New Weapon System Discussion

[HazelHomewrecker]

I haven't had the chance to really test these changes out myself, but it seems like what they've done is manage to push elves out of combat/pvp gameplay by making damage even more reliant on having a high stat that they are known for having be notoriously-low. I think these changes were made for the idealized betterment of the game, but intention vs. result seems to be a little bit different, here.

Their one saving grace is being able to crit more often (since, as far as I know that's based on their racial stat of agility), but you shouldn't have to bank on a chance hit just to be functional, and Half-Giants and Muls certainly didn't need to have a better edge in combat than they already have (HG agi aside). Weaponry options have been cornered into high-end Salarri options, and even Salarri weapons that used to be common AND good are now mid-tier at best, which is a problem when you factor in how much more dangerous this makes fighting even NPC beasts like raptors or carru. Now you're forced to dish out 15 hits of nick/light damage when originally you might have been able to take it out in 7-10 average/solid hits, which is an even bigger problem when you consider how lethal these beasts tend to be anyway.

Sure, elves have high agi, so they have a lesser chance to be hit and hit more often anyway, but how does this affect humans? Dwarves, HG, and Muls have been given a clear advantage here, since combat is so strength-prioritized now (when it comes to actually dealing damage, sure my elf can hit 100 times but it doesn't matter if i'm bouncing off your skin).

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Magickers who summon elemental weapons are now also given a big step-up, since a lot of their weapons (as far as I've noticed) have a material tier of 'made of magick' which might as well be metal from what I understand. So.. really, now a great portion of elves who don't high roll all of their stats are boxxed up in the knowledge that they will need to play a gick just to be a threat, if they're playing anything that can't utilize or make insane use out of the poisoning system. Keep in mind, the only viable option for high-tier poisoning in the wilderness is Stalker + Apothecary since no other combat class outside of Miscreant (which is a city class, not a wild class) gets master poison AND a high-tier brew skill.

[Tranquil]

Magickers who summon elemental weapons are now also given a big step-up, since a lot of their weapons (as far as I've noticed) have a material tier of 'made of magick' which might as well be metal from what I understand.

Yeah, if you play a elf, make sure you're a magicker or else you're probably going to be just a mild annoyance to most people when it comes to PVP.

Unless of course, you want to go through the supreme hassle of making strong poisons. Which has high failure rates in every regard even with master skills, and will turn useless in potency after an IRL week. If you can even land your archery shots, since everyone has jacked up defense scores in this day and age.

Meanwhile, any non-elf with above EG strength can go out and hit someone on the head for 60+ HP with no problem or hassle required.



But hey, atleast you can hold alot of things in your inventory!

[HazelHomewrecker]

Tell me you only play elves without telling me you only play elves...

Jokes aside, I don't think you're gonna be able to fix this change to make it elf friendly.

If you make a change that damages an entire race's playability, it's not a good change.

And I'll add to this. I probably won't play another elf designed for combat if this is the case. They've received a fair deal of nerfs in the recent past, most notably their changes to endurance that made them quite a bit more frail, so nerfing their damage as well as a whole (intentional or not) is sort of painful. So, all-in-all, in the past few months, elves have become more delicate, and weaker.

[Tranquil]

And I'll add to this. I probably won't play another elf designed for combat if this is the case.

Same here. I doubt I'll make another elf again if there isn't some sort of fix or change to help this issue. I'm considering storage at this point, because it's not fun seeing your (already low) damage get more then halved over-night.

It's simply 20x the work and no fun compared to just loading up a Mul, especially since karma regen is gone now.

[najdorf]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

[HazelHomewrecker]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

Like I said, I haven't had the time to sit down and test it myself. I'm going based off the information that I have. If this is the case, that's great.

[Brokkr]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

[Nao]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

It really seems to depend on the weapon, not just quality and material, also the sort of weapon. It looks to me like small weapons stopped viable against anything with armor or armor value, which is a pity, but not game-breaking. Weapons got lighter, so chances are that PCs that can only hold a dagger aren't common anymore. Some weapons seem to be working just fine (even the average, non-Salarr sort) while others do not. I think some of the people panicking have seen the first kind (it really is bad, depending on the weapon), while everyone that has only tried the 'good' kind is are wondering what all the fuss is about.

I'm also crossing my fingers that there's another bug hiding somewhere that will be fixed eventually. In the meantime, viable, working weapons seem to be available without jumping through a bunch of hoops, finding a Salarri or sacrificing your first born child, as far as I can tell.

[HazelHomewrecker]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

That's not quite what I was trying to convey there, but that's a fair point.

[Halaster]

- Mount feeding made the desert being a dangerous place a thing of the past, no one stops in the desert anymore which is probably a wider issue that has made random people riding around solo a normalised thing now - this was probably one of the worst mistakes in the game and as human saw lot of people using it in blatantly unrealistic ways - aren't the stables meant to have been feeding the animals already?

This is not true.  There WAS a bug that allowed fed mounts to move without stamina cost, but that was fixed over a year ago.  As it works now, it simply makes mount stamina regenerate a bit faster than unfed.  It reduces the amount of time they spend resting, but mounted people absolutely do stop and rest in the desert.  I know this because I'm playing one and I have to stop and rest plenty.  Is it a perfectly balanced system?  No, there's always room for improvement, but your assertions are incorrect.

- Elves will obviously be more affected by making weapons designed around strength too, since weapons used to not be balanced around having max strength

I thought we said this, but maybe not, but a LOT of weapons, particularly the heavier ones, all had their weight reduced in the new system.  Weaker character can now wield some weapons they could not wield before.

[HazelHomewrecker]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

I think it's also possible that my perception is skewed because the class I'm playing does not start out inherently "strong" such as Raider does, so that in-tandem with the changes to weapon damage, and the SPECIFIC weapon I'm using creates a perfect storm that makes the system possibly look exponentially worse than it really is. For example, I just went toe-to-toe with a random tandu and it took me 23 hits (primarily all grazing blows) to actually knock it out--not kill it, knock it out first. This was with a "good" salarri weapon, with "good" elven strength.

Immediately, this reads as a problem, but understanding what all contributes to the total result is important, and I didn't consider that.

[Brokkr]

as someone with fresh elven experience and lots of data to validate new and old alike, its working fine. exactly as before.

I think it's also possible that my perception is skewed because the class I'm playing does not start out inherently "strong" such as Raider does, so that in-tandem with the changes to weapon damage, and the SPECIFIC weapon I'm using creates a perfect storm that makes the system possibly look exponentially worse than it really is. For example, I just went toe-to-toe with a random tandu and it took me 23 hits (primarily all grazing blows) to actually knock it out--not kill it, knock it out first. This was with a "good" salarri weapon, with "good" elven strength.

Immediately, this reads as a problem, but understanding what all contributes to the total result is important, and I didn't consider that.

If it is the weapon your character had equipped, the first part is that it was one of the best damage dice around, before.  Second is that it is a flippable weapon.  Third, is it is (can be) a bludgeoning weapon, and there was a widespread issue where bludgeoning weapons had, on average, a trend of multiple weapon types where the damage dice were really high, so in general there were a lot of really good ones.  Now they have overall damage values that take into account sharp vs not sharp and the fact that they also do the best stun damage.  And lastly, material of the weapon has an impact.

If folks have questions about their specific weapons, feel free to put in a request and I can take a look.  The instances I have seen so far all have fairly reasonable and expected outcomes, but you never know when we could have just messed something up.

[Nao]

[EDITED TO ADD:] Just thought of this. Another problem that is absolutely going to crop up, is that Salarr already has some pretty gnarly prices for their good shit, talking anywhere between 5k and 20k coins. This cuts out a SIGNIFICANT portion of characters who DON'T have the money or in-game income to afford the weapons that will make them at least able to function well in combat, since now there are weapon qualities determining damage output.

Could I paraphrase this as, OOC problem of knowing or figuring out which weapons have the best damage output has been substituted with IC problem in acquiring them?

There obviously has to be some difficulty in getting the best weapons, otherwise everyone would have them, and then what is the point?

You could simply try different weapons before and figure out which ones worked, it was hardly an OOC problem. It's also not entirely an IC problem it is when between 0 to 1 (available) Salarri PCs are bottlenecking the supply of Salarri weapons for those 200 PCs or so that are active every week.

[BadSkeelz]

Hint: Some of the characters who have the money to spend on obscenely priced weapons (nobles, GMH leaders, templars) are generally not very good at actual combat. Kill them and take their stuff.

[Nao]

Hint: Some of the characters who have the money to spend on obscenely priced weapons (nobles, GMH leaders, templars) are generally not very good at actual combat. Kill them and take their stuff.

Other PCs also have to get these weapons from Salarr, the total number of Salarri weapons in the game remains limited by 0 to 1 Salarri PCs at any given time. The only other source would be NPCs, though I'm not sure where you would find an NPC with a good weapon.

[Yelinak]

Ordering stuff from GMHs is a total shitshow in general, so the fact that there were easily accessible weapons that were "top tier" was a convenient unofficial solution to that. This change is likely to make players much more materialistic because the really good ones aren't readily available.

A while back, I asked a Salarri merchant for "the best axe you can get me." It cost like 2000 coins. Now that I can see its quality, turns out it's 'good.' I wouldn't even know how to go about getting something better. Do I go back to Salarr, ask for an even better one, wait another three weeks, and then hope that they understood what I meant? Or will they get me a different 'good' axe and then I have to be a dick who goes "oh... no thanks, actually. I wanted something better"? Not that I desperately need a better weapon, but if I wanted one, I can't even see how I'd go about it.

I've assessed every weapon I could get my hands on since this change. I have seen two amazing ones. They were both swords belonging to noble house outfits. The only other weapon above good that I've seen was a two-handed spear that had very good. I've not seen a chopping, bludgeoning or one-handed piercing weapon above good. The best ones that I know of in the whole game are good quality. I can't even begin to imagine what weapons of these types would be above that. I wonder if they can be obtained at all. When the rarest, fanciest, most expensive axes and maces I've ever seen turned out to be good, I was puzzled.

My character has high strength, so 'good' weapons serve me just fine. I'm gettin' it done because of my strength. I'd be concerned if I was playing a character without high strength, though. Feels a lot like those previously overpowered weapons were what made that bearable.

[Tranquil]

Feels a lot like those previously overpowered weapons was what made that bearable.

Yeah, this. Finding 'amazing' weapons is a massive hassle, and will only gatekeep damage even more then it already was. Sure, there was a handful of meta weapons, but it was more of a crutch when you dealt little damage.

Not to mention, it's probably going to exacerbate the GMH vending machine issue, because now you'll have people groping for 'amazing' weapons. Naturally, said in a pointed way IC. Salarri Merchants are going to be totally overwhelmed, because I seriously doubt there's very many good+ independent weapons, and there's only a few good independent weapons.

A new meta will form soon enough, once people find out the best weapons.

This all being said, I don't mind this change. I'm more displeased by the fact that damage is much more strength dependant then it already was. Sure, you have the potential of getting some epic quality two handed sword, but this requires alot of luck, effort, and money. Until then, you're going to be stuck with the sad weapons and very, very sad damage if you dont have high strength.

[Barsook]

Agreed, didn't we want transparency like for everything else?

[Halaster]

For all we know, they didn't change at all, you now just can see that.  Are folks getting upset because they can't find the Absolutely Incredible one or whatever the scale goes to?

Before this change there wasn't a quality associated with weapons, actually.

[HazelHomewrecker]

I did a small bit of testing, and figured a few things out that do make some of the in-game changes seem more sensible.

Bludgeoning was nerfed as a damage type, since they deal stun damage. The weapon I was testing with was nerfed, and was flippable, so the odds were sort of stacked against me. I also had a consistent roll of unlucky, low-damage hits and confused that for the weapon quality, which was a mistake. A second try clarified that.

I tried out a piercing weapon, and it is a fair difference in damage-output, even with my dingy little elven strength--wasn't even that great of a quality, just 'above average.' An indie weapon, I think, but it performed okay.

[Yelinak]

We had no visibility whether a weapon was good at all prior to this change.

Folks are now freaking out that things are average, or above average or below average.

For all we know, they didn't change at all, you now just can see that.  Are folks getting upset because they can't find the Absolutely Incredible one or whatever the scale goes to?

It was generally known which weapons were the best. They had higher damage because of building inconsistencies, and that was fixed with this change. This has made it clear how terrible damage is without high strength, since it was previously carried by the crutch of overpowered weapons that have now been nerfed. Now that most characters are stuck with what was previously considered mediocre weapons, the handicap of not having high strength has been made all the more apparent.

Let's say a weapon previously had 3d3 but is now 1d7 because all weapons of that kind have that default damage, that's a big loss of damage. It's like the equivalent of the difference between a human and a dwarf. And thus far, nobody seems to have access to really good weapons, barring a select few noble house ones that are neither really accessible nor even legal to own inside cities. We aren't seeing realistically obtainable better weapons that we just have to work harder to get.

The most expensive, fancy, deadly-looking axes and bludgeons I have ever seen in this game are 'good' quality, and I can't even begin to imagine how I would pursue getting something better as I have never seen any that seem like they could possibly be above that quality level. It's not clear if they exist at all, nor how one could obtain them. In my experience so far, asking Salarr for the best weapon they offer will not get you something of noteworthy quality. It'll get you something decent.

The principle behind the change is good, but it fixed a "flaw" that wasn't problematic. Characters with middling strength using above average or good weapons now do low damage and have no apparent way to get better weapons than that. Previously, they could "simulate" having higher strength by using weapons that had more damage than they should. No longer.

[Bogre]

The bug-fix doesn't change anything except for the poor-below avg strength elves. Your strength score has to be so small there would've been negatives in the damage roll. Which is a very small minority.

The problem still applies, and what Yelinak said is still 100% true.

Well, its actually probably the majority of elves, not just ones with poor or BA strength. Poor strength on an elf is abysmally low. And 'above average' strength on a human is markedly different from e-good+.

[LindseyBalboa]

Anything under VG for elves is not actually any good based on my experience playing them. Taking that a step further, I'm reasonably certain that unless you're topped out on strength as an elf, you pretty much just use the damage of the weapon (and if you are a non-combat elf or an elf without some massive muscles, I would suggest using the now-fixed two-handed weapon style over dual wielding).

This is as designed, though.

Help Elf:

Notes:     
   "Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak.  They possess other abilities
to compensate.  If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race."


What I would really like to see is elves given a combat bonus to offset the fact that strength rules combat code, to reflect the reality of that help file, and the reality of elves. While elves have not been technically nerfed, a lot of recent changes or fixes to the game have made it harder for an elf to survive today than previously by design or no, without reflecting the advantages that elves have in lore and in help files - like that of a pack mentality. The best suggestion I've come up with so far:

If two elves are attacking Opponent, then Opponent suffers a penalty as if they were being attacked by 4+ PCs; the penalty increases with more PCs just the same. This reflects that elves should really only be doing things in a pack, but also takes into account that there are a lot of d-elf tribes and places for elves and the playerbase is usually spread out over them. It doesn't strengthen any single elf, it encourages RP, and it gives elves a slight more balance in combat that makes sense.

[Patuk]

Elves don't outnumber humans. Not virtually, not among PCs, and city elves certainly don't outnumber anyone. Moreover, it isn't an elven advantage, because 'just outnumber them' is a tactic anyone can adopt. All in all, I dont think it is a good argument in the slightest.

[LindseyBalboa]

Elves don't outnumber humans. Not virtually, not among PCs, and city elves certainly don't outnumber anyone. Moreover, it isn't an elven advantage, because 'just outnumber them' is a tactic anyone can adopt. All in all, I dont think it is a good argument in the slightest.

Nothing was written about elves as a race outnumbering anyone; really, I'm not sure how that would be applicable to combat.

It's the teamwork by two elven tribe mates who trust each other implicitly that is applying a defense or some other penalty to the opponent. Whether or not it's the outnumbering formula or not isn't really a focus.