Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[Halaster]

There is no "magicker hideout" or "magicker haven" that they can choose to dwell within and socialize with their peers, build a home, have a job, etc...

Of course, if it was a 'hideout', most people wouldn't know about it by it's very nature of being a secret.  So maybe there is, and you don't know about it!  Of course, by the fact you see a problem leads one to believe that it's not there.

[Malken]

What I would like to see is a list of things that can be done with rogue magickers.. For now, all I can see is once you become rogue, and you are a known magicker who won't be able to socialize with most of the rest of the playerbase, because only Red Storm might tolerate you, there doesn't seem to be much left except for:

1) Retiring

2) Become as powerful as you can be, and go the raider's way until you die.

Sure, that might be stretching it, but really.. You might try and get a few more magickers with you, and form some sort of magicker tribe, but magickers are quick to kill other magickers.. And even if you did manage to get said group together.. What kind of pacific plots could you come up with?

Not everyone enjoys playing in Allanak.. As much as I keep trying, I don't. So I would certainly not want to be a gemmer.. But on the other hand, I don't want to spend my hours of playtime 'hiding and spooking' players just because I want to become more powerful (which sounds horribly boring and pointless if you don't have any long term goals with said powers) as a magicker and I don't have much other choices but to hide and cast spells all day long in the middle of nowhere..

[Jherlen]

Intrepid has very nicely summed up most of my thoughts in response to this post. Rather than quoting everything she said I'll just note that I haven't really noticed a problem.

[Majikal]

There are plenty of hideouts and hangouts for magickers to do there shiny cantrip spellcasty explody spell stuff and most don't hold a threat of people running in and discovering you. I think alot of these problems stem from people in the north not fearing magickers and moreless hunting them. Many kudos to Halaster pumping up the magicker population and I'm happy some of the  fear is actually getting across as I've seen in a past few characters. But the people constantly trying to kill you once you've been discovered is driving alot of rogue magickers towards becoming more violent in their dealing with mundanes.

Point being, there is alot of places to tuck yourself away and vanish while you practice your mage craft and that is not a problem. The general problem is characters not RPing fear of the dude who runs faster than flash while spraying flames and lightning and all sorts of liquid death from his eyes.

[Intrepid]

What I would like to see is a list of things that can be done with rogue magickers.. For now, all I can see is once you become rogue, and you are a known magicker who won't be able to socialize with most of the rest of the playerbase, because only Red Storm might tolerate you, there doesn't seem to be much left except for

The answer to your question is: Anything.

The visibility of magickers in game and the notion that you have to be primarily a magicker is a failing of the players in question to truly breathe life into their characters.  The possibilities for magicker roles are endless, you just have to find your angle, as I keep saying.  A good place to start is consider the environment your pc is playing in, what race they are, where your pc came from originally and which subclass you chose.  You'd be surprised at just what you can do off the get-go, even if you had zero skills.  Class skills do not equal profession, and that seems to be one of the hurdles the newer mage players are having trouble with.

Your character is something else than a mage.  Your mage abilities are an extra.  Being a rogue mage does not mean you cannot have an angle by which you approach your life.  In fact, I'd say it matters even more to have a profession and an angle that has little or nothing to do with magick.

If you're in a hideout mages are known to gravitate to: Get out.  You're living on borrowed time anyway.  You really should have found someplace else a long time ago, and you're not doing anyone a favor by lingering, except for those people who want to kill you.

And if you've found other mages...organize the ones who will form an alliance with you.  Seriously.  Not everyone will be up to it, but those who like the idea of forming an underground alliance will worship the concept in ways that aren't suitable for print here.

You have not only power in the hands of your pc but potential to create history--even if it's a shadow history that few people will ever know about.

[marko]

A very telling aspect about playing a non-tribal magicker in armageddon is how people refer to them OOCly.

Those that aren't gemmed are constantly being referenced as "rogue magickers" but many of these ungemmed magickers aren't rogues at all.

I make this point as something to think about.  I believe ICly those in Allanak would refer to ungemmed magickers as rogue and other not-so-flattering terms.  ICly those in Tuluk refer to all magickers as abominations and tainted.  

OOCly they are just magickers.  If we label them rogue magickers when discussing them we are placing an OOC stigma to any and all magickers which is something I don't think is correct.  We, as a community, have to stop thinking of magickers who are in the wilds as rogues.  They aren't necessarily rogues at all.  Many are fugitives from the cities they were born in (and sometimes I wonder about how some of them survive so surprisingly well from the get-go) but they aren't all rogues.

For fun I went through the last page of posts and pulled out what I'm talking about.

...rogue magickers in the wild...

...that rogue magickers live only...

...you seem to (surprise) find rogue casters remaining...

...alot of rogue magickers towards...

...things that can be done with rogue magickers...

Being a rogue mage...

[LoD]

A very telling aspect about playing a non-tribal magicker in armageddon is how people refer to them OOCly.

It depends what people imply or infer from the word "rogue".  In retrospect, the definition of rogue doesn't quite serve the label I meant to attribute the group of which I spoke.  What I meant by "rogue" (whether the definition fits the word or not) was someone who were beholden to none, who walked their own path in hiding from those that would see them enslaved, used, or killed.  They exist in a land of friend or foe, and they are not friend.

It's not that I expect all magick encounters to go poorly.  In fact, that has not always been the case.  I've had good and bad encounters.  I've seen characters that provided an entertaining scene whose antics ranged from careful co-habitation to harmless mischief, while I've encountered others that provided nothing but coded commands whose actions were bent on thievery or murder.

Good or bad, murderous or passive, my contention is that the sum of these magickal interactions are too many if we are to believe magick is so scarce, so misunderstood, and so mysterious a thing in this world.  You could have an assortment of the best played mages in the Known World, but without some measure of control on the frequency of their interaction or displays of power to certain groups of people (i.e. elven and human nomadic tribes, lone travellers, scouts), there will always be an issue when asking some of these people to consider a common spectacle "uncommon".

My request was for suggestions on how the "ungemmed mage" could have a role other than predator or prey.  If they are not bound to the gem of Allanak, then they are hunted by the rest of civilization.  I'd like to see another option that keeps the bulk of them out of tribal homelands and generally out of mundane affairs.  The northern magicker is often forced to choose between their life and perpetuating the stereotype Marko doesn't want to see because they are not granted any middle ground.

The situation gives a northern mundane character very little room to be merciful, kind, or sympathetic to a mage's plight.  And this includeds Tuluki citizens as well as any elven or human tribals that consider magick dangerous to their people, their lands, or their business.  That totals a lot of trouble of any magicker who isn't content with sitting in a cave "surviving" all day.  Is that Armageddon?  I don't know that it is, and I feel like it's cheapening the experiences that everyone could have if ungemmed mages were given more to do.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

A very telling aspect about playing a non-tribal magicker in armageddon is how people refer to them OOCly.

Actually, marko, I never use the term.  I was only using it for the purposes of this conversation, since so many other people were using it.  I find it to be a matter of forum etiquette to use the terms of those people with whom I'm discussing a topic, basically.

[Dan]

The magicker "situation" to me reeks of the many other distant and not-so distant cycles in player-base playing choices. Remember when every single warrior carried a pair of warhammers? Or whenever you turned around you saw swarms of desert elves in the Sanctuary?

The situation will rectify itself with time, and im not saying this because I feel that this discussion is pointless. I do however agree with LoD that there should be more options for magickers. It would seem to me that it is either too "hard" to come up with an original concept or it is simply too hard to get anywhere codedly or otherwise with a magicker because they die so soon into the game, which leaves people with that initial curiosity as to what the guild is capable of, so they try again.

[Cale_Knight]

It's not an OOC stigma at all. A "rogue" is someone who lives outside society's norms. The term fits rogue magickers exactly, as there are exactly two major societies in Zalanthas and neither of them have a place for these people.

[Malken]

I refer to 'rogue' magickers as magickers that have been 'discovered' or those who do not wish to play a gemmer from the start. Those that most remain hidden from society.

Trying to play a normal life once you have been 'discovered' isn't as easy as it may sound. Having a family and a normal job just won't do it anymore. I have absolutly no problems playing a magicker as long as he remains hidden. It is once he has been discovered that the problems of not knowing what to do with it starts..

[Angela Christine]

Perhaps "free" magicker would have a more neutral connotation?  People refer to free muls, and an unowned mul is almost certainly done some rogue actions to become free.


AC

[Cegar]

Rogue mul is more appropriate, since they ARE rogue.

Same with magickers, basically.

[Saphreal]

Personally, I do think something needs to be done about the ridiculous amount of magickers walking around, but I don't think the solution is to accept them as commonplace chums; instead, I think what we need to discuss is how we can reduce their numbers while keeping them a karma-required guild.

[Halaster]

Personally, I do think something needs to be done about the ridiculous amount of magickers walking around, but I don't think the solution is to accept them as commonplace chums; instead, I think what we need to discuss is how we can reduce their numbers while keeping them a karma-required guild.

This is where people have a different opinion.  I don't believe there are "ridiculous amounts" of magickers running around.  Such a choice of words if quite misleading.  As of this post, there are 23 players in the game.  2 are magickers.  That doesn't sound like a ridiculous amount of magickers to me, far from it.  The average for a while now has been, at most, 20%.  That's pushing the high mark, but to say it's a "ridiculous amount" is misleading and wrong.

[Malken]

If it's not a problem, then it's not a problem

But what if.. When you pick a karma class or race.. You would 'lose' the karma, but slowly regain it through time spent in game?

Say you have 3 karma.. You choose to play a Rukkian.. So you lose 2 karma.. Which brings you back to 1.

After say, 10 days of playtime, you regain 1 karma... Then 10 days later you regain another karma...

This would be cumulative through your different characters.. So if you manage to survive 8 days with a magicker, then die.. 2 days later with a new character you'd regain another karma point..

This doesn't really remove your karma, but it spaces out the amount of magickers one could play during a period of time..

Good.. Bad?

[Ghost]

I like the idea, to lose karma and regenerate it in time.  But I think that would be too complicated to pull off.  How would you code that stuff anyway?

I am with Saphreal.  I think there are too many magickers running around freely.  20% of PCs being magickers ARE too much I would think, since the docs say they are very rare in population.  20% is not rare at all.  I would not count more than 5% is rare indeed.

[TiberiusAlaric]

I am with Saphreal.  I think there are too many magickers running around freely.  20% of PCs being magickers ARE too much I would think, since the docs say they are very rare in population.  20% is not rare at all.  I would not count more than 5% is rare indeed.

Yeah, the admins must have a very broad perspective on what is rare to consider 20% to be rare.

[Malken]

I like the idea, to lose karma and regenerate it in time.  But I think that would be too complicated to pull off.  How would you code that stuff anyway?

Not difficult at all I would think. The same way you go from sated to dehydrated, or the same way you regenerate health over time.. With the in-game timer. I don't know how the code in game is in relation to the player accounts, but if an admin can do something like +karma <character> and it transfers to your account automatically, then something automated would be just as easy.

[Intrepid]

But what if.. When you pick a karma class or race.. You would 'lose' the karma, but slowly regain it through time spent in game?

Good.. Bad?

Bad.  I hope this never gets instituted.  Not only are you forcing the imms to watch people constantly in order to fairly dole out lots of karma, there are a lot of players who fall between the cracks of the system that you're dooming to never get karma for any meaningful span of time.

[Halaster]

I am with Saphreal.  I think there are too many magickers running around freely.  20% of PCs being magickers ARE too much I would think, since the docs say they are very rare in population.  20% is not rare at all.  I would not count more than 5% is rare indeed.

Yeah, the admins must have a very broad perspective on what is rare to consider 20% to be rare.

Not at all.  We're taking into account the population of the game world, not just the PC population.  The PC population is not a good sampling of the rest of the world.  Most people dont' play beggars, slaves, average-Joe commoner who is only a stonemason, and so forth.  Why?  Well, that's kind of dull.  People want to play PC's that do more and get out and about, for the most part.  And I don't just mean rangers, but all sorts.

So, while the PC population may get as high as 20% mages, the population of the game world is not 20% mages.

[mansa]

I am with Saphreal.  I think there are too many magickers running around freely.  20% of PCs being magickers ARE too much I would think, since the docs say they are very rare in population.  20% is not rare at all.  I would not count more than 5% is rare indeed.

Yeah, the admins must have a very broad perspective on what is rare to consider 20% to be rare.

Both of you are wrong.  Sorry.  Wrong.

Halaster said

Code Select Expand

The average for a while now has been, at most, 20%. That's pushing the high mark, but to say it's a "ridiculous amount" is misleading and wrong.0% is High, but not Ridiculous!

He said 1 in 5 is HIGH.  He didn't say 1 in 5 is rare.

Sheesh.  You guys!  *shakes his fist*

[Ghost]

I did not say Halaster said it is rare mansa.  But that is something we pull from the docs.  The magickers are supposed to be rare.  And halaster said 20% is acceptable.  My response was regarding docs and Hal together.

And I see Halaster's point now, though.

[Malken]

Bad.  I hope this never gets instituted.  Not only are you forcing the imms to watch people constantly in order to fairly dole out lots of karma, there are a lot of players who fall between the cracks of the system that you're dooming to never get karma for any meaningful span of time.

I don't understand why you would say that.. It wouldn't affect the amount of karma currently given at all.. Nor does it involve any more work for the Imms. Have you read what I wrote?

It doesn't affect the amount of karma anyone would receive, that would stay exactly the same as it is right now. You would REGENERATE the amount of karma you've lost by taking a role by a certain amount every x days of playtime you have.

Let me repeat.. Let's say you have 4 karma, and you decide that you want to play a whiran.. After you pick the whiran, you go back to 0 karma, because that option 'costs' 4 karma.

After x amount of playtime on your characters, you would get back 1 karma, automatically.. Then 1 more every set amount of time, until you go back to your maxium amount of karma.

The only thing it would prevent, is, say, for someone to play two whirans in a row.. Unless they manage to stay alive for a very long time.

[Forty Winks]

As karma is a measure of responsibility the staff deems a player to have, putting a timer on karma wouldn't really be justifying that. In any case, if your magicker is a long-lived character, the karma timer wouldn't really effect how many magickers you play in a row, and would only punish those magickers who die early.