Exceptions and Norms

[Barzalene]

Apparently interesting enough we seem to want to discuss. We were derailing the taboos thread though.

[Fujikoma]

Whoops... Sorry for contributing to the derailment of that topic. I'm pretty new to the game and I'm actually very interested to hear what more experienced players have to say about this topic.

[Barzalene]

Don't be sorry at all! That's what discussions do.

[Malken]

Pretty simple to me, don't play the exception, play the norm.

Too many are playing exceptions.. "My Pa told me to judge people by their deeds, not the blood that flows within their veins.. So I'll bang you, it's what my Pa would have wanted out of me.", "My Ma was saved by a breed while she was roaming the desert.. Not all breeds are bad, like you.. I.. I LOVE YOU!".

"'Gikers are so powerful, they could curse me if I look at them wrong.. I might as well be very friendly to them, then they might leave me alone! *rips blouse*"

You'd be surprised at how often all of this happens.

[Marauder Moe]

Let's say that Amos hates gemmers, hates elves, hates northerners, but has a half-breed cousin he likes to hang out with.  People would probably shout "You're playing an exception to the docs!  We need more people that play like the docs say to!".

Let's say Amos also has three friends, Joram, Malek, and Sadira.

Joram hates elves, hates halfbreeds, hates northerns, but his best friend got gemmed and he decided to stay friends anyway.
Malek hates gemmers, hates elves, hates halfbreeds, but his mom is from Tuluk so he doesn't mind northerners.
Sadira hates gemmers, hates halfbreeds, hates northerners, but thinks rugged sand-striding Soh are kinda sexy.

This is one crazy group!  All of them are exceptions to the documentation!  This game is being overrun by people who are in complete disregard of the setting!

Let's say they're all sitting at the bar, though.  A half-elf comes over and sits down.  Magickally, in this group of exceptions, 75% of them don't like him.  Half-elf leaves, gemmer comes in.  75% of the group doesn't like him either.  Gemmer leaves, northerner comes in.  Once again, most of the group is hating.

This group is completely made up of exceptional characters, yet somehow, in any situation, the group roughly conforms to the standards of the documentation (most people hate gemmers/halfbreeds/elves/northerners).

I think people need to realize that being "exceptional" is not a binary state, and really it's unfair to criticize someone for playing an exception when perhaps 95% of their character's view are in-line with the documentation.

That said, it does become a problem when too many characters are exceptional in the same way.

TL;DR

Moe's advice for exceptional characters has always been: for every facet of your character that is exceptional, they should be ordinary in nine other ways.

[Morrolan]

I have played at least one character who was a terrible, terrible exception.

So here are my suggestions for how to play an exception:

• Recognize, as a player, that you are playing someone who is outside the social norm.
• Inform staff, through the character background, in biographies, and with character reports, about the exception.
• Have your character act in a relatively reasonable way regarding the exception. Specifically, ask youself, "does your character act in a way that would have allowed them to reach their current age?"
• There doesn't need to be a cheesy explanation for your exception.  It can be a personality trait, rather than a pathology.
• Your exception can never, ever go away, no matter how inconvenient it is to have--unless you go to extreme lengths (find a mindbender and have the exception stripped from your mind, kinda thing).

[Fujikoma]

Is it ok for your pc to have life changing experiences over the course of play that nudge their perspective from the norm?

... I've never filled out a character bio or report... Suppose I should look into it.

[Rhyden]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

[Is Friday]

Fujikoma: Yes, but they would almost never be unaware of society's norm. Generally people who are outside of the norm in hostile cultures like the ones we find in Zalanthas would hide their "exception" tendencies. Unless they want to live a more miserable life, and that's not really the case. There's no honor or glory in standing up for "equal rights", for instance.

[Refugee]

Also, I think, if you're playing someone who is in a relationship that's going to get him castigated (or dead), you can do that.  But he's probably not going to go around talking about kanking elves or making out with a gemmer in the bar, realistically.  If he does, other players really have no choice but to react very negatively in order to be in-line with documentation and the game norms.  In fact, most of us would assume that's what you, the player, wanted to happen, if you had your PC act that way.

You'd know it was taboo, so you'd do it secretly if you do it.  You'd probably be terrified people would find out, and the allure would have to be so strong that it would overcome your sense of self-preservation.  It'd be fun to play!  But challenging to do well.

[Fujikoma]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?... How should breeds and elves interact, I wonder? Or breeds and dwarves...? Elves and dwarves?

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I think there are plenty of ways to handle this as the other side of the exception without actively trying to be antagonistic. Like animating vnpcs to show -their- negative reactions. I've had more than a couple magicker pcs through the years be involved with mundanes to horrible consequence, everything from name-calling to sneers to the occasional mug being thrown at them, depending on the surroundings, and more.

[Patuk]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?... How should breeds and elves interact, I wonder? Or breeds and dwarves...? Elves and dwarves?

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

Breeds suck up to elves the way they do to humans. It's why nobody sees breeds as the people wanting friends as they are, because a breed sucking up to elvenkind would be a thieving little bugger in his own right.

Breeds don't care much for dwarves, since they don't have anything to do with their ancestry, but don't care against them either.

Elves would treat dwarves as rather annoying money faucets, perhaps much like a human could. The 'challenge' aspect from the elven viewpoint on theft isn't quite as great with dwarves though.

[Refugee]

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

Play however you enjoy playing.  The majority of the playerbase will react to it within docs, because we understand that's what makes the world real.  So long as you're cool with that, you're just fine.

[Twilight]

How a human might react might not be the same way another race would react.

I've only done interracial sex scene once on Arm.

My dwarf had a blah blah focus of something like "Become the most versatile assassin ever" or something like that.

He hired an elf to have sex.  Unfortunately, his girth did not kill her.  He planned to try anal next, to see if that would do it.  If not, he'd have to figure out something more extreme and creative.

Taboo, outside the norm, and yet it made complete sense for him.  And I wouldn't say he tried to hide that he had done it (although obviously he was hiding what he was trying to actually do from her).

[Fujikoma]

Play however you enjoy playing.  The majority of the playerbase will react to it within docs, because we understand that's what makes the world real.  So long as you're cool with that, you're just fine.

Yeah, I'm cool with that. Enjoyed the hell out of playing my last character... Wouldn't have been anywhere near as fun without all the challenges of it.

[Flincher]

How a human might react might not be the same way another race would react.

I've only done interracial sex scene once on Arm.

My dwarf had a blah blah focus of something like "Become the most versatile assassin ever" or something like that.

He hired an elf to have sex.  Unfortunately, his girth did not kill her.  He planned to try anal next, to see if that would do it.  If not, he'd have to figure out something more extreme and creative.

Taboo, outside the norm, and yet it made complete sense for him.  And I wouldn't say he tried to hide that he had done it (although obviously he was hiding what he was trying to actually do from her).

He tried to kill her with his dick? That is probably the best thing I have ever heard.

[James de Monet]

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?

Yes and yes, to an extent. Humans definitely should expect other races to act this way, by and large, as those are the world's documented stereotypes. When playing other races, you should strongly consider playing to the docs, which, by and large will reinforce these stereotypes (though not necessarily with the same motivation the humans perceive).

Also, I might point out that the stigma against half-elves is probably more due to their origin (taboo elf/human relations) and not to their emotional instability, which humans probably simply find weird and uncomfortable.

In terms of "playing it wrong" however, you really can't do that. Make a PC with a believable, internally consistent character, and play them based on that character. While its more helpful to other players to see stereotypes reinforced for the feeling of the game world, you can play an elf-loving, gem-lusting, dwarf if you want to, just back it up in your char description, and try not to play such an exception with every character.

I once had a character that went on a full-blown bigoted tirade about elves in a bar, screaming obscenities and all, and eventually got booed out of said bar because he admitted he hated elves worse than gemmers. You can't please them all.

[BuNutzCola]

What I see more often is more akin to:

Well I had this experience with a gicker that was good for me. Rather than just  being a -little- less hating  on that particular gicker, I'll just be cool with them all.


Would rather the "a gicker did right by me" be more like in the movies, when the enemy dude gives a nod to the hero, and the hero  just barely manages to escape because they were allowed to, just that once because the hero saved enemy dude's sister's life.


Will try to find a link that's more coherent than the above statement

[Fujikoma]

Sounds like there's a delicate balance between survival instinct, and hate. Do you have to go out of your way to show your contempt, possibly putting yourself in harms way? Or just not say anything? Or can you just be polite, but distant except with those who've earned your character's respect and/or friendship while not associating much with others from that group?

I've read elsewhere about how hatred, or at least dislike or apathy, needn't be shouted at the top of your lungs all the time, but can also be applied subtly.

[Morrolan]

As with anything involving the proper RP of a character, there is going to be a lot of variation in how this is expressed.

The important part is that the norms are recognized. Your human character might be an elf-lovin' freak! (S)he's just not ever, ever, ever gonna walk into a bar hand-in-hand with an elf unless there's a life-or-death reason. The character can expect to be shunned by both communities, will likely lose their job, business contacts, trade contacts, and friends.

So, unless both characters are suicidal or stupid, that's not gonna happen.

Here's something else to remember: there are no social secrets in Arm. Like a small town, someone will know. Soon, everyone will know. Even if you hide it, people will guess. Even if it's not true, people will get accused.

Armageddon is Boys Don't Cry, not The Birdcage.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Armageddon is Boys Don't Cry, not The Birdcage.

That is really, really, really apt.

[Kalai]

Showing contempt can be as much a part of survival instinct as not showing hatred.
I mean, I'm kind of a chronic breed player myself so I can tell you: You try and cozy up with elves, it's helpful to rag on dumb roundears. You try and cozy up with humans you'll get some points for muttering about how neckers are arrogant worthless parasites. Basically trying to cement your place as 'bad but not as bad as them'.   It's a good way to build up that self-hate and resentment too!
There's a lot of subtlety you can put into hatred, regardless. Do have to realize that the reason elves are hated is because they are proud bastards equally willing to slit your throat or your purse: spitting on them is the kind of rewarding thing you want to have the power of a decently riled up crowd to do, if you're not particularly brave. Less overt forms of revulsion, mistrust, and fear are gonna be par for the course for the most part.
Krath, fear's a great emotion. It's an excellent way to incorporate survival instinct into your hate. These people creatures you live with are alien beings with a mindset that makes no sense to you and can't be predicted or trusted except that the differences will screw you over, makes perfect sense to be afraid of them.

[Riev]

I find it also pertinent to mention that, if you're a human and you -reaaaallllyyy- hate elves, you're probably not stupid enough to walk up to some high ranking Sun Runner or something and spit in their face just because they are elves.

Like someone mentioned earlier, think about whether your actions for that hatred would have allowed you to live as long as you have. Feel angry. Think Fucking neckers trying to drink in MY bar. Not every situation calls for "You're a necker and I'm a human so I'm going to try and beat you up."

Years and YEARS of playing in Tuluk has blunted that reaction in me, so that I've resorted more to thinks and feels around elves, and emoted overtly ignoring their presence or their conversations. Remember, punching a master assassin in the face will get you killed. Ignoring him altogether might get you a few extra days alive.

[Cutthroat]

I think a "normal" character can be very fluid. Characters don't need extreme opinions on everything and don't need to hold onto those opinions forever. They can even gain new ones. I like what Marauder Moe said about characters having one exceptional quality for every nine normal qualities.

I've read elsewhere about how hatred, or at least dislike or apathy, needn't be shouted at the top of your lungs all the time, but can also be applied subtly.

Sure. Take racism, for example. If you talk to racist people IRL, they tend not to randomly shout racial epithets at people they hate. The racism is more discreet and ingrained. Normal racism in game can just be simple prejudicial decisions ("I won't deal with that elf because elves are thieves") or opinions ("that dwarf is a bad bodyguard because all he does is make travel cakes"). Of course, the louder variety can work, and it really depends on how you want to play your character, but Zalanthans generally want to stay alive, and that should be a factor in the character's actions. This mentality can be applied to pretty much any type of hatred (magickers, the other city, tribals, even specific people).