Over-emphasis on the wealthy?

[Clearsighted]

Well. If the playerbase was condensed, it would likely grow dramatically. The more people are around, the more emphasis there is to be involved.

[Janna]

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/overview.html

That link will take you directly to what the staff and creators of the game consider the overall theme. Please note that it mentions that both are harsh enviroments and both fit in with the 'theme'.

As for my two sids worth without getting into any IC sensitive info, I have to completely disagree with Clearsighted. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and this is only mine. I've played both sides of the map for quite some time with various characters all ranking in what they did and how much power they had/have. Is Allanak more harsh then Tuluk? Visibly, yes. But only visibly. If one were to dig deeper into the Tuluki backdrop, you would find it to be every bit as harsh (some cases more so) then that of Allanak.

As for having Tuluk run by the Imms...Um, no. I think that would be very bad and would take away greatly from the game. (See LoD response) Not having a living, thinking opponent to face off against if we all lived in Allanak would be so incredibly boring and pointless I will not even comment further. Again, IMO.

As for the notion that cutting down the Noble houses and clans and so on would help build the player base? I truly don't see how. By limiting peoples choices of what/how/who and where to play, you would quickly find people losing interest and running out of ideas for new and unique characters which is what drive almost every story line there is outside of the massive HRPT's put on by the staff.

Lastly, as for the (purpose?) of this post being that the upper crust is put bluntly somehow taking away from the game, please see Gimfalisette's response. There is such a small slot for Nobles and Templars versus the much larger number of 'Joe' characters that if in either city two of four said templars or nobles have time restraints on play time or whatever the case may be, the other two end up getting absolutely burried in requests, plot lines and so on that they have little time for anything at all. This in turn would cause frustration among characters playing these roles and more and more would not wish to play them. Everyone loses there if no one is around to stir the pot so to speak.

One final time it is all a matter of my opinion, feel free to pick it about as you wish but thats my stand on it.

[Clearsighted]

Oh come on, how many of us are actually facing off against the Tuluk? About the only players in the city-state conflict that actually 'compete' against each other are the Templars. Most of the conflict in Allanak (including nobility and Templarate) is between other Allanaki nobles and templars.

In any case...

This isn't about hating Tuluk. Or disliking Tuluk. Really. Tuluk is just fine.

It's more about condensing the playerbase, which would itself, impel it to growth. So noone else needs to defend Tuluk or condescendingly point me to help files regarding Tuluk. Okay? The issue is beyond Tuluk.

[Janna]

Oh come on, how many of us are actually facing off against the Tuluk? About the only players in the city-state conflict that actually 'compete' against each other are the Templars. Most of the conflict in Allanak (including nobility and Templarate) is between other Allanaki nobles and templars

I could make a very valid arguement against this but in order to due so I would have to go into IC Information which I'm obviously not going to do. Therefore, I will sign off on this thread and I will hope that the players missing the constant fighting going on between the major cities find themselves brought in since it is truly quite a great deal of fun.  

[Gimfalisette]

It's more about condensing the playerbase, which would itself, impel it to growth.

You keep contending that eliminating choices would lead to more players. And yet, I clearly set forth, as have others, the opinion that less choice would lead to fewer players. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want to have, but if you're not going to support your argument, then you should stop putting it forward as fact that "condensing the playerbase" (by eliminating choices) would cause growth.

To further support what I'm saying, I'll use a real world business example. Why is it that large companies such as Coca-Cola offer SO many different brands of soft drink? If they wanted to get more people to drink Classic Coke, should they do that by eliminating some other soft drinks from their offerings? It all comes down to choice. More choice equals a greater total number of customers. Big corporations know this, it's how they got so big, and it's why they are continually creating new offerings. Conversely, eliminating choices would mean eliminating customers. Not all soft drinks appeal to the same customer, and if you get rid of a brand or two, logically you WILL lose customers.

[jstorrie]

There's always more conflict going on than is readily apparent, Clearsighted, both in the cities and between them. Do you know exactly what all the Rinth powers are up to at any given time? What crazy scheme the Kuracis are pursuing?

Tuluk is easier to play in for some times, harder for others. I would definitely say that Allanak has certain resources that Tuluk doesn't. It also has certain social structures that Tuluk lacks.

The shut-down-Tuluk arguments come and go every now and then, but I would honestly be very disappointed if it went. Tuluk is right up there with the Rinth, personally, as one of my favourite two places to play, partly because of its complex and often creepy social arrangements. Different strokes, right? If you're concerned about the size of the playerbase, get your friends to play!

[ale six]

I never agreed with Rindan et al about the "commoner clans" thing. To me, that argument basically boiled down to "If you reduce the scale and influence of player organisations, conflict will increase." I don't buy that. Whether you're Noble House Oash and Noble House Borsail or Malik's Shoe Company and Joram's Boot Shop, you still have clans of PCs with goals, objectives, conflicts between one another, etc. The noble houses and merchant houses at least have the means and money to create an umbrella of influence and employees. They can throw four and five-figure numbers of coins around in bribes, etc, regularly. The lower class, underprivledged commoners can't.

This isn't an Allanak vs. Tuluk issue at all, though. Nuking one city MIGHT result in less separation of the playerbase, but honestly the way the game is set up right now, anyone who wants a prestigious, high-paying job will be able to get one no matter how many people we cram into a single city. We'd need a pretty big increase in player numbers for that to change.

[jstorrie]

Something important to keep in mind is that unless the playerbase shoots into the thousands, there will always be labour shortages in Zalanthas. Even a single noble would, realistically speaking, have a trusted advisor or two, two or three aides, dozens of attendant servants and dozens of unofficial go-to-guys. High PC mortality rate adds to the mess further. I don't think there's going to be any solution to this as easy as just closing a city or some noble houses.

[alger]

The CocaCola example cannot be applied as a plausible analogy in the sense that the comparison circumstances are not the same.  First of all we're not talking about substitutes here, nor is drinking coke as impacting on other people's desire to drink coke, minus sociological factors.  Overall I have a feeling some people missed the poster's point.  He's talking about player density and how the dispersion of the playerbase reduces the quantity of interactions which in turn reduces enjoyment of the game.  It's quite simple really, you dont add more locations to a game if your playerbase can't support it.

Anyway in a sense it's correct but it's also correct to argue that concentrating a playerbase, by removing a place such as Tuluk, reduces the quality of interactions.  The diversity brought upon by the different demographics is a source of conflict and does add to how different the characters are.  This does add a lot to the game.

Of course in the classic case of quantity over quality, the real question is how much one adds or subtracts which I don't think is easy to answer.  In the end you don't really get a good assessment unitl you run a fair survey, look at statistics or what not.

[Pantoufle]

You don't need to wipe out Tuluk (or Allanak for that matter) to condense the playerbase.  Red Storm couldn't possibly be more uninviting to the general "mass" and, as such, may as well stay as it is.  I don't think the d-elves or the mostly-empty human tribes are "nickling and diming" the playerbase to death either.  

The only real solution is quite transparent: get rid of Luir's (or at least re-occupy it).

[Jherlen]

You don't need to wipe out Tuluk (or Allanak for that matter) to condense the playerbase.  Red Storm couldn't possibly be more uninviting to the general "mass" and, as such, may as well stay as it is.  I don't think the d-elves or the mostly-empty human tribes are "nickling and diming" the playerbase to death either.  

The only real solution is quite transparent: get rid of Luir's (or at least re-occupy it).

The "only", "real" solution, huh? I couldn't disagree more.

Luir's is an effective middle-ground, neutral party territory in the middle of the two city states, and as such it's a nice hub for trade, conflict, and roleplay. If you managed to attend Luirsfest earlier this year, or got to see any of the events in Luir's prior to, during, or after the HRPT, I think you'll agree with me.

I'm not going to crusade against tribals, desert-elves, halflings, or Red Storm, but I ask you to try to honestly make a case that any of these groups (or even all of them together) have made as much of an impact or are as important to the game world as Luir's is.

Like somebody else said, I don't think this topic has anything to do with playerbase distribution anyway.

[Vanth]

I don't wish to quell such a lively discussion with any sort of 'official' reply, but I did want to note a few things:

1) No arrangement will ever make everyone happy.  If we lessen the number of nobles and merchant house members people will complain that there's no money to be made nor goods to special order.
2) Removing options does tend to turn players off rather than redirect them.  How many of you were disappointed to find out that you couldn't immediately play a magicker or a half-giant?
3) Players will not always redirect where you think they will.  Virtualizing the upper castes in Tuluk is just as likely to cause a swelling of indie hunters and magickers as it is to increase the Nakki population.
4) I would encourage you to wait until things FORM LIKE VOLTRON (tm) in Tuluk to pass judgment on the system there.  We do listen and some aspects of Tuluk are changing.

[Dalmeth]

I don't know why people beat on Tuluk so much.  I've spent some time in Allanak and a full third of the population seems to be aides.  Another third is either in the Militia, Byn, a merchant house, or a Noble House military.  The last third are migrants, either indie hunters or crafters who move between the centers of civilization at a whim.

[manonfire]

Nothing bad has -ever- happened to me while playing in Tuluk.

That's why I stick to Allanak.

[Sir Diealot]

http://www.affa.gov.au/image3/brs/forest_veg/soil_land_surv/open%20scrub.jpg


Just.. to kind of clear up a misconception.

Scrub forest.  Those smaller trees are about 1/2 the height of an average man.  This is NOT a paradise.  This is NOT even a -forest- like you're thinking of, from fairy tales with European-esque settings.  Forest =/= Scrub Forest.

Just.. because that comparison is absolutely retarded, and it is completely legitimate, ecologically, for there to be a wasteland in an area and a slightly-less-wasteland (but still fairly shitty) to be a day and a half's ride on a giant bug away.  And, to continue, travelling from Nak to Tuluk should take about 2 IC days, maybe 3 if its not a hard ride.

[Beux]

I don't know why people beat on Tuluk so much.  I've spent some time in Allanak and a full third of the population seems to be aides.  Another third is either in the Militia, Byn, a merchant house, or a Noble House military.  The last third are migrants, either indie hunters or crafters who move between the centers of civilization at a whim.

You forgot about the magickers, and the dirty rinth rats, of which there are plenty...

And with all that said...what else could you want? The only thing missing is...uhm....uhh...mundane commoners who aren't crafters or hunters and don't work for anyone, so, you don't like Allanak because there are no PC beggars?

[jstorrie]

Tuluk is fine, Allanak is fine. Tuluk and Allanak are different. If you like one more than the other, play in the one you like. There's no reason to rag on anyone else's fun.

[Quirk]

I never agreed with Rindan et al about the "commoner clans" thing. To me, that argument basically boiled down to "If you reduce the scale and influence of player organisations, conflict will increase." I don't buy that.

That's a huge oversimplification of Rindan's argument.

If the large organisations a) were not mostly near-monopolies in a cartel agreement not to compete with each other and b) frequently had PCs heading them at a level where they could decide policy, you could put Rindan's argument in those terms. However, given a) and b) are false, the picture changes markedly. In the case of the Noble Houses you also have a c) in that while Merchant House employees are always involved with the core business of the House, it's possible to spend a long time as a Noble House employee without doing anything with any bearing on House finances - e.g. the Oash employees I've played never had anything to do with the vineyards. Additionally, when everyone is resource-rich, you don't get desperate fights over necessities, just squabbles about luxuries.

In a commoner clan, however, you can afford competition with other commoner clans; you can allow PCs to routinely decide policy, as even the loss of the clan will not have a large impact on the world; and everyone has to be involved in keeping the clan in the black, which means that everyone's involved in any possible conflicts arising from the main business of the clan.

The noble houses and merchant houses at least have the means and money to create an umbrella of influence and employees. They can throw four and five-figure numbers of coins around in bribes, etc, regularly. The lower class, underprivledged commoners can't.

A commoner clan that had to work for its living very probably could raise a four-figure sum for a bribe. However, the impact of giving that bribe would affect the clan, materially reduce its comfort zone, perhaps require them to give up things to afford it, maybe by feeding their members more cheaply, or liquidating assets. Their bribe doesn't come out of some mystic cornucopia of sid. As a result, its effects are felt by everyone in the clan, and everyone feels involved.

(Another advantage of "poorer" clans is that elves and half-elves are no longer so isolated. A Borsail guard is hardly going to shoot the breeze with an elf in public - but a Bynner might).

Now, to move on from commoner clans...

People are claiming Tuluk is fine. Historically, it's not been fine, and that, I suspect, is why we're seeing changes in the Northern nobility. After the Rebellion, there was a strong camaraderie between the PCs who'd been through the war together. So far, so good; 'Nak was still the common enemy, and anyone foolish enough to praise the old days under 'Nakki occupation met a swift demise.

The ghost of that camaraderie persists yet. One of the most unfortunate things to happen to Tuluk was "subtlety". It frequently disguised a lack of real objectives and was an excuse for inaction, while letting people RP open, friendly PCs who wouldn't have been out of place on Harshlands. That's not to say no-one got killed; people did get killed, but rarely for any reason of consequence, rarely for any rationale that would satisfy anyone but a serial killer. Being a spy was desperate work. You might know the local sorceror, be the first port of call for those who needed lockpicks and poisons, and be privy to the nobility's more secret conversations with their aides; but looking for intrigue that forwarded anyone's clan goals (save the always-effervescent Kurac) was, at least at one stage, like looking for a pulse on a corpse. The most interesting things my characters got involved in were imm-created plotlines, or, in one instance, the result of a tiny PC clan going out with a (misdirected) bang on being snuffed by a great House.

Subtlety would not have been a problem had people had things to conceal, had they had easy channels for their ambition. I believe that what's happening with the Northern nobles now will provide just such channels. I very much understand the people who've played in Tuluk and disliked it in the past, but I think in the next few months it's going to be radically more attractive to lovers of politics and intrigue. Don't stick to 'Nak and miss out. For those tired of clan life who prefer independents, try a partisan, and get your hooks into the nice juicy conflicts soon on offer without giving up the dirt under your fingernails or losing your freedom to a schedule. There's something for everyone.

[Morfeus]

I am tired of all this "Lets close Tuluk" threads. First, there are changes going on in Tuluk. Give it a real year or so to see what these changes are before you scream they are bad, not working or not helping. Second, why close Tuluk? Why not Luir's or Red Storm or tribes or Allanak itself? There -are- players who love playing in Tuluk and who might leave if Tuluk is suddenly closed without some IC reasons. As well as there probably are some in Allanak or even Luir's. If you want to close Tuluk, work on it ICly.

EDITed to add: Funnily, I saw a lot of "open, friendly PCs who wouldn't have been out of place on Harshlands" in Nak. Most of Vivaduans were, last when I played there.

[Akoto]

Just wanted to say that I don't think closing Tuluk is the answer to the problems. I don't have a solution, but I also feel that shutting down a city ain't it.

As an aside. My character had to travel to Tuluk yesterday on business. It was my first time there OOCly, and I find the area to be very interesting. It's beautifully described, and the people I've met so far have all been superb role-players. The different styles of culture and etiquette do take some getting used to, though!

Places like the above add a great deal to the game, and there ARE people out there enjoying them. If you need further comparison, look at Armageddon's population compared to what most true RPIs are pulling these days. We're doing pretty darn good for all of our so-called wealth emphasis.