Over-emphasis on the wealthy?

[Clearsighted]

It seems to me that Armageddon, for all it's harsh and gritty atmosphere, seems to have a tremendous amount of emphasis on perhaps the top 0.1% of the population. I.E, the nobles, merchant houses and those that do their bidding.

Does anyone else believe that being an aide or underling or guard to a merchant house should be exceptional good fortune, and not the norm? It seems like if you want to play a dirty Zalanthan, you'll have to actively avoid opportunities to easily better yourself that any right-minded Zalanthan would leap at.

This isn't meant as criticism, just an observation. Do you think the game would be better with more emphasis on the privledged, or would be better if we had a more even representation? Right now, except for in certain organization (Such as the Byn), it is a case of more chiefs than indians. Or at least feels that way, since the players who tend to rise to those leadership positions tend to be the most reliable and long term.

Though to be honest, I think the main cities should've stayed Allanak, Luirs and Red Storm. I think we'd be better off with a more concentrated playerbase there than diffused and easy living spread out over Tuluk. Or if anything, Tuluk could've been an entirely NPC faction. (I know this will never happen, but it just shows how I personally lean). If Tuluk was cut out, the population in the Rinth, Nak, Luirs and Red Storm would all rise. All areas that really embody the theme.

I think the playerbase would have to be 2x or 3x the current size to do justice to the current top heavy spread.

[ale six]

I do think that the roles available to PCs are skewed in favor of the wealthy and privledged, as compared to what life for the "average" Zalanthan would be like.

However, at the same time, I think the game is this way because it's more fun to be playing people who have some power, influence, etc. You can affect more with plots in roles like those, get more stuff, rule more people, and so on.

The "average" Zalanthan probably spends each day keeping their head down, getting stepped on, maybe making a handful of coins per week and just barely squeaking by. He has no fancy clothes, no mount, no special skills, no magickal abilities, no powerful friends, and shares a tenement with probably several other people. That's as "gritty" as you can get, but boy it sure doesn't sound too exciting.

[amish overlord]

I view players at the exception of the rule of being poor and having sucky jobs. I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper! The PC population is a very small fraction of the actual population.

Amish Overlord  

[Clearsighted]

Well. I don't quite mean 'Bob the City Dungsweeper', but it'd be nice to see there be more guilds that cater to the commoners. I.E, I know they are open now, but with virtually anyone who seriously wants it guaranteed a noble or other wealthy slot (as there are so many to fill) that places like Red Storm or the 'Rinth become empty.

I guess there should be a point to where being chosen to work for a noble house should be a privledge and a stroke of great fortune. As it is, there seems a serious shortage of reliable 'manpower'.

I.E, all these Tuluki noble slots recently opened. Are there even enough commoner PCs up north to possibly be hired? It just seems Arm's playerbase is spread awfully thin.

[Rhyden]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

[James de Monet]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

Simple solution.  Make a half-elven merchant/scavenger.  Use your starting 'sid to buy a shovel and a broom.  Start sweeping.  

[Quirk]

However, at the same time, I think the game is this way because it's more fun to be playing people who have some power, influence, etc. You can affect more with plots in roles like those, get more stuff, rule more people, and so on.

Mmm, yes, but most PCs are ending up in low tiers of middle management in huge organisations.

I happen to think that playing in a city elf tribe, or the Amos & Amos Dune Trading Company, or the Freil's Rest Fire Insurance Agency (motto: "This building looks awfully flammable") has the potential to be a whole heap more fun than the lazy intrigues of the upper crust. There isn't as much of a safety net, so the stakes are higher.

Look closer at the Tuluk changes, though, Clearsighted. Nobles will not now have extended retinues but instead partisan-patron relationships will prevail. Having a noble patron is not guaranteed to be enough to feed you. Suddenly people are going to have to become more creative when it comes to employment. It's the perfect environment for small and gritty player-driven organisations to arise in, and if that's what you like, I'd be hastily drawing up some Tuluki character concepts.

[Marauder Moe]

It's true, but... the political stuff is fun.  If we truly wanted the playerbase to represent the actual Zalanthan demographics, half of us would be playing labor slaves.

[Agent_137]

We don't have enough population to properly fill out the world, clearsighted. I agree. And tuluk is definitely the least "Armageddonish" popluation base. So I see where you are coming from.

But, bottom line is, some people like plots, thus politics, and others like believable characters, thus dung sweepers and bynners. If you start forcing people who want to politck into a byn trooper role, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less. better they are a templar that is paying the byn unit to go get themseleves killed, that way it's a PC doing it and not an Immortal.

So the best solution is twofold:
A: make a dwarf with the focus of destroying tuluk, again.
B: Get more people to play.

[Cyrian20]

I doubt there are many players who want to play bob the city dungsweeper!

I do!

I am!

[Cuusardo]

We really needed another "I hate Tuluk" thread.  Really.  :roll:

[Janna]

We really needed another "I hate Tuluk" thread. Really.

[spawnloser]

Anyone that says that Tuluk does not represent Arm's theme, I feel, doesn't understand Tuluk.  That's the first thing I have to say.

Next, if people stopped creating every character with the looks of a supermodel (male or female) and started creating dirty, ugly commoners, we'd see less of them getting hired.

Third, nobles are only allowed so many employees, from what I understand.  They're not hiring everyone...and there should be some form of competition for those jobs.

[Quirk]

But, bottom line is, some people like plots, thus politics, and others like believable characters, thus dung sweepers and bynners. If you start forcing people who want to politck into a byn trooper role, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less.

To play Devil's Advocate: I'd argue that if you force people who want to play politics into a low-ranking Merchant House management post instead of letting them really make waves with a smaller organisation, they'll have a damn hard time politicking, and then enjoy the game less.

You don't get more plots by shepherding people into huge organisations. You get stability, but stability and plots are uneasy bedfellows.

To quote a Rindan post from many moons ago:

If the entire game suddenly vanished so that the only place you could play was the 'rinth, as an elf, and no one could leave, I promise you that the conflict in the game would skyrocket, even though the collective will of the players couldn't do a single thing to really change the world.

By all means argue the case for player characters in silks and high class intrigue, but please don't claim that the upper crust have more plots and more politicking, or even more interesting plots and politicking.

You agreed when Rindan last said what he said here, after all: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=65854&highlight=plots#65854

(and, by way of an addendum, I'd just like to reiterate that I think what the imms are doing with Tuluk will in time go a long way to address Rindan's concerns - it's just that we currently have a bit of a lack of small-to-mid-sized clans).

[Gimfalisette]

It seems to me that Armageddon, for all it's harsh and gritty atmosphere, seems to have a tremendous amount of emphasis on perhaps the top 0.1% of the population. I.E, the nobles, merchant houses and those that do their bidding.

Templars, nobles, and merchant family members are the major plot-drivers (as far as PCs go) of the game. People who fill these roles are expected to keep other PCs engaged with things to do, people to see, and places to go. For example: Who hires the Byn? It's not Amos the Streetsweeper...it's Joram Fale. Who puts on a war? Your friendly local templars. Who hosts a bardic competition, or a festival, or any kind of RPT? Again, it's those templars, nobles, and merchant family members who do these things.

If you look at the numbers, assuming you've got 6 nobles and 4 templars active in each city-state, and 2 merchant family members active per family in each city-state, that's 32 PCs. That seems like a lot, until you take it in the context of the fact that, in a normal week, there are over 300 players logging in to this MUD. Last week, for example, 337 players logged in: http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=42&year=2006  So this huge number of upper-crusty characters is less than 10% of the PCs in the game. Is that out of proportion with the game world? Yeah, it is...however, as Marauder Moe pointed out above, PCs are already wildly out of proportion with the game world since half of us aren't playing slaves.

So we've got the fact that upper-crusty characters need to design and drive the plots that keep the rest of the playerbase entertained. And we've got the fact that these upper-crusty characters comprise less than 10% of the PC populace. Add in the fact that, as we all know, some of these players do not have a lot of availability to play, or that playtime fluctuates, or that some of them may not be all that good at driving plots and getting other PCs involved (AKA leadership)...Considering all this, do I think that we've got an overemphasis on the more wealthy characters? No, actually, I don't. I think it's just about right.

Or if anything, Tuluk could've been an entirely NPC faction.

Do you really think that inter-city conflict would be interesting at all if there weren't PCs driving the other side of it? What you're proposing here is that inter-city conflict be taken out of the players' hands and put in the imms' hands, more than it already is. I've played games where there was no player-driven conflict, or where the conflict wasn't "real", and frankly...it's fucking boring.

If Tuluk was cut out, the population in the Rinth, Nak, Luirs and Red Storm would all rise. All areas that really embody the theme.

This is an oft-seen fallacy on these boards, and most often phrased exactly as you've done: "If only Tuluk was gone, we'd have more players in Allanak." But the logic doesn't work.

1. You assume that Allanak and Tuluk are equivalent choices, and that players choose Tuluk only because the hunting/living is easier. But in truth, Allanak and Tuluk are vastly different in culture.

2. You assume that players have only two choices: Allanak OR Tuluk. But actually, players have a lot of other choices. For example, to play rogue magickers, tribal humans, desert elves, or any of the other non-city choices. Or to go play on a different MUD. Or to stop playing MUDs altogether. Or to go play on an MMO, or a MUSH.

The fact is, there are players who love Allanak and would hate playing in Tuluk, and if the option of Allanak was taken away they might stop playing ARM. The same is true of Tuluk...there are players who love playing in Tuluk and who are not attracted to playing in Allanak at all.

Less choice in this game world would NOT necessarily lead to more PCs where you'd like to see them.

As to Tuluk not "embodying the theme"  :roll:

[mansa]

I highly suggest playing a tribal human in one of the coded tribes.

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/tribal.php

It lets you discover the desert world and gets you away from the politics of nobility.

[Chronicle]

Just adding my two cents - but I currently play in a northern merchant house and we've actually been given the cease fire on hiring any and all personell since the house was -full-. Now that we -need- to hire some in game, we can't find any...let's think about that. We -can't find any- potential employees...in Tuluk...I guess it's not so populated with people who want to play in merchant houses as everyone thinks. On top of that, perhaps they just don't want to get paid the whopping 500 sid a month, yeah that'll buy you -all your dream shit-, that's barely enough to live on if you were on your own.

[spawnloser]

500/month is plenty when you get free food, water and a place to stay, not to mention store your stuff.  That 500/month is money to spend as you see fit.

Independents have to either carry their entire world on their back or find a place to rent.  They have to buy all their own food and water, that or hunt/find it on their own.

[Clearsighted]

1) I hardly think that stating Tuluk is dramatically different thematically is an eyerolling comment. Considering the entire game world is like, half the size of southern California, if that, and one part is this desert wasteland and the other is...a forest. I really think Tuluk would've been better as an NPC faction to show how it contrasts with the gritty 'PC world' of Nak. I.E, they're supposed to be the bad guys, but they're the ones living so easily with such an artistic culture. I also think that having them be an entirely NPC faction would've worked just fine, if not better. I mean, what is seriously the culmination of most PC vs PC conflicts? 'order guard kill man'

2) As for all the politicking and arranging events. Maybe. I doubt that your average noble or even templar does much more than an active Byn sergeant. Don't get me wrong. It's good to have nobles and definitely good to have Templars, but there is alot of them. And those slots are often filled by the best and brightest. Which makes a very top heavy caste system. There is plenty of 'politcking' to be done that isn't noble based. In fact, I'd say that the politicking that does go on these days that isn't noble based (how little of it exists) is alot more exciting.

3) Not only would removing Tuluk and some extraneous noble houses and such condense the playerbase, that in itself would promote growth. You have to realize that the concept of 'solo RP' is pretty much unique to Armageddon. The fact that it is taken so seriously here is amazing. There's plenty of people whom are great roleplayers and very responsible that will never want to solo RP or stick around once they find their niche of Armageddon mostly abandoned. In fact, I'd say the more spread out the playerbase is, the harder it is for each new player to acclimate, and the more noticable it is when each old player quits.

4) It would dramatically improve the economy. Sids are so easy to come by in this game, unless you deliberately restrict yourself to certain forms of income and actively avoid all others, that wealth is basically a cliche. If you're moderately well informed, there is nothing very alluring about working for a noble house since you can make much more on your own.

And I'd just like to reiterate (and this won't be a surprise to anyone) that the 10% of the population base that makes up nobles and templars? Well. I'd say only 10% of /them/ really contribute anything meaningful and far reaching beyond the usual 'be my aide now go buy an apartment and silk dress'. And those that do? Well. They tend to do it with significant staff assistance. For every person that chooses these roles for the opportunity to enhance the game world, three others choose them for the knee-jerk compulsion to be powerful or wealthy.

Frankly, I'd like to see there be LESS nobles and templars (4 in each city-state is a bit much), and have there be MORE 'middle class' types. I.E, like merchant house families. And continuing that, I'd like to see a real emphasis on getting lower middle clans like in Red Storm and the 'Rinth going. And yes, I know the usual 'they're there'...But to be honest, the clans that do well are the clans that are repeatedly and aggressively promoted by staff. And the noble houses are that.

EDIT: And I agree that 500 a month being looked down upon as a paltry sum is rediculous. But if anything, it is represenative of how broken the economy is right now when you could take a glasshacker and make more in an afternoon.

[Forty Winks]

As to Tuluk not "embodying the theme"  :roll:

Yeah...I'm going to have to say you don't know half of Tuluk if you think that -but-...I'm actually starting to think Tuluk could use more crimes. Not the crap from pointless PC deaths or theft, but -true- art crimes like the Italian Job. -Then- Tuluk would be complete.  :roll:

Just adding my two cents - but I currently play in a northern merchant house and we've actually been given the cease fire on hiring any and all personell since the house was -full-. Now that we -need- to hire some in game, we can't find any...let's think about that. We -can't find any- potential employees...in Tuluk...I guess it's not so populated with people who want to play in merchant houses as everyone thinks.

Playing a northerner currently, my character hasn't really gotten any news of any hiring in the merchant houses besides the casual conversation tidbits. There's always people around that can get hired, sometimes more than others, but if the word isn't spread actively I'm not surprised that a house wouldn't have enough employees. Same goes for all other civilizations.

[Clearsighted]

Oh, I don't know half of Tuluk. Heh. I know enough. What is most likely is that our conceptions of what Armageddon is thematically are somewhat different. When I think of Zalanthas thematically, I think of Allanak brutality, the 'rinth, the salt flats, or Red Storm. You know, a place where wood is 'rare'.

Then Tuluk is a day and a half to the north, and a fricken paradise.

[Forty Winks]

Oh, I don't know half of Tuluk. Heh. I know enough. What is most likely is that our conceptions of what Armageddon is thematically are somewhat different. When I think of Zalanthas thematically, I think of Allanak brutality, the 'rinth, the salt flats, or Red Storm. You know, a place where wood is 'rare'.

Then Tuluk is a day and a half to the north, and a fricken paradise.

I was being abit sarcastic when I made that statement of not knowing half of Tuluk, but in any case, I'll agree somewhat to what you are saying. The thing is, there are plots and character concepts that could be played in Allanak perfectly, but wouldn't fit at all within Tuluk, and vice versa. The differences that sets the two city-states apart also cater to different playing styles and preferences. If people want to play Allanak, they can have that choice to play the hard and gritty, but -forcing- them to choose Allanak or another location shouldn't, and isn't, the best alternative. Quite frankly, it's up to the player to decide if they want to play in Allanak or Tuluk, and eliminating an option isn't solving anything other than weeding out players.

[spawnloser]

Tuluk is not a forest.  There is SCRUB forest outside the gates...inhabited by little people with ninja-like reflexes and a taste for everyone else's flesh.  Yeah, sounds like a paradise to me.

...

Seriously, read the room descriptions around Tuluk.  It's still a dry, edge-of-the-desert sort of place, hardly a lush, tropical utopia.  Tuluk is just as fascist as Allanak, just in a different way.  Trust me on this, I've been on the receiving end of the fascist stick in both places.  What you don't see in Tuluk is what should scare you...not what you do see, like in Allanak.

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I don't care about Tuluk vs. Allanak and all that. Nor do I really care about the top-heavy layout of the game. It's a little silly for someone who isn't employed by a noble/merchant house to be abnormal, but whatever...

But I definitely think the idea of condensing the playerbase has merit. If it were up to me, we'd close all but a few tribals (okay, if it were really up to me, we'd have none of them, but...) and cut back on noble House militaries - I mean, really, does anyone other than Tor -need- military in the south? I bet we'd see a load more T'Zai Byn contracts if noble Houses didn't all have their own personal warriors. For that matter, the top-heaviness would shift. No more 1-2 House guards for 4 different Houses all trying to recruit. We would see more mercenaries, contract hunters, etc...

Cropping some of the dead, dying, or useless limbs to condense the playerbase is a wonderful idea. I don't think we have the playerbase to support a lot of what we have, as good ideas as many of the things may be. The more people who are in one area, the more politicking, backstabbing, deal breaking, negotiating, and all that fun stuff we can have.

[LoD]

I also think that having them be an entirely NPC faction would've worked just fine, if not better. I mean, what is seriously the culmination of most PC vs PC conflicts? 'order guard kill man'.

I hardly believe that the culmination of most PC vs. PC conflicts is an execution by the hand of an NPC.  Moreover, what fun is playing a game against a computer?  The most rewarding experience this game has to offer is the chance to interact with players assuming and maintaining different roles with which yours can interact on nearly every level.  Having the people considered your "enemy" motivated and animated by intelligent players, not Imms, will provide your best environment.

Players have the luxury of devoting 100% of their play time to the character.  Their singular personality, aspirations, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, strengths, needs and hopes are embodied by an imperfect and unpredictable mind.  Characters working pro-actively toward their own wants and needs will always present a more challenging and interesting encounter, especially when those wants and needs run counter to your own.  Run by the hand of the Immortals, an NPC nation, as you suggest, would suffer the serious disadvantage of being represented predominantly by minds conflicted by time commitments, OOC knowledge, and overloaded plates.  

Even worse when considering a all-NPC nation, the very nature of an Immortal's place in the game as an administrator demands they delegate the workload to those that can best handle the sometimes menial and certainly time consuming tasks that comprimse a working civilization to the players while they lend guidance and aid during crucial moments and interactions.  Without these players providing the necessary fuel to make the machine work, you're left with encounters that would often feel scripted or forced, as if tracing the movements of a famous Chess match already played instead of selecting the moves in the moment.  This is not because the Immortals couldn't provide the necessary vitality and energy to the role, but because those activities would require too much of their time.

But to be honest, the clans that do well are the clans that are repeatedly and aggressively promoted by staff. And the noble houses are that.

The clans that do well are the clans that are led well by players.  Immortals have limits to their time and energy as well as their ability to handle the daily activities of keeping a clan moving.  They can recruit OOCly, they can provide support, but they might as well be a player if they believe that they'll be "leading" a given clan.  Thus, the clans that prosper most are those that are anchored by a tandem of a successful player leader and a supportive, guiding Immortal.

Nobles and Templars likely do not comprise the majority of the game's players at any given time.  More ikely they are an acute minority with a great amount of IC power and influence.  Their presence may seem exaggerated because of that power, but if you play one, you'll find that they, too, have severe limits on what is easily accomplished.

It would be my opinion that the reason one might perceive an inflated number of "upper crust" chatacters is because they are visible, normally stable, and heavily recruited.  Independant hunters, miners, mercenaries, tribal elves, travellers, and other such roles are generally the province of players either new to the game, or wise to what they consider its rules.  Players that have learned ways to make coin far greater than what the Houses and menial organizations offer make the choice to accumulate it, at any rate possible - even if unrealistic or borderline abusive.  Players that believe they've mastered the syntax of the game allow their  characters to improve quickly in their skills, avoid the common dangers of the game, and move quickly toward meeting their own personal criteria for "success".

It isn't that the common man is under represented, but that the choice to play them is made more often by those players who may not yet have a grasp of or a desire to contribute to the story as often as those selected/recruited to play on the high end of things.  The average day of a common man is also more dangerous, with a higher rate of turnover and the need to leave areas with a high degree of visibility.  There was a time when there were probably 25 active players in the T'zai-Byn, but other players might have never seen 75% of them because they were either behind the compound walls or outside the city's at any given time.

There have been many threads calling for the destruction of Tuluk, the removal of desert tribes, the closing of Noble Houses, and the shrinking of the gameworld to meet the assumed needs of the playerbase rather than hoping for our playerbase to one day meet the needs of the gameworld.

I will always prefer the latter.

-LoD

[Clearsighted]

Well. If the playerbase was condensed, it would likely grow dramatically. The more people are around, the more emphasis there is to be involved.

[Janna]

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/overview.html

That link will take you directly to what the staff and creators of the game consider the overall theme. Please note that it mentions that both are harsh enviroments and both fit in with the 'theme'.

As for my two sids worth without getting into any IC sensitive info, I have to completely disagree with Clearsighted. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and this is only mine. I've played both sides of the map for quite some time with various characters all ranking in what they did and how much power they had/have. Is Allanak more harsh then Tuluk? Visibly, yes. But only visibly. If one were to dig deeper into the Tuluki backdrop, you would find it to be every bit as harsh (some cases more so) then that of Allanak.

As for having Tuluk run by the Imms...Um, no. I think that would be very bad and would take away greatly from the game. (See LoD response) Not having a living, thinking opponent to face off against if we all lived in Allanak would be so incredibly boring and pointless I will not even comment further. Again, IMO.

As for the notion that cutting down the Noble houses and clans and so on would help build the player base? I truly don't see how. By limiting peoples choices of what/how/who and where to play, you would quickly find people losing interest and running out of ideas for new and unique characters which is what drive almost every story line there is outside of the massive HRPT's put on by the staff.

Lastly, as for the (purpose?) of this post being that the upper crust is put bluntly somehow taking away from the game, please see Gimfalisette's response. There is such a small slot for Nobles and Templars versus the much larger number of 'Joe' characters that if in either city two of four said templars or nobles have time restraints on play time or whatever the case may be, the other two end up getting absolutely burried in requests, plot lines and so on that they have little time for anything at all. This in turn would cause frustration among characters playing these roles and more and more would not wish to play them. Everyone loses there if no one is around to stir the pot so to speak.

One final time it is all a matter of my opinion, feel free to pick it about as you wish but thats my stand on it.

[Clearsighted]

Oh come on, how many of us are actually facing off against the Tuluk? About the only players in the city-state conflict that actually 'compete' against each other are the Templars. Most of the conflict in Allanak (including nobility and Templarate) is between other Allanaki nobles and templars.

In any case...

This isn't about hating Tuluk. Or disliking Tuluk. Really. Tuluk is just fine.

It's more about condensing the playerbase, which would itself, impel it to growth. So noone else needs to defend Tuluk or condescendingly point me to help files regarding Tuluk. Okay? The issue is beyond Tuluk.

[Janna]

Oh come on, how many of us are actually facing off against the Tuluk? About the only players in the city-state conflict that actually 'compete' against each other are the Templars. Most of the conflict in Allanak (including nobility and Templarate) is between other Allanaki nobles and templars

I could make a very valid arguement against this but in order to due so I would have to go into IC Information which I'm obviously not going to do. Therefore, I will sign off on this thread and I will hope that the players missing the constant fighting going on between the major cities find themselves brought in since it is truly quite a great deal of fun.  

[Gimfalisette]

It's more about condensing the playerbase, which would itself, impel it to growth.

You keep contending that eliminating choices would lead to more players. And yet, I clearly set forth, as have others, the opinion that less choice would lead to fewer players. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want to have, but if you're not going to support your argument, then you should stop putting it forward as fact that "condensing the playerbase" (by eliminating choices) would cause growth.

To further support what I'm saying, I'll use a real world business example. Why is it that large companies such as Coca-Cola offer SO many different brands of soft drink? If they wanted to get more people to drink Classic Coke, should they do that by eliminating some other soft drinks from their offerings? It all comes down to choice. More choice equals a greater total number of customers. Big corporations know this, it's how they got so big, and it's why they are continually creating new offerings. Conversely, eliminating choices would mean eliminating customers. Not all soft drinks appeal to the same customer, and if you get rid of a brand or two, logically you WILL lose customers.

[jstorrie]

There's always more conflict going on than is readily apparent, Clearsighted, both in the cities and between them. Do you know exactly what all the Rinth powers are up to at any given time? What crazy scheme the Kuracis are pursuing?

Tuluk is easier to play in for some times, harder for others. I would definitely say that Allanak has certain resources that Tuluk doesn't. It also has certain social structures that Tuluk lacks.

The shut-down-Tuluk arguments come and go every now and then, but I would honestly be very disappointed if it went. Tuluk is right up there with the Rinth, personally, as one of my favourite two places to play, partly because of its complex and often creepy social arrangements. Different strokes, right? If you're concerned about the size of the playerbase, get your friends to play!

[ale six]

I never agreed with Rindan et al about the "commoner clans" thing. To me, that argument basically boiled down to "If you reduce the scale and influence of player organisations, conflict will increase." I don't buy that. Whether you're Noble House Oash and Noble House Borsail or Malik's Shoe Company and Joram's Boot Shop, you still have clans of PCs with goals, objectives, conflicts between one another, etc. The noble houses and merchant houses at least have the means and money to create an umbrella of influence and employees. They can throw four and five-figure numbers of coins around in bribes, etc, regularly. The lower class, underprivledged commoners can't.

This isn't an Allanak vs. Tuluk issue at all, though. Nuking one city MIGHT result in less separation of the playerbase, but honestly the way the game is set up right now, anyone who wants a prestigious, high-paying job will be able to get one no matter how many people we cram into a single city. We'd need a pretty big increase in player numbers for that to change.

[jstorrie]

Something important to keep in mind is that unless the playerbase shoots into the thousands, there will always be labour shortages in Zalanthas. Even a single noble would, realistically speaking, have a trusted advisor or two, two or three aides, dozens of attendant servants and dozens of unofficial go-to-guys. High PC mortality rate adds to the mess further. I don't think there's going to be any solution to this as easy as just closing a city or some noble houses.

[alger]

The CocaCola example cannot be applied as a plausible analogy in the sense that the comparison circumstances are not the same.  First of all we're not talking about substitutes here, nor is drinking coke as impacting on other people's desire to drink coke, minus sociological factors.  Overall I have a feeling some people missed the poster's point.  He's talking about player density and how the dispersion of the playerbase reduces the quantity of interactions which in turn reduces enjoyment of the game.  It's quite simple really, you dont add more locations to a game if your playerbase can't support it.

Anyway in a sense it's correct but it's also correct to argue that concentrating a playerbase, by removing a place such as Tuluk, reduces the quality of interactions.  The diversity brought upon by the different demographics is a source of conflict and does add to how different the characters are.  This does add a lot to the game.

Of course in the classic case of quantity over quality, the real question is how much one adds or subtracts which I don't think is easy to answer.  In the end you don't really get a good assessment unitl you run a fair survey, look at statistics or what not.

[Pantoufle]

You don't need to wipe out Tuluk (or Allanak for that matter) to condense the playerbase.  Red Storm couldn't possibly be more uninviting to the general "mass" and, as such, may as well stay as it is.  I don't think the d-elves or the mostly-empty human tribes are "nickling and diming" the playerbase to death either.  

The only real solution is quite transparent: get rid of Luir's (or at least re-occupy it).

[Jherlen]

You don't need to wipe out Tuluk (or Allanak for that matter) to condense the playerbase.  Red Storm couldn't possibly be more uninviting to the general "mass" and, as such, may as well stay as it is.  I don't think the d-elves or the mostly-empty human tribes are "nickling and diming" the playerbase to death either.  

The only real solution is quite transparent: get rid of Luir's (or at least re-occupy it).

The "only", "real" solution, huh? I couldn't disagree more.

Luir's is an effective middle-ground, neutral party territory in the middle of the two city states, and as such it's a nice hub for trade, conflict, and roleplay. If you managed to attend Luirsfest earlier this year, or got to see any of the events in Luir's prior to, during, or after the HRPT, I think you'll agree with me.

I'm not going to crusade against tribals, desert-elves, halflings, or Red Storm, but I ask you to try to honestly make a case that any of these groups (or even all of them together) have made as much of an impact or are as important to the game world as Luir's is.

Like somebody else said, I don't think this topic has anything to do with playerbase distribution anyway.

[Vanth]

I don't wish to quell such a lively discussion with any sort of 'official' reply, but I did want to note a few things:

1) No arrangement will ever make everyone happy.  If we lessen the number of nobles and merchant house members people will complain that there's no money to be made nor goods to special order.
2) Removing options does tend to turn players off rather than redirect them.  How many of you were disappointed to find out that you couldn't immediately play a magicker or a half-giant?
3) Players will not always redirect where you think they will.  Virtualizing the upper castes in Tuluk is just as likely to cause a swelling of indie hunters and magickers as it is to increase the Nakki population.
4) I would encourage you to wait until things FORM LIKE VOLTRON (tm) in Tuluk to pass judgment on the system there.  We do listen and some aspects of Tuluk are changing.

[Dalmeth]

I don't know why people beat on Tuluk so much.  I've spent some time in Allanak and a full third of the population seems to be aides.  Another third is either in the Militia, Byn, a merchant house, or a Noble House military.  The last third are migrants, either indie hunters or crafters who move between the centers of civilization at a whim.

[manonfire]

Nothing bad has -ever- happened to me while playing in Tuluk.

That's why I stick to Allanak.

[Sir Diealot]

http://www.affa.gov.au/image3/brs/forest_veg/soil_land_surv/open%20scrub.jpg


Just.. to kind of clear up a misconception.

Scrub forest.  Those smaller trees are about 1/2 the height of an average man.  This is NOT a paradise.  This is NOT even a -forest- like you're thinking of, from fairy tales with European-esque settings.  Forest =/= Scrub Forest.

Just.. because that comparison is absolutely retarded, and it is completely legitimate, ecologically, for there to be a wasteland in an area and a slightly-less-wasteland (but still fairly shitty) to be a day and a half's ride on a giant bug away.  And, to continue, travelling from Nak to Tuluk should take about 2 IC days, maybe 3 if its not a hard ride.

[Beux]

I don't know why people beat on Tuluk so much.  I've spent some time in Allanak and a full third of the population seems to be aides.  Another third is either in the Militia, Byn, a merchant house, or a Noble House military.  The last third are migrants, either indie hunters or crafters who move between the centers of civilization at a whim.

You forgot about the magickers, and the dirty rinth rats, of which there are plenty...

And with all that said...what else could you want? The only thing missing is...uhm....uhh...mundane commoners who aren't crafters or hunters and don't work for anyone, so, you don't like Allanak because there are no PC beggars?

[jstorrie]

Tuluk is fine, Allanak is fine. Tuluk and Allanak are different. If you like one more than the other, play in the one you like. There's no reason to rag on anyone else's fun.

[Quirk]

I never agreed with Rindan et al about the "commoner clans" thing. To me, that argument basically boiled down to "If you reduce the scale and influence of player organisations, conflict will increase." I don't buy that.

That's a huge oversimplification of Rindan's argument.

If the large organisations a) were not mostly near-monopolies in a cartel agreement not to compete with each other and b) frequently had PCs heading them at a level where they could decide policy, you could put Rindan's argument in those terms. However, given a) and b) are false, the picture changes markedly. In the case of the Noble Houses you also have a c) in that while Merchant House employees are always involved with the core business of the House, it's possible to spend a long time as a Noble House employee without doing anything with any bearing on House finances - e.g. the Oash employees I've played never had anything to do with the vineyards. Additionally, when everyone is resource-rich, you don't get desperate fights over necessities, just squabbles about luxuries.

In a commoner clan, however, you can afford competition with other commoner clans; you can allow PCs to routinely decide policy, as even the loss of the clan will not have a large impact on the world; and everyone has to be involved in keeping the clan in the black, which means that everyone's involved in any possible conflicts arising from the main business of the clan.

The noble houses and merchant houses at least have the means and money to create an umbrella of influence and employees. They can throw four and five-figure numbers of coins around in bribes, etc, regularly. The lower class, underprivledged commoners can't.

A commoner clan that had to work for its living very probably could raise a four-figure sum for a bribe. However, the impact of giving that bribe would affect the clan, materially reduce its comfort zone, perhaps require them to give up things to afford it, maybe by feeding their members more cheaply, or liquidating assets. Their bribe doesn't come out of some mystic cornucopia of sid. As a result, its effects are felt by everyone in the clan, and everyone feels involved.

(Another advantage of "poorer" clans is that elves and half-elves are no longer so isolated. A Borsail guard is hardly going to shoot the breeze with an elf in public - but a Bynner might).

Now, to move on from commoner clans...

People are claiming Tuluk is fine. Historically, it's not been fine, and that, I suspect, is why we're seeing changes in the Northern nobility. After the Rebellion, there was a strong camaraderie between the PCs who'd been through the war together. So far, so good; 'Nak was still the common enemy, and anyone foolish enough to praise the old days under 'Nakki occupation met a swift demise.

The ghost of that camaraderie persists yet. One of the most unfortunate things to happen to Tuluk was "subtlety". It frequently disguised a lack of real objectives and was an excuse for inaction, while letting people RP open, friendly PCs who wouldn't have been out of place on Harshlands. That's not to say no-one got killed; people did get killed, but rarely for any reason of consequence, rarely for any rationale that would satisfy anyone but a serial killer. Being a spy was desperate work. You might know the local sorceror, be the first port of call for those who needed lockpicks and poisons, and be privy to the nobility's more secret conversations with their aides; but looking for intrigue that forwarded anyone's clan goals (save the always-effervescent Kurac) was, at least at one stage, like looking for a pulse on a corpse. The most interesting things my characters got involved in were imm-created plotlines, or, in one instance, the result of a tiny PC clan going out with a (misdirected) bang on being snuffed by a great House.

Subtlety would not have been a problem had people had things to conceal, had they had easy channels for their ambition. I believe that what's happening with the Northern nobles now will provide just such channels. I very much understand the people who've played in Tuluk and disliked it in the past, but I think in the next few months it's going to be radically more attractive to lovers of politics and intrigue. Don't stick to 'Nak and miss out. For those tired of clan life who prefer independents, try a partisan, and get your hooks into the nice juicy conflicts soon on offer without giving up the dirt under your fingernails or losing your freedom to a schedule. There's something for everyone.

[Morfeus]

I am tired of all this "Lets close Tuluk" threads. First, there are changes going on in Tuluk. Give it a real year or so to see what these changes are before you scream they are bad, not working or not helping. Second, why close Tuluk? Why not Luir's or Red Storm or tribes or Allanak itself? There -are- players who love playing in Tuluk and who might leave if Tuluk is suddenly closed without some IC reasons. As well as there probably are some in Allanak or even Luir's. If you want to close Tuluk, work on it ICly.

EDITed to add: Funnily, I saw a lot of "open, friendly PCs who wouldn't have been out of place on Harshlands" in Nak. Most of Vivaduans were, last when I played there.

[Akoto]

Just wanted to say that I don't think closing Tuluk is the answer to the problems. I don't have a solution, but I also feel that shutting down a city ain't it.

As an aside. My character had to travel to Tuluk yesterday on business. It was my first time there OOCly, and I find the area to be very interesting. It's beautifully described, and the people I've met so far have all been superb role-players. The different styles of culture and etiquette do take some getting used to, though!

Places like the above add a great deal to the game, and there ARE people out there enjoying them. If you need further comparison, look at Armageddon's population compared to what most true RPIs are pulling these days. We're doing pretty darn good for all of our so-called wealth emphasis.