New Weapon System Discussion

[najdorf]

I thought that some people might want to talk about recent changes. What do you think of them so far?

My initial question: If the recent change was only supposed to affect damage (as mentioned by staff earlier), or if there were also updates made to the combat system as a whole. Also, is this change related to the complaints about -combat grind- that some people have mentioned? It would be helpful to have more information about how this change affects the overall combat system, since we have more transparency now.

[Kaathe]

the goal of this change was to make weapon damage more fair and consistent. Previously whichever staff made the weapon could pick the damage and usually did so based on a similar weapon. So it was easy for good and bad choices to propagate.

You might get more details from halaster, but I don't think this change was intended to affect the overall combat system at all except to reduce inconsistency and the value of meta-knowledge.

[Halaster]

It was not intended to change anything except damage.

However, there've been a couple of bugs that did actually affect combat which I believe I have worked out now.

[Riev]

It is a good change in conjunction with the analyze changes. More weapon recipes will be found and people will begin to gravitate towards weapons of "higher quality" which is what we want.

If you're using a "terrible" knife, there's probably a reason.
If we can add in a honing/weapon repair system that'd be dope

But I'm now waiting to see "this cuirass is of poor quality against bludgeoning"

[dunecrawler]

Hit/miss chance still seems to be affected.

[racurtne]

Seemed to be weapon-specific when I observed it last night (before the recent changes this morning).

Might want to file a request on that particular weapon to get it looked at so they have an example to work off of.

[BadSkeelz]

It is a good change in conjunction with the analyze changes. More weapon recipes will be found and people will begin to gravitate towards weapons of "higher quality" which is what we want.

If you're using a "terrible" knife, there's probably a reason.
If we can add in a honing/weapon repair system that'd be dope

But I'm now waiting to see "this cuirass is of poor quality against bludgeoning"

I'm hoping that we see the reverse - that we find out there's a larger variety of weapons that work just as well, so now people can more comfortably pick weapons based on style rather than pure coded benefits.

[Pariah]

It is a good change in conjunction with the analyze changes. More weapon recipes will be found and people will begin to gravitate towards weapons of "higher quality" which is what we want.

If you're using a "terrible" knife, there's probably a reason.
If we can add in a honing/weapon repair system that'd be dope

But I'm now waiting to see "this cuirass is of poor quality against bludgeoning"

I'm hoping that we see the reverse - that we find out there's a larger variety of weapons that work just as well, so now people can more comfortably pick weapons based on style rather than pure coded benefits.

What do you mean?  Like just picking wicked scimitars cause they say wicked?

[najdorf]

A sweet concern, yet how does staff plan to respond to master craft requests, as almost every crafter will now ask for legendary weapons? Frankly, no crafter would ever go for a terrible knife. Previously the lottery effect was kind of mysterious and holding crafters from inquiring too much.

[Riev]

Its all in the clan, the material, and type of weapon.

Non-Salarri? Probably not making more than a Good sword.
Salarri? Probably making some Very Good swords for those that can afford it.
salarr-made equipment for nobility? Better be damned amazing.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm gonna miss the ability to sell the nobility just dogshit-tier equipment that looks flashy.

[Pariah]

Its all in the clan, the material, and type of weapon.

Non-Salarri? Probably not making more than a Good sword.
Salarri? Probably making some Very Good swords for those that can afford it.
salarr-made equipment for nobility? Better be damned amazing.

Unless I read it wrong, sounds like clan's don't mean shit for damage.

I don't think Salarr has a bonus.

[najdorf]

I'm gonna miss the ability to sell the nobility just dogshit-tier equipment that looks flashy.

the emerald-crusted, parmesan-sprinkled dagger gently bounces off your soft skin

[Riev]

Its all in the clan, the material, and type of weapon.

Non-Salarri? Probably not making more than a Good sword.
Salarri? Probably making some Very Good swords for those that can afford it.
salarr-made equipment for nobility? Better be damned amazing.

Unless I read it wrong, sounds like clan's don't mean shit for damage.

I don't think Salarr has a bonus.

Salarr-made weapons absolutely will have a quality bonus. A wooden sword at average, and a Salarri wooden sword at average, will do the same damage.
But Salarr weapons are unlikely to be 'just average', is my point.

[Halaster]

A sweet concern, yet how does staff plan to respond to master craft requests, as almost every crafter will now ask for legendary weapons? Frankly, no crafter would ever go for a terrible knife. Previously the lottery effect was kind of mysterious and holding crafters from inquiring too much.

Excellent question.

Quality will be determined by the materials used to some degree, the skill of the person requesting the CC, and the skill required to craft it.  If you tick all the boxes, you can request a 'best' quality weapon, but the difficulty required to make it each and every time is going to be very high, and require some good ingredients.  You'll fail a lot in crafting the recipe.

[Brokkr]

A sweet concern, yet how does staff plan to respond to master craft requests, as almost every crafter will now ask for legendary weapons? Frankly, no crafter would ever go for a terrible knife. Previously the lottery effect was kind of mysterious and holding crafters from inquiring too much.

Excellent question.

Quality will be determined by the materials used to some degree, the skill of the person requesting the CC, and the skill required to craft it.  If you tick all the boxes, you can request a 'best' quality weapon, but the difficulty required to make it each and every time is going to be very high, and require some good ingredients.  You'll fail a lot in crafting the recipe.

We'll probably decide when it comes up.

My preference is that you need to "work up" over the course of a couple of custom craft recipes to get a great weapon, along with what Halaster stated.

[Pariah]

The problem with master crafts from what I've seen as a master skill level of various types is that you have high master skill, maxed to the top, but the recipe still is difficult or manageable and you waste all the diamond encrusted halfling legs it takes to make it.

[Brokkr]

Its all in the clan, the material, and type of weapon.

Non-Salarri? Probably not making more than a Good sword.
Salarri? Probably making some Very Good swords for those that can afford it.
salarr-made equipment for nobility? Better be damned amazing.

Unless I read it wrong, sounds like clan's don't mean shit for damage.

I don't think Salarr has a bonus.

You can actually figure this out IC now!

And you obviously are not paying attention:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58815.0.html

Q: Can I custom craft an 'amazing' quality weapon?
A: For now, only Salarr has the technology and history to make the best quality weapons.   There may be tribes that can make the best quality weapons of a single type, like a spear.   Independent, self-taught crafters will not have the ability to make amazing weapons.

[Brokkr]

The problem with master crafts from what I've seen as a master skill level of various types is that you have high master skill, maxed to the top, but the recipe still is difficult or manageable and you waste all the diamond encrusted halfling legs it takes to make it.

Good?  Errrrr, I mean, that probably means really good stuff is going to be really expensive!

[Veselka]

From what I've seen aspects of a mastercraft where gemstones are aesthetic additions are sometimes salvagable, sometimes not.

Otherwise yeah -- It's a difficult craft. It should mean sacrificing some of the materials to make it. That's true in most MMORPGs and MUDs.

[Veselka]

I'm curious how the damage change will affect (inadvertently) survivability in PvE and PvP scenarios. Looking forward to trying it out and seeing the difference (if any).

More than anything, I like that things will be consistent and not discretionary. Some Staff would overpower a master craft, others would over 'realism' it, so YMMV when you would submit a Mastercraft, no matter how laconic or well-written etc. I like that it's just based on quality vs materials.

In a MC request you might make a pitch for X quality -- And then like Brokkr said, depending on how many MC's you've made, how long you've been doing it, you might score Y quality.

And I like that Salarr (for now) is the only one capable of making 'best' quality. Definitely puts the desirability for their product back on the menu, and a reason to spend top 'sid on their equipment.

It'd be cool if the same was true of their armor.

[Pariah]

The only thing about the Salarri thing I don't like is the clanning piece.

Though I guess you could always make someone, join Salarr and leave, but the way codedly it probably works is that if you don't have clan salarr, you don't get the bonus.

I've had characters that worked in three different clans of their lives and if say I make a Salarri, get myself up to master in everything, then leave to go do my own shit, codedly I lose all my knowledge and ability.

I wish it was more of a character thing and less of a clanning thing.

I feel that way about all crafts, unless there is some specific tool that only Salarr has, it doesn't make sense that a crafter one day can make a diamond encrusted warsword +12, and then quit and lose all their knowledge and crafts.

There should be a way to steal knowledge and techniques from places to utilize as your own.

[mansa]

The only thing about the Salarri thing I don't like is the clanning piece.

Though I guess you could always make someone, join Salarr and leave, but the way codedly it probably works is that if you don't have clan salarr, you don't get the bonus.

I've had characters that worked in three different clans of their lives and if say I make a Salarri, get myself up to master in everything, then leave to go do my own shit, codedly I lose all my knowledge and ability.

I wish it was more of a character thing and less of a clanning thing.

I feel that way about all crafts, unless there is some specific tool that only Salarr has, it doesn't make sense that a crafter one day can make a diamond encrusted warsword +12, and then quit and lose all their knowledge and crafts.

There should be a way to steal knowledge and techniques from places to utilize as your own.

The way the FAQ answer is written, you might be able to "take your knowledge you learned while at Salarr, and custom craft something special" after you quit that clan.

Independent, self-taught crafters will not have the ability to make amazing weapons.

That says nothing about being employed, taught house secrets by Salarr...

[Pariah]

Well of course anything is possible with a request and staff permission.

I just tend to like the code to be automated more so than having to put a request in to explain why I'm great at making bone swords and this particular bone sword should be a masterpiece.

[mansa]

I don't think they will ever automate custom crafting new objects.

[LindseyBalboa]

The only thing about the Salarri thing I don't like is the clanning piece.

Though I guess you could always make someone, join Salarr and leave, but the way codedly it probably works is that if you don't have clan salarr, you don't get the bonus.

I've had characters that worked in three different clans of their lives and if say I make a Salarri, get myself up to master in everything, then leave to go do my own shit, codedly I lose all my knowledge and ability.

I wish it was more of a character thing and less of a clanning thing.

I feel that way about all crafts, unless there is some specific tool that only Salarr has, it doesn't make sense that a crafter one day can make a diamond encrusted warsword +12, and then quit and lose all their knowledge and crafts.

There should be a way to steal knowledge and techniques from places to utilize as your own.

I think you can, you just also need to steal the top tier Salarr tools, the high quality unblemished goods they secure for use, the clean workshops protected from the elements, the gaggle of trained assistant v npcs around to help with every part of every step, etc, along with some of the know-how

Came back to add that the proper workshop alone would be so hugely beneficial. I never really thought about it that hard. My buddy does wood installations and metalwork and has a vacuum sealed room for high quality stuff to dry in or whatever for a perfect finish. That perfect lacquered silt horror breastplate isn't getting that in a tent.

[Pariah]

I would 💯% agree with what you said Lindsay, but the crafts don't require you to be in a certain room or have a certain master tool.

Maybe that would make it make more sense if it did.

But if I'm a master level sword maker with Salarr clanning I can make that awesome sword in the middle of the salt flats or my workshop.

[creeper386]

I would certainly love for crafting to be tool/room bound as opposed to just a binary in clan or not, but perhaps that's getting into a different discussion then the weapon quality system.

[Pariah]

I would certainly love for crafting to be tool/room bound as opposed to just a binary in clan or not, but perhaps that's getting into a different discussion then the weapon quality system.

Yeah, you're right, I'll post a new topic when I get some time at work tomorrow, right now it's night night time.

[Krath]

Deleted..found answer

[Halcyon]

Could it possible to add an argument to the list command in shops, to only show items of quality above or below a certain level?

[Pariah]

Could it possible to add an argument to the list command in shops, to only show items of quality above or below a certain level?

YES!  Nothing is worse than say buying a tool, to find out that it's such shit quality you can't use it to craft anything.

[LindseyBalboa]

I would 💯% agree with what you said Lindsay, but the crafts don't require you to be in a certain room or have a certain master tool.

Maybe that would make it make more sense if it did.

But if I'm a master level sword maker with Salarr clanning I can make that awesome sword in the middle of the salt flats or my workshop.

Yo that's a sweet idea.

[Nao]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

[Pariah]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

In unrelated news, they nerfed elves.

[Nao]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

In unrelated news, they nerfed elves.

Everyone with low-ish strength.

[Armaddict]

No one ever thinks of the elves.

[Brokkr]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

Well, if they are the weapons you have equipped...

One has the exact same average.  It has a higher max and a lower min, but the same average as it used to.

The other was one of the very best weapons you could get the in game, previously.  It was no where near where it should have been.

[tiny rainbow]

It sorta was like a running joke for a while but I think we do need coders to play elves more often because there comes a point where things are just stacking up ridiculously now lol - I don't only either, myself, but I think it's important to experience this since it's like two separate games when so many things are changing so fast

- Elves solely had health reductions/endurance reductions

- Mount feeding made the desert being a dangerous place a thing of the past, no one stops in the desert anymore which is probably a wider issue that has made random people riding around solo a normalised thing now - this was probably one of the worst mistakes in the game and as human saw lot of people using it in blatantly unrealistic ways - aren't the stables meant to have been feeding the animals already?

- Elves were more affected by making poison made less useful, as well as needing lots of RL hours to maintain - while strength characters are just able to just randomly 1 hit kill people with less options for RP too

- Elves will obviously be more affected by making weapons designed around strength too, since weapons used to not be balanced around having max strength

[Pariah]

I once upon a time had an absolutely incredible strength dude and he could kill with a 20 Sid crude club like nothing because of how hard he hit.

Strength is always going to be the primary damage dealer until they change the combat code.  From my understanding the weapons just provided a small boost to the damage you could give.

So elves are always gonna suck in that regard.

Though agility is how many swings you take, I've had elves in the byn slap me ten times to my one swing as a human, it all balances out in the end.

[Tranquil]

Staff should consider implementing agility weapons. This is yet another nerf in a long line of elf nerfs.

[dunecrawler]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

Well, if they are the weapons you have equipped...

One has the exact same average.  It has a higher max and a lower min, but the same average as it used to.

The other was one of the very best weapons you could get the in game, previously.  It was no where near where it should have been.

One is fine. I was expecting a nerf for the other one, but I was not expecting 6-minute fights with a scrab while etwoing that.

[Yelinak]

Strength matters way too much for damage. Or, if I had to specify the issue, I think I'd say that damage without high strength is not good enough. Combat with high strength actually feels pretty realistic and representative of how it would be in the real world, but if you don't have high strength, damage is so pathetically low that it's kind of ridiculous. I don't mean with poor strength, either. Even if you have, say, above average strength on a human, it's miserable. Elves struggle the most because they can't really get high strength, but any race besides muls and half-giants has the same issue if you don't prioritize that stat.

Skill doesn't seem to affect damage very much, either. You'll just land your hits more often, but if most of them are nicks and grazes and lightly, the time it takes to kill anything is just silly whenever you don't happen to land blows to the head/neck repeatedly. The only thing that makes it playable at all is the fact that most NPCs just stand there until dead even if you have to hit them eighteen times to get there. In PvP, the disadvantage of not-high strength is so severe that you're practically forced to utilize poisons and/or ranged weapons. The latter is highly unreliable because people can just peace out after the first shot, and poisons are also noticeably nerfed now.

Playing a combat character without high strength feels so futile. Everything's way harder. Animals take so long to kill that they become much more dangerous, and your melee hits aren't a real threat to PCs because you usually deal single-digit damage. A character with high strength hits much harder with a crappy dagger than a character with middling strength using a greatsword or something similar. It's totally unbalanced. That was also the case before the weapon overhaul, so it's not about that.

[mansa]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1085920.html#msg1085920

January 11, 2023 (Wednesday)

Halaster
- Fixed issue where people with very low strength were getting triple penalized when using 2-handed weapons.  This was an existing bug for years apparently.

It appears that some of the prayers were answered!

[Pariah]

I've noticed some pretty massive reduction in damage. Elves are going to have trouble without a great strength roll. Either something is not working, or the damage rolls for some of these weapon types may need to be looked at.

Well, if they are the weapons you have equipped...

One has the exact same average.  It has a higher max and a lower min, but the same average as it used to.

The other was one of the very best weapons you could get the in game, previously.  It was no where near where it should have been.

One is fine. I was expecting a nerf for the other one, but I was not expecting 6-minute fights with a scrab while etwoing that.

There was just a release notes, was showing a bug when etwoing, that's probably your culprit.

[Tranquil]

The bug-fix doesn't change anything except for the poor-below avg strength elves. Your strength score has to be so small there would've been negatives in the damage roll. Which is a very small minority.

The problem still applies, and what Yelinak said is still 100% true.

[Armaddict]

It WOULD be cool if there was an equivalent of weapon finesse that made agility more important to certain weapon types, to varying degrees, as opposed to strength everywhere.

If that's already how things are and we just don't know it, then I'm just going to, hey look a squirrel, let's go over there now.

[Veselka]

It WOULD be cool if there was an equivalent of weapon finesse that made agility more important to certain weapon types, to varying degrees, as opposed to strength everywhere.

If that's already how things are and we just don't know it, then I'm just going to, hey look a squirrel, let's go over there now.

I agree 100% with this. It has always been 'Bludgeoning + Strength' = Best, and I almost out of spite choose swords most of the time.  liked the addition of riposte because agility does seem to assist with its success. It would be very cool to expand on that -- have certain weapons excel against certain armor types, agility vs strength, maybe agility weapons bypass a certain amount of armor.

[Tranquil]

If daggers were so terrible in every situation, no one would make daggers in this world.

If we had agility weapons, these lesser-used weapons would find a use amongst the races that can't one shot things with mega mauls.

Giving elves or low-strength humans the ability to do more then 1-5 damage a hit would not be game breaking.

[Pariah]

If daggers were so terrible in every situation, no one would make daggers in this world.

If we had agility weapons, these lesser-used weapons would find a use amongst the races that can't one shot things with mega mauls.

Giving elves or low-strength humans the ability to do more then 1-5 damage a hit would not be game breaking.

I agree completely, but don't think the combat system can be easily tweaked in that regard.

I put in a request because stalker needs to get parry to branch three skills and my homeboy was a shield user.  I asked if there was a way to make it check Parry before it checks shield to allow parry to advance quicker.  Was basically told that the combat system is so wonky it couldn't be fixed without major effort put in.

Took my dude like 11 days played, fighting every day to get parry to branched status because of it while everything else was branched and on its way to master save the combat skills.

The combat system has pretty much worked the same way for all of the game, so my guess is there is some stuff they can tweak easier like damage bonus on a particular weapon, armor bonus on spells and physical armor.

But to make combat understand agility in terms of damage and not just swings per tick?  I highly doubt it.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I haven't had the chance to really test these changes out myself, but it seems like what they've done is manage to push elves out of combat/pvp gameplay by making damage even more reliant on having a high stat that they are known for having be notoriously-low. I think these changes were made for the idealized betterment of the game, but intention vs. result seems to be a little bit different, here.

Their one saving grace is being able to crit more often (since, as far as I know that's based on their racial stat of agility), but you shouldn't have to bank on a chance hit just to be functional, and Half-Giants and Muls certainly didn't need to have a better edge in combat than they already have (HG agi aside). Weaponry options have been cornered into high-end Salarri options, and even Salarri weapons that used to be common AND good are now mid-tier at best, which is a problem when you factor in how much more dangerous this makes fighting even NPC beasts like raptors or carru. Now you're forced to dish out 15 hits of nick/light damage when originally you might have been able to take it out in 7-10 average/solid hits, which is an even bigger problem when you consider how lethal these beasts tend to be anyway.

Sure, elves have high agi, so they have a lesser chance to be hit and hit more often anyway, but how does this affect humans? Dwarves, HG, and Muls have been given a clear advantage here, since combat is so strength-prioritized now (when it comes to actually dealing damage, sure my elf can hit 100 times but it doesn't matter if i'm bouncing off your skin).

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Magickers who summon elemental weapons are now also given a big step-up, since a lot of their weapons (as far as I've noticed) have a material tier of 'made of magick' which might as well be metal from what I understand. So.. really, now a great portion of elves who don't high roll all of their stats are boxxed up in the knowledge that they will need to play a gick just to be a threat, if they're playing anything that can't utilize or make insane use out of the poisoning system. Keep in mind, the only viable option for high-tier poisoning in the wilderness is Stalker + Apothecary since no other combat class outside of Miscreant (which is a city class, not a wild class) gets master poison AND a high-tier brew skill.

[Tranquil]

Magickers who summon elemental weapons are now also given a big step-up, since a lot of their weapons (as far as I've noticed) have a material tier of 'made of magick' which might as well be metal from what I understand.

Yeah, if you play a elf, make sure you're a magicker or else you're probably going to be just a mild annoyance to most people when it comes to PVP.

Unless of course, you want to go through the supreme hassle of making strong poisons. Which has high failure rates in every regard even with master skills, and will turn useless in potency after an IRL week. If you can even land your archery shots, since everyone has jacked up defense scores in this day and age.

Meanwhile, any non-elf with above EG strength can go out and hit someone on the head for 60+ HP with no problem or hassle required.



But hey, atleast you can hold alot of things in your inventory!

[HazelHomewrecker]

Tell me you only play elves without telling me you only play elves...

Jokes aside, I don't think you're gonna be able to fix this change to make it elf friendly.

If you make a change that damages an entire race's playability, it's not a good change.

And I'll add to this. I probably won't play another elf designed for combat if this is the case. They've received a fair deal of nerfs in the recent past, most notably their changes to endurance that made them quite a bit more frail, so nerfing their damage as well as a whole (intentional or not) is sort of painful. So, all-in-all, in the past few months, elves have become more delicate, and weaker.

[Tranquil]

And I'll add to this. I probably won't play another elf designed for combat if this is the case.

Same here. I doubt I'll make another elf again if there isn't some sort of fix or change to help this issue. I'm considering storage at this point, because it's not fun seeing your (already low) damage get more then halved over-night.

It's simply 20x the work and no fun compared to just loading up a Mul, especially since karma regen is gone now.

[najdorf]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

[HazelHomewrecker]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

Like I said, I haven't had the time to sit down and test it myself. I'm going based off the information that I have. If this is the case, that's great.

[Brokkr]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

[Nao]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

It really seems to depend on the weapon, not just quality and material, also the sort of weapon. It looks to me like small weapons stopped viable against anything with armor or armor value, which is a pity, but not game-breaking. Weapons got lighter, so chances are that PCs that can only hold a dagger aren't common anymore. Some weapons seem to be working just fine (even the average, non-Salarr sort) while others do not. I think some of the people panicking have seen the first kind (it really is bad, depending on the weapon), while everyone that has only tried the 'good' kind is are wondering what all the fuss is about.

I'm also crossing my fingers that there's another bug hiding somewhere that will be fixed eventually. In the meantime, viable, working weapons seem to be available without jumping through a bunch of hoops, finding a Salarri or sacrificing your first born child, as far as I can tell.

[HazelHomewrecker]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

That's not quite what I was trying to convey there, but that's a fair point.

[Halaster]

- Mount feeding made the desert being a dangerous place a thing of the past, no one stops in the desert anymore which is probably a wider issue that has made random people riding around solo a normalised thing now - this was probably one of the worst mistakes in the game and as human saw lot of people using it in blatantly unrealistic ways - aren't the stables meant to have been feeding the animals already?

This is not true.  There WAS a bug that allowed fed mounts to move without stamina cost, but that was fixed over a year ago.  As it works now, it simply makes mount stamina regenerate a bit faster than unfed.  It reduces the amount of time they spend resting, but mounted people absolutely do stop and rest in the desert.  I know this because I'm playing one and I have to stop and rest plenty.  Is it a perfectly balanced system?  No, there's always room for improvement, but your assertions are incorrect.

- Elves will obviously be more affected by making weapons designed around strength too, since weapons used to not be balanced around having max strength

I thought we said this, but maybe not, but a LOT of weapons, particularly the heavier ones, all had their weight reduced in the new system.  Weaker character can now wield some weapons they could not wield before.

[HazelHomewrecker]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

I think it's also possible that my perception is skewed because the class I'm playing does not start out inherently "strong" such as Raider does, so that in-tandem with the changes to weapon damage, and the SPECIFIC weapon I'm using creates a perfect storm that makes the system possibly look exponentially worse than it really is. For example, I just went toe-to-toe with a random tandu and it took me 23 hits (primarily all grazing blows) to actually knock it out--not kill it, knock it out first. This was with a "good" salarri weapon, with "good" elven strength.

Immediately, this reads as a problem, but understanding what all contributes to the total result is important, and I didn't consider that.

[Brokkr]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

I think it's also possible that my perception is skewed because the class I'm playing does not start out inherently "strong" such as Raider does, so that in-tandem with the changes to weapon damage, and the SPECIFIC weapon I'm using creates a perfect storm that makes the system possibly look exponentially worse than it really is. For example, I just went toe-to-toe with a random tandu and it took me 23 hits (primarily all grazing blows) to actually knock it out--not kill it, knock it out first. This was with a "good" salarri weapon, with "good" elven strength.

Immediately, this reads as a problem, but understanding what all contributes to the total result is important, and I didn't consider that.

If it is the weapon your character had equipped, the first part is that it was one of the best damage dice around, before.  Second is that it is a flippable weapon.  Third, is it is (can be) a bludgeoning weapon, and there was a widespread issue where bludgeoning weapons had, on average, a trend of multiple weapon types where the damage dice were really high, so in general there were a lot of really good ones.  Now they have overall damage values that take into account sharp vs not sharp and the fact that they also do the best stun damage.  And lastly, material of the weapon has an impact.

If folks have questions about their specific weapons, feel free to put in a request and I can take a look.  The instances I have seen so far all have fairly reasonable and expected outcomes, but you never know when we could have just messed something up.

[Nao]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

You could simply try different weapons before and figure out which ones worked, it was hardly an OOC problem. It's also not entirely an IC problem it is when between 0 to 1 (available) Salarri PCs are bottlenecking the supply of Salarri weapons for those 200 PCs or so that are active every week.

[BadSkeelz]

Hint: Some of the characters who have the money to spend on obscenely priced weapons (nobles, GMH leaders, templars) are generally not very good at actual combat. Kill them and take their stuff.

[Nao]

Hint: Some of the characters who have the money to spend on obscenely priced weapons (nobles, GMH leaders, templars) are generally not very good at actual combat. Kill them and take their stuff.

Other PCs also have to get these weapons from Salarr, the total number of Salarri weapons in the game remains limited by 0 to 1 Salarri PCs at any given time. The only other source would be NPCs, though I'm not sure where you would find an NPC with a good weapon.

[Yelinak]

Ordering stuff from GMHs is a total shitshow in general, so the fact that there were easily accessible weapons that were "top tier" was a convenient unofficial solution to that. This change is likely to make players much more materialistic because the really good ones aren't readily available.

A while back, I asked a Salarri merchant for "the best axe you can get me." It cost like 2000 coins. Now that I can see its quality, turns out it's 'good.' I wouldn't even know how to go about getting something better. Do I go back to Salarr, ask for an even better one, wait another three weeks, and then hope that they understood what I meant? Or will they get me a different 'good' axe and then I have to be a dick who goes "oh... no thanks, actually. I wanted something better"? Not that I desperately need a better weapon, but if I wanted one, I can't even see how I'd go about it.

I've assessed every weapon I could get my hands on since this change. I have seen two amazing ones. They were both swords belonging to noble house outfits. The only other weapon above good that I've seen was a two-handed spear that had very good. I've not seen a chopping, bludgeoning or one-handed piercing weapon above good. The best ones that I know of in the whole game are good quality. I can't even begin to imagine what weapons of these types would be above that. I wonder if they can be obtained at all. When the rarest, fanciest, most expensive axes and maces I've ever seen turned out to be good, I was puzzled.

My character has high strength, so 'good' weapons serve me just fine. I'm gettin' it done because of my strength. I'd be concerned if I was playing a character without high strength, though. Feels a lot like those previously overpowered weapons were what made that bearable.

[Tranquil]

Feels a lot like those previously overpowered weapons was what made that bearable.

Yeah, this. Finding 'amazing' weapons is a massive hassle, and will only gatekeep damage even more then it already was. Sure, there was a handful of meta weapons, but it was more of a crutch when you dealt little damage.

Not to mention, it's probably going to exacerbate the GMH vending machine issue, because now you'll have people groping for 'amazing' weapons. Naturally, said in a pointed way IC. Salarri Merchants are going to be totally overwhelmed, because I seriously doubt there's very many good+ independent weapons, and there's only a few good independent weapons.

A new meta will form soon enough, once people find out the best weapons.

This all being said, I don't mind this change. I'm more displeased by the fact that damage is much more strength dependant then it already was. Sure, you have the potential of getting some epic quality two handed sword, but this requires alot of luck, effort, and money. Until then, you're going to be stuck with the sad weapons and very, very sad damage if you dont have high strength.

[Barsook]

Agreed, didn't we want transparency like for everything else?

[Halaster]

For all we know, they didn't change at all, you now just can see that.  Are folks getting upset because they can't find the Absolutely Incredible one or whatever the scale goes to?

Before this change there wasn't a quality associated with weapons, actually.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I did a small bit of testing, and figured a few things out that do make some of the in-game changes seem more sensible.

Bludgeoning was nerfed as a damage type, since they deal stun damage. The weapon I was testing with was nerfed, and was flippable, so the odds were sort of stacked against me. I also had a consistent roll of unlucky, low-damage hits and confused that for the weapon quality, which was a mistake. A second try clarified that.

I tried out a piercing weapon, and it is a fair difference in damage-output, even with my dingy little elven strength--wasn't even that great of a quality, just 'above average.' An indie weapon, I think, but it performed okay.

[Yelinak]

We had no visibility whether a weapon was good at all prior to this change.

Folks are now freaking out that things are average, or above average or below average.

For all we know, they didn't change at all, you now just can see that.  Are folks getting upset because they can't find the Absolutely Incredible one or whatever the scale goes to?

It was generally known which weapons were the best. They had higher damage because of building inconsistencies, and that was fixed with this change. This has made it clear how terrible damage is without high strength, since it was previously carried by the crutch of overpowered weapons that have now been nerfed. Now that most characters are stuck with what was previously considered mediocre weapons, the handicap of not having high strength has been made all the more apparent.

Let's say a weapon previously had 3d3 but is now 1d7 because all weapons of that kind have that default damage, that's a big loss of damage. It's like the equivalent of the difference between a human and a dwarf. And thus far, nobody seems to have access to really good weapons, barring a select few noble house ones that are neither really accessible nor even legal to own inside cities. We aren't seeing realistically obtainable better weapons that we just have to work harder to get.

The most expensive, fancy, deadly-looking axes and bludgeons I have ever seen in this game are 'good' quality, and I can't even begin to imagine how I would pursue getting something better as I have never seen any that seem like they could possibly be above that quality level. It's not clear if they exist at all, nor how one could obtain them. In my experience so far, asking Salarr for the best weapon they offer will not get you something of noteworthy quality. It'll get you something decent.

The principle behind the change is good, but it fixed a "flaw" that wasn't problematic. Characters with middling strength using above average or good weapons now do low damage and have no apparent way to get better weapons than that. Previously, they could "simulate" having higher strength by using weapons that had more damage than they should. No longer.

[Bogre]

The bug-fix doesn't change anything except for the poor-below avg strength elves. Your strength score has to be so small there would've been negatives in the damage roll. Which is a very small minority.

The problem still applies, and what Yelinak said is still 100% true.

Well, its actually probably the majority of elves, not just ones with poor or BA strength. Poor strength on an elf is abysmally low. And 'above average' strength on a human is markedly different from e-good+.

[LindseyBalboa]

Anything under VG for elves is not actually any good based on my experience playing them. Taking that a step further, I'm reasonably certain that unless you're topped out on strength as an elf, you pretty much just use the damage of the weapon (and if you are a non-combat elf or an elf without some massive muscles, I would suggest using the now-fixed two-handed weapon style over dual wielding).

This is as designed, though.

Help Elf:

Notes:     
   "Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak.  They possess other abilities
to compensate.  If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race."


What I would really like to see is elves given a combat bonus to offset the fact that strength rules combat code, to reflect the reality of that help file, and the reality of elves. While elves have not been technically nerfed, a lot of recent changes or fixes to the game have made it harder for an elf to survive today than previously by design or no, without reflecting the advantages that elves have in lore and in help files - like that of a pack mentality. The best suggestion I've come up with so far:

If two elves are attacking Opponent, then Opponent suffers a penalty as if they were being attacked by 4+ PCs; the penalty increases with more PCs just the same. This reflects that elves should really only be doing things in a pack, but also takes into account that there are a lot of d-elf tribes and places for elves and the playerbase is usually spread out over them. It doesn't strengthen any single elf, it encourages RP, and it gives elves a slight more balance in combat that makes sense.

[Patuk]

Elves don't outnumber humans. Not virtually, not among PCs, and city elves certainly don't outnumber anyone. Moreover, it isn't an elven advantage, because 'just outnumber them' is a tactic anyone can adopt. All in all, I dont think it is a good argument in the slightest.

[LindseyBalboa]

Elves don't outnumber humans. Not virtually, not among PCs, and city elves certainly don't outnumber anyone. Moreover, it isn't an elven advantage, because 'just outnumber them' is a tactic anyone can adopt. All in all, I dont think it is a good argument in the slightest.

Nothing was written about elves as a race outnumbering anyone; really, I'm not sure how that would be applicable to combat.

It's the teamwork by two elven tribe mates who trust each other implicitly that is applying a defense or some other penalty to the opponent. Whether or not it's the outnumbering formula or not isn't really a focus.

[Yelinak]

The benefit of flippable weapons is decidedly minimal. If the damage penalty is at all noticeable, I can't see myself using one. What little advantage there could be to having two weapon types in one is probably dwarfed by the lower damage, even if you should have the rare luxury of actually raising two weapon skills equally. And if you don't, the flippability of the weapon is worth nothing. That's the main concern, to be honest: flippable weapons weren't generally used because they were flippable, they just happened to be good weapons for whichever of the two weapon skills you preferred.

There's not much actual tangible value in turning your bludgeoning weapon into a chopping weapon or whatever. These ideas of "oh then you can use whichever side your enemies are least skilled at in order to leverage their lower defenses against it!" are kind of a pipe dream. To get anything out of that, you would need to have both weapon skills exactly equal and know what weapons your opponent is or isn't skilled in. When is that ever a thing? It's just never going to come into play, to be quite honest.

Feels like flippable weapons went from a neat but ultimately immaterial gimmick to something that I'd go out of my way to avoid. In no way is the benefit meaningful enough to warrant a blanket nerf to the entire category. Even if I did alternate between weapon types, I'd rather carry one of each than work with an underpowered one just to save myself the trouble of switching weapons. It's a fluff feature, not a real asset that'll ever realistically help you. This nerf just makes flippable weapons unappealing altogether.

[Narf]

Feels like flippable weapons went from a neat but ultimately immaterial gimmick to something that I'd go out of my way to avoid. In no way is the benefit meaningful enough to warrant a blanket nerf to the entire category. Even if I did alternate between weapon types, I'd rather carry one of each than work with an underpowered one just to save myself the trouble of switching weapons. It's a fluff feature, not a real asset that'll ever realistically help you. This nerf just makes flippable weapons unappealing altogether.

I'd carry an underpowered weapon to avoid the hassle of switching weapons.

To each their own I suppose.

[Filthy_Grey_Rat]

I like the roleplay aspect. Many of my hunters will choose bludgeoning weapons to 'preserve the hide', even if it's a lower, weaker skill. Some just like flashy things.

[Kaathe]

to everyone sweating that they can't find an amazing weapon very easily, or are getting a bunch of "bounces off armor", please make sure you're noticing the material of your weapon and its suitability to the damage type. See the bottom of this post. https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58815.msg1085495.html#msg1085495

And the idea low strength characters need an amazing weapon (one step down from legendary named weapons of lore) to function in combat is hopefully, surely, untrue... right?

To people saying that Salarr will be overwhelmed by people clamoring for the best weapons - were they not already? should they not be?

[BadSkeelz]

I'd like to see less below average dogshit weapons. Raise the floor a bit so there's more viability of choice rather than a a still relatively narrow band of effective weapons. Looking at some of my old standbys, above average seems to be just fine with good strength and skills. But I dunno why anyone would want to purposefully use a Below Average weapon if any other options are available.

[Wday]

The weapons are great and this system fits with world.  Now you fit weapons to the social class in game and we thrive to get our hands on a upper class type.  For the fighters of the game adds a hunt for better in their role play with weapons.  No longer would someone carry around their chicken bone knife that they have used for twenty years.  Now a upgrade will always be sought after to you find your dog bone dagger.

[roughneck]

I'm not active right now so I don't really get an opinion, and I haven't tried anything.

But, honestly, a sharpened piece of bone is a sharpened piece of bone IMO. One of the things I've always loved about Armageddon, is that I could choose weapons that contributed to the concept of the character without sacrificing survivability.

I also know Armageddon staff are pretty smart. I hope that the system is focused on things like material quality rather than things like "diamond-encrusted" and "demon-emblazoned".

[LindseyBalboa]

Considering that no one has any idea what the difference between average or below average is, has no way to accurately compare current damage to previous damage, and that the things we have been told (flippable weapons almost all had a malus already; it's not a big change and you still get two damage types for one weight, etc) seem reasonable...

I think there's a lot more focus on the ratings than there should be instead of just using the weapons you have access to or like. The only time that comparison comes into play is when you're looking at two weapons of the same type and material (and weight? Is that confirmed it has no bearing on anything with damage, speed, accuracy, etc, as staff mentioned in this thread?). If you're looking at an average bone sword and an average obsidian sword you're looking at two completely unrelated qualities.

As an example, I have at this point used weapons of every quality level posted as known. I still feel like a below average weapon I have is one of the better ones I have access to. It reels a lot and does the most damage, from what I can tell, despite not being great quality. However the material and weapon type match up very well.

tl;dr it's the same game just go get a cool weapon and kill people til you find a cooler looking weapon

[Dresan]

First of all the weapon change was much needed. All in all a good change.



My overall problem with weapon types is mainly that heavier larger is better in every way in terms of killing.

Ideally though, wielding heavier weapons should increase the chances of you beating or winning a fight, but decrease your chances of killing your opponent(because you oppenent would have plenty of time to get up, tap their ass and walk away).  A person would have a harder time winning a fight with ligher weapons, but they should potentially be able to dish out more damage in a much shorter period of time against a defenseless or less skilled opponent.

That is not currently the case, there seems to be no real disadvantage other then just encumberance to going the absolutely largest and heaviest weapon you can wield in two or one hand.

In short, heavier weapons should be a lot slower and inwieldy than they current are, there should be a lot less attacks per round and overall attack speed than they do especially for the amount of damage they can do but at the same time they should continue being more likely to hit and when they hit, they should continue hitting hard. If this were the case, the bonus in combat attack speed agile character get would truely be an important bonus that could not be match by combat skill alone.

Right now though, heavier weapons are just so quick at killing already, even more so with a little bit of skill under your charcter belt that  there is no point in doing anything but high strength character that just find the heaviest weapons they can. This has been further compounded by the fact that poison (another good change) has been made more challenging to use. If this would change, we would probably see much more variety and options where one size would not just fit all.

[LidlessEye]

First of all the weapon change was much needed. All in all a good change.



My overall problem with weapon types is mainly that heavier larger is better in every way in terms of killing.

Ideally though, wielding heavier weapons should increase the chances of you beating or winning a fight, but decrease your chances of killing your opponent(because you oppenent would have plenty of time to get up, tap their ass and walk away).  A person would have a harder time winning a fight with ligher weapons, but they should potentially be able to dish out more damage in a much shorter period of time against a defenseless or less skilled opponent.

That is not currently the case, there seems to be no real disadvantage other then just encumberance to going the absolutely largest and heaviest weapon you can wield in two or one hand.

In short, heavier weapons should be a lot slower and inwieldy than they current are, there should be a lot less attacks per round and overall attack speed than they do especially for the amount of damage they can do but at the same time they should continue being more likely to hit and when they hit, they should continue hitting hard. If this were the case, the bonus in combat attack speed agile character get would truely be an important bonus that could not be match by combat skill alone.

Right now though, heavier weapons are just so quick at killing already, even more so with a little bit of skill under your charcter belt that  there is no point in doing anything but high strength character that just find the heaviest weapons they can. This has been further compounded by the fact that poison (another good change) has been made more challenging to use. If this would change, we would probably see much more variety and options where one size would not just fit all.

I agree. Perhaps two handed weapons could reduce attacking speed? On a separate but related note, I think certain non two handed weapons should have a huge makus if weilded in both hands. For example, a light spear is still effective if two handed, but two handing a small dagger or even a short sword, hatchet etc is ridiculous.

[Nao]

There seem to be factors besides quality and material type that play into the damage rolls of a weapon that are still invisible to players. I'm not sure if it's size or "category" (longshort/shortsword/whatever else there is, dagger/longknife/spear, two-handed vs. one-handed).
This leads to completely unexpected results. I've seen avg/above avg wooden bludgeoning weapons that work well, and 'good' ones from other materials that don't do as well.

> But Nao, just read the description and it should give you a rough idea!

I have no idea what weapon types exist, I cannot see the coded type, and I have no way to tell if the weapon is correctly categorized, or if the automatic conversion assigned the damage dice of a pocket knife for some reason. Then there are these really exotic weapons like ('gythka' and such) where I couldn't tell you how they should be categorized at all.

The result is that there is very little transparency and it's about as hard to tell which weapons are good as it was before the change - you don't know until you try using them. I think the weapon category should be listed when assessing a weapon, the same way that quality is in there, if the goal is transparency.