One of the things we've been talking about on the staff board is making nobles their own guild, rather than having a noble's player having to pick between assassin/burglar/etc.

So, I pose some questions, because I'd like some player feedback.

1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?
2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?
3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?
4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Your feedback is most useful to me if you stick to the questions and don't move off into the realms of whether kanks should fly or who played the best noble of all time or why do these pr0n popups keep appearing on your computer.  Perhaps all of that could be saved for another thread.

Hmm.. Since nobles are all special app, would not it be better to let them choose their own skills in the application process?  And the clan imms could approve it and the char is made?

Well, we'd like to make it so that's not necessary, because that system sounds to me like one that would end up with a certain amount of grief on both sides.  When I'm setting up a noble for someone, I'd rather not have to negotiate the entire skill set.

I would like to see social/intrigue skillsets for all nobles.  Listen, Scan,
even Peek.  Mainly because these are people (unless totally absorbed
in themselves) who would keep their eyes and ears open.  Reading
and writing are a necessity, but for those particularly educated, maybe
a dead language to read and write in?

Subguilds...I think this could be something you guys could have fun
making.  After all, not all nobles are going to be in a life and death
struggle, so some skillsets may even be frivolous or contain rare or
odd skills.

Linguist is a must, but maybe some control over which languages might
be nice.  Some sort of Da Vinci-esque subguild where tinkering and
experimentation could be engaged in might be useful.  Tors absolutely
need a Myrmidon-like combat subguild focusing in specific combat
skills and certain weapon classes.  Fale I would make a Partaker
subguild, containing high resistances to poison, spice and alcohol, as
well as some minor crafts such as party favors of some sort.  I think
it could very well be divided up by house, some of these subguilds,
and definitely differences between Tuluk skills and Allanak skills.

Quote from: "Sanvean"1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

None.  That is, it depends on the noble in question, and certainly their city-state of origin.  I don't think you can necessarily just lump all/most nobles into one category.

Quote from: "Sanvean"2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

I don't see why they can't do this already with existing guild/subguild options.  Though I think nobles with combat abilities should be a rare and require staff approval before selecting guild_warrior.

Quote from: "Sanvean"3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

Yes, though I'm sure if I elaborated someone would tell me that this is best not discussed here .  But again I think they can make their choices using current guild/subguild options.  Therefore, in my opinion, a noble guild is simply redundant.

Quote from: "Sanvean"4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Well I remember eons ago whenever I played a noble I was told that unless you are a special RARE case, your character had to be guild merchant.  While I understand this decision, I don't think every noble would be raised learning Cavilish, the trademark of the guild_merchant option.  I also don't think most nobles would inherantly have the ability to become master crafters in every single crafting trade possible (which merchants can do).  So if you ask me, I think the standard noble guild option would basically be a merchant without cavilish or crafting -- in other words, next to no skills.  Though personally I'd rather not see a guild_noble option anyways.  There are simply too many variables affecting each individual noble (like what city-state, what House, their personality, etc.)

Elaborating on Pan's post above, I believe that being a noble means you
should have a superior education, not an inferior one.  Therefore, you
should be seeing nobles with a lot of esoteric skills and skillsets, rather
than just the 5 or 6 non-craft skills merchants have.

Therefore, I hope nobles with all their money and access to tutors do
not end up becoming inferior to the unwashed masses.

Well, most of a nobles skills are not hard coded abilities.  Therefore I can't possibly imagine an entire skill sheet devoted to nobles.

True, but there are quite a few skills that can be put together to simulate
it somewhat.  Existing guilds and subguilds are nice, but I always find
myself lacking in something I wanted for my pc, usually one or two
skills.  And with the advent of a noble skill list with noble subguilds,
more depth is added to the game while taking a bit of workload in
prepping a noble pc off the imms.

I like the idea of the social skills (scan, listen, peek) being standard for all nobles. Reading and writing are, of course, essential. I'd also recommend flee be considerable, since most nobles would have been taught from birth to hide behind their guards and get out of the way when necessary.

Beyond those, the problem becomes that a Tor noble is going to have a different skill set than a Borsail noble, who will be different from a Tenneshi noble, etc.  I wonder if maybe all nobles could have a small "core" skill set, and then each House could have an additional group of skills that its members get to complete the "guild"? Then the subguild could still be used to customize the individual player to some degree. (Yes, I realize this means a lot more work)

For example, a House Tor noble could likely defend himself (some combat skills), whereas a Borsail noble would CERTAINLY know how to negotiate a price in his favor (haggle). A House Fale noble might know more about arranging decorations and food for a party (cooking, featherworking, floristry).  ANY of them might have been a mischevious young noble with their fingers in the cookie jar (thief subguild) or might have taken an interest in herbs (physician), or the like.

So I guess my suggestion would be to have a few "core" skills that all nobles get, and then some House-specific ones as well to complete the guild. I've given SOME suggestions as to what some of these might be, although I haven't figured all of them out in my own mind yet.

I've never played a merchant House family member, but I assume that even the ones who do Agent work aren't necessarily merchant class.  It might be nice to have a class that had a bunch of skills useful to a noble floating out there, but I wouldn't make it required.

I am sick of every Noble I ever encouter having "sneak" and "hide."  Sick of it.  

Nobles should not have to rely on having any skills.  They are supposed to be catered to, and have others hustling to do their bidding.  The power they wield would almost require the stunting of classic skill development.

I would think that most Nobles are not even competent to dress themselves, and the simple mechanics of preparing a meal would be so far beneath them as merit only disgust at the disgrace of actually touching unprepared food.

Nobles' skills should include:  Read, Write, Fashion Tracking, Contact, Facts that Make Our House so Utterly Cool, Snide Retort, Bluster, History, Wheedle, Snub, Barrier, Oratory, and Walking in Obscenely Foolish Clothing.

Everything else, hobby-interests, should come from selection any one of the standard sub-guilds.


Seeker (way less than half joking)

So basically, their primary guild being Fale, Tor, Oash, Borsail, Tenneshi,
etc. and subguilds being added as well?  I rather like that, even if it
does mean several classes instead of one single noble class.

That said, I would still like to see unusual subguilds in place for nobles.

QuoteI would think that most Nobles are not even competent to dress themselves, and the simple mechanics of preparing a meal would be so far beneath them as merit only disgust at the disgrace of actually touching unprepared food.

I completely disagree with this statement.  I like to think of Zalanthian
nobles as being closer in education to what Paul Atreides underwent.
His tutors were well aware of the possible dangers to his life, and so
they schooled him in self defense, history, geography, etc., tailoring
his education based on their values and goals at the time.  I don't
think any noble, not even Fale, should be uneducated and helpless.
It does the role and the setting a severe injustice.

While I understand the reasoning behind making a noble guild, I too agree its very hard to lump them all into one guild.  My suggestion is make a noble SUBGUILD, that has all the skills that nobles tend to have.  The subguild should have quite a bit more then normal subguilds in terms of skills added, but there will be some overlap, and more importantly these subguilds reflect the noble's clearly advantaged upbringing, so i dont see a problem with them offering more in the way of skills.  Keep in mind, I am suggesting these skills be at a subguild level, not a guild level.

Some suggested skills:

City Scan (if such a thing is possible)-  Nobles are trained from a young age to be observant, be it to watch for thieves, or to thwart an assassination attempt by noticing a stalker.

Listen -  Reflects their social nature.

Read/write -  nobles are educated and thus literate.

Parry -  Reflective of a nobles combat training in their youth.  (Set this at a specific level, and thats that.  Nobles should NOT have to spar to max out this subguild level skill)

Improved starting level of Contact - It just makes sense.  It makes sense for all guild, but at least with nobles, it makes even more sense because they're often using the way to contact servants rather then trudge through their huge estates to find one.

Quote from: "Intrepid"So basically, their primary guild being Fale, Tor, Oash, Borsail, Tenneshi,
etc. and subguilds being added as well?  I rather like that, even if it
does mean several classes instead of one single noble class.

That said, I would still like to see unusual subguilds in place for nobles.

I like it as well. This would be the most accurate way of going about things. Family name is the primary guild and reflective of family education and emphasis, and subguild allowing for tweaks.

I tend to agree with the comment that nobles do not really need skills. The only ones
absolutely necessary I would say would be, Listen and Peek. It was my understanding
they are supposed to be influencial, and not need such things. They are suppose to
be keeping other people busy...But I wonder, with their skills and them training them, how
can they be giving people jobs to do if they are able to do the jobs themselves just
as efficiently as a new hire? I say Nobles get only those two skills, and that is it. But I am an
extremeist(sp?)

PS> My spelling sucks

Quote from: "wizturbo"While I understand the reasoning behind making a noble guild, I too agree its very hard to lump them all into one guild.  My suggestion is make a noble SUBGUILD, that has all the skills that nobles tend to have.

I think for the idea of a noble "class" to be viable you'd need both a noble guild and a noble subguild, with a scattering of overlapping skills.   A noble pc will opt for one or the other.   The guild version would include higher starting %s on, for example, psionic abilities, and include RW siri  and whatever suite public & staff decide is "generic" and an interesting collection.  The subguild would grant, say, one crafting, RW siri and listen.

Thus a character who wanted to be a linguist can still be a linguist; alternately, the warrior-princes can choose a melee class and not have to pester clan imms to set noble-specific pieces.

Added:  I agree with players who have already stated that being a noble should not weigh heavily on skills but on charisma.

If all nobles did was keep other people busy, the noble houses would
not have their own subcultures and tasks.  Obviously, there's more to
their existences if Borsail breeds/trains slaves, Fale keeps the city
lively and Rennik handles many of the foreign relations and outer
village activities.  Should those quirks be taken away too, just because
a couple of players think that all nobles are uneducated and pretty
much all alike?  That they do nothing for themselves or for the city
they hold sway in?

As for having training meaning someone needs no one...if that was
so, warriors wouldn't be joining the Byn, since they of course need
no one.  Nobles, regardless of how well they may be trained at
something, anything, will still need to delegate to other house
members.  So what if a noble can fight?  Someone always knows
how to fight better.  Not to mention, your best warrior can still be
taken down via sheer numbers or lucky shots.  Guards take those
poisoned shots for you, act as extra eyes, even for the best warrior
on Zalanthas.

And although skills are not the be-all end-all of rp, they are not
meaningless, as this is not a mush.  We do not redo a death scene
here just because there was not enough twitch and one-liners in it.
Skills can mean the difference between life and death for a pc, and
not just fighting skills.  Noble houses, all of them, have had to contend
with assassination attempts and betrayals from even other nobles, so
in a society like Allanak's and Tuluk's, I have no doubt that nobles
would ALL be educated in doing something.

Personally, I don't see any particular need for a noble guild of its own. Noble PCs choose what skills they want basically by selecting the guild/subguild. While it does put a hamper on what they CAN do, the subclass aspect gives you a good deal of leeway. Anyways, as it is, a character is a character, their personalities are independent of skill sets and if you have a particular set of skills you want for your character, a noble guild likely won't resolve the problem as it too would be limited to X skills.

Since players don't really know the skill sets of guilds (or at least they shouldn't), perhaps those applying for noble roles could include a listing of desired skills (including reasons) and then the imm looking over the application could give suggestions as to guild/subguild so that the player will get most of what is desired. Any special requests for skills would then be like a special app process? For the staff, if a particular skill request were made repeatedly then it would be a good indicator noble players want that in a skillset, giving the basis for a tested, desired skill list (given a follow-up query some time after the noble character has been established and had a chance to use those skills [if at all]). Sure you won't get a spiffy skill set that makes you into a super hero but then again, most nobles won't have use for many skills (just a personal thought).

It very much depends on which house they're from, in my opinion.  Too many people think nobles are completely unfit and overwhelmingly pampered to the point that they're basically useless as a man, and from my very limited experience, that's untrue.  That's more in the public eye.

It also depends on the character itself...I really don't feel that consolidating all the nobles into one class is the best idea.  Every noble having the same skills?  Meh.  I kind of like the variety.  You can all complain about nobles having skills they shouldn't have, but really...who knows what a noble spends all that spare time of theirs when they're growing up doing?

They're educated.  They have spare time from all their lackeys taking care of things for them, so to speak.  They have time to develop in a multitude of certain ways.  That Borsail -could- be the one who spent time doing business and studying the documented 'laws of economics'...governing dynamics, so to speak, or he could be the sick fuck who fucked slaves to make babies so he could open them up and see what makes babies live....or die.  

I wouldn't be opposed to discussion over what skills should be had between the chosen player and their sponsoring immortal, but that's time consuming, and you'd end up with people applying for nobles just to have a 'badass' character, which would end up breaking the role-playing and tend towards 'my noble is a kickass thug, and he'll take your ass out himself.'  However, the versatility of the discussion allows for each noble to be unique and useable by it's clan in different ways, whether it be running the military unit a certain way or staying behind the scenes, just offering ideas based on their knowledge of what's happening in the city.

I don't feel -one- skillset for -all- nobles would be a very good idea, though.  Like I said...I like the variety.

My intent was not to claim that nobles were uneducated, nor untrained.  Rather that they were extremely well trained and committed to many things that have no coded counterpart.

To master all that is required to represent his House in all the complexities of their business surefootedly in the political arena; to develop plans and direct the resources of his Family and hundreds of commoners to fufill those goals, is more than any commoner could ever be expected to accomplish.  I just don't think it takes maxxed wall-climbing skilz to do it.


Seeker

Commoner pcs often have virtual skills in their repertoire...does that
mean they have no other skills in their list and we should therefore
remove all the commoner guilds?

What if you did have a vain, athletic noble who climbed walls?  Just to
complete your analogy, some individuals have reasons for their skills
that reflect their pc's concept.  In this case, the noble just happens to
run an obstacle course on the house grounds under the supervision of
the house staff, as he/she/it just needs to keep that perfectly fit body
so he/she/it does not end up like Cousin Tubby.  Or maybe said noble
is a paranoid survivalist of some sort and likes to prepare for
contingencies like being trapped down a mineshaft or a dried up ravine?
Maybe the pc happens to be a safari hunter of some sort and has been
stuck down a chasm before.  You can't generalize pc concepts like
that without generalizing all pc concepts, even commoners.

QuotePersonally, I don't see any particular need for a noble guild of its own. Noble PCs choose what skills they want basically by selecting the guild/subguild. While it does put a hamper on what they CAN do, the subclass aspect gives you a good deal of leeway.

Agreed. They should be fine using the guild/subguild that exist...if they need a skill or two add them in...I don't see that as being much of a problem since they are special app pcs.

I will say I am a bit biased in wanting to see more guilds and subguilds
for nobles, since I actually would like to see more guilds and subguilds
for everyone.  More types of merchants, more types of commoners,
more types of warriors, more types of nobles.  I think the fact that
we have three types of thieves in the game is great, but I would love
to see guilds better able to reflect demographics: Race, hometown,
clan, etc.  Basing noble classes off of house is a great way to do
this.  I think templars had something like this in place or had it at one
time, and it was pretty neat.

Basically, I like the idea of losing the generic catchall that guilds give
and basing it more on upbringing.

As someone who has played in Noble roles that contrast each other, I can personally say that I don't feel there should be a Noble GUILD.

In and out of those sponsored roles I've played, I've met VASTLY different noble PCs as well as the NPC's animated by the immortals from time to time. A single skill set would have made them all vastly predictable, as well as useless in some of the areas revolving around their concept.

It would also be a hamper on certain Noble types...

Imagine being a buff Tor, swinging your sword around and acting as if you know something, and on your way to the north to fight the great fight... You get owned by a scrab in front of all your Scorpions... but then again, weapon skills are really a pretty much required skill to the Tors only. So a pale-skinned Borsail with a pot belly and a chariot to car him around all day has slashing/chopping ect... And better than say, a starting non-warrior guild for what reason exactly?

While I understand that a Noble is above and beyond the common populace, I don't understand why we would want to codedly make them a near completely predictable thing for others to assume upon.

Now as Wizturbo said, I'd be more than happy to see a Noble subGUILD, with a few skills that all nobles would probably naturally develop growing up, or through practical tutoring.

-Listen
-Scan
-Read/Write
-Language Skill (A new language specific to only the Nobility, perhaps something like DnD's High Common - High Sirihish?)
-A Limited General Crafting - to stave off boredom.
-A bonus to starting contact and barrier, reflecting the endless hassling by tutors growing up as the young noble spent too much time with the pleasure slaves, smoking spice, ect...