Reconciling character concept and stats

I've been playing muds for well over a decade now.  Three guesses how many times I've seen a warrior that didn't have a prime stat of strength whenever there is an ordered stat system, a build-your-stat system, or anything that gives players control over how stats are distributed, whether the mud is h'n's, rp, or any combination thereof.

I can count the number of times on one hand.  You give people any kind of control, and they invariably min-max.

1. The population that plays Armageddon is worlds apart from any other mud population I've seen. If you're not into roleplaying, you won't be with Arm for long. We have a higher standard here, and can't be compared to the hack-and-slash populations.

2. Stats don't work the same in Armageddon as in most other games. A strong argument could be made that your "strong warrior" should instead go for wisdom, because he is going to learn far faster and therefore increase his skills more quickly. Or for agility because he will hit far more often. Or for endurance because he will last much longer in combat. The min-maxer has no solution where Arm stats are concerned. It is a matter of preference instead.

3. In a character-driven game like Armageddon, it should be possible to create the character you want instead of having it randomly determined.

[EvilRoeSlade]

1. The population that plays Armageddon is worlds apart from any other mud population I've seen. If you're not into roleplaying, you won't be with Arm for long. We have a higher standard here, and can't be compared to the hack-and-slash populations.

I'm a player with seven karma, and yet when I play D&D I always max out my stats.  I just can't help myself.  The fact is, it's fun to max out your stats.  It doesn't mean you're a bad person.  It's simply behavior that should never be encouraged or supported on Armageddon.

2. Stats don't work the same in Armageddon as in most other games. A strong argument could be made that your "strong warrior" should instead go for wisdom, because he is going to learn far faster and therefore increase his skills more quickly. Or for agility because he will hit far more often. Or for endurance because he will last much longer in combat. The min-maxer has no solution where Arm stats are concerned. It is a matter of preference instead.

There I disagree completely, though I don't think it would be right to elaborate.

3. In a character-driven game like Armageddon, it should be possible to create the character you want instead of having it randomly determined.

It's more RP driven than character driven.  Stats should be given the attention that they deserve.  And as it happens, they are nearly irrelevant.

[Delirium]

1. The population that plays Armageddon is worlds apart from any other mud population I've seen. If you're not into roleplaying, you won't be with Arm for long. We have a higher standard here, and can't be compared to the hack-and-slash populations.

Not to say you aren't right, but just because Armageddon has a higher standard of roleplay doesn't mean that people won't take advantage of every inch they're given.

I've seen RPIs where you can arrange the priority of your stats, and trust me, even the most stellar RPers will almost always opt to min-max. It's just a basic human urge to have the best stats possible for your character. I'd rather it not be possible at all here.

I'm a player with seven karma, and yet when I play D&D I always max out my stats.

Do you twink in Armageddon? Didn't think so. It's because Armageddon isn't D&D and you, like the large majority of everyone else that plays this game, understand and honor the difference.

There I disagree completely, though I don't think it would be right to elaborate.

You're welcome to disagree, but the fact there is disagreement at all begs the question. I've seen what a difference agility, endurance, and wisdom can make in this game. It's far from a no-brainer that a warrior would always go with strength as the primary stat.

It's more RP driven than character driven. Stats should be given the attention that they deserve. And as it happens, they are nearly irrelevant.

As has been pointed out again and again in this thread, stats are NOT irrelevant. If you disagree, you need to take a basic stats class. If two variables independently predict a third variable, they are BOTH significantly correlated. That skills play a role in performance in no way undermines the critical role that stats play as well.

[2lz2jhunter]

I like the way it is now, but I think the idea of rolling your stats as the last thing you see before submitting your app isn't a bad idea. You click on submit, it rolls stats, then asks if you want to add a note to the application. So you can say something like "Given that my l33t warrior has a poor strength and below average agility, I'd like you replace all the burly and/ lithe words in my sdesc to scrawny and/or bullish."


It would still prevent people from creating characters till they get the 'perfect stats' but allow them to ask for modifications before the character get's inserted into the game. (so they can 'fit' their stats)

I agree, if something were to change about it...I'd much rather see it go in the reverse order...your pc's desc changes slightly to fit the stats...not changing the stats.

Personally, I still don't think it's that important...and I think some people are a bit too fixated on stats, IMHO.

I like things fine the way they are.

Your character concept should be determined by who you would enjoy roleplaying rather than by a random roll of the dice. Roleplaying is about creating a character and bringing that character to life. The design would reinforce that better if we could predetermine stat order.

[Forest Junkie]

Your character concept should be determined by who you would enjoy roleplaying rather than by a random roll of the dice.

You have never played D&D have you? You're absolutely right. In fact, I know you are correct when you state that everyone would enjoy a concept built around a statistical god. But you know what, I don't find it fair to switch stats around to accomodate you. This is a game, and I can easily have fun just like the next person without that exceptional strength. Sure, it's great, but you don't -need- it. Any intelligent player with common fucking sense can survive in this game if they play conservatively.

Roleplaying is about creating a character and bringing that character to life. The design would reinforce that better if we could predetermine stat order.

That's just skrate up wrong honkey. It is, to me, a basic form of twinking out. Awww, *sniff* *sniff* You didn't get that AI strength. Whaaa!!! Screw predetermining stat order. Use reroll, and if that doesn't help, then boohoo, play the game.

FJ's lesson for today: You are wrong.

I was probably playing D&D before you were born. It's not about accommodating people's styles. It is about making a change that will create more consistent characters in the game. After all, that's what Armageddon is about.

I'm tired of people throwing out the "AI strength" red herring. The recommendation is to keep stats COMPLETELY RANDOM. Therefore, the stats will not change...only the order. I have yet to see an intelligent argument to the contrary.

[Forest Junkie]

I was probably playing D&D before you were born.

Dude...you are like, old and shit.

It's not about accommodating people's styles.

Oh, it's not? Then why suggest the ability to fix the arrangement of stats?

I'm tired of people throwing out the "AI strength" red herring. The recommendation is to keep stats COMPLETELY RANDOM. Therefore, the stats will not change...only the order.

What you roll is what you roll. Don't you D&D dinosaurs know anything? There is no second chance when I roll stats in D&D, much less repositioning the order of stats. Be thankful for what you have.

I have yet to see an intelligent argument to the contrary.

You goober. *smites j00*

Like I said, I have yet to see an intelligent argument to the contrary

[jhunter]

Xerin wrote:
It's not about accommodating people's styles.


Oh, it's not? Then why suggest the ability to fix the arrangement of stats?

[EvilRoeSlade]

There are a lot of elements that are under a players control, and they are all more important than statistics.  This is good.  But to add something else to the debate, I like that there is one minor element that is left to chance.  We can't all be hulking jocks in real life, and in game we can't all be hulking warriors.

When people say that they want to roleplay a character with a high agility, I take it to mean that they want to kick ass with a character with high agility.  Because the only RP revolving around statistics that I can recall is one time when a n00b smiled and said, and I quote: "My endurance is my best attribute."

It doesn't have anything to do with RP because meaningful RP only rarely arises from it.  So I don't see any pressing need to give people control over it.

At this point, I've made my case and people are just getting repetitive. I'll leave it at that.

[Agent_137]

At this point, I've made my case and people are just getting repetitive. I'll leave it at that.

People are also blatantly ignoring your points.

This thread is about character alignment. I want my sdesc to match my stats. I don't want to twink anything out. I don't want AI strength. I don't want AI anything. I just want to be able to build a character with a certain idea in mind and not have it flipped flopped by a frikken role of the dice.

And don't give me the "Shut up and deal with it." I'm already doing that, ok? I'm dealing with it by being more adaptive with my descriptions and by posting my ideas in this thread.

[Angela Christine]

Half-giants would certainly be more popular if you could pick wisdom and agility as your top stats.  Even with below average strength a half-giant can rip the arms off anyone else.  But a half-giant that has low wisdom for a half-giant, well, that is really, really low wisdom.  A half-giant that has low agility for a half-giant is especially clumsy.  Being able to minimize those handicaps but keep the naturally high strength would be cool.

Likewise it would be nice for an elf to be able to take strength as their highest stat.  Their wisdom and agility will still be higher than most humans because of their racial bonuses, and a high strength elf will be able to carry more stuff and use better weapons.  


I don't think the staff will go for it though.  If you feel that your roll and reroll are dreadfully incompatible with the physical description you chose, then it isn't that hard to have a small alteration made to your sdesc after you are in the world.  People do it all the time.


AC

[jhunter]

I couldn't think of a good example, but AC you hit two great ones right there.

By ordering stats people would almost always set them up to compensate for racial weaknesses, which is where it would be twinky to do. With decent roles and by ordering them correctly you wouldn't have to suffer the drawbacks of the racial weaknesses as much. Which over all, would make exceptional pcs of those races more common than they should be.
Exceptional being that, their normal racial weaknesses wouldn't be as great as with the random roll on average.

[Anonymous]

Earlier someone mentioned a disease, or raptor slice that influenced their muscles/endurance/whatever.. Here's my problem with that.

ITS NOT IN THE FUCKING BACKGROUND. there fore, you're playing something /not/ in the background, and that's bad ICly.

Another way to handle this would be to set the rolls for your account as p/b.av./av./a.av./g/AI on each stat before you make the char, then alter them for race/class/time of the month. You know, so you /know/ your warrior's going to be dextrous..not strong..and You don't app./desc. Ahnald, when you're gettin' the Woody Allen.

[Bestatte]

I'm not really sure how it would be twinky, jhunter.

I don't see a switch as something that could cause much twinkage, if you compare it to the twinkage that can already occur with the way things are now. That "feeble old man" sitting at the bar - just so happens to have AI strength and very good agility - how exactly do you expect him to RP "around" his stats if you decide that you need to kick his ass, and the code forces him to turn you into a ground sirloin mek burger while he wields his thin bone sliver? In that case, it's the code that's forcing the twinkage. It's forcing you to RP contrary to what your character IS. Your character IS a brute, whether you choose to RP it that way or not. Eventually you'll get found out and maybe even accused of spicing up, or being a magicker. All because the code has decreed that you are something other than you created and got approved for.

And yeah sure, you could send up a wish or e-mail mud asking for a change - but do you really want the staff spending their time addressing every single person who feels their description should be changed, just because now we all know we -can- do this, and just because our stat -placement- doesn't correspond at all to our character's approved background and description? They already approved it. So why not let the stats reflect what was already approved? The stat placement only - not the values, only where those values go.

If it was such an unreasonable idea, and if as FJ says, you get a roll - deal with it - then why does Arm let you REROLL within the first 2 hours of playing? Why not just get rid of rerolling altogether? And for all those people who feel this is a stupid idea, based on the fact that you should "deal with it" and for no other reason - how many times have you taken advantage of the reroll command?

[Cenghiz]

Maybe I'm just funny but; don't the imms already give you handicaps and advantages code-wise after reading your desc and history? Whenever I applied for the brutal tank, I had high str but low agi. Whenever I applied for the clever weakling, I had just real high wisdom, nothing else. Nearly all my characters were related to their description and history. When I saw that's not, I just thought "Man I wanted more than an average sum of points."
I guess there's of course a random factor but still the imms are using some kind of flag to have your wis or str etc. as your primary stat. Isn't that so? If it's not, sorry let me shut up, I'm just lucky.

[wizturbo]

Fine, I'll throw in a new suggestion, since this debate is getting so lively.

The "go all average" option.

If your character is designed to be basically average in most regards, give players the option to go 'all average' instead of reroll.  It just means, all their stats get set to average and thats where they stay.  That way, you can be too far away from your character design concept.  Sure, you might not be super strong, but you wouldn't be super weak either.  So the comparison wouldn't be that blatant.

Just another idea from a tired guy.

[flurry]

It would be nice to have some form of control over which stats are the better ones.

I don't really like the idea as it's stated here, though.    I pointed out a few pages back that it allows you to overcome age-related disadvantages unrealistically.    If age were factored in to prevent this, then I'd like this more.

Also I think it's too powerful when combined with reroll.   I'd like to see an idea like this set up so that it's not just a given that you arrange your stats in order.   If you want to order your stats, then no reroll.   Or none of your stats can be above "good" if you order your stats.   Or some other penalty to make people think twice about using it at least.    

Just as a last comment, I wonder how often mismatched concepts and stats is even an issue.  It's a good idea to keep things at least flexible enough to deal with different kinds of stats.  If it's absolutely crucial to your concept that your PC is as strong as an ox, maybe special ap is the way to go.   Maybe it doesn't have to be that way, but I'm concerned about a system where there's no disadvantage/disincentive to ordering stats.

[Candi]

I wasn't actually suggesting a change in the way stats are assigned, although that's an interesting idea. One possibility would be to have the four stats randomized as usual, but give the player the option to assign those four stats according to his character concept.

So, you might start with:

Your strength is below average
Your agility is good
Your wisdom is extremely good
Your endurance is poor

Then, prior to pointing to your starting location, you could type:

"Exchange strength agility"

In order to have good strength and below average agility.

That way, you get the same distribution of stats you would expect in a random system, but you have the freedom to match those stats more appropriately to your character concept.

I think this idea has A LOT of merit.  Coming from a tabletop gaming background...this is similar to the way that you work your stats in D&D.  You roll first...get your numbers, then you assign them.  You put them into the slots as you see fit....STR, WIS, CHA, INT, DEX...you get the idea.  The concept is that you use the numbers to make your character WHO he or she is supposed to be, as you have conceptualized that character.

Sure sometimes  instead of looking at their characters as they have been conceptualized, there are those whom will relent to their inner "twinks" (or "munchkins" in tabletop lingo).  Those who will just max out the stats relative to their class..ie. I am a "Fighter" so I'll make my STR hella high so she'll kick ass.  So what that the description/background says, that she is "a small, comely half-elf who became a fighter after escaping the clutches of ruthless slavers.  After finding herself to be burning with an intense bitterness, she realized an unquenchable desire to become a warrior and punish all slavers.  She wants to end slavery.  She sees no other reason to live and believes that nothing else that will heal her wounds and allow her to go on."  She wouldn't be HELLA strong...but she would be HELLA driven.  Not as strong as a 7 foot man who had worked in the docks since childhood developing his strength to it's maximum potential...so that's just Wrong.  Her Charisma in D&D would be maxed to it's hilt though.  That would be correct.  (I realize this isn't Armageddon exactly, but I'm assuming that you are all intelligent enough to make the tiny leap to take this logic and apply it here.)

However, the truth is that MOST often it WILL fit your character to max out his main skill...ie.  Vash's superior intellect was noted by wizard who was wandering through his village home.  The wizard took interest in the lad and eventually made him her apprentice"  You max out your INT...this would make great sense.  IT would fit the character.  It would also explain why the character decided to become a wizard in the first place, at least in part.  After all, if you're going to BECOME a Wizard, you are probably going to have a knack for the skills involved...that would explain your choice of vocation.  Most people who have become warriors are going to be strong, most people who have become thieves are going to have a lot of dexterity, they're going to be agile.  

If your character is an anomaly, chances are that you are a serious Roleplayer wanting to be adventurous with your character.  Most likely, in that case, you're not gonna twink out.

In conclusion...if you give someone any amount of control...is there a possiblity that they may abuse it?  Yes, sure there is.  But, if it will improve RP and realism overall...I say, so be it.  I can live with that.  I want my character to be as close to the being whom I picture in my mind's eye as humanly possible.  I'd like to have a chance to at least switch two stats.  I think it sucks when a not quite so newbie "big tough guy" gets his ass kicked by a newbie "petite leggy thin girl". Especially when their backgrounds and ways of behaving also keep it from making sense.   If I have to trust the tough guy to max his STR and lower his DEX (agility in ARM), then I can live with trusting the pretty young thing to keep her STR as realistic as possible and maybe max out her agility or something that would make sense for her frame...I can live with that.  

I can live with trusting other players if it means that I can make my charcter more "real".

I want MY character to be Right.  Screw your character, screw her character, screw his charcter, do whatever you want.  I want mine to be as close to what I imagine as I can get.

[spawnloser]

I had a character whose background and description indicated that she would be frail weakling that lived by her wits and quick feet.  She had a stat at average (endurance), two stats at below average (wisdom and agility), and one at poor (strength).  Now, that was after a reroll...before that, the stats were worse, if you can believe it (two poors and two below averages).  Now, if my wisdom and agility with that character had been averages and the others poor, I would have been cool from the beginning...but at the beginning, her poors were in wisdom and agility, the averages in strength and endurance.  That character convinced me that not every character (at the very least) has stats flagged appropriate to character background/description by IMMs, just to address that point.  If the staff wants to correct that belief, I'm all ears to quote an earless friend of mine (which amused me to no end).

As far as flurry's idea to have no stat able to get above good if you want to order, that I don't like...I prefer the no reroll option if you want to order stats, as everyone should have the full range of possibilities, but if you want to have some control over how they are placed, you lose control over how many times you get to roll, that I like.

Now to the min-max debate.  In D&D, which I have played over half of my life-span, invariably, someone will (when allowed) pick stats appropriate to the class they are going to play.  Yeah, you put the 18 in your intelligence for your wizard.  So?  That's not min-maxing.  People do like the road of least resistance...and if you are naturally inclined to a certain profession, based off of your natural abilities, you are much more likely to pick that profession.  A neanderthal is dumb as hell, but physically impressive, so he would not choose to go wizard, but barbarian.  That frail weakling is probably not going to be a fighter, but a wizard or thief, depending on their other natural inclinations.  I do not see a huge problem with ordering stats for this reason, but I'm fine if things stay the way they are.

[Lazy Diealot]

*looks Spawnloser and nods* See ? See? People seem to get this Logic Thing after all.

[Candi]

This is a game, and I can easily have fun just like the next person without that exceptional strength. Sure, it's great, but you don't -need- it. Any intelligent player with common fucking sense can survive in this game if they play conservatively.

First off, I think Forest Junkie is Super Cool...I generally agree, and I like the personality he puts into his posts.  In essense..I'm not pickin' on ya, Buddy.  :wink:   But, here's the thing...You're right...you Can have fun and you don't need to twink out or have exceptional anything to play and to RP your ass off.  However, it's not All about survival of the fittest, although it is somewhat, and it is not All about having fun, although it is somewhat, to me the meat of the game is about Getting Into Character.  That's what I'm here for.  I want to become the character and RP it out.  I want Experience the Arm world through that character that I conceptualized.  Tailoring the stats to my concept...not to my slefish desires, ease of play, and most effective hackandslashability (yes I made that up)...but to my description and background, that could help make that happen.

I don't like it if someone gives his short thin man with boyish features maxed out strength that would feasibly be better suited to a tall guy who looks like a bodybuilder.  But neither do I like to see the bodybuilder looking guy with the agility of a ballerina and the strength of a boneless chicken.  

Sure, I can make do. That's what I do as it is.  I can RP out things that fit my character even if the stats are working against the grain of my character...but I don't wanna if I don't hafta.  If that guy abuses the power...screw him.  It's all about me. I WANT THE CONTROL, I Have to have the Control! Give me the control...I love the control!  *groans*  Oh, *looks around and realizes that she is not alone* Sorry.  

Anyway. I think realism is primarily important.  It's not about favors, not about making it easy...not at all, not to me anyway.  Those things suck.  But, if coincidentally your character's life is made easier... less harsh in some way because of the stats that better fit your descrip....that shouldn't matter.  Let's not be masochists.  We don't necessarily have to suffer more to experience the joy of the game.  I just want to see my concept blossom into fruition.  Is that so wrong?