Over-emphasis on the wealthy?

[Clearsighted]

It seems to me that Armageddon, for all it's harsh and gritty atmosphere, seems to have a tremendous amount of emphasis on perhaps the top 0.1% of the population. I.E, the nobles, merchant houses and those that do their bidding.

Does anyone else believe that being an aide or underling or guard to a merchant house should be exceptional good fortune, and not the norm? It seems like if you want to play a dirty Zalanthan, you'll have to actively avoid opportunities to easily better yourself that any right-minded Zalanthan would leap at.

This isn't meant as criticism, just an observation. Do you think the game would be better with more emphasis on the privledged, or would be better if we had a more even representation? Right now, except for in certain organization (Such as the Byn), it is a case of more chiefs than indians. Or at least feels that way, since the players who tend to rise to those leadership positions tend to be the most reliable and long term.

Though to be honest, I think the main cities should've stayed Allanak, Luirs and Red Storm. I think we'd be better off with a more concentrated playerbase there than diffused and easy living spread out over Tuluk. Or if anything, Tuluk could've been an entirely NPC faction. (I know this will never happen, but it just shows how I personally lean). If Tuluk was cut out, the population in the Rinth, Nak, Luirs and Red Storm would all rise. All areas that really embody the theme.

I think the playerbase would have to be 2x or 3x the current size to do justice to the current top heavy spread.

[ale six]

I do think that the roles available to PCs are skewed in favor of the wealthy and privledged, as compared to what life for the "average" Zalanthan would be like.

However, at the same time, I think the game is this way because it's more fun to be playing people who have some power, influence, etc. You can affect more with plots in roles like those, get more stuff, rule more people, and so on.

The "average" Zalanthan probably spends each day keeping their head down, getting stepped on, maybe making a handful of coins per week and just barely squeaking by. He has no fancy clothes, no mount, no special skills, no magickal abilities, no powerful friends, and shares a tenement with probably several other people. That's as "gritty" as you can get, but boy it sure doesn't sound too exciting.

[amish overlord]

I view players at the exception of the rule of being poor and having sucky jobs. I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper! The PC population is a very small fraction of the actual population.

Amish Overlord  

[Clearsighted]

Well. I don't quite mean 'Bob the City Dungsweeper', but it'd be nice to see there be more guilds that cater to the commoners. I.E, I know they are open now, but with virtually anyone who seriously wants it guaranteed a noble or other wealthy slot (as there are so many to fill) that places like Red Storm or the 'Rinth become empty.

I guess there should be a point to where being chosen to work for a noble house should be a privledge and a stroke of great fortune. As it is, there seems a serious shortage of reliable 'manpower'.

I.E, all these Tuluki noble slots recently opened. Are there even enough commoner PCs up north to possibly be hired? It just seems Arm's playerbase is spread awfully thin.

[Rhyden]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

[James de Monet]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

Simple solution.  Make a half-elven merchant/scavenger.  Use your starting 'sid to buy a shovel and a broom.  Start sweeping.  

[Quirk]

However, at the same time, I think the game is this way because it's more fun to be playing people who have some power, influence, etc. You can affect more with plots in roles like those, get more stuff, rule more people, and so on.

Mmm, yes, but most PCs are ending up in low tiers of middle management in huge organisations.

I happen to think that playing in a city elf tribe, or the Amos & Amos Dune Trading Company, or the Freil's Rest Fire Insurance Agency (motto: "This building looks awfully flammable") has the potential to be a whole heap more fun than the lazy intrigues of the upper crust. There isn't as much of a safety net, so the stakes are higher.

Look closer at the Tuluk changes, though, Clearsighted. Nobles will not now have extended retinues but instead partisan-patron relationships will prevail. Having a noble patron is not guaranteed to be enough to feed you. Suddenly people are going to have to become more creative when it comes to employment. It's the perfect environment for small and gritty player-driven organisations to arise in, and if that's what you like, I'd be hastily drawing up some Tuluki character concepts.

[Marauder Moe]

It's true, but... the political stuff is fun.  If we truly wanted the playerbase to represent the actual Zalanthan demographics, half of us would be playing labor slaves.

[Agent_137]

We don't have enough population to properly fill out the world, clearsighted. I agree. And tuluk is definitely the least "Armageddonish" popluation base. So I see where you are coming from.

But, bottom line is, some people like plots, thus politics, and others like believable characters, thus dung sweepers and bynners. If you start forcing people who want to politck into a byn trooper role, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less. better they are a templar that is paying the byn unit to go get themseleves killed, that way it's a PC doing it and not an Immortal.

So the best solution is twofold:
A: make a dwarf with the focus of destroying tuluk, again.
B: Get more people to play.

[Cyrian20]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

I am!

[Cuusardo]

We really needed another "I hate Tuluk" thread.  Really.  :roll:

[Janna]

We really needed another "I hate Tuluk" thread. Really.

[spawnloser]

Anyone that says that Tuluk does not represent Arm's theme, I feel, doesn't understand Tuluk.  That's the first thing I have to say.

Next, if people stopped creating every character with the looks of a supermodel (male or female) and started creating dirty, ugly commoners, we'd see less of them getting hired.

Third, nobles are only allowed so many employees, from what I understand.  They're not hiring everyone...and there should be some form of competition for those jobs.

[Quirk]

But, bottom line is, some people like plots, thus politics, and others like believable characters, thus dung sweepers and bynners. If you start forcing people who want to politck into a byn trooper role, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less.

To play Devil's Advocate: I'd argue that if you force people who want to play politics into a low-ranking Merchant House management post instead of letting them really make waves with a smaller organisation, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less.

You don't get more plots by shepherding people into huge organisations. You get stability, but stability and plots are uneasy bedfellows.

To quote a Rindan post from many moons ago:

If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.

By all means argue the case for player characters in silks and high class intrigue, but please don't claim that the upper crust have more plots and more politicking, or even more interesting plots and politicking.

You agreed when Rindan last said what he said here, after all: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=65854&highlight=plots#65854

(and, by way of an addendum, I'd just like to reiterate that I think what the imms are doing with Tuluk will in time go a long way to address Rindan's concerns - it's just that we currently have a bit of a lack of small-to-mid-sized clans).

[Gimfalisette]

It seems to me that Armageddon, for all it's harsh and gritty atmosphere, seems to have a tremendous amount of emphasis on perhaps the top 0.1% of the population. I.E, the nobles, merchant houses and those that do their bidding.

Templars, nobles, and merchant family members are the major plot-drivers (as far as PCs go) of the game. People who fill these roles are expected to keep other PCs engaged with things to do, people to see, and places to go. For example: Who hires the Byn? It's not Amos the Streetsweeper...it's Joram Fale. Who puts on a war? Your friendly local templars. Who hosts a bardic competition, or a festival, or any kind of RPT? Again, it's those templars, nobles, and merchant family members who do these things.

If you look at the numbers, assuming you've got 6 nobles and 4 templars active in each city-state, and 2 merchant family members active per family in each city-state, that's 32 PCs. That seems like a lot, until you take it in the context of the fact that, in a normal week, there are over 300 players logging in to this MUD. Last week, for example, 337 players logged in: http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=42&year=2006  So this huge number of upper-crusty characters is less than 10% of the PCs in the game. Is that out of proportion with the game world? Yeah, it is...however, as Marauder Moe pointed out above, PCs are already wildly out of proportion with the game world since half of us aren't playing slaves.

So we've got the fact that upper-crusty characters need to design and drive the plots that keep the rest of the playerbase entertained. And we've got the fact that these upper-crusty characters comprise less than 10% of the PC populace. Add in the fact that, as we all know, some of these players do not have a lot of availability to play, or that playtime fluctuates, or that some of them may not be all that good at driving plots and getting other PCs involved (AKA leadership)...Considering all this, do I think that we've got an overemphasis on the more wealthy characters? No, actually, I don't. I think it's just about right.

Or if anything, Tuluk could've been an entirely NPC faction.

Do you really think that inter-city conflict would be interesting at all if there weren't PCs driving the other side of it? What you're proposing here is that inter-city conflict be taken out of the players' hands and put in the imms' hands, more than it already is. I've played games where there was no player-driven conflict, or where the conflict wasn't "real", and frankly...it's fucking boring.

If Tuluk was cut out, the population in the Rinth, Nak, Luirs and Red Storm would all rise. All areas that really embody the theme.

This is an oft-seen fallacy on these boards, and most often phrased exactly as you've done: "If only Tuluk was gone, we'd have more players in Allanak." But the logic doesn't work.

1. You assume that Allanak and Tuluk are equivalent choices, and that players choose Tuluk only because the hunting/living is easier. But in truth, Allanak and Tuluk are vastly different in culture.

2. You assume that players have only two choices: Allanak OR Tuluk. But actually, players have a lot of other choices. For example, to play rogue magickers, tribal humans, desert elves, or any of the other non-city choices. Or to go play on a different MUD. Or to stop playing MUDs altogether. Or to go play on an MMO, or a MUSH.

The fact is, there are players who love Allanak and would hate playing in Tuluk, and if the option of Allanak was taken away they might stop playing ARM. The same is true of Tuluk...there are players who love playing in Tuluk and who are not attracted to playing in Allanak at all.

Less choice in this game world would NOT necessarily lead to more PCs where you'd like to see them.

As to Tuluk not "embodying the theme"  :roll:

[mansa]

I highly suggest playing a tribal human in one of the coded tribes.

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/tribal.php

It lets you discover the desert world and gets you away from the politics of nobility.

[Chronicle]

Just adding my two cents - but I currently play in a northern merchant house and we've actually been given the cease fire on hiring any and all personell since the house was -full-. Now that we -need- to hire some in game, we can't find any...let's think about that. We -can't find any- potential employees...in Tuluk...I guess it's not so populated with people who want to play in merchant houses as everyone thinks. On top of that, perhaps they just don't want to get paid the whopping 500 sid a month, yeah that'll buy you -all your dream shit-, that's barely enough to live on if you were on your own.

[spawnloser]

500/month is plenty when you get free food, water and a place to stay, not to mention store your stuff.  That 500/month is money to spend as you see fit.

Independents have to either carry their entire world on their back or find a place to rent.  They have to buy all their own food and water, that or hunt/find it on their own.

[Clearsighted]

1) I hardly think that stating Tuluk is dramatically different thematically is an eyerolling comment. Considering the entire game world is like, half the size of southern California, if that, and one part is this desert wasteland and the other is...a forest. I really think Tuluk would've been better as an NPC faction to show how it contrasts with the gritty 'PC world' of Nak. I.E, they're supposed to be the bad guys, but they're the ones living so easily with such an artistic culture. I also think that having them be an entirely NPC faction would've worked just fine, if not better. I mean, what is seriously the culmination of most PC vs PC conflicts? 'order guard kill man'

2) As for all the politicking and arranging events. Maybe. I doubt that your average noble or even templar does much more than an active Byn sergeant. Don't get me wrong. It's good to have nobles and definitely good to have Templars, but there is alot of them. And those slots are often filled by the best and brightest. Which makes a very top heavy caste system. There is plenty of 'politcking' to be done that isn't noble based. In fact, I'd say that the politicking that does go on these days that isn't noble based (how little of it exists) is alot more exciting.

3) Not only would removing Tuluk and some extraneous noble houses and such condense the playerbase, that in itself would promote growth. You have to realize that the concept of 'solo RP' is pretty much unique to Armageddon. The fact that it is taken so seriously here is amazing. There's plenty of people whom are great roleplayers and very responsible that will never want to solo RP or stick around once they find their niche of Armageddon mostly abandoned. In fact, I'd say the more spread out the playerbase is, the harder it is for each new player to acclimate, and the more noticable it is when each old player quits.

4) It would dramatically improve the economy. Sids are so easy to come by in this game, unless you deliberately restrict yourself to certain forms of income and actively avoid all others, that wealth is basically a cliche. If you're moderately well informed, there is nothing very alluring about working for a noble house since you can make much more on your own.

And I'd just like to reiterate (and this won't be a surprise to anyone) that the 10% of the population base that makes up nobles and templars? Well. I'd say only 10% of /them/ really contribute anything meaningful and far reaching beyond the usual 'be my aide now go buy an apartment and silk dress'. And those that do? Well. They tend to do it with significant staff assistance. For every person that chooses these roles for the opportunity to enhance the game world, three others choose them for the knee-jerk compulsion to be powerful or wealthy.

Frankly, I'd like to see there be LESS nobles and templars (4 in each city-state is a bit much), and have there be MORE 'middle class' types. I.E, like merchant house families. And continuing that, I'd like to see a real emphasis on getting lower middle clans like in Red Storm and the 'Rinth going. And yes, I know the usual 'they're there'...But to be honest, the clans that do well are the clans that are repeatedly and aggressively promoted by staff. And the noble houses are that.

EDIT: And I agree that 500 a month being looked down upon as a paltry sum is rediculous. But if anything, it is represenative of how broken the economy is right now when you could take a glasshacker and make more in an afternoon.

[Forty Winks]

As to Tuluk not "embodying the theme"  :roll:

Yeah...I'm going to have to say you don't know half of Tuluk if you think that -but-...I'm actually starting to think Tuluk could use more crimes. Not the crap from pointless PC deaths or theft, but -true- art crimes like the Italian Job. -Then- Tuluk would be complete.  :roll:

Just adding my two cents - but I currently play in a northern merchant house and we've actually been given the cease fire on hiring any and all personell since the house was -full-. Now that we -need- to hire some in game, we can't find any...let's think about that. We -can't find any- potential employees...in Tuluk...I guess it's not so populated with people who want to play in merchant houses as everyone thinks.

Playing a northerner currently, my character hasn't really gotten any news of any hiring in the merchant houses besides the casual conversation tidbits. There's always people around that can get hired, sometimes more than others, but if the word isn't spread actively I'm not surprised that a house wouldn't have enough employees. Same goes for all other civilizations.

[Clearsighted]

Oh, I don't know half of Tuluk. Heh. I know enough. What is most likely is that our conceptions of what Armageddon is thematically are somewhat different. When I think of Zalanthas thematically, I think of Allanak brutality, the 'rinth, the salt flats, or Red Storm. You know, a place where wood is 'rare'.

Then Tuluk is a day and a half to the north, and a fricken paradise.

[Forty Winks]

Oh, I don't know half of Tuluk. Heh. I know enough. What is most likely is that our conceptions of what Armageddon is thematically are somewhat different. When I think of Zalanthas thematically, I think of Allanak brutality, the 'rinth, the salt flats, or Red Storm. You know, a place where wood is 'rare'.

Then Tuluk is a day and a half to the north, and a fricken paradise.

I was being abit sarcastic when I made that statement of not knowing half of Tuluk, but in any case, I'll agree somewhat to what you are saying. The thing is, there are plots and character concepts that could be played in Allanak perfectly, but wouldn't fit at all within Tuluk, and vice versa. The differences that sets the two city-states apart also cater to different playing styles and preferences. If people want to play Allanak, they can have that choice to play the hard and gritty, but -forcing- them to choose Allanak or another location shouldn't, and isn't, the best alternative. Quite frankly, it's up to the player to decide if they want to play in Allanak or Tuluk, and eliminating an option isn't solving anything other than weeding out players.

[spawnloser]

Tuluk is not a forest.  There is SCRUB forest outside the gates...inhabited by little people with ninja-like reflexes and a taste for everyone else's flesh.  Yeah, sounds like a paradise to me.

...

Seriously, read the room descriptions around Tuluk.  It's still a dry, edge-of-the-desert sort of place, hardly a lush, tropical utopia.  Tuluk is just as fascist as Allanak, just in a different way.  Trust me on this, I've been on the receiving end of the fascist stick in both places.  What you don't see in Tuluk is what should scare you...not what you do see, like in Allanak.

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I don't care about Tuluk vs. Allanak and all that. Nor do I really care about the top-heavy layout of the game. It's a little silly for someone who isn't employed by a noble/merchant house to be abnormal, but whatever...

But I definitely think the idea of condensing the playerbase has merit. If it were up to me, we'd close all but a few tribals (okay, if it were really up to me, we'd have none of them, but...) and cut back on noble House militaries - I mean, really, does anyone other than Tor -need- military in the south? I bet we'd see a load more T'Zai Byn contracts if noble Houses didn't all have their own personal warriors. For that matter, the top-heaviness would shift. No more 1-2 House guards for 4 different Houses all trying to recruit. We would see more mercenaries, contract hunters, etc...

Cropping some of the dead, dying, or useless limbs to condense the playerbase is a wonderful idea. I don't think we have the playerbase to support a lot of what we have, as good ideas as many of the things may be. The more people who are in one area, the more politicking, backstabbing, deal breaking, negotiating, and all that fun stuff we can have.

[LoD]

I also think that having them be an entirely NPC faction would've worked just fine, if not better. I mean, what is seriously the culmination of most PC vs PC conflicts? 'order guard kill man'.

I hardly believe that the culmination of most PC vs. PC conflicts is an execution by the hand of an NPC.  Moreover, what fun is playing a game against a computer?  The most rewarding experience this game has to offer is the chance to interact with players assuming and maintaining different roles with which yours can interact on nearly every level.  Having the people considered your "enemy" motivated and animated by intelligent players, not Imms, will provide your best environment.

Players have the luxury of devoting 100% of their play time to the character.  Their singular personality, aspirations, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, strengths, needs and hopes are embodied by an imperfect and unpredictable mind.  Characters working pro-actively toward their own wants and needs will always present a more challenging and interesting encounter, especially when those wants and needs run counter to your own.  Run by the hand of the Immortals, an NPC nation, as you suggest, would suffer the serious disadvantage of being represented predominantly by minds conflicted by time commitments, OOC knowledge, and overloaded plates.  

Even worse when considering a all-NPC nation, the very nature of an Immortal's place in the game as an administrator demands they delegate the workload to those that can best handle the sometimes menial and certainly time consuming tasks that comprimse a working civilization to the players while they lend guidance and aid during crucial moments and interactions.  Without these players providing the necessary fuel to make the machine work, you're left with encounters that would often feel scripted or forced, as if tracing the movements of a famous Chess match already played instead of selecting the moves in the moment.  This is not because the Immortals couldn't provide the necessary vitality and energy to the role, but because those activities would require too much of their time.

But to be honest, the clans that do well are the clans that are repeatedly and aggressively promoted by staff. And the noble houses are that.

The clans that do well are the clans that are led well by players.  Immortals have limits to their time and energy as well as their ability to handle the daily activities of keeping a clan moving.  They can recruit OOCly, they can provide support, but they might as well be a player if they believe that they'll be "leading" a given clan.  Thus, the clans that prosper most are those that are anchored by a tandem of a successful player leader and a supportive, guiding Immortal.

Nobles and Templars likely do not comprise the majority of the game's players at any given time.  More ikely they are an acute minority with a great amount of IC power and influence.  Their presence may seem exaggerated because of that power, but if you play one, you'll find that they, too, have severe limits on what is easily accomplished.

It would be my opinion that the reason one might perceive an inflated number of "upper crust" chatacters is because they are visible, normally stable, and heavily recruited.  Independant hunters, miners, mercenaries, tribal elves, travellers, and other such roles are generally the province of players either new to the game, or wise to what they consider its rules.  Players that have learned ways to make coin far greater than what the Houses and menial organizations offer make the choice to accumulate it, at any rate possible - even if unrealistic or borderline abusive.  Players that believe they've mastered the syntax of the game allow their  characters to improve quickly in their skills, avoid the common dangers of the game, and move quickly toward meeting their own personal criteria for "success".

It isn't that the common man is under represented, but that the choice to play them is made more often by those players who may not yet have a grasp of or a desire to contribute to the story as often as those selected/recruited to play on the high end of things.  The average day of a common man is also more dangerous, with a higher rate of turnover and the need to leave areas with a high degree of visibility.  There was a time when there were probably 25 active players in the T'zai-Byn, but other players might have never seen 75% of them because they were either behind the compound walls or outside the city's at any given time.

There have been many threads calling for the destruction of Tuluk, the removal of desert tribes, the closing of Noble Houses, and the shrinking of the gameworld to meet the assumed needs of the playerbase rather than hoping for our playerbase to one day meet the needs of the gameworld.

I will always prefer the latter.

-LoD