Reconciling character concept and stats

[jhunter]

As I said...it would allow people to order them and cut down the drawbacks from racial weaknesses on average...there is where it would be unbalancing. Also, as someone else said it would be possible to use it to counteract differences from aging. Those diferences are there for a reason.
Basically giving every elf pc higher than average for their race strength, every half-giant pc higher than average agility or wisdom, every dwarf higher than average agility or wisdom.
When your just talking about humans stat ordering doesn't make much difference (unless aging is concerned) but demihumans it would make a difference.

This would raise the overall average stats of demihumans, we'd start seeing smarter, slightly faster hgs and dwarves along with their higher strength and endurance, more elves walking around in heavier armor to go along with their agility bonuses.

It would throw things out of balance where the demihumans are concerned, any way you slice it.

No matter what the case, if any changes were made I hope an option to do it the way it is is left in,(As that is the way I like most) that being said...if there were some sort of ordering option...I'd hope there would be penalties to it...I think both no reroll for that option -and- a cap as to how high of stats you can get you be imposed upon such a choice.

You have to give something to get something IMHO.

I have to chime in again, because the lack of logic is driving me nuts.

Jhunter complains that the suggestion would "allow people to order them and cut down the drawbacks from racial weaknesses on average".

1. You do realize that for those that don't emphasize the natural strengths of their race, there is a downside right? Those half-giant pcs with above average wisdom will also have below average strength. There is an inherent balance in the system being proposed here. It is not the one-sided problem you continue to claim it is.

2. It is a non sequitur that everyone will choose to "compensate for their racial weaknesses". An equally strong argument could be made that everyone will choose to "emphasize their racial strengths". Why are you assuming that the former is better than the latter?

3. As several people have eloquently stated, this is simply a suggestion allowing us as players to create and roleplay the characters we want to be in the game. It has nothing to do with minmaxing (and is in fact immune to such a criticism) and everything to do with roleplaying.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Give up the reroll. The stat ordering is good enough.

The Hall of Kings
Here is a dreary hall full of shit. The walls are stone,
the floor is stone, there's whispering things, blah blah
blah blah blahb labh.
Some dweeb with no life waits here endlessly to mark
your body up with painful scars and other stuff.

>point allanak
Assign your stats first. The syntax is
"stats <atrib> <atrib> <atrib> <atrib>". Your highest
stat will be assigned to the first choice, and your
lowest to the last choice.The four attributes are:
strength, agility, wisdom, and endurance. Be thoughtful,
as there is no reroll and no reassignment of stats.

>stat strength wisdom endurance agility
Your strength is absolutely incredible, your agility is
absolutely incredible, your wisdom is absolutely incredible,
and your endurance is absolutely incredible.

>think WTF?
You think: "WTF?"

>sc
You are Donovan, of the Pimps of Zalanthas.
Sdesc: the slim, chocolate-skinned hunk
Objective: To marry a good South Carolina girl..
Long Description:
Code Generated Long Description.

You are 24 years, 10 months, and 23 days old,
which by your race and appearance is young.
You are 72 inches tall, and weigh 8 ten-stone.
Your strength is absolutely incredible, your agility is absolutely incredible,
your wisdom is absolutely incredible, and your endurance is is absolutely incredible.
You are neither hungry nor thirsty.
Your health is 1000(1000), you have 1000(1000) stamina, and 1000(1000) stun.

You have been playing for 0 days and 0 hours.
You are standing.
You are currently speaking sirihish.

>think WTF?
You think: "WTF?"

Heh. Sorry.

[Cenghiz]

QUICK gimme yer password!.... mine! mine!!!! I want that!!!

Lol Venomz  

[Delirium]

ITS NOT IN THE FUCKING BACKGROUND. there fore, you're playing something /not/ in the background, and that's bad ICly.

Excuse me while I go straightjacket my character into a single short paragraph of personality and experiences.  :roll:

I added that little tidbit within the first hour of play, as I do most of my characters' quirks and habits. I like to flesh out my characters as I play them. As long as I stay true to their concepts and background, what's wrong with that?

[jhunter]

Xerin, your arguement to my point only holds water -if- they get some below average stats to balance it out...if not, (which, from what I've seen is about as common as really high ones) then it will certainly create unbalance as far as the average demi-human stats.

There is -no- arguement to this...it will happen...yes...you could go with your racial benefits and increase them further...but there would be nothing to stop people from going other way which would raise the over all average of the weaker stats of the demihuman pcs, therefore unbalancing things.

Take off your blinders for a moment, look at how they -can- be done...Xerin your assumption is that noone will twink out with this...that's all find and dandy in Mr. Happy Fun Bunnyland, but in reality that's simply not the case...someone always does.

[Bestatte]

Unclear on the concept:

You have: average, above average, good, and very good stats.

As everyone knows, average is the least desireable of the lot, the one people would -normally- reroll for anyway if it showed up in a "needed" or "appropriate" stat placement.

So - instead of rerolling and possibly getting stuck with even worse in that stat - you switch the average wisdom for your good agility. You now have only average agility, but you have the good wisdom.

If you're a magicker, this would definitely come in handy because a magicker with really sucky wisdom is probably gonna die or get whacked long before the stats cease to matter.

If you're a dwarf, it'll definitely come in handy because instead of spending 2 game-days trying to contact the guy you can see who is logged in in the next room, to warn him about the elf pulling shit out of his pockets, he'll at least now have a passing chance to get the guy's mind in the 3rd or 4th or 5th try without passing out first. His agility won't be very good - if he's a thief he might not want to make this switch. But at least now he has the opportunity to make his character behave, code-wise, how his character was approved, immwise.

It's a tradeoff. When you exchange one stat with the other, it's because you are willing to LOSE something in one place in order to gain somewhere else. And if you're dealing with "good good very good very good" it's not gonna matter all that much, because you're already miles above anyone else with mostly "average" or "better than average."

Xerin, your arguement to my point only holds water -if- they get some below average stats to balance it out...if not, (which, from what I've seen is about as common as really high ones) then it will certainly create unbalance as far as the average demi-human stats.

There is -no- arguement to this...it will happen...yes...you could go with your racial benefits and increase them further...but there would be nothing to stop people from going other way which would raise the over all average of the weaker stats of the demihuman pcs, therefore unbalancing things.

Take off your blinders for a moment, look at how they -can- be done...Xerin your assumption is that noone will twink out with this...that's all find and dandy in Mr. Happy Fun Bunnyland, but in reality that's simply not the case...someone always does.

[X-D]

There is simply too many people to quote here, but, lets get started.

First, I am against stat ordering of any sort, I only even thing the reroll option is alright because it may help cut down stat suicides.

There have been people that have written good arguements on why stat ordering is bad, mainly because you can upset what balance we have and currently, the balance IS the randomness.

1. You do realize that for those that don't emphasize the natural strengths of their race, there is a downside right? Those half-giant pcs with above average wisdom will also have below average strength. There is an inherent balance in the system being proposed here. It is not the one-sided problem you continue to claim it is.

Heh, look man, a half-giant with POOR strength is still stronger then AI for any other race, he would not notice it at all, and every single player would put either wis first or agi...if they have played a HG before, probly AGI.
And the balance would be upset...course, it would give more half-giants a fighting chance, but at the same time people would complain again about too many powerful half-giants or somesuch. I get a kick out of people talking about logic blah blah, fact is, there is a current balance between pc's and between pc's and npc's, stat ordering would cause that to change, meaning that the staff would have to work thier asses off buffing npcs back up to a level of challenge, WHICH would put pretty much everybody back to exactly as they are now...well, except people who did get all round poor stat rolls would be in even worse shape and the rate of stat suicide would likly go up.

The balance as it stands IS that you have to play around the racial stats, funny thing is, stat ordering would only really help non-human's...chuckle.

Also, somebody, bestatte I think said something about low stats, though stats -do- matter, they are not the end all, a magicker with below ave or poor wis is NOT helpless, Oh, far from it, as anybody who has played a dwarf or HG magicker knows, but it does change the manner in which the char has to be played.

As far as the ones that look old and weak and have great stats...I'm sure the staff would have less of a problem lowering stats then raising.

Jhunter, again you're completely missing the point. Maybe Bestatte is more clear for you. I've said it as many ways as I can.

X-D, to your point: yes a half-giant with poor strength is stronger than most characters in the game. Obviously then, an AI strength for a half-giant would be phenomenal. I don't agree there is an asymptotic effect where stats are concerned: that extra strength for the half-giant absolutely pays off. And I think many would prefer the route of capitalizing on strengths rather than buttressing weaknesses. That certainly has been my approach in most roleplaying games I've played. More importantly, the point is that YOU should be able to decide what character concept you find most appealing.

[jhunter]

I'm not missing shit.

X-D just said basically what I'm trying to say.

A half-giant sure isn't going to miss the trade off in a little strength for the increase in it's weaknesses when compared to a non-hg pc...the same would go for an elf trading off for higher strength at having his agility a bit lower for his race.

A human it woudn't make any difference since they are the middle ground.

I completely understand what you guys are saying is intended to do, that however is not my point..you can have the best inentions on the face of the planet but it's not going to stop someone else from throwing things out of balance by doing such.

It's the equivalent of the level caps in 2nd edition D&D for demihumans...when those are removed...why play a human when you can get some stat modifiers and make up the negatives by placing your stats carefully? Every time in my experience that this happened...humans disappeared because there are plenty of people that love to start with a stat advantage as to no statistical advantage. Yes, some people would just focus on the strengths...then you have the problem of every demihuman pc being exceptional in that regard...

...again..I think Xerin and Bestatte are not reading what I'm saying and are entirely missing -MY- point.

Again, I don't think I'm missing shit...I believe you are so focused on the positives of this idea your are blatantly ignoring the fact that, as X-D said...the randomness is the balancing factor when it comes to the demihumans.

So what a lot of ppl are saying is that they don't want background and description to have any bearing on what stats you get. They say just go with it Rp with it.

Well you know that the class and subguild you pick are usually determined by your background at least. So if it can pick your skills which are very important, then why not the ORDER of your attributes.

Shit, let's just have the guild and subguild return random skills and spells. Then people can say just RP it. I don't care if you have burglar skills and you wanted to be a warrior.

[SpyGuy]

The biggest problem I've seen addressed (and I dont feel like reading 9 pages of this stuff to see if its addressed) is that code isnt designed to support this.  Its not a matter of just rearranging stats, because not all stats are on a set point or percentage basis.

If a HG with 10% or 70% strength has 30 actual "stat points" of difference while with 10% or 70% AGI its only 10 points, take the 10% for AGI because overall your losing alot more strength than you are agility as far as coded effect in the game.

This just would lead to min/maxing for people who know the game well and would leave noobs clueless.  I hate that you cant pick your favored stat, but beyond picking maybe your highest stat I dont think ordering should be implemented.

I believe it's already calculated on a relative basis. That is, a half-giant is just as likely to get an AI strength as to get an AI wisdom, agility, or endurance.

[jhunter]

Yep, and more likely to get that AI wis if you can order them.

Jhunter, if you want to keep repeating the same point at least address what I have to say about it. Tell me why there would be an asymptotic effect. A half-giant with AI strength is a hell of a lot stronger than a half-giant with poor strength, and the effects of that are obvious in the game.

[X-D]

em nods to jhunter.

Also

X-D, to your point: yes a half-giant with poor strength is stronger than most characters in the game. Obviously then, an AI strength for a half-giant would be phenomenal. I don't agree there is an asymptotic effect where stats are concerned: that extra strength for the half-giant absolutely pays off. And I think many would prefer the route of capitalizing on strengths rather than buttressing weaknesses. That certainly has been my approach in most roleplaying games I've played. More importantly, the point is that YOU should be able to decide what character concept you find most appealing.

There is a huge difference in min and max strength of a HG, but, it is basicly not noticable to them or others for that matter, except by how much extra stuff they can carry arround. Combat wise, frightening damage is frightening damage...actually, I'd go for lower strength myself, if I got to choose, break fewer expensive weapons that way. As to the bolded part of the quote...Heh, no, half-giant with poor strength is stronger then ALL pc races.

Also, people talk about backrounds...I think they need to rethink backround writing a bit maybe leave them a bit more open.

And playing the pc you invision, well, I say, MAKE them that pc through your play, and if there was stat ordering, you can bet your ass every assassin would have an uber ninja backround, every warrior would have a hulk backround, etc.

The person throwing out the random skills part, come now, I really hope you were just being sarcastic or something.

I'm also not missing anything, but I -DO- understand how game balance works and why it has to be there and the total random nature of stats for a race is part of that balance. And why we have guilds with set skills and why there are subguilds to help randomize that some without completly destroying the balance.


Plus, it would leave the players that know more with a much greater advantage over newbies, destroying yet another form of balance.

[buzz]

Stat ordering will never happen because some races obviously have different stat ranges for each attribute.  So you can't just roll four times and assign them in order.  For example, these numbers are made up ... A half-giant's strength ranges from 20 to 50, his agility from 5 to 15, wisdom from 7 to 14, and endurance from 18 to 26.   Where the hell are you going to roll and assign based on those ranges?  Never going to happen.  I imagine no one's considering that it's a lot harder than just "roll and assign based on priority" because you have no idea what's going on in the code (nor do I.)  For the same reason, you can't just switch a good str for a vg agi on a half giant either, because then your 30 str and 12 agi becomes 12 str and 30 agi, which makes no sense whatsoever for a HG.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with the way it works now.  Either don't desc your character with bulging muscles, or just explain it a different way in the game.  Be imaginative.  Be inventive.  Don't be locked into your desc.  Live long enough and your desc at 20 won't make sense at 40 anyway.

I believe there's an easy fix for that concern. A half-giant has the same distribution for each stat, when you look at the labels. That is, he is as likely to get a poor strength as to get a poor wisdom, agility, or endurance. It's a simple matter of translating between the four stats. Whatever the numerical conversion is, you make it so the poor that was originally in strength is now a poor in agility (assuming that is how the player ordered it).

[X-D]

Oh, to this.

Jhunter, if you want to keep repeating the same point at least address what I have to say about it. Tell me why there would be an asymptotic effect. A half-giant with AI strength is a hell of a lot stronger than a half-giant with poor strength, and the effects of that are obvious in the game.

No, they really are not, at least not for that stat...my last half-giant had poor strength, and in the heaviest gear in the game plus carrying a huge amount of other items his enc was at no problem, and I doubt the half-giants he sparred against noticed any less damage as they took frightenings with a sparring club and thier armor got destroyed, no, for that race, every player probly wishes for one thing, More agi:).

On an elf, most would gladly trade agi or wis for strength.
I'll not go through and explain the rest of the races, but the point is...well, play what you are given, having a char with great stats, well, I've had em, and really, it's too damm easy sometimes, at least I get bored quicker.

Matter of fact, we already have some stat ordering, even for non-karma players, and that is the races you can choose from. If you want a burly kinda dumb slow warrior, take a dwarf, if you want him quick and smart, take an elf, middle of the road, take a human, then between human and elf is half-elf. Stats can also be somewhat manipulated by the starting age of your char. To my thinking, one already has plenty of control of the stats of his/her char and I see no need for more.

[SpyGuy]

Buzz made my point beautifully.  Ain't gonna happen.

[Quirk]

X-D, to your point: yes a half-giant with poor strength is stronger than most characters in the game. Obviously then, an AI strength for a half-giant would be phenomenal. I don't agree there is an asymptotic effect where stats are concerned: that extra strength for the half-giant absolutely pays off.

Uh, not really. I've played the half-giant warrior with the fabulous agility and the poor strength - and the strength being poor is a complete non-issue. Being able to demolish your foe in two hits instead of three is a rather lesser advantage than getting all those hits in in a short space of time and avoiding taking too much damage doing so.

Anyway, a couple of points. Firstly, I think a lot of people are missing the point of a character concept. Character concepts address your character's personality, and what he has been doing for a living. The former is unaffected by stats, save perhaps wisdom, which I see few people taking into account save in the instances of strong racial differences. The latter is handled by your guild, which I believe has some input into stat generation anyway and affects the "smart folk go into business, strong ones go into war" debate. Stats are meaningless in the character concept framework.

Secondly, the people who've posted saying it'll screw with the age-related and race-related modifiers are entirely right. To a large extent you can get the stats you want by selecting age and race carefully. Beyond that - well, I'd rather have the exceptions handed out randomly than letting everyone play that exceptionally agile half-giant.

Quirk

[Angela Christine]

There are already several ways to affect your stats to suit your character concept:

1) Race.  The racial modifiers are obvious from the racial descriptions.

2) Age.  Again, the descriptions are pretty clear.  Young people tend to get the best agility, middling aged people get the best strength and endurance, and old people get the best wisdom.

3) Size.  In general small people get better agility while large people get better strength and endurance (which may explain why you'll occasionally see a character described as slender and dainty, but when you assess -v them they are a massive hulk).

If you want good agility, and you don't want any social penalties from elven blood, then you make a young, small character.  It isn't an iron-clad gaurntee, but characters that are young and small usually have above average agility.  Obviously your background and description should support your youth and tinyness.  If you live long enough to get old your agility will go down, but that's life.

If you want to be strong, then don't be an under-nourished, petite 15 year old, or an elf.

No muss no fuss.


I find it a little deceptive that this topic is in roleplaying discussion rather than code discussion, since this discussion isn't about how to roleplay a chracter with unexpected stats, but rather a proposed code change to prevent unexpected stats.  Any attempt to help reconcile the descrepency through roleplay, such as ideas of ways to explain low strength despite hulking muscle, gets shot down.  This isn't about roleplay, it is about code.

There is no point arguing this forever here though.  Armageddon isn't a democracy, even if you convinced ALL the players that your idea had merit, that still wouldn't mean diddly.  If you still like the idea, take the feedback you've gotten here to refine your idea, and then post to Ask the Staff, or better yet write up a proposal and send it to mud@armageddon.org to get it in the hands of the people who actually make the decisions.  I doubt many staff have read the last 9 pages of bickering.


AC

When I started the thread, I had no intention of getting into a code discussion. But as we moved forward with the topic, that was the direction that made the most sense to me. To those who say just to ignore the discrepancy, or to let the game define your character, I will respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

[Candi]

Choosing where your rolls go...which stat is best and which is worst...that's not going to mess the balance of the game any more than dumb luck can.   You can get the EXACT same stats with a roll...the only difference is that the ones that you can allocate will be appropriate to your character as you see fit.   Crappy luck, Superb luck...those things screw with the balance of the game more than someone's individual customization Ever could.