Reconciling character concept and stats

[Dan]

I think anything that puts more ephasis on stats rather than rp ought to be -very- carefully examined and thought about before it goes into the game. Im against changing things as they are now.

It's not about emphasizing stats. It's about integrating them with your character concept to present a more consistent persona to the world.

[wizturbo]

Its one choice, made at the beginning of your character, and thats it.  No emphasis, just a simple choice that most RPG's offer players so they're character's attributes are aligned with their concept of what the character is good or bad at.

[Agent_137]

I agree with witz, I like his idea.

But bottom line, I want SOME way, any way, to align my character with my stats. I've had a warrior who had more agility than strength, which is really fine for a warrior, but I had included in his sdesc the adjective BURLY.

This is a problem! He's not burly! He's agile! Crap!

It would have been great had I been able to peg the order of stats, or even my top two stats. I want my highest roll to be strength, because he's burly! And then the mud rolls as it normally would, assigns the best roll to strength, and viola`, good to go.

Instead, I'm going to email the mud account and see what they want me to do.

Granted, it's playable to have a BURLY character who's actually more agile than strong, but it's also just plain dumb. Granted I can ignore the stat discrepancy, but wouldn't it just make more sense for it to be more aligned with my player concept?

[Sir Diealot]

I guess I just don't understand there the 'no control' people come from.  

I'm sorry, but my char. background focus on my char's goals and life which are affected by HARD-CODED things like Race, Age, Guild, SubGuild, and yes, even STATS.  In real life, if you were a star athlete, who could slam a football through a solid steel wall with his pinky, would you be spending time on the GDB bitching about Rp and twink potential ? I don't think so.  

So,  when I write up a BG for a character, and I make him an absolute meat-head, who's slow to pick things up, and strong as an Ox, I don't want him to come in with AI wis, and Poor strength.  If I make an urchin character who's sickly, and has survived simply by the nibleness of his body, I don't wanna see Good Endurance, and b.average agility. It's just /logic/, hard-coded-things-matter. Get it through your skull.  Otherwise there'd be no point in having anything, from Race to Endurance coded, and this would be a Talker.

Now, as an alternative suggestion for stat-ordering, how about Wiz-set stat ordering ? You know..the guy who approves you notes that. .HEY! this guy's a nimble, sickly thief.. lets pop him down with his highest (Still random) stat being Agi, and his lowest (STILL FUCKING RANDOM) stat being End.  It'd take literally 2 seconds of the wiz's time, if they'd read your BG like they were supposed to.

I agree...you can't divorce character concept from stats if you want to play an integrated character. Since there's no twinking potential, I don't see any reason not to allow players to do their own stat ordering in the Hall of Kings. If they choose not to, it will be random. Otherwise, it's a simple 5-second command.

[Sir Diealot]

Must be our naturally heigthened Dallas intelligence *is actually from Arlington but..whatever.*

[Delirium]

Maybe he's really smart, but only when it comes to athletic type feats, and he's still really stupid when it comes to everyday stuff. That can be easily roleplayed.

Maybe he's a total musclehead, but he got into a nasty tussle with a raptor that sliced the muscles of his left arm open and so he hasn't been able to handle half as much weight as he used to ever since.

Who knows.. there's always ways around it if you're creative enough.

I like the fact that stats are unpredictable.. one character had really bad endurance, so I decided to throw in a disease with her concept that added an interesting quirk to roleplay.

Some really skinny kids are strong as hell, just wiry muscle and sinew and no fat - it's not that hard to play off somehow.

Don't describe stats at all in your background and you'll be even better off.

I don't really see a problem with a complete ordering of stats, where you decide before you get the stats what order they go into. The stats are still random of course.  But then again most people would probably be trying to always pick the optimal ordering for race/class.

Maybe they could make it such that you get to pick one stat such that its always in the upper half of your stat rolls.

Prime Stat:
"tough" = con
"smart" = wis
"strong" = str
"quick" = dex

Say you roll a poor, below ave, good, extremely good

and you had picked con to be prime stat, and you rolled poor, then it would switch that stat with good from str stat.

If the stat is already in the top half then it does nothing. Jst make it so that what you feel is the primary stat of your PC is never on the bottom half basically.

Its hard to write a description at times where you don't mention anything that might be reflected with stats.

[Larrath]

Not every warrior has to be strong.   A warrior with high wisdom and endurance might be, realistically, very capable of beating a stronger and faster man, and the same goes for anyone else.

You are weak but smart?  Taunt the other knucklehead, make them do mistakes, use their power against them, whatever.  You're weak but very dexterous?  Fight like an acrobat, make all these fancy rolls and backflips while throwing knives and poking people with sticks.

Stats matter, but not all that much.  If your character, who has really poor dexterity, has been practicing climbing every day for the past two RL months, they will be far better than an elven burglar/acrobat with AI dex and one week of training, and the same goes for combat.

Everyone has disadvantages, just try to play around them, even (and especially) when they are something so significant in your character's lifestyle.

It's not about every warrior being strong. It's about creating the kind of character you actually want to play.

[Agent_137]

Its hard to write a description at times where you don't mention anything that might be reflected with stats.

It's not just hard, it's plain silly. You end up with all these people with outrageous hair and eyes but a non-descript body.

I mean, really, walnut-eyed?

:wink:

[JollyGreenGiant]

It's not about every warrior being strong. It's about creating the kind of character you actually want to play.

And yet, if any kind of stat ordering is allowed, how many warriors will select "wisdom" as their primary stat?  Random stats are about diversity.  Any form of stat ordering only destroys the dynamic.

Its hard to write a description at times where you don't mention anything that might be reflected with stats.

First, I just flat disagree with this statement.  Write a one-paragraph description of the next person you see, then hand it to a friend and ask them to tell you how much they think the person can bench based on your description.  Better still, hand it to five friends, and get a range of opinions.  Now ask them how good you think the person's reflexes are, what their IQ is, and how many miles they can carry a forty-pound rucksack.

Second, appearances are deceptive.  In my college days, I knew a guy, skinny as a twig, but he could punch through an inch of solid wood.  I've seen people who looked hamfisted that were extremely dexterous.  And so on.

Third, let's say we have ordered stats, and you pick strength as your primary, and write up your nice description of a hulking brute of a bodybuilder.  Then you end up, after a roll and a reroll, with a "good" strength.  The point being, even with some kind of ordered stat system, your best may not fit your idea of what you wanted for your character.

You'll find as much variety as you currently find in the character descriptions. Some people are brawny, some are lithe, some are keen-eyed, and some are thickly built. Even for a twink, there is no clear advantage to a given stat. They are all important for character development. I think there would be plenty of diversity.

At least with an ordered stat system you can get closer to your character concept than would otherwise be the case.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think there would be plenty of diversity.

I've been playing muds for well over a decade now.  Three guesses how many times I've seen a warrior that didn't have a prime stat of strength whenever there is an ordered stat system, a build-your-stat system, or anything that gives players control over how stats are distributed, whether the mud is h'n's, rp, or any combination thereof.

I can count the number of times on one hand.  You give people any kind of control, and they invariably min-max.

[Forest Junkie]

Just play with what you roll. Stats -do- matter to a large extent, but I see know reason why we should be given a chance to roll good strength everytime because we place a higher priority on such. Just play the game, and deal with the issue. It all usually balances out in the end, if you live a long life.

[Delirium]

I think there would be plenty of diversity.

I've been playing muds for well over a decade now.  Three guesses how many times I've seen a warrior that didn't have a prime stat of strength whenever there is an ordered stat system, a build-your-stat system, or anything that gives players control over how stats are distributed, whether the mud is h'n's, rp, or any combination thereof.

I can count the number of times on one hand.  You give people any kind of control, and they invariably min-max.

Yep.

[Gorobei]

Strength is dumb.  Wisdom and agility, all the way.
My point is, everyone has a different idea of what makes the best character (and that's if they really want to min/max).  If you play Diablo II, as an example, there can be 8 different sorceresses in a game and each of them will have a different specialty spell.

I also have another point.  There are plenty of half-elves in the game, and I don't think that there's a single solitary advantage that someone could use while playing them.  I don't think that there're -that- many people who think they can 'ride' their way to the top.  
Our player base is a nice thing.  We can be trusted to attempt to make our characters fit themselves better, and not to simply try to make our characters the most powerful creatures in the game.

[Agent_137]

enter soapbox
>A very animated human steps up on a soapbox.


of course, the more control you give the player the more potential for abuse.

Hell, in most other muds i've played, you can't emote anything. You were restricted to certain verbs.

Not here.

Why? A good intelligent playerbase interested in roleplay. I'm tired of seeing people knock down great ideas just because "it can be abused." Well, emote can be abused, take it away. Subdue can be abused. Take it away. Templar powers can be abused, don't let players play them.

Psssha!

Give us an ordered stat system and you won't see every warrior all of a sudden looking brawny and actually being brawny. You'll see the same assortment as before, but the code will actually MATCH the description. And people will no longer be FRUSTRATED in creating the character they want.

I don't want to have to avoid making my character look strong or lithe. Hell, maybe I want to have a scrawny guy with compact but strong muscles. If i want it, I can get that with a ordered stat system. Currently, though, I just MIGHT end up with it, regardless if i want it or not.

Now I don't care how it's done, whether the immortals add it, or if I pick one stat that I want as my primary, or i can swap them, or whatever! I just want to have a acrobat with good agility!

It's absurd to pick your guild/subclass before you get your stats. How the heck would some one grow up gaining the skills of an acrobat with shitty agility? Of course, you COULD develop a backstory for it, but you wouldn't know you had to until AFTER you already got your app confirmed!

If the app is approved, let my stats match! It's approved! If the immortal says, "Hey, yea, you can have that strong but slow warrior." Then, damnit, I can have it. If I end up with a fast but weak warrior, then it's not what i frikken applied for.

Put the power in the hands of the players and the immortals. Take the power from the random numbers. Trust your fellow players, because they have proven themselves worthy.


leave
>A very animated human steps down from the soapbox.

[grog]

I like the way it is now, but I think the idea of rolling your stats as the last thing you see before submitting your app isn't a bad idea.  You click on submit, it rolls stats, then asks if you want to add a note to the application.  So you can say something like "Given that my l33t warrior has a poor strength and below average agility, I'd like you replace all the burly and/ lithe words in my sdesc to scrawny and/or bullish."


It would still prevent people from creating characters till they get the 'perfect stats' but allow them to ask for modifications before the character get's inserted into the game. (so they can 'fit' their stats)

Or even make it so they submit two, one before they get stats, then a modification app, if they want one.  So the immortals can make sure he just isn't trying to min/max.

[jstorrie]

Reconciling your character concept with your rolled stats by modifying your character concept strikes me as a much better idea.

There's more than one way to be strong, agile, wise, or, uh, endury.

I consider myself pretty agile when it comes to hand-to-eye coordination, for example, but I can't do backflips and I'm a horrible dancer.

I have plenty of friends who are very clever, but make stupid life decisions.

If your warrior is burly, but has low strength, think up an explanation for it.  If you're here, you're probably pretty imaginative already, I hope.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, my problem is only that you create a character that looks like Arnold, but has the physical stats of Woody Allen.  I don't give a shit about background, I just care about the character's appearance.  No matter how screwed up the character has gotten, if they still look like Arnold, the strength has to be up there.  A raptor sliced arm...well, that only affects that one arm...not legs and torso, so he should still be able to carry a bunch of crap in his backpack, or other arm, so he should still be able to smack someone something fierce with one of his two weapons.

I don't care if my warrior has a high strength (as I would prefer two other stats higher as Gorobei said) or if it all meshes with my background, but I want the appearance and stats to match.

I like the idea that grog just revoiced (as it was basically suggested already in a different form) is a way to easily change the description after seeing your stats.

[sacac]

how about.. you don't make a desc with "This person looks one built from a rock with pure strength" and just generalize that sort of thing?

[Forest Junkie]

How about we all stop complaining and play the fucking game.

So what if your description does not match your stats you rolled. DEAL WITH IT.

[EvilRoeSlade]

How about we all stop complaining and play the fucking game.

So what if your description does not match your stats you rolled. DEAL WITH IT.