Exceptions and Norms

[Barzalene]

Apparently interesting enough we seem to want to discuss. We were derailing the taboos thread though.

[Fujikoma]

Whoops... Sorry for contributing to the derailment of that topic. I'm pretty new to the game and I'm actually very interested to hear what more experienced players have to say about this topic.

[Barzalene]

Don't be sorry at all! That's what discussions do.

[Malken]

Pretty simple to me, don't play the exception, play the norm.

Too many are playing exceptions.. "My Pa told me to judge people by their deeds, not the blood that flows within their veins.. So I'll bang you, it's what my Pa would have wanted out of me.", "My Ma was saved by a breed while she was roaming the desert.. Not all breeds are bad, like you.. I.. I LOVE YOU!".

"'Gikers are so powerful, they could curse me if I look at them wrong.. I might as well be very friendly to them, then they might leave me alone! *rips blouse*"

You'd be surprised at how often all of this happens.

[Marauder Moe]

Let's say that Amos hates gemmers, hates elves, hates northerners, but has a half-breed cousin he likes to hang out with.  People would probably shout "You're playing an exception to the docs!  We need more people that play like the docs say to!".

Let's say Amos also has three friends, Joram, Malek, and Sadira.

Joram hates elves, hates halfbreeds, hates northerns, but his best friend got gemmed and he decided to stay friends anyway.
Malek hates gemmers, hates elves, hates halfbreeds, but his mom is from Tuluk so he doesn't mind northerners.
Sadira hates gemmers, hates halfbreeds, hates northerners, but thinks rugged sand-striding Soh are kinda sexy.

This is one crazy group!  All of them are exceptions to the documentation!  This game is being overrun by people who are in complete disregard of the setting!

Let's say they're all sitting at the bar, though.  A half-elf comes over and sits down.  Magickally, in this group of exceptions, 75% of them don't like him.  Half-elf leaves, gemmer comes in.  75% of the group doesn't like him either.  Gemmer leaves, northerner comes in.  Once again, most of the group is hating.

This group is completely made up of exceptional characters, yet somehow, in any situation, the group roughly conforms to the standards of the documentation (most people hate gemmers/halfbreeds/elves/northerners).

I think people need to realize that being "exceptional" is not a binary state, and really it's unfair to criticize someone for playing an exception when perhaps 95% of their character's view are in-line with the documentation.

That said, it does become a problem when too many characters are exceptional in the same way.

TL;DR

Moe's advice for exceptional characters has always been: for every facet of your character that is exceptional, they should be ordinary in nine other ways.

[Morrolan]

I have played at least one character who was a terrible, terrible exception.

So here are my suggestions for how to play an exception:

• Recognize, as a player, that you are playing someone who is outside the social norm.
• Inform staff, through the character background, in biographies, and with character reports, about the exception.
• Have your character act in a relatively reasonable way regarding the exception. Specifically, ask youself, "does your character act in a way that would have allowed them to reach their current age?"
• There doesn't need to be a cheesy explanation for your exception.  It can be a personality trait, rather than a pathology.
• Your exception can never, ever go away, no matter how inconvenient it is to have--unless you go to extreme lengths (find a mindbender and have the exception stripped from your mind, kinda thing).

[Fujikoma]

Is it ok for your pc to have life changing experiences over the course of play that nudge their perspective from the norm?

... I've never filled out a character bio or report... Suppose I should look into it.

[Rhyden]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

[Is Friday]

Fujikoma: Yes, but they would almost never be unaware of society's norm. Generally people who are outside of the norm in hostile cultures like the ones we find in Zalanthas would hide their "exception" tendencies. Unless they want to live a more miserable life, and that's not really the case. There's no honor or glory in standing up for "equal rights", for instance.

[Refugee]

Also, I think, if you're playing someone who is in a relationship that's going to get him castigated (or dead), you can do that.  But he's probably not going to go around talking about kanking elves or making out with a gemmer in the bar, realistically.  If he does, other players really have no choice but to react very negatively in order to be in-line with documentation and the game norms.  In fact, most of us would assume that's what you, the player, wanted to happen, if you had your PC act that way.

You'd know it was taboo, so you'd do it secretly if you do it.  You'd probably be terrified people would find out, and the allure would have to be so strong that it would overcome your sense of self-preservation.  It'd be fun to play!  But challenging to do well.

[Fujikoma]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?... How should breeds and elves interact, I wonder? Or breeds and dwarves...? Elves and dwarves?

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I think there are plenty of ways to handle this as the other side of the exception without actively trying to be antagonistic. Like animating vnpcs to show -their- negative reactions. I've had more than a couple magicker pcs through the years be involved with mundanes to horrible consequence, everything from name-calling to sneers to the occasional mug being thrown at them, depending on the surroundings, and more.

[Patuk]

I'd like to see more players following the docs, but this is a two sided issue. Both parties need to act and react accordingly. If you're on the other side of an exceptional situation, don't hesitate to show the other exactly why they shouldn't be playing the exception.

For example:

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

Part of the problem is those who want to play the exception, but the other part is those who don't reinforce why it is the exception.

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?... How should breeds and elves interact, I wonder? Or breeds and dwarves...? Elves and dwarves?

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

Breeds suck up to elves the way they do to humans. It's why nobody sees breeds as the people wanting friends as they are, because a breed sucking up to elvenkind would be a thieving little bugger in his own right.

Breeds don't care much for dwarves, since they don't have anything to do with their ancestry, but don't care against them either.

Elves would treat dwarves as rather annoying money faucets, perhaps much like a human could. The 'challenge' aspect from the elven viewpoint on theft isn't quite as great with dwarves though.

[Refugee]

I've only played one human and he was very short lived. I find the way I like to play my characters screams breed, as I can empathize easily with the social drawbacks of the player character, and it's convenient to hide my lack of sanity behind. Is this the wrong way to play? I've never really done the whole RP thing before I started playing Armageddon.

I hope my characters are believable.

Play however you enjoy playing.  The majority of the playerbase will react to it within docs, because we understand that's what makes the world real.  So long as you're cool with that, you're just fine.

[Twilight]

How a human might react might not be the same way another race would react.

I've only done interracial sex scene once on Arm.

My dwarf had a blah blah focus of something like "Become the most versatile assassin ever" or something like that.

He hired an elf to have sex.  Unfortunately, his girth did not kill her.  He planned to try anal next, to see if that would do it.  If not, he'd have to figure out something more extreme and creative.

Taboo, outside the norm, and yet it made complete sense for him.  And I wouldn't say he tried to hide that he had done it (although obviously he was hiding what he was trying to actually do from her).

[Fujikoma]

Play however you enjoy playing.  The majority of the playerbase will react to it within docs, because we understand that's what makes the world real.  So long as you're cool with that, you're just fine.

Yeah, I'm cool with that. Enjoyed the hell out of playing my last character... Wouldn't have been anywhere near as fun without all the challenges of it.

[Flincher]

How a human might react might not be the same way another race would react.

I've only done interracial sex scene once on Arm.

My dwarf had a blah blah focus of something like "Become the most versatile assassin ever" or something like that.

He hired an elf to have sex.  Unfortunately, his girth did not kill her.  He planned to try anal next, to see if that would do it.  If not, he'd have to figure out something more extreme and creative.

Taboo, outside the norm, and yet it made complete sense for him.  And I wouldn't say he tried to hide that he had done it (although obviously he was hiding what he was trying to actually do from her).

He tried to kill her with his dick? That is probably the best thing I have ever heard.

[James de Monet]

I might not be reading it right, is that what a human should think is going to happen, or how the various races are supposed to interact?

Yes and yes, to an extent. Humans definitely should expect other races to act this way, by and large, as those are the world's documented stereotypes. When playing other races, you should strongly consider playing to the docs, which, by and large will reinforce these stereotypes (though not necessarily with the same motivation the humans perceive).

Also, I might point out that the stigma against half-elves is probably more due to their origin (taboo elf/human relations) and not to their emotional instability, which humans probably simply find weird and uncomfortable.

In terms of "playing it wrong" however, you really can't do that. Make a PC with a believable, internally consistent character, and play them based on that character. While its more helpful to other players to see stereotypes reinforced for the feeling of the game world, you can play an elf-loving, gem-lusting, dwarf if you want to, just back it up in your char description, and try not to play such an exception with every character.

I once had a character that went on a full-blown bigoted tirade about elves in a bar, screaming obscenities and all, and eventually got booed out of said bar because he admitted he hated elves worse than gemmers. You can't please them all.

[BuNutzCola]

What I see more often is more akin to:

Well I had this experience with a gicker that was good for me. Rather than just  being a -little- less hating  on that particular gicker, I'll just be cool with them all.


Would rather the "a gicker did right by me" be more like in the movies, when the enemy dude gives a nod to the hero, and the hero  just barely manages to escape because they were allowed to, just that once because the hero saved enemy dude's sister's life.


Will try to find a link that's more coherent than the above statement

[Fujikoma]

Sounds like there's a delicate balance between survival instinct, and hate. Do you have to go out of your way to show your contempt, possibly putting yourself in harms way? Or just not say anything? Or can you just be polite, but distant except with those who've earned your character's respect and/or friendship while not associating much with others from that group?

I've read elsewhere about how hatred, or at least dislike or apathy, needn't be shouted at the top of your lungs all the time, but can also be applied subtly.

[Morrolan]

As with anything involving the proper RP of a character, there is going to be a lot of variation in how this is expressed.

The important part is that the norms are recognized. Your human character might be an elf-lovin' freak! (S)he's just not ever, ever, ever gonna walk into a bar hand-in-hand with an elf unless there's a life-or-death reason. The character can expect to be shunned by both communities, will likely lose their job, business contacts, trade contacts, and friends.

So, unless both characters are suicidal or stupid, that's not gonna happen.

Here's something else to remember: there are no social secrets in Arm. Like a small town, someone will know. Soon, everyone will know. Even if you hide it, people will guess. Even if it's not true, people will get accused.

Armageddon is Boys Don't Cry, not The Birdcage.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Armageddon is Boys Don't Cry, not The Birdcage.

That is really, really, really apt.

[Kalai]

Showing contempt can be as much a part of survival instinct as not showing hatred.
I mean, I'm kind of a chronic breed player myself so I can tell you: You try and cozy up with elves, it's helpful to rag on dumb roundears. You try and cozy up with humans you'll get some points for muttering about how neckers are arrogant worthless parasites. Basically trying to cement your place as 'bad but not as bad as them'.   It's a good way to build up that self-hate and resentment too!
There's a lot of subtlety you can put into hatred, regardless. Do have to realize that the reason elves are hated is because they are proud bastards equally willing to slit your throat or your purse: spitting on them is the kind of rewarding thing you want to have the power of a decently riled up crowd to do, if you're not particularly brave. Less overt forms of revulsion, mistrust, and fear are gonna be par for the course for the most part.
Krath, fear's a great emotion. It's an excellent way to incorporate survival instinct into your hate. These people creatures you live with are alien beings with a mindset that makes no sense to you and can't be predicted or trusted except that the differences will screw you over, makes perfect sense to be afraid of them.

[Riev]

I find it also pertinent to mention that, if you're a human and you -reaaaallllyyy- hate elves, you're probably not stupid enough to walk up to some high ranking Sun Runner or something and spit in their face just because they are elves.

Like someone mentioned earlier, think about whether your actions for that hatred would have allowed you to live as long as you have. Feel angry. Think Fucking neckers trying to drink in MY bar. Not every situation calls for "You're a necker and I'm a human so I'm going to try and beat you up."

Years and YEARS of playing in Tuluk has blunted that reaction in me, so that I've resorted more to thinks and feels around elves, and emoted overtly ignoring their presence or their conversations. Remember, punching a master assassin in the face will get you killed. Ignoring him altogether might get you a few extra days alive.

[Cutthroat]

I think a "normal" character can be very fluid. Characters don't need extreme opinions on everything and don't need to hold onto those opinions forever. They can even gain new ones. I like what Marauder Moe said about characters having one exceptional quality for every nine normal qualities.

I've read elsewhere about how hatred, or at least dislike or apathy, needn't be shouted at the top of your lungs all the time, but can also be applied subtly.

Sure. Take racism, for example. If you talk to racist people IRL, they tend not to randomly shout racial epithets at people they hate. The racism is more discreet and ingrained. Normal racism in game can just be simple prejudicial decisions ("I won't deal with that elf because elves are thieves") or opinions ("that dwarf is a bad bodyguard because all he does is make travel cakes"). Of course, the louder variety can work, and it really depends on how you want to play your character, but Zalanthans generally want to stay alive, and that should be a factor in the character's actions. This mentality can be applied to pretty much any type of hatred (magickers, the other city, tribals, even specific people).

[Is Friday]

I don't think modern American racism is a good comparison for Zalanthan xenophobia or racism.

[greasygemo]

I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

I have on occasion wished up or made a small scene in these situations, where im like gah, stop forgetting we are not just a bunch of people standing in a an empty room, there is a whole world here populated with NPCs and VNPCs as well as culture,history and complicated social structure!

The last time I wished up when people forgot to recognize what they where doing made zero sense IC'ly I was thoroughly happy with the result. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Don't play the exception until you're actually mature enough to realize you're doing it for your own detriment, not benefit. The exception in zalanthas gets crushed under the boot-heel of opression and survival of the fittest. If you want to play someone who is more likely to be killed or get no interaction, or only get negative interaction then go ahead.

I'm with Malken though. We've already got plenty of the  exception, so please, just play the norm.

[Fujikoma]

Still kinda having trouble understanding the "norm". Plan to give it a better shot the next time around, for the experience. Still, was a heck of a ride, might turn around and try doing something else terribly wrong if it seems like it's something my character would do.

EDIT: I just want everyone to know I'm not complaining. I wouldn't play breeds if I didn't enjoy the challenge. I understand why the game is the way it is, I just like exploring dark and hostile territory, if I didn't, I'd be playing another game.

[BuNutzCola]

Arm by and large, in my perspective, is a fear based society. So much of the social norms and taboos are borne out of fear.

You shrink at templars because they are fucking scary and daddy tektolnes is a god damn dragon (as far as most commoners would know)

Gicker kanking isn't taboo, it's all but fucking stupid and suicidal. It's not like banging your cousin, it's like using a loaded shotgun as a dildo with your thumb on the trigger, muzzle first.

In my mind, commoners knowingly banging magickers isn't a case of " oh that's naughty." It should be so damn unfathomable for the vast majority of all but those lacking in self-preservation or a shred of common sense.

Working beside a 'gicker? Hmmm, there's enough fear of what they might do, but hey the highlord has them collared, in a gemmer's case, and thus can protect you, maybe. But alone in an apartment and taking your clothes off? Totally different story.

Even then, before the average pc should ever get involved in that close of a relationship with a magicker, it'd be after years of familiarity, not a couple weeks chatting in the Gaj.


Just my opinions, of course.

[catchall]

- If a human gets friendly with an elf, that elf should attempt to screw them over somehow, steal something of theirs.
- If a human gets friendly with a half-elf, that half-elf should blow up in their face, becomes very anti-social, weird, etc.
- If a human gets friendly with a mage, that mage works to curse them, kill them, boil em alive for a magick potion.
- If a human gets friendly with a mul, that mul may get extremely angry at the slightest detail, go berserk, rage, etc.

This is a mix of very different things. I think it's important to distinguish between Zalanthan stereotypes based on reality and those which are purely cultural.  Elves are thieves.  So it makes plenty of sense for an elf to attempt to rip off anyone cozying up to them.  Half-elves are neurotic weirdos, so it makes plenty of sense for them to act like they are. (Although I tend to agree that in-game attitudes about them are probably more about EWW BREED than about their pathological psychology, which is within the range of human psychology anyway.  Even if breeds were exactly the same as humans psychologically, they would still be just as despised.)

On the other hand mages are not necessarily the Wicked Witch of the West, although your PC may well think they are. They're just normal people (or elves, dwarves, breeds) with magical powers and certain social consequences of that. The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains. They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.  I think it would lead to very one-note roleplay to suggest that every PC has to fit every Zalanthan stereotype (as opposed to just believe them), when some of them are simply false.  There are different kinds of prejudice on Zalanthas, some with basis in fact and some without. That's part of what makes the game great. As for the mul case, I think you're oversimplifying a bit, at least based on my reading of the docs, but at least it's closer to the elf/breed case.

[Fujikoma]

Suddenly want to roll a dwarf with a gicker-kanking focus... 

[Dalmeth]

What I don't think most people get about racism is that in most cases, it's not about the other race being bad, it's about your race being better.

No racist Zalanthan should neglect celebrating their own race.  Invite pure-blood humans for a drink.  Bring them in on jobs.

But for god's sake, if you have to bring in a dirty breed, give him shit pay so he doesn't start thinking he can make a career out of you.

Afterall, that career is reserved for a human.

[ShaLeah]

What is the norm on Zalanthas race wise? A quick read on the helpfiles will lead you in the right direction. That said:

1) Humans are fucking racists AND supremacists. A human would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other humans NOT from their city.
2) Desert Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A D-elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other d-elves. WAY above city-elves.
3) Dwarves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A dwarf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Any other dwarf from anywhere else is okay, unlike d-elves.
4) City Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A city elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. They would also know that everyone else thinks they are shit and hate that.
5) Any -gemmed- magicker should be walking on eggshells even worse than breeds. Just like everyone else NOT gemmed should be walking on eggshells around the 'gicks.
6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.
7) Half Giant's are stupid and to be used, duped, taken advantage of. They should never be found attractive by anything BUT other stupid giants but would probably be prime targets for sadists and other real big perverts cause of their usability and devotion. Your own personal puppet. Use is accordingly, stop treating it like a fucking cherished pet.
ALL Nobility are fucking racists AND supremacists. ALL nobles would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring perversion and slavehood which is NOT considered bad. In one place it's very clear, in another place you THINK they're not like that, but they are.

I try and give a little humanity to my characters, make them flawed and unperfect so I put at least one exception in persona in most of them but that said, as I play longer, I value more, respect more, the people who play the norm stringently. Kudos to you all.

[Morrolan]

The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

DAYS WITHOUT INCIDENT:

Year 1, Month 1, Day 1: I'm a Gemmer! Keeping my cool is easy.

Year 2, Month 3, Day 23: Branched rocket launcher today. I'll only ever use it for good!

Year 7, Month 2, Day 151: Byn runner spit on me. Weighed pros and cons for a couple of hours...got drunk.

[Delirium]

Social engineering at its finest.

[Fujikoma]

6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.

Sounds like my breeds, alright. Been told I do a good job with it, and I enjoy the feck out of it.

[musashi]

The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

DAYS WITHOUT INCIDENT:

Year 1, Month 1, Day 1: I'm a Gemmer! Keeping my cool is easy.

Year 2, Month 3, Day 23: Branched rocket launcher today. I'll only ever use it for good!

Year 7, Month 2, Day 151: Byn runner spit on me. Weighed pros and cons for a couple of hours...got drunk.

This is so awesome, and so true. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

What is the norm on Zalanthas race wise? A quick read on the helpfiles will lead you in the right direction. That said:

1) Humans are fucking racists AND supremacists. A human would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other humans NOT from their city.
2) Desert Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A D-elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Guess what, even among other d-elves. WAY above city-elves.
3) Dwarves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A dwarf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. Any other dwarf from anywhere else is okay, unlike d-elves.
4) City Elves are fucking racists AND supremacists. A city elf would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring rape. They would also know that everyone else thinks they are shit and hate that.
5) Any -gemmed- magicker should be walking on eggshells even worse than breeds. Just like everyone else NOT gemmed should be walking on eggshells around the 'gicks.
6) Breeds are pathetic. They'll do anything and anyone for a little lurve and attention. No self respecting anything would fuck a breed.
7) Half Giant's are stupid and to be used, duped, taken advantage of. They should never be found attractive by anything BUT other stupid giants but would probably be prime targets for sadists and other real big perverts cause of their usability and devotion. Your own personal puppet. Use is accordingly, stop treating it like a fucking cherished pet.
ALL Nobility are fucking racists AND supremacists. ALL nobles would know they are better than anyone and never want to dirty that. Ever. Barring perversion and slavehood which is NOT considered bad. In one place it's very clear, in another place you THINK they're not like that, but they are.

I try and give a little humanity to my characters, make them flawed and unperfect so I put at least one exception in persona in most of them but that said, as I play longer, I value more, respect more, the people who play the norm stringently. Kudos to you all.

I agree with... pretty much everything here except for the purposeful exception in most. Many times, they come to a slight or imperfect exception with one of the above, maybe two, but it's usually picked up due to in-game experience with the character. If I have a character banging a breed, for example... chances are they hate themselves every bit as much for it as other people would. Never done anything across race other than that except a single client in a single encounter who was a mul while playing a much abused and extremely masochistic prostitute pc.

That said, I have a dislike for the lopsidedness in gemmed vs nongemmed encounters. It's great to be the one hated and feared, and it's great to do the hating and fearing, but there's a lot of times where the fear seems to completely subside to be replaced with nothing but hate, and that's vaguely annoying to deal with (mostly when actually playing gemmed). Because then you have someone (often many someones) who are more than ready to kill you for ostensibly no reason, but aren't at all afraid of you, which... really leads to the thing posted by Morrolan above as fake bio entries. After long enough, it becomes a challenge of self-control whether or not you give them something to fear.

[ShaLeah]

I agree with... pretty much everything here except for the purposeful exception in most. Many times, they come to a slight or imperfect exception with one of the above, maybe two, but it's usually picked up due to in-game experience with the character. If I have a character banging a breed, for example... chances are they hate themselves every bit as much for it as other people would. Never done anything across race other than that except a single client in a single encounter who was a mul while playing a much abused and extremely masochistic prostitute pc.

That said, I have a dislike for the lopsidedness in gemmed vs nongemmed encounters. It's great to be the one hated and feared, and it's great to do the hating and fearing, but there's a lot of times where the fear seems to completely subside to be replaced with nothing but hate, and that's vaguely annoying to deal with (mostly when actually playing gemmed). Because then you have someone (often many someones) who are more than ready to kill you for ostensibly no reason, but aren't at all afraid of you, which... really leads to the thing posted by Morrolan above as fake bio entries. After long enough, it becomes a challenge of self-control whether or not you give them something to fear.

Maybe I should have written "barring being a sick, twisted rapist, or playing an exception".  In the case of the gemmers, a lot of times fear comes -out- as hatred. Like a skunk when spooked, you spray first, ask questions later. My first character fell massively in love with a human krathi. Head over heels sobbing when he died in love. Had I read the docs instead of winging it I'd have had even -better- roleplay, more delicious, self-loathing, torturous kind of roleplay. Since then none of my characters have ever fallen in love with another gemmer but a couple have feigned it knowing full well that to a gemmer, affection from a non-gemmer is like ANY affection to a breed. I mean, I think it would be anyway. It's also very cool when the high and mighty  fall, the naysayers, the haters turn to lovers. I dig that. On a couple of occasions that I've played the instigator into that kind of deception I've found my character wishing they hadn't gone that route. Some very hard lessons to learn.

All in all, I think we should strive for the norm and while playing that norm, for excitement and drama purposes, hope to meet an exception.

[Rhyden]

I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

This.

I remember a particular scene last year where my mundane was reacting extremely uncomfortably around heavy magick use and every other mundane around acted like I was the crazy one.

[RogueGunslinger]

I find all to often the people that seem to encounter a lot of IC issues/blocks/stigmas are those who are actively attempting to engage and RP with the world, meanwhile Joe blowMcElflovin' rolls along withot a second glance so long as they are maintaining the bare minimum interaction/RP.

Furthermore it seems like when you try to call someone out on how bloody ridiculous they are being, you are met with shrugs and whatevers. Sometimes outright shock and awe.

This.

I remember a particular scene last year where my mundane was reacting extremely uncomfortably around heavy magick use and every other mundane around acted like I was the crazy one.

I wish for once I could BE the person in this situation, instead of just hearing about it. It would make me feel incredibly superior, and like the best roleplayer in the world. Then I would report everyone else there and happily go about my day thinking that my interaction with those people, and the staff report sent, might actually make THEM into better roleplayers.

Everyone wins, yay!

[Maso]

You don't know what's going on in those people's heads. They could be squirming inside, seething, freaking out so bad they can't even move...they might even have wet themselves in fear...but they're trying to act cool so the 'gicker doesn't blast them...or pay attention...or whatever. Just because they look calm to you...doesn't mean they are.

[Fujikoma]

It's hard for a character to stare drov in the face while a gicker annihilates huge packs of his enemies without forming a small degree of respect, perhaps love, but mostly fear... Specially if the character is a Tuluki... Lots of fear there, and fear is... Well, figure fear, risk are things that make ya just wanna kank something. Nothing like staring death in the face to make a person want to make, love, for lack of a better explanation

That being said, I don't see it as so odd a self-destructive, self-loathing breed might poke a gicker (especially considering breeds'll stop to poke anything that gives 'em the time of day). even get excited about doing something so wild and out of the norm, but I do see why it should remain hidden. I dunno if you've ever stopped to poke something you're absolutely terrified of IRL, but if you haven't, try it  sometime.

Honestly, I figured his personal goal was -Can't say because it's too soon-

I love this, most of all: Find out IC. But that really doesn't help any characters who care to live.

[musashi]

You don't know what's going on in those people's heads. They could be squirming inside, seething, freaking out so bad they can't even move...they might even have wet themselves in fear...but they're trying to act cool so the 'gicker doesn't blast them...or pay attention...or whatever. Just because they look calm to you...doesn't mean they are.

This is fine, but if they're so convincing on the outside that it looks like they don't care ... well then ... people are gonna treat them like they honestly didn't care and are in fact, a filthy gicker lover  

So, be ready for that. The only PC's who can wink wink nudge nudge your terribly horrified thinks and feels under your perfectly composed at ease and cool with it demeanor ... well ... yeah ...

[catchall]

The experience of being a magicker may affect their outlook, but magick itself doesn't turn them into frothing-at-the-mouth villains.

In some, even many, cases, magickers' power does exactly that.

They might use their magickal powers for selfish or hurtful ends, or they might not, depending on the character.

EVERYONE HATES YOU, PEOPLE TRY TO KILL YOU, AND YOU HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER.

Well that's all very nice, but it's just your idea of how a mage PC should respond, and it completely ignores whether that is an IC response for the PC in question.  In "some, even many, cases" that may be appropriate.  In another some, even many, even most cases, it's not. It's only one way of many to react.  After all, if mundanes are supposed to be terrified of mages and avoid them for the sake of self-preservation, doesn't it stand to reason that gemmed, especially, would be terrified of Templars and avoid stepping out of line for the sake of self-preservation?  There is no support in the docs for the idea that mage PCs have to turn into murder machines for our collective excitement.

I'm also not convinced that attempted murder is that common of an experience for gemmed mages who aren't drawing attention to themselves.  They have a designated place in society and are largely segregated, probably to avoid exactly that kind of tension.  Most gemmed don't go on rampages. If they did, there wouldn't be gemmed.

[HavokBlue]

From a documented standpoint, attempted murder probably isn't a common experience for magickers, gemmed or otherwise, assuming they keep a relatively low profile.

From a gameplay standpoint, as soon as it's revealed that your PC is a magicker, one or more PCs will have a desire to kill you should the opportunity arise, and some will actively hunt you in spite of the documentation because "they aren't superstitious peasants who get scared of silly magick".

[AmandaGreathouse]

From a documented standpoint, attempted murder probably isn't a common experience for magickers, gemmed or otherwise, assuming they keep a relatively low profile.

From a gameplay standpoint, as soon as it's revealed that your PC is a magicker, one or more PCs will have a desire to kill you should the opportunity arise, and some will actively hunt you in spite of the documentation because "they aren't superstitious peasants who get scared of silly magick".

Everything this guy said.

Which is, again, what leads to the results posted by Morrolan...

Which goes back to the notion of roleplaying FEAR as well as the hatred playing into things. If people are simply hostile toward you, it makes no sense from a survivalist's mental standpoint not to prepare for them to attack you and have guns loaded in case you have to fire back, metaphorically.

IF people were playing more in accord with the documentation there, there would be less of the murders and attempted murders around magick users.

Edit to add: This is all my own experience. I'd pked one person, a magicker, with a magicker pc of mine. Everyone's mileage may vary.

[X-D]

What is amusing to me is, because so many people play the exception, or at least seem to, I get far more enjoyment from playing the norm.

When I play an elf, I work VERY hard to stick as close to the elf docs and tribe docs for that elf as is possible, and find it to be loads of fun.

On the mages, Most of my mages have rather high PK numbers, but usually that is self defense. And usually I am both amused and annoyed when that happens, in some cases I have really thought about filing a player complaint even though the offending PC is dead.

For instance, I had a mage, one of the ones known to be flashy and deadly, He was fully decked out in flashy armor, covered in VERY noticable magicks, all of which are impressive in looks and action. Everything screamed "I have no reason to fear...anything, and am doing my best to show it so you have the chance to live." I mean, if you met somebody like this IRL, you would shit yourself, it would be like looking at God in all his glory and then some. Any sane or even 1/10 sane person would run screaming or cower in fear...and yet, He was always getting attacked...it got to the point I really started thinking that the players were simply using him to suicide. It got so old that the one time a pc actually did cower in fear, I sent kudos.

Anyway, I bet if anybody actually made a PC with the intent to make them as close to the docs as possible, they would actually find it more enjoyable then straying.

[BleakOne]

What is amusing to me is, because so many people play the exception, or at least seem to, I get far more enjoyment from playing the norm.

When I play an elf, I work VERY hard to stick as close to the elf docs and tribe docs for that elf as is possible, and find it to be loads of fun.

On the mages, Most of my mages have rather high PK numbers, but usually that is self defense. And usually I am both amused and annoyed when that happens, in some cases I have really thought about filing a player complaint even though the offending PC is dead.

For instance, I had a mage, one of the ones known to be flashy and deadly, He was fully decked out in flashy armor, covered in VERY noticable magicks, all of which are impressive in looks and action. Everything screamed "I have no reason to fear...anything, and am doing my best to show it so you have the chance to live." I mean, if you met somebody like this IRL, you would shit yourself, it would be like looking at God in all his glory and then some. Any sane or even 1/10 sane person would run screaming or cower in fear...and yet, He was always getting attacked...it got to the point I really started thinking that the players were simply using him to suicide. It got so old that the one time a pc actually did cower in fear, I sent kudos.

Anyway, I bet if anybody actually made a PC with the intent to make them as close to the docs as possible, they would actually find it more enjoyable then straying.

I agree. I've found following the docs heavily lends to some very fun characters. I admit my earlier characters were not 'typical', however.

[Fujikoma]

Haha! I can't tell you what my character just did but even though it wasn't something I enjoyed seeing OOC I thought the concept was hillarious! Definitely trying to play a proper breed this time around!  

[Dakota]

What is amusing to me is, because so many people play the exception, or at least seem to, I get far more enjoyment from playing the norm.

When I play an elf, I work VERY hard to stick as close to the elf docs and tribe docs for that elf as is possible, and find it to be loads of fun.

The norms are actually pretty fun. Speaking of which.. I think it's whack a breed day...

[Barzalene]

I agree with XD about the docs. If you work inside the narrow framework of those docs, they provide a structure for your pcs. And then you can do anything you like within that box. But having that limit adds rather than detracts.

With regards to the freak out not freak out question, there comes a point where freaking out is sub-optimal. The best analogy I have for that is a grenade. I would seriously freak if someone brought one into my living room. However, if you're going into battle you might have to carry some scary gear. You don't have to enjoy it. You certainly don't take it to the bar with you after. While you're moving toward trouble though you rely on your scary tools and handle them with some measure of respect. Not affection though. Maybe not affection though.

[Fujikoma]

Having actually thrown a few live grenades, I will say they have earned not only my respect, but my affection. 

[Barzalene]

I stand corrected.

[Is Friday]

Magickers are not grenades. We understand grenades, know how to use them, and have them made so their results are predictable.

Grenades do not get angry or emotional. Grenades don't hold grudges. Grenades don't curse you or afflict you with illnesses.

Magickers do not function like grenades in a war fighting situation or otherwise.

Also, the structured training in our modern military is not even vaguely comparable to exposing someone to a sentient flamethrower that you are hoping doesn't know other, far more subverse or terrible things. Zalanthans, with a few exceptions, are ignorant of magick and its results.

[Barzalene]

True. Perhaps not the best analogy. I'm not sure if I was truly unclear and should rephrase or if you are just being pedantic.

[Is Friday]

True. Perhaps not the best analogy. I'm not sure if I was truly unclear and should rephrase or if you are just being pedantic.

I just want to make sure the new players understand the "fear of the unknown" that should exist in dealing with magickers.

[Barzalene]

Fair enough.
And it addresses the fear, which should be omnipresent. The other thing that should be clear is if a Templar brings along a gemmed gicker it's ok to have a freak out that doesn't hid up the event they've been hired for.
People shouldn't treat you as if your reaction is unfounded, but if they tell you to get it to hold it together - that's not necessarily beyond the pale.

[AreteX]

I probably find myself playing an exception often enough, but... I mean not really?  It's hard to explain but I will try.

I played a character that had an addiction of sorts and that would influence their decisions drastically.  This would apply in small measures towards their interaction with races, or gickers or whatever the case might have been. The reasoning behind this is the lack of control that addiction grants you and therefore, clouding your judgment.  This is an example of a character being an exception, but for good reason in my opinion.

I also don't often play overt racists because I just don't quite enjoy playing a mean character.  I have found that Armageddon can sometimes bleed over into RL moods(I'm sure we have all experienced this) and being hateful in a game is not really something I enjoy doing that often.  I try and throw one in there every so many characters, but the vast majority of my characters are not hatefully racist.  They are just bigoted like an appropriate "moderate" documentation follower.  I mean there are extremes on both ends.  Some people might not drink from the cup of a breed and make out with them, but they won't exactly spot one at a bar and immediately kick it's ass.

I think anyone who plays an exception probably feels like they are justified in some way by character interaction, development, background, or any of the other possibilities.  I think that is the important part.  I don't think many people are simply saying, "Screw it.  I think I feel like banging that gicker and seeing how fire feels in my butt!"  or "This breed is my best friend because I am foreveralone in a tavern and he is here!".  There are some justifications in the player and characters mind for these exceptions if they are made and that makes them character traits and part of the story.

[Twilight]

Magickers are grenades.  But they are ones whose pin has already been pulled.  You just don't know how long the timer is.  You know it will explode, just not when.  While you are still carrying it?  At just the right time?  Long after you needed it?

[Flincher]

I agree 100% with what Aretex said about moods bleeding over into RL. I strongly try to empathize with my character and when I'm playing I get pretty immersed and in tune with their thoughts and feelings. I probably couldn't play a breed for the fact the self-pity and general bad feelings would negatively affect my life for that reason. But also I am very anti-racist in RL so its hard to act that way in game. Generally I've tried to avoid situations where I have to come down as negative or hateful.

There was a point with my first character where I didn't have a clue about the lore of the world that I was just copy cating how other people hated on breeds, gickers and elves in the tavern. My current character would probably not share the same hate for these different people but would defiantly charge them extra for services. One because she can and two because she could always try to justify business with them if she is earning more.

[Fujikoma]

I've had plenty of experiences over the course of my life where in less than a span of a year some of my deeply held values and concepts have done a complete 180. I see no reason why, with the proper experiences, my player character cannot do the same... But the justification has to be there.

EDIT:

Thing is, I was raised a christian, but upon moving and going to a different church for a few months, and my experiences with the people there treating me like some kind of undesirable filth, sent me on a long and interesting journey away from all I'd been taught to know and to fear, into the unknown. But there's no real risk of death these days. Back in the day religion was a lot more difficult to walk away from. So... Still, there were people who did... Just not many.

Have I ever knowingly and willingly walked into a situation that could, or probably will, result in my death? Yes, yes I have. It's hard for me to play a character where the threat of death is so obvious and inevitable, and not take some risks.

[Patuk]

I've had plenty of experiences over the course of my life where in less than a span of a year some of my deeply held values and concepts have done a complete 180. I see no reason why, with the proper experiences, my player character cannot do the same... But the justification has to be there.

They can't, because it'll end up in them having to choose between either always putting on a mask and never telling any of their friends and family about it ever, or in them being an outcast from society and disliked and distrusted to an equal fashion that other social groups are.

But, sure. Change your entire mindset that you have been ingrained to believe in since the day you were born and which the entire society you have ever lived in and always will supports and does it best to support and will uphold for the next thousand years on the pain of extreme ostracisation.

Go ahead.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've had plenty of experiences over the course of my life where in less than a span of a year some of my deeply held values and concepts have done a complete 180. I see no reason why, with the proper experiences, my player character cannot do the same... But the justification has to be there.

You live in a world that fosters and encourages growth and progress. Zalanthas wants things to stay the same. You, under the boot-heel of society. Change is met not with open arms, but with violent and often deadly consequences.

[benegesseritwitch]

I don't see a problem with easing into "the norm" as a new player. Your first few characters usually don't last that long anyway. It took me a few characters before I was ready to fully embrace the prejudices and "grit" of the world.

[James de Monet]

Magickers are not grenades. We understand grenades, know how to use them, and have them made so their results are predictable.

I don't know, Friday. I see some parallels with grenades, especially for someone that has never thrown one. Sure, soldiers know they're fine as long as the clip, pin, and spoon are in place, but Barz probably doesn't. She just said she'd freak out if someone brought one in her living room. There are some characters who have training or experience around gickers. They're like the soldiers in the grenade analogy. People without, just see a baseball sized lump of potential death (cf a human-sized lump of potential death).  They don't know when that grenade (or gicker) will go off. They don't know how to arm or disarm it. They just know it can kill them, without anyone's help, without the aid of any other equipment, and they want to be far away from it.  Granted, grenades don't make decisions for themselves, but I don't feel that renders the whole comparison worthless.

I think something people are forgetting is that doctrinally, characters are afraid of gickers (at least to some extent) because of what happened in the past (ie the destruction of Old Tuluk by cataclysm, or of the known under the dragon), not because they necessarily have any personal bad experience with gickers.  I think this is also why the hate/fear question might not be as slanted as some are suggesting. Mundanes don't know for certain that Joe Gicker can or will do bad things to them. They've been told it, they suspect it, but most have probably never seen it or heard of it first hand.  They all know that they hate the idea of some freak having untold power and dabbling in the shit that ruined the world, though. In that light, I'm not sure I would expect to see more fear than hate. That's not saying you shouldn't still have both, though.  Just don't expect people to treat you with fear-respect when they're somewhere they know they are at least nominally protected by the law from your dangerous whim. They might cringe if you lift a hand threateningly or run if you start glowing, but up till then, they'll probably give you dirty looks and mumbled insults like any other undesirable.

[James de Monet]

Tldr; grenade analogy maybe not so off, hate/feat ratio maybe not so off

[Maso]

You don't know what's going on in those people's heads. They could be squirming inside, seething, freaking out so bad they can't even move...they might even have wet themselves in fear...but they're trying to act cool so the 'gicker doesn't blast them...or pay attention...or whatever. Just because they look calm to you...doesn't mean they are.

This is fine, but if they're so convincing on the outside that it looks like they don't care ... well then ... people are gonna treat them like they honestly didn't care and are in fact, a filthy gicker lover  

So, be ready for that. The only PC's who can wink wink nudge nudge your terribly horrified thinks and feels under your perfectly composed at ease and cool with it demeanor ... well ... yeah ...

Oh yeah. I am all down for IC consequences. Just saying...don't judge players on an OOC level when really you don't have a clue about what's going on their characters heads, backgrounds etc. More in response to RGS's inclination to report every character he doesn't see responding the way he would like them to.

[Is Friday]

Tldr; grenade analogy maybe not so off, hate/feat ratio maybe not so off

A grenade is capable of doing one thing and only one thing if the requirements are met to engage it. It does the same thing every time unless it's a dud.

Magickers not so much.

Players' or characters' perception of magickers should probably not view magickers as linear if they are keeping in line with docs, is my point.

[greasygemo]

I treat gickers like a caveman would treat a taser. Avoiding it with horrified and angry uncertainty that increases everytime someone I know gets electrocuted somehow.

[LauraMars]

A magicker may view her powers the way IsFriday views grenades - totally predictable, consistent results.  You're all overreacting!  It only works when I pull out the pin!
A non-magicker may view mage powers the way Barzalene views grenades - scary, unpredictable, bad things are gonna happen if they're in her living room, OH GOD, I don't wanna die.

To sum up, we can use grenades in a lot of metaphors, and people will have different interpretations of these metaphors based on their real world understanding of grenades.

[Barzalene]

I want to point out that the analogy was meant less to describe magickers generally and more to address situations when one is forced or interact with them in a structured situation.

[Marauder Moe]

As usual, context is key.

Stereotypes and stereotypical reactions can be taken too far.

If Militia Recruit Amos wets himself first time he sees a magicker in action, that's fair (but also fair to give him shit about it later).

Corporal Amos, however, is more likely to be a battle-hardened badass who has seen a lot of shit and probably should keep his composure.

That said, very very very few, if any, soldiers should be eagerly lining up for buffs and healz.

[Morrolan]

That said, very very very few, if any, soldiers should be eagerly lining up for buffs and healz.

Yeah, the buff thing is an artifact of other games. It requires a knowledge of magick that most commoners will not have. Some nobles might have it. The Templarate might have it, or learn it. Magickers might have it. Commoners will often think it's just darned sketchy/frightening/dangerous/.

But Lieutenant McBadass, veteran of the crap that happens, might have a few things figured out.

[racurtne]

As usual, context is key.

Stereotypes and stereotypical reactions can be taken too far.

If Militia Recruit Amos wets himself first time he sees a magicker in action, that's fair (but also fair to give him shit about it later).

Corporal Amos, however, is more likely to be a battle-hardened badass who has seen a lot of shit and probably should keep his composure.

That said, very very very few, if any, soldiers should be eagerly lining up for buffs and healz.

You don't know what kind of awful side effects that dirty magick could produce. Or what if they're secretly cursing you as they do whatever it is they /seem/ to be doing.

I believe even Lieutenant McBadass who has seen a lot of shit, would likely still balk at having it done to /him/ (her).

Moe is right about taking stereotypical reactions too far at times, but the short of it is, by far the most common response would likely to, at the very least, refuse to have any magick cast upon you willingly. Forced or ordered and convinced by a higher power it was somehow safe under his watch? Perhaps then a person would grudgingly relent. A small amount of worry would probably remain.

I mean, I hear that stuff makes you impotent.

[musashi]

A lot of my mages themselves don't trust other mages enough to let them cast on them, for much the same reason.

[Morrolan]

A lot of my mages themselves don't trust other mages enough to let them cast on them, for much the same reason.

Ayup.

[Vwest]

A little uncomfortable in here, all of a sudden.

Some of those Sues walking around the game started off as plain Jane and by the documents as everyone else; life changes people.

[Barzalene]

A little uncomfortable in here, all of a sudden.

Some of those Sues walking around the game started off as plain Jane and by the documents as everyone else; life changes people.

I hate that I am repeating mysel, but I'm sort of circling a point, please go with me.

Things do change. PC's have to be informed by events to be three dimensional.

But (again sorry) I think we all collaborate to minimize deviations from the norm, not because the deviations aren't interesting, but because deviations are less productive than maintaining the game world and flavor. At the end an act of collaborative will.

I think one way to reconcile the idea of character evolution with maintaining consistency is to at the very least set out with the intention not to be an exception.

[ShaLeah]

A little uncomfortable in here, all of a sudden.

Some of those Sues walking around the game started off as plain Jane and by the documents as everyone else; life changes people.

I hate that I am repeating mysel, but I'm sort of circling a point, please go with me.

Things do change. PC's have to be informed by events to be three dimensional.

But (again sorry) I think we all collaborate to minimize deviations from the norm, not because the deviations aren't interesting, but because deviations are less productive than maintaining the game world and flavor. At the end an act of collaborative will.

I think one way to reconcile the idea of character evolution with maintaining consistency is to at the very least set out with the intention not to be an exception.

I used to start all of my characters to be an exception, just to stir shit up. Now, I start them ALL with at least one thing that makes them exploitable, it's up to the ginka to throw something in place TO twist that character's life upside down.

I think there is a difference between adhering to documents and going against them, between showing some kind of humanity and being an unthinking, unfeeling, unaffected, untouchable, infallible obsidian puppet which is what that "don't be the exception, be the rule, you're ruining my immerzhunz by going AGAINST the docs!!!" thing comes across as to me.  Not so long ago I got the advice from up above to not be so "perfect" in the role I was playing, to not be so good at what she was doing that she never risked being caught in her deception.


Sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Play the role you've intended. Report regularly, keep staff abreast especially of any real deviations from character/docs and the reasoning behind it. Even if they don't like it, in my experience they will respect how the character is. As the moosh said:

This is fine, but if they're so convincing on the outside that it looks like they don't care ... well then ... people are gonna treat them like they honestly didn't care and are in fact, a filthy gicker lover  

So, be ready for that. The only PC's who can wink wink nudge nudge your terribly horrified thinks and feels under your perfectly composed at ease and cool with it demeanor ... well ... yeah ...

Be ready to accept the consequences of your character's actions.