I don't think modern American racism is a good comparison for Zalanthan xenophobia or racism.

I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

I have on occasion wished up or made a small scene in these situations, where im like gah, stop forgetting we are not just a bunch of people standing in a an empty room, there is a whole world here populated with NPCs and VNPCs as well as culture,history and complicated social structure!

The last time I wished up when people forgot to recognize what they where doing made zero sense IC'ly I was thoroughly happy with the result. 

Don't play the exception until you're actually mature enough to realize you're doing it for your own detriment, not benefit. The exception in zalanthas gets crushed under the boot-heel of opression and survival of the fittest. If you want to play someone who is more likely to be killed or get no interaction, or only get negative interaction then go ahead.

I'm with Malken though. We've already got plenty of the  exception, so please, just play the norm.

Still kinda having trouble understanding the "norm". Plan to give it a better shot the next time around, for the experience. Still, was a heck of a ride, might turn around and try doing something else terribly wrong if it seems like it's something my character would do.

EDIT: I just want everyone to know I'm not complaining. I wouldn't play breeds if I didn't enjoy the challenge. I understand why the game is the way it is, I just like exploring dark and hostile territory, if I didn't, I'd be playing another game.

Arm by and large, in my perspective, is a fear based society. So much of the social norms and taboos are borne out of fear.

You shrink at templars because they are fucking scary and daddy tektolnes is a god damn dragon (as far as most commoners would know)

Gicker kanking isn't taboo, it's all but fucking stupid and suicidal. It's not like banging your cousin, it's like using a loaded shotgun as a dildo with your thumb on the trigger, muzzle first.

In my mind, commoners knowingly banging magickers isn't a case of " oh that's naughty." It should be so damn unfathomable for the vast majority of all but those lacking in self-preservation or a shred of common sense.

Working beside a 'gicker? Hmmm, there's enough fear of what they might do, but hey the highlord has them collared, in a gemmer's case, and thus can protect you, maybe. But alone in an apartment and taking your clothes off? Totally different story.

Even then, before the average pc should ever get involved in that close of a relationship with a magicker, it'd be after years of familiarity, not a couple weeks chatting in the Gaj.


Just my opinions, of course.

Quote from: Rhyden on April 22, 2013, 02:04:55 PM
- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

This is a mix of very different things. I think it's important to distinguish between Zalanthan stereotypes based on reality and those which are purely cultural.  Elves are thieves.  So it makes plenty of sense for an elf to attempt to rip off anyone cozying up to them.  Half-elves are neurotic weirdos, so it makes plenty of sense for them to act like they are. (Although I tend to agree that in-game attitudes about them are probably more about EWW BREED than about their pathological psychology, which is within the range of human psychology anyway.  Even if breeds were exactly the same as humans psychologically, they would still be just as despised.)

On the other hand mages are not necessarily the Wicked Witch of the West, although your PC may well think they are. They're just normal people (or elves, dwarves, breeds) with magical powers and certain social consequences of that. The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains. They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.  I think it would lead to very one-note roleplay to suggest that every PC has to fit every Zalanthan stereotype (as opposed to just believe them), when some of them are simply false.  There are different kinds of prejudice on Zalanthas, some with basis in fact and some without. That's part of what makes the game great. As for the mul case, I think you're oversimplifying a bit, at least based on my reading of the docs, but at least it's closer to the elf/breed case.

Suddenly want to roll a dwarf with a gicker-kanking focus... 

What I don't think most people get about racism is that in most cases, it's not about the other race being bad, it's about your race being better.

No racist Zalanthan should neglect celebrating their own race.  Invite pure-blood humans for a drink.  Bring them in on jobs.

But for god's sake, if you have to bring in a dirty breed, give him shit pay so he doesn't start thinking he can make a career out of you.

Afterall, that career is reserved for a human.

What is the norm on Zalanthas race wise? A quick read on the helpfiles will lead you in the right direction. That said:

1) Humans are fucking racists AND supremacists. A human would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other humans NOT from their city.
2) Desert Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A D-elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other d-elves. WAY above city-elves.
3) Dwarves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A dwarf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Any other dwarf from anywhere else is okay, unlike d-elves.
4) City Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A city elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. They would also know that everyone else thinks they are shit and hate that.
5) Any -gemmed- magicker should be walking on eggshells even worse than breeds. Just like everyone else NOT gemmed should be walking on eggshells around the 'gicks.
6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.
7) Half Giant's are stupid and to be used, duped, taken advantage of. They should never be found attractive by anything BUT other stupid giants but would probably be prime targets for sadists and other real big perverts cause of their usability and devotion. Your own personal puppet. Use is accordingly, stop treating it like a fucking cherished pet.
ALL Nobility are fucking racists AND supremacists. ALL nobles would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring perversion and slavehood which is NOT considered bad. In one place it's very clear, in another place you THINK they're not like that, but they are.

I try and give a little humanity to my characters, make them flawed and unperfect so I put at least one exception in persona in most of them but that said, as I play longer, I value more, respect more, the people who play the norm stringently. Kudos to you all.

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

DAYS WITHOUT INCIDENT:

Year 1, Month 1, Day 1: I'm a Gemmer! Keeping my cool is easy.

Year 2, Month 3, Day 23: Branched rocket launcher today. I'll only ever use it for good!

Year 7, Month 2, Day 151: Byn runner spit on me. Weighed pros and cons for a couple of hours...got drunk.

Social engineering at its finest.

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 22, 2013, 07:20:07 PM
6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.

Sounds like my breeds, alright. Been told I do a good job with it, and I enjoy the feck out of it.

Quote from: Morrolan on April 22, 2013, 09:12:53 PM

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

DAYS WITHOUT INCIDENT:

Year 1, Month 1, Day 1: I'm a Gemmer! Keeping my cool is easy.

Year 2, Month 3, Day 23: Branched rocket launcher today. I'll only ever use it for good!

Year 7, Month 2, Day 151: Byn runner spit on me. Weighed pros and cons for a couple of hours...got drunk.

This is so awesome, and so true. 

Quote from: ShaLeah on April 22, 2013, 07:20:07 PM
What is the norm on Zalanthas race wise? A quick read on the helpfiles will lead you in the right direction. That said:

1) Humans are fucking racists AND supremacists. A human would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other humans NOT from their city.
2) Desert Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A D-elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other d-elves. WAY above city-elves.
3) Dwarves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A dwarf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Any other dwarf from anywhere else is okay, unlike d-elves.
4) City Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A city elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. They would also know that everyone else thinks they are shit and hate that.
5) Any -gemmed- magicker should be walking on eggshells even worse than breeds. Just like everyone else NOT gemmed should be walking on eggshells around the 'gicks.
6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.
7) Half Giant's are stupid and to be used, duped, taken advantage of. They should never be found attractive by anything BUT other stupid giants but would probably be prime targets for sadists and other real big perverts cause of their usability and devotion. Your own personal puppet. Use is accordingly, stop treating it like a fucking cherished pet.
ALL Nobility are fucking racists AND supremacists. ALL nobles would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring perversion and slavehood which is NOT considered bad. In one place it's very clear, in another place you THINK they're not like that, but they are.

I try and give a little humanity to my characters, make them flawed and unperfect so I put at least one exception in persona in most of them but that said, as I play longer, I value more, respect more, the people who play the norm stringently. Kudos to you all.

I agree with... pretty much everything here except for the purposeful exception in most. Many times, they come to a slight or imperfect exception with one of the above, maybe two, but it's usually picked up due to in-game experience with the character. If I have a character banging a breed, for example... chances are they hate themselves every bit as much for it as other people would. Never done anything across race other than that except a single client in a single encounter who was a mul while playing a much abused and extremely masochistic prostitute pc.

That said, I have a dislike for the lopsidedness in gemmed vs nongemmed encounters. It's great to be the one hated and feared, and it's great to do the hating and fearing, but there's a lot of times where the fear seems to completely subside to be replaced with nothing but hate, and that's vaguely annoying to deal with (mostly when actually playing gemmed). Because then you have someone (often many someones) who are more than ready to kill you for ostensibly no reason, but aren't at all afraid of you, which... really leads to the thing posted by Morrolan above as fake bio entries. After long enough, it becomes a challenge of self-control whether or not you give them something to fear.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on April 22, 2013, 11:05:59 PM
I agree with... pretty much everything here except for the purposeful exception in most. Many times, they come to a slight or imperfect exception with one of the above, maybe two, but it's usually picked up due to in-game experience with the character. If I have a character banging a breed, for example... chances are they hate themselves every bit as much for it as other people would. Never done anything across race other than that except a single client in a single encounter who was a mul while playing a much abused and extremely masochistic prostitute pc.

That said, I have a dislike for the lopsidedness in gemmed vs nongemmed encounters. It's great to be the one hated and feared, and it's great to do the hating and fearing, but there's a lot of times where the fear seems to completely subside to be replaced with nothing but hate, and that's vaguely annoying to deal with (mostly when actually playing gemmed). Because then you have someone (often many someones) who are more than ready to kill you for ostensibly no reason, but aren't at all afraid of you, which... really leads to the thing posted by Morrolan above as fake bio entries. After long enough, it becomes a challenge of self-control whether or not you give them something to fear.

Maybe I should have written "barring being a sick, twisted rapist, or playing an exception".  In the case of the gemmers, a lot of times fear comes -out- as hatred. Like a skunk when spooked, you spray first, ask questions later. My first character fell massively in love with a human krathi. Head over heels sobbing when he died in love. Had I read the docs instead of winging it I'd have had even -better- roleplay, more delicious, self-loathing, torturous kind of roleplay. Since then none of my characters have ever fallen in love with another gemmer but a couple have feigned it knowing full well that to a gemmer, affection from a non-gemmer is like ANY affection to a breed. I mean, I think it would be anyway. It's also very cool when the high and mighty  fall, the naysayers, the haters turn to lovers. I dig that. On a couple of occasions that I've played the instigator into that kind of deception I've found my character wishing they hadn't gone that route. Some very hard lessons to learn.

All in all, I think we should strive for the norm and while playing that norm, for excitement and drama purposes, hope to meet an exception.

Quote from: greasygemo on April 22, 2013, 04:48:23 PM
I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

This.

I remember a particular scene last year where my mundane was reacting extremely uncomfortably around heavy magick use and every other mundane around acted like I was the crazy one.

Quote from: Rhyden on April 22, 2013, 11:49:19 PM

Quote from: greasygemo on April 22, 2013, 04:48:23 PM
I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

This.

I remember a particular scene last year where my mundane was reacting extremely uncomfortably around heavy magick use and every other mundane around acted like I was the crazy one.

I wish for once I could BE the person in this situation, instead of just hearing about it. It would make me feel incredibly superior, and like the best roleplayer in the world. Then I would report everyone else there and happily go about my day thinking that my interaction with those people, and the staff report sent, might actually make THEM into better roleplayers.

Everyone wins, yay!

You don't know what's going on in those people's heads. They could be squirming inside, seething, freaking out so bad they can't even move...they might even have wet themselves in fear...but they're trying to act cool so the 'gicker doesn't blast them...or pay attention...or whatever. Just because they look calm to you...doesn't mean they are.

It's hard for a character to stare drov in the face while a gicker annihilates huge packs of his enemies without forming a small degree of respect, perhaps love, but mostly fear... Specially if the character is a Tuluki... Lots of fear there, and fear is... Well, figure fear, risk are things that make ya just wanna kank something. Nothing like staring death in the face to make a person want to make, love, for lack of a better explanation

That being said, I don't see it as so odd a self-destructive, self-loathing breed might poke a gicker (especially considering breeds'll stop to poke anything that gives 'em the time of day). even get excited about doing something so wild and out of the norm, but I do see why it should remain hidden. I dunno if you've ever stopped to poke something you're absolutely terrified of IRL, but if you haven't, try it  sometime.

Honestly, I figured his personal goal was -Can't say because it's too soon-

I love this, most of all: Find out IC. But that really doesn't help any characters who care to live.

Quote from: Maso on April 23, 2013, 12:15:52 AM
You don't know what's going on in those people's heads. They could be squirming inside, seething, freaking out so bad they can't even move...they might even have wet themselves in fear...but they're trying to act cool so the 'gicker doesn't blast them...or pay attention...or whatever. Just because they look calm to you...doesn't mean they are.

This is fine, but if they're so convincing on the outside that it looks like they don't care ... well then ... people are gonna treat them like they honestly didn't care and are in fact, a filthy gicker lover  

So, be ready for that. The only PC's who can wink wink nudge nudge your terribly horrified thinks and feels under your perfectly composed at ease and cool with it demeanor ... well ... yeah ...

Quote from: Morrolan on April 22, 2013, 09:12:53 PM

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

Quote from: catchall on April 22, 2013, 05:57:56 PM
They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

Well that's all very nice, but it's just your idea of how a mage PC should respond, and it completely ignores whether that is an IC response for the PC in question.  In "some, even many, cases" that may be appropriate.  In another some, even many, even most cases, it's not. It's only one way of many to react.  After all, if mundanes are supposed to be terrified of mages and avoid them for the sake of self-preservation, doesn't it stand to reason that gemmed, especially, would be terrified of Templars and avoid stepping out of line for the sake of self-preservation?  There is no support in the docs for the idea that mage PCs have to turn into murder machines for our collective excitement.

I'm also not convinced that attempted murder is that common of an experience for gemmed mages who aren't drawing attention to themselves.  They have a designated place in society and are largely segregated, probably to avoid exactly that kind of tension.  Most gemmed don't go on rampages. If they did, there wouldn't be gemmed.

From a documented standpoint, attempted murder probably isn't a common experience for magickers, gemmed or otherwise, assuming they keep a relatively low profile.

From a gameplay standpoint, as soon as it's revealed that your PC is a magicker, one or more PCs will have a desire to kill you should the opportunity arise, and some will actively hunt you in spite of the documentation because "they aren't superstitious peasants who get scared of silly magick".

Quote from: HavokBlue on April 23, 2013, 01:53:25 AM
From a documented standpoint, attempted murder probably isn't a common experience for magickers, gemmed or otherwise, assuming they keep a relatively low profile.

From a gameplay standpoint, as soon as it's revealed that your PC is a magicker, one or more PCs will have a desire to kill you should the opportunity arise, and some will actively hunt you in spite of the documentation because "they aren't superstitious peasants who get scared of silly magick".

Everything this guy said.

Which is, again, what leads to the results posted by Morrolan...

Which goes back to the notion of roleplaying FEAR as well as the hatred playing into things. If people are simply hostile toward you, it makes no sense from a survivalist's mental standpoint not to prepare for them to attack you and have guns loaded in case you have to fire back, metaphorically.

IF people were playing more in accord with the documentation there, there would be less of the murders and attempted murders around magick users.

Edit to add: This is all my own experience. I'd pked one person, a magicker, with a magicker pc of mine. Everyone's mileage may vary.

What is amusing to me is, because so many people play the exception, or at least seem to, I get far more enjoyment from playing the norm.

When I play an elf, I work VERY hard to stick as close to the elf docs and tribe docs for that elf as is possible, and find it to be loads of fun.

On the mages, Most of my mages have rather high PK numbers, but usually that is self defense. And usually I am both amused and annoyed when that happens, in some cases I have really thought about filing a player complaint even though the offending PC is dead.

For instance, I had a mage, one of the ones known to be flashy and deadly, He was fully decked out in flashy armor, covered in VERY noticable magicks, all of which are impressive in looks and action. Everything screamed "I have no reason to fear...anything, and am doing my best to show it so you have the chance to live." I mean, if you met somebody like this IRL, you would shit yourself, it would be like looking at God in all his glory and then some. Any sane or even 1/10 sane person would run screaming or cower in fear...and yet, He was always getting attacked...it got to the point I really started thinking that the players were simply using him to suicide. It got so old that the one time a pc actually did cower in fear, I sent kudos.

Anyway, I bet if anybody actually made a PC with the intent to make them as close to the docs as possible, they would actually find it more enjoyable then straying.

Quote from: X-D on April 23, 2013, 02:58:21 AM
What is amusing to me is, because so many people play the exception, or at least seem to, I get far more enjoyment from playing the norm.

When I play an elf, I work VERY hard to stick as close to the elf docs and tribe docs for that elf as is possible, and find it to be loads of fun.

On the mages, Most of my mages have rather high PK numbers, but usually that is self defense. And usually I am both amused and annoyed when that happens, in some cases I have really thought about filing a player complaint even though the offending PC is dead.

For instance, I had a mage, one of the ones known to be flashy and deadly, He was fully decked out in flashy armor, covered in VERY noticable magicks, all of which are impressive in looks and action. Everything screamed "I have no reason to fear...anything, and am doing my best to show it so you have the chance to live." I mean, if you met somebody like this IRL, you would shit yourself, it would be like looking at God in all his glory and then some. Any sane or even 1/10 sane person would run screaming or cower in fear...and yet, He was always getting attacked...it got to the point I really started thinking that the players were simply using him to suicide. It got so old that the one time a pc actually did cower in fear, I sent kudos.

Anyway, I bet if anybody actually made a PC with the intent to make them as close to the docs as possible, they would actually find it more enjoyable then straying.

I agree. I've found following the docs heavily lends to some very fun characters. I admit my earlier characters were not 'typical', however.