who steadfastly refuses to give up the information despite the horrific torture being visited on him. Torture is not done to give people a heroic ending where they shout out "FREEDOM!!" right before croaking. Torture is done simply because its very effective and brutally so. Any sane person wants the pain to just go away and to live - 1984 is a great example of this I think.  Some people could maybe hold out for a short period if they thought an end was coming. But if somebody decides they want information from you and are willing to hurt you again and again and again until you give it up you will give it up I think. Maybe a truly fanatical person could just maybe hold out but I think it occurs IG far too often to be realistic. Maybe some people (not saying you) equate grovelling and pleading for their lives while being tortured with "losing the game" when I would be willing to bet that 100% of the people on the GDB if they were put in a similar RL situation would do and say anything to make it stop.

[Miee]

...
4) In Tuluk, it is not an insult to call someone a thief or assassin.  It is an insult of the gravest proportions to call them an amateur thief or amateur assassin.

...

I just want to chime in and add nothing to the discussion by saying that I love this fact.

And just because I want the Imms to do more work(), maybe this could be stickied also and add that it's also in the "What You Know" in the subject or OP?  Just in the hopes of AngryKank coming on ready to post about how that mean soldier just lied about AngryKank's PC and got her/him fired/enslaved/jailed/mutilated/killed, that person might see this and rethink it.

[Agent_137]

There's a lot to toture, it seems, just from what I've picked up reading tom clancy and  first and second person accounts of the vietnam war.

It's really hard to say exactly how it would turn out.

But it's important as you play the character to not ignore his pain. It's easy to do, since you don't feel it, of course. But it's another part of the general skill of roleplaying. So, try to keep the pain in mind. It's real for your character.

And if you land in jail, maybe spend your free time googling for things about the effects of torture on a person.

[wizturbo]

99.9% of the time, torture will work.  If its prolonged, its almost a sure thing.  I see it as very poor roleplaying for anyone who refuses to talk while under prolonged intense torture.  Whether they speak the truth or not, is another story, but if your being tortured your going to give SOME story to make the pain stop.  If they keep torturing you, you'll probably start telling more and more of the truth until you wish you could tell them absolutely everything you've ever known just to make the pain stop.  Someone mentioned 1984, -that- is realistic effects of torture.  

Granted there is some degree of skill required on behalf of the torturer, but let me tell you right now, a Templar is usually ADEPT at this skill.

The only exception I can think of would be the dwarves.  If telling the torturer a certain piece of information goes against their focus, I believe some dwarves could hold out indefinitely.  Which would mean physical pain couldn't work on them, and some more clever tactics would be needed.

[Hiya]

I completely agree with everything said on the topic, this is a great post. But it reminded me of a story I just thought I should tell for all of you out there who like to spit in the templar's eye.

I watched a documentary on a POW from the vietnam war. He was tied to four metal stakes in the ground, sprawled out on his back for 3 weeks exposed to the elements. No food, and only scarce rain water to keep him alive. Every day for hours at a time he was tortured relentlessly. He had all of his fingers amputated, with the exclusion of his thumbs. Metal rods ran through his flesh all over his body. His skin was exposed to high ph acid and he got your run of the mill beating. None of that mattered, the part that matters is, at the end of the three weeks, his knees were crushed with a sledge hammer....actually beaten so much that the bones were powder when they finally untied him and was dragging him off to shoot him. When out of sight of the camp and laying sprawled on the ground, he lifted up his broken leg, kicked the gun of the single soldier aside and tripped him, when they were both prone he used his remaning thumbs and limp arms to break the soldiers neck. After which, he ran 4 miles to the extraction point that was set for him over three weeks ago,,,,he managed to keep track of the days and time through all of this. Through all of this, the POW never gave away the position of the supply depot he had been transfering signals for......So this goes to show that if you believe enough in your cause...go ahead and let those bastards torture you, spit in thier eye. It is possible to endure.

[Solas]

Damn...that's kinda hard to believe...  :?  . Especially the part where he travels four miles with shattered knees...also the part where he trips the shoulder from the ground, with his shattered knees...with three weeks of starving...(that being 21 days without food and adequate water).

If that happened though...kudos to that soldier.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They need to put that guys head in some sort of a spider-machine and give him lazers and machine guns and stuff.

[wizturbo]

Ya, sort of hard to believe on that story.

[Agent_137]

They need to put that guys head in some sort of a spider-machine and give him lazers and machine guns and stuff.

Yea, all Dragoon style.

While the story is insane, I surely wouldn't call it impossible, either. The will to survive can do surprising things. It would be neat to have something more firm than a summary of the story on a forum to refer to.[/url]

[jmordetsky]

I completely agree with everything said on the topic, this is a great post. But it reminded me of a story I just thought I should tell for all of you out there who like to spit in the templar's eye.

I watched a documentary on a POW from the vietnam war. He was tied to four metal stakes in the ground, sprawled out on his back for 3 weeks exposed to the elements. No food, and only scarce rain water to keep him alive. Every day for hours at a time he was tortured relentlessly. He had all of his fingers amputated, with the exclusion of his thumbs. Metal rods ran through his flesh all over his body. His skin was exposed to high ph acid and he got your run of the mill beating. None of that mattered, the part that matters is, at the end of the three weeks, his knees were crushed with a sledge hammer....actually beaten so much that the bones were powder when they finally untied him and was dragging him off to shoot him. When out of sight of the camp and laying sprawled on the ground, he lifted up his broken leg, kicked the gun of the single soldier aside and tripped him, when they were both prone he used his remaning thumbs and limp arms to break the soldiers neck. After which, he ran 4 miles to the extraction point that was set for him over three weeks ago,,,,he managed to keep track of the days and time through all of this. Through all of this, the POW never gave away the position of the supply depot he had been transfering signals for......So this goes to show that if you believe enough in your cause...go ahead and let those bastards torture you, spit in thier eye. It is possible to endure.

Um....You watch to many chuck noris movies man.

My first year of college I was in the reserve officers training corps, I'm no military expert....But the first thing they taught me in the classes I had to take was that if you get captured by an enemy, just tell them everything you know. The reason being is, they're going to torture you, and you're going to tell them anyway, because that what happens to your brain when you're tortured.

Thats the idea behind "A need to know basis". For a given objective, you only know what you absolutely need to know to get your part of a job done. Because if you get captured, you *are* going to tell them everything you know once they start torturing you.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind at the pentagon that you *will* be broken under torture.  People get tortured for long enough and they start confessing to shit they DIDN'T do and MAKING UP shit to rat on their friends about, just so they have something to rat about with the slim hopes that the people torturing them will stop torturing them.

So if all people can eventually be broken under pain, why so we see so many PCs who spit in a templar's face after being whipped, having their arms borken, eye gouged etc, never breaking, never ratting, never confessing. Because there are no RP tangibles, save death which is the end of the RP. *sigh*

All I can say is build up the whip code. Make all weapons support a use/strike command, and add some permanent injury/limb removal code...stuff that permanently takes down your stats, ability to use objects etc.

Players will take notice if their total hit points sudden goes down by 30% or their stam is quartered because you removed their foot or if their ability to ES anything is suddenly blocked because their hand is gone and their ability to EP is hanging in the balance....

Thats my take.

[Angela Christine]

Zalanthas has the potential for some truely artistic and demented torturers.  You can take someone to the very brink of death, and then have them magickally healed back to merely battered.  If they pass out from pain and bloodloss, you can have them magickally awakened.  Certain magicks and psionic abilities may even be able to overcome shock or catatonic states.  They can do nearly anything to you, and make sure you stay awake and alert the whole time -- even when you are alone.  With the right magick, they can make it so you never sleep again.  They can torture a favorite toy YEARS, taking them to the very brink of death again and again -- and then putting them back together, more or less.  That's a lot of practise that they can bring to bear on a reluctant informant.

All I can say is build up the whip code. Make all weapons support a use/strike command, and add some permanent injury/limb removal code...stuff that permanently takes down your stats, ability to use objects etc.

Players will take notice if their total hit points sudden goes down by 30% or their stam is quartered because you removed their foot or if their ability to ES anything is suddenly blocked because their hand is gone and their ability to EP is hanging in the balance....

Hmm, I think that could be counter-productive.  If it is PERMANENT dammage then some players are going to feel like the character is ruined, crippled, and OOCly they have nothing left to lose.  A new character and a new roll will give them a very good chance at getting a statistically "better" character.  All they lose is a few skill points, and those are easier to regain than stats.  I think this would just make that situation worse, people likely to ignore torture in the first place would probably -want- to dump a crippled chracter.

Lingering dammage, similar to dehydration dammage, could be useful.  Not permanent dammage.  Knowing you will suck for a week is a pain in the ass, but not as much of a pain as creating a new character.  


Angela Christine

[Xamminy]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

[Agent_137]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

Um . . .

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?


. . .

I don't get it.

[SRB]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

Um . . .

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?


. . .

I don't get it.

I doubt that's what Xamminy meant, Agent. The responsibility is upon the people being tortured, not the former.

[mansa]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?

Some people -have- retired characters because of IC results of their IC actions....  they retired because they don't like the new promotion they've received, they don't like that they have less fingers or limbs.  They don't like it that their character has scars on their perfect body.  So they retire and make a new one.

Xamminy has said that once people get -over- the immature thought that... having an impure or 'broken' character who has a 'bad reputation'  is bad and not enjoyable to play...  that the world of zalanthas will have a more realistic feel to it.

He's saying that some people like to play the hero all the time...and cannot play anything else.

[Kill4Free]

Im a hero!

[wizturbo]

Basically, my thoughts are people who play the "I'm invincible to torture" should just not get karma, or have it removed.  Thats my thoughts.  But i'm a bit of an extremist.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Some people don't like suffering the repurcussions of their actions.  They'd rather die or retire and go on to a character that has a clean slate.  Once this mentality ceases, the world will be a better place.

So you guys are saying that people shouldn't torture people and wish all for some reasonable permanent damage, because it'll piss off a twink?

Some people -have- retired characters because of IC results of their IC actions....  they retired because they don't like the new promotion they've received, they don't like that they have less fingers or limbs.  They don't like it that their character has scars on their perfect body.  So they retire and make a new one.

Xamminy has said that once people get -over- the immature thought that... having an impure or 'broken' character who has a 'bad reputation'  is bad and not enjoyable to play...  that the world of zalanthas will have a more realistic feel to it.

He's saying that some people like to play the hero all the time...and cannot play anything else.

I kind of used to have the hero all the time attitude.

But on a past character, something took place which caused a deformity to the character, and while codedly it hindered nothing, rp-wise it made me have to work to reevaluate a lot of the way the character thought.

I had the urge to retire, but a certain few imms all actually emailed me and sent a few encouraging notes/wants to see me continue on. thus I did, and all in all, it provided quite a few times of good roleplay, as well as a fun individual struggle for the character to get past it and move on. The end result was rather pleasing I'd say.

[Agent_137]

Yea, I had a character concept completely altered due to IG events.

It's called GOOD ROLEPLAY.

If you can't handle radical change to your character due to events, go write a book.

So if they want to retire, let them. I don't see why this is an issue. I'm here for my enjoyment, and I try to help out other people's enjoyment of the game when I can. But if they are unreasonable, like, not being able to handle  a radical change due to repercussions of their OWN actions, fuck 'em.

I mean, am I just totally out of line here? I still think I'm missing something.

[Malifaxis]

I'm usually considered pretty out of line... but I totally agree.

Fuck the tw...(glances at his sig)





"Awwww...fuck."
-The Crow

[Akaramu]

On the subject of broken characters:

I once had a character who suicided after being gemmed. I really didnt want her to, and was frustrated over it, but due to a belief system she had deeply absorbed during the course of play before, it was impossible she'd go on like that and support the worst thing she ever learned about. It was something too deep for me to change. I missed out on a really fun role because of it.

Sometimes staying IC is not fun.

I had another PC who I, by mistake, created as a mutant. During character creation I did not realize what I was doing, I never wanted to play a mutant, and missed out on a role I REALLY wanted to play because of it. You see, it wasnt IC events that broke her, it was a mistake I made during character creation that I could not correct. I had been so much looking forward to that role I missed because of it, that I couldnt even find the motivation to log into the game after I realized that stupid mistake locked me out of it.

Am I one of those evil players who cant handle being broken? I dont know. I do however know that I play any game for the fun, and if IC events make me lose the motivation to log in, or get my character stuck in a situation that really isnt OOCly enjoyable for me and that I cannot get out of, retirement seems a better option than not playing the game.

I dont play hero characters, I like having them imperfect, but sometimes IC events destroy all the fun for me.

[jmordetsky]

Yea, I had a character concept completely altered due to IG events.

It's called GOOD ROLEPLAY.

If you can't handle radical change to your character due to events, go write a book.

So if they want to retire, let them. I don't see why this is an issue. I'm here for my enjoyment, and I try to help out other people's enjoyment of the game when I can. But if they are unreasonable, like, not being able to handle  a radical change due to repercussions of their OWN actions, fuck 'em.

I mean, am I just totally out of line here? I still think I'm missing something.

I agree. Or even the radical repercussions of someone else's actions.

[mansa]

Now, I'm going to take another standpoint.

This is a game.  The fun produced in this game is my own fun.  If I am not having fun in this game then I am going to stop playing this game.

Sometimes, after dramatic IC events, it's better to retire than to play it out.  The most often offense (in my opinion) is when a female character gets pregnant and then has a child.  Almost every commoner (with the exception of certain tribes and blood families) will now devote their entire lives to promoting the good health and nature of this child they have.  They won't take it sparring, they won't take it on adventures, they won't take it to the bars.  They will be someplace called home and teaching and training their child.  It takes years for this.

Some people -hate- -HATE- -HATE- doing that, and would rather stop playing Armageddon than log into a character who they despise.


It is very tricky to sort out when to retire and when not to retire.  I always tell people to play for another two weeks, and if you haven't logged in at all during those two weeks....  retire the character, take the rest of the month off, and then come back after that, refreshed and renewed.

Now, this is my advice.  Not law.

[My 2 sids]

I like both mansa posts.  First and foremost this is a game!  It should be fun!   Part of that fun may happen after turns the player doesn't anticipate.  Players should, IMOHO, give the chance to enjoy characters who turn out very different than what they had planned.  If the player after considering and trying to get into the character finds they just can't, then do the best to wrap things up and start again.

[Cenghiz]

C'mon people.. Retiring is not evil... I didn't ever retire because of torture, but I never play heroes, hardly play warriors so it was just nice RP to play torture and no templar decapacipated me. (sorry if I mispelled.) But I had boring characters. Once I had a h-giant who was great for other people's RP, I'm sure the other people were entertained. But I was bored. I was just like a performer, logging in, making other people smile or laugh and logging out. I retired. If you're not entertaining yourself, you'd better retire.

[jmordetsky]

No one is saying retiring is bad....If something happens to you and you don't want to play the char anymore...Cool, feel free.

But to *not* create IC coded consequences because you're afraid people will retire is just silly...

Get maimed by a templar? Hate your char now? Retire away.....I'm fine with that...The initial thought that lead to the retirement conv was the introduction of coded consequences to torture that made gave players incentive to *not* want to be tortured.

[wizturbo]

How did this thread derail so far off course?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think it's ever breaking character to not kill yourself.

Ever.

Suicide is a serious matter in both real life and on Armageddon, and as such, should not be taken lightly, or as a method of ceasing the play of a character.  The people of Zalanthas generally have terribly strong desires for self-preservation, and this is reflected in that there is no easy way to inflict damage upon yourself to commit suicide.  However, this does not mean that it is impossible to kill yourself, but you will have to figure out exactly how on your own.

In my view, if you really feel as though you have a good reason to kill your character, go ahead.  But stop and think about.  Because most likely, you're just over-playing your character's personality.  There is one thing that binds every human, elf, half-elf, mul, half-giant, dwarf, magicker and templar.  They do not want to die.  This is true of every character, unless you're suffering from a severe form of depression.

[Dracul]

I find that quite often you will die anyway if a templar takes the time to haul you somewhere.  Might as well go down with some resistance

Duude...no way.

Templars would kill you on spot if they wanted you dead. think about it this way...dragging you somewhere would be  a waste of effort if they dont want to work something out.   theyre CORRUPT...dude...exploit.

[Akaramu]

Templars would kill you on spot if they wanted you dead. think about it this way...dragging you somewhere would be  a waste of effort if they dont want to work something out. theyre CORRUPT...dude...exploit.

My experiences with templars overall were good, and I found the above statement to be true.

Except ONE time, and I'm still so bitter about it, its one of the reasons I'm not currently playing the mud.

[Ghost]

The templar should have found a better use of you if your PC is dead.

Who knows, maybe your rival was quicker to get you eliminated.

And about giving hint why it all happened that way: Actually, it is realistic, that templars do not tell why they are doing, what they are doing.  It only happens in movies, that the bad guy tells the whole story to the victims at the end of the movie, before a miracle happens and the bad guy is get killed.

[Akaramu]

Who knows, maybe your rival was quicker to get you eliminated.

Heh, what rival? That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of. Some sort of closure would have been VERY helpful. That wasnt the real thing that bothered me, it was something else, but I really wontnt go into it.

The majority of templars I encountered rocked, kudos to you.

[Elgiva]

That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of.

You never know. You can´t be sure who gets upset by an innocent note or gesture. Maybe you just look similar as a known troublemaker. Maybe your rival is that girl who wears same dress as you do and who has "the right friends". Maybe Lord Templar doesn´t like colour of your shoes.

It is not necessary that you did something "wrong". There are lot of things behind the main scene.

[Akaramu]

Templars dont PK over shoe color, I'm sure. It must be something major.

I dont believe in being PKed without the slightest clue why, and without ever having taken any sort of risk, it gets me depressed. I'm happy for everyone who has a thicker skin than me.

[wizturbo]

I do agree that Templars should refrain from killing over shoe color.  I don't believe it has to be anything 'major' to kill someone however, as long as its IC, its fair game.  This isn't like the real world where people's lives are worth something.  In Zalanthas, commoners are worth even less then slaves in most instances, because you dont' even have to answer to their owners if you kill them.  

I completely disagree with the concept that you need to be informed why your dying.  A templar, or any PC for that matter, is in no way obligated to inform you.  It's much better if they hint at it in some way...but sometimes thats not IC, and sometimes hints aren't picked up and thats life.  If you can't handle it, sorry to say, this game might not be for you.

One good example of why people often don't inform, is both IC and OOC reasons:

IC reason, you tell them why they're about to die, then they way their buddy and now a plot might be unravelled.  This isn't the movies where villians have this long speech before they execute a hero, its Zalanthas where they kill you before you even realize they're a villian.

OOC reason, that player now has OOC knowledge about a plot, your character, or various other things that they could potentially abuse.  I would really hate it if a big secret of mine was revealed, by someone's new character that happened to stumble upon the information...even though they'd probably never have guessed it in a million years.

[wizturbo]

Heh, what rival? That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of.

The best rivals are the ones that effectively conceal their contempt for you.  The ones that act like your best friend, while they're secretly poisoning your cup of wine.

Reasons for their hatred of you, things you did 'wrong'?

You were born?  You were born a certain race, or of a certain tribe?  You happened to have some clothing, sid, jewelry, weapons that a particular person wanted to take from you and thought killing you would be the best solution.  Maybe you slept with someone's mate, and they wanted to kill you to get you out of the picture.  Maybe you made friends with someone, and that person's enemies took note of it and decided to kill you because of it.  Maybe you overheard something you shouldn't have.  Maybe your just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The list is endless.  Yes, its pretty upsetting at times that your character's life isn't always in your hands...but thats how things are.  Its realistic, and anyone who thinks the real world is "fair" has a lot of learning to do.

[Akaramu]

You dont all need to 'correct' me.

I am well aware of the points mentioned.

I never said there is anything wrong with the game. I never said it shouldnt be harsh. Or that it should be fair.

It just, really, isnt for me. That was my whole point. I wish fun and happiness to everyone who can deal with it better than me.

[Xamminy]

Templars dont PK over shoe color, I'm sure. It must be something major.

Like the 1000 'sid they may have been given by your rival that hated your shoe color?

[Cenghiz]

Some templars DO torture without a prominent reason.. That's the IC world we're living in. But even in such condition -templar is a pervert who likes to torture and you're the prey today without a reason- templars avoid doing damage that will affect your char all your life.. If something's done to you, you must have done something. Maybe this ain't the real Zalanthas and templars would go shattering limbs in it, but for playibility issues I guess, they avoid marginal actions. I guess I would still be OK if templars wielded their swords more often.

Anyway I don't play in big cities :p That won't affect me much..

[Maybe42or54]

One of the most fun times I have ever had was getting hauled to prison thinking I was the shit.
I acted like I was god and he couldn't touch me.
As time went on, about two minutes, My PC broke and was pleading for his life.
I even tried to emote crying, but my buff ass warrior was slayed. Subdued and unarmed type. I still could have won, if I had a weapon.

[Solas]

Since we're on the topic of torture, what do people think of getting a limb cut off during such scenes OOCly? And if that does happen, do you roleplay it likewise, or just shrug it off?  :roll:

[EvilRoeSlade]

Heh, what rival? That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of. Some sort of closure would have been VERY helpful.

Then clearly you were executed, and rightly so, for being too nice.  Playing a real character might be helpful in the future.

[wizturbo]

Then clearly you were executed, and rightly so, for being too nice.

ROFL!  This is actually true.  I'm SUPER suspicious of nice people in Zalanthas, and I'm tempted to murder them quick before I find out they're "nice" sorcerors or mindbenders waiting to eat my children.

[Ghost]

Heh, what rival? That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of.

I will just say, "you never know" to this part.  There are more than a couple of incidents that made me go like "Oh, shit!" with the same char.  You walk away from a place, you return after an IG year or two, and you find out, your name (you changed your name by the way, so your "new" name) is being used in a crime organization by a member of crime organization.  So I find my char quite in some of the plots, without I knew.

And that one that used my char's name was not a rival at all.  My char only had one "chatter" with him in time.  And there was no evil along that chatter.

You never know

[Akaramu]

Heh, what rival? That PC never did anything 'wrong' I know of and had no rivals I know of. Some sort of closure would have been VERY helpful.

Then clearly you were executed, and rightly so, for being too nice.  Playing a real character might be helpful in the future.

She was more real than you could even imagine. I dont play sock puppet characters, and she was not 'nice'. She just didnt mess with people.

I've had a Vivaduan who was very 'nice' by nature, and she was definitely real.

[Cenghiz]

C'mon... Nobody dictated you anything... They're just talking about the possibilities. If you don't want to be answered, don't post anyway.

[wizturbo]

She's still really upset about a dead character.  I don't think anything we say will be viewed positively.

[My 2 sids]

ROFL! This is actually true. I'm SUPER suspicious of nice people in Zalanthas, and I'm tempted to murder them quick before I find out they're "nice" sorcerors or mindbenders waiting to eat my children.

This kind of stuff makes absolutely no sense.  To derail this thread back to being about what your character would know, every character would probably know some nice people.  I think what players fail to understand, or maybe they just don't want to understand, is the difference between harsh and unbearable lives.  Just because life is hard doesn't mean people don't make friends, have relationships, have no faith in the system (If templars didn't actually provide some sort of justice, people would revolt.  That's WHY people revolt, as long as there is safety, they will withstand almost anything), people have birthdays they have parties, have fun.  Harsh doesn't mean people just hate each other and live isolated lives.  

The most over rated, non-realistic, cookie-cutter characters in this game are the ones that some how are only fake, never admitting to not knowing what to do/ being scared/ not understanding/ never actually amused at anything/ showing no actual emotion what-so-ever even via think command.

[Bogre]

Just because you don't know you have a rival doesn't mean you don't have one. Maybe someone figured out that you were selling all those obsidian longswords to the Templarate, and they wanted your job. Maybe you shouldn't have been flaunting that nice silk shirt. Perhaps spitting at that Wyvern with your northern elf...that might be a factor. Maybe someone in your clan wants to advance, but would rather create a power vacuum than work for it. Who knows, huh?

It kinda sucks if someone gets the drop on you, but then you gotta realize, you can always get the drop on somebody else with your next character.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I was being sarcastic.  It's impossible to have a character that at least somebody doesn't want to kill.  Owning a waterskin full of water is enough motive for someone to try to kill you.  If there isn't any reason for anybody at all to want you dead, then you're playing some imaginary game and you indeed lack a real character.  By the way, I'm certain that I could imagine it.

Just one more thing.  Don't stand up if you aren't prepared to be put back down.

[Akaramu]

I am starting to wonder how all the unclanned non-slave non-rinthi citizens even reach adulthood. Allanak should be losing population numbers within those ranks constantly with all the waterskins there are to kill for. But maybe its just me.

I dont mind being put back down in discussion, but you were not discussing with me. I'd love to, someday, if you happen to actually know one of my PCs. I'm always open to feedback.

As a final note, PLEASE STOP THE 'TEACH THE NEWBIE THE GAME IS HARSH' ramblings. I KNOW. I felt and tasted it for nearly 100 days played. I got people killed myself by pointing a finger at them. My point was really something else.

And all of this because of a remark about ONE templar I was dissatisfied with, Jesus, what have I started! I'm sorry.

[Quo]

I was being sarcastic. [...]
Just one more thing.  Don't stand up if you aren't prepared to be put back down.

Sarcastic you called yourself. Sarcazein - to tear flesh like dogs.
I don't think this board ist the place to "put (other contributers) back down". There's real human beings behind the other notes here, and their feelings are real, not virtual. It may please you to hurt their feelings, but I don't think it's helping anyone else.

wizturbo I think summed it up quite nicely, but why did this thread have to derail into player bashing?

Quo

[Forest Junkie]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

PENIS ENVY

Give the asshole a break, Quo.  :cry:

[wizturbo]

ROFL! This is actually true. I'm SUPER suspicious of nice people in Zalanthas, and I'm tempted to murder them quick before I find out they're "nice" sorcerors or mindbenders waiting to eat my children.

This kind of stuff makes absolutely no sense.  To derail this thread back to being about what your character would know, every character would probably know some nice people.

You misunderstood me.  My characters are not paranoid of nice people, just me as a player, I tend to wonder "I wonder what secret evil this seemingly nice fellow is hiding."

[mansa]

I, personally, like where this discussion is heading.  (Namely, because I objected for it to be archived right away)

It started out with a post about the hierarchy of the citystates, and how commoner characters should respect and fear the militia and the templarment.  Namely...things that you -should- know.

Then someone spoke about how people seem to have a backbone, so to say, and will fight back to the very last breath.  They will spit into the templars face and never give up.  I took it one step farther and called it the hero attribute.

Then it got shifted over to talk about how certain people always play the hero in this game o' fun called Armageddon.  That's alright, but it's not the well-rounded player that we should have for our 'goal' of this role-play/acting world that we live in.   People started saying how people would give up their character when their lives don't go the way they want them to.

Then someone switched back the subject about when it -is- a good time to retire a character, based off IC events.  It's good to retire when it's preventing you from logging in because it's like sticking forks in your eyes every time.

Then it slipped over to talk about how templars are pretty good role-players already, and they know the IC/OOC events that they cause, and how they aren't meant to PK people.  The templarment knows this.  They know that if they just went around killing everybody then there won't be anybody to play with.

Then it shifted over to talk about how someone died, and then we pounced on them because of one statement the victim said, which was, 'I don't understand why they killed me, I was so very nice!'

We started talking more about how some people are crazy in this game, and will be an enemy to you because of the wrong colour shoes you wear, (As Xamminy said)  We started to say that some people will -hate- your character for no reason or visible justification.

Then we slipped into talk about PKing and other stuff.  And people started saying snide comments and it's turning into something that should be locked down.  But I'd like to make one last comment.

I read a book by Frank Herbert, called The Dosadi Experiment.  I invision the planet where the Dosadi Experiment is being run to be the city of Allanak.  A million or more people in a tiny tiny space, where people are all crammed into tiny tiny rooms.  To have a space the size of a bachleor apartment would prove that you're a rich mofo, the city is so jammed pack.  I believe that when a population is suppressed, the citizens have to put out their angst in some form of energy, be that in riots, in wars, or in sex.  So, there is a lot of sex and baby makin' in Allanak.  Only the strongest and smartest survive the horrors of the black city.  Final Thought.

[Akaramu]

Then it shifted over to talk about how someone died, and then we pounced on them because of one statement the victim said, which was, 'I don't understand why they killed me, I was so very nice!'

I resent that statement. My character was NOT NICE, nor did I consider myself a 'victim'. I was simply very dissatisfied with the OOC aspects of how something was handled by one templar. It is also frustrating to die totally out of the blue, within a city, without awareness of having broken any law, having pissed anyone off, and without the simplest clue why. I KNOW this is how it often goes, but it is still frustrating. With my other character deaths, I could at least see the why.

I'd like to encourage any potential killer to, if it is at all possible, throw the victim a bone before killing them. No need to reveal the story or plot behind their death, just a bone, maybe a short whisper before slitting their throat, so they wontnt have time to possibly tell anyone about it.

It might very much help the player feel their PC died to a reason, as opposed to total randomness or something their killer's player was OOCly pissed about.

[sarahjc]

I don't think Mansa's post was about you Akaramu..  I am pretty sure that he was just summing up a very long thread that covered a wide range of topics.  You were no more pointed out than anyone else in this thread, if you were fingered at all.

As for the rest, I think there was some good stuff here. I read through most of this. I think there should definitely be more fear about the big wigs in either city, and yeah.. they should be able to do what they want and that is why they should be feared.  Nor do I think that they really need to tell you why they have singled you out, I mean, do they really need to answer to your common filth PC?

However we don't see a lot of what the allanaki templars do, and we don't hear about it all that much either. I can think of one templar in recent history  that people were dead afraid of.. and why??

Cause he let some of his maiming victims go and he also lived a very long time. So he had a lot of victims.

I mean OK, you have a really good RP'er playing a templar.. a nasty son of a bitch templar, or just someone completely fucked in the head. . And now you have the rest of the player base.

I think that the people who spit in the face of the man tearing off your am are ridiculous.. You are not all William Wallis that will shout freedom on the executioners table as they cut out your entrails..   It's just not realistic.   And the worst thing I think is the people that either :

1. Don't Rp out the wounds that they receive properly
2. Retire the PC or suicide the PC right after, cause now you are never gonna get laid by that hot little F-me with only one hand.
3. Don't talk about what happened to them.

I don't think the problem is that the Templars aren't doing a kick ass job, at least the old ones did, I can't speak about the newer ones.  But that the players just don't show the fear and resentment that they should. Which is why I am all supporting of the original post.  People should not only know that they -should- be afraid, but live out why they -are- afraid.