The Noble Skill Set

[sarahjc]

1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

Listen, Peek, barrier, flee, Languages -lots- of them, reading and writing in -at least two-. Barter and for fun, I think poison would  be fun.

2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

Yes, because each character is so different it is hard to give a specific skill set. But I think all Nobles/Templars should get automatic listen.

3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

That I don't know, I would think that more of the artistic skills would be given to the north, while more battle orientated ones should go to the south. That's just my opinion though.

4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

Abscure language, also not a skill but in depth history and lore knowledge.

[Gaare]

IMO game does not need another skill list. I believe merchant skill list has more than noble PCs need. Nobles have mostly uncoded skills. We do not have a charisma or inteligence stat so, there is no way to code them.

A noble born with such a wealth and slaves in the world of Zalanthas does not have to fight for his life so, probably he does not have any athletic skills in the list like parry, hide or sneak. (I ignore speacial cases like TOR) Maybe they have small hobbies of crafting and they must speak (sirihish, contact).. What else?

[John]

Pantaloufe's post is well thought out and I agree with it. I think most of the guilds that currently exist are pointless for nobles. But that's because I can't think of too many skills noble's need, and I definitely can't think of any branched skills.

I'd suggest (if it's at all possible) to allow noble PCs to forgo picking a guild and just pick 3 or 4 subguilds. Yes, they'll never branch a skill or ever become experts in anything, but I can't imagine why too many nobles would have a desire to become an expert in any skill. Perhaps it could be coded if they choose a noble class, that class bumps up the max for any subguild skills.

The only skill I would say are a must for any player that doesn't want to go insane with boredom is listen. For skills that would be good, Jacques has it completely right

If Nobles get their own subguilds I'd suggest considering making the subguild available to all (unless there are noble-only skills).

The only noble specific skill I can think of is writing style. Lets say there are 10 writing style skills (e.g. fluid, blocky, messy, etc, etc) and as a noble guild you can learn all of them eventually. You pick one to have 100% in, and then when someone reads your writing they see "written in a fluid handstyle in sirihish:" This would allow people to have to learn other styles so that they can forge other people's handwriting. It could be like language skills (so to change it would be "change style fluid")

[Intrepid]

Nobles pcs are characters first and nobles second.

[Bestatte]

I like wizturbo's idea best. Let the noble's player pick any of the usual guilds, and pick "noble" as a SUBguild.

This way, a Tor noble would have the warrior background that a typical Tor noble would have, and all the social graces that a noble of any House would have.

A Winrothol or Borsail noble might be more of the merchant type if they wanted - since their big "thing" is the slave trade.

And so on and so forth.

MUST haves for nobles: Read/write Sirihish at 100% perfect fluent levels.

Contact bumped up to at least halfway between what most human PCs start with and max.

Parry at a set level, no ability to improve; it's assumed he already had his training and isn't sparring in the barracks.

Listen; at a "competent" starting level.

Barrier; at any level higher than "Oh for chrissakes will everyone just shut the hell up?"

At least one craft other than cooking, maybe even allow the player to pick their preferred craft from the list during the character generation process.

I would also think a noble would come with at least some minimal level of piercing weapons; historically it was common in real life for nobles to have a small dagger or knife tucked away in a boot or wrist-sheath for emergencies.

That's all I can think of.

[Current noble]

Turnover among the noble population is already high; possibly the highest of any role in the game - certainly more than merchants and templars, at least from what I have seen.  I look at a lot of the things suggested so far on this thread and think to myself, "If nobles were changed to be like that, I don't know if I'd want to play one."  Don't get me wrong, I -like- doing the whole noble thing; I'm completely enamored of the political and social game that nobles play.  I don't rely heavily on my skillset, but it is nice to -have- one to use when I do need it.

Any change made to nobles needs to reflect the fact that they can be both tedious and demanding to play at times, and a few coded skills can help relieve that burden.  I don't see a need for nobles to have branching skill trees, though; in fact, I think it might promote better roleplay if Lady Greensleeves wasn't "practicing" skill A in order to branch skill B because what she really wanted was skill B but it wasn't a starting skill for her skillset.

Ideally, what I'd like to see is a noble version of each class, maybe with a few skills trimmed out, and no branching.  To give a generic example, let's say the warrior starts with the Clubbing skill, and at some point, that branches into Whomping and Clobbering.  Well, Clobbering's not something a noble would ever learn, so our "noble" version of the warrior starts out with Clubbing and Whomping, and never gets Clobbering at all.

[wizturbo]

Skills that I believe should NOT be included in this "pre-formed" noble guild/subguild.  Keep in mind, I believe the noble SUBGUILD should be formed, so any exceptions can be made by choosing certain primary guilds.  So if you want that kleptomaniac pickpocket noble you can do so.  Below is a reflection of what I believe should not be "average" noble skills.

Peek-  This is THIEVES skills.  While it might be very useful (and indeed it is) nobles can hire thieves to go peeking around if they want that done.  It doesn't seem reasonable to say that the "average" noble would have such talents.

Crafting skills-  Sorry, but I don't think nobles would craft anything.  The concept of "holding off boredom" is NO reason to have a certain set of skills.  ICly, if a noble is bored they get entertainment, be it a pleasure slave, a bard, a bottle of fine wine or a bowl of spice, they do NOT start knitting like a peasant.  If you want to make a crafting noble (who is probably more of a designer then craftsmen), the merchant primary guild is available, and can allow that.

Racial languages-  While *some* nobles might have reason to learn allundean or mirukkim, MANY would not.  Slaver houses might speak Mirukkim, as dwarven slaves are common, but why would they speak elven?  If a noble stayed in their estate their entire life, they would never see an elf let alone learn to speak their language.  Scholarly nobles might speak many languages, but it should not be considered the norm.

[Larrath]

I see no reason why a noble should start with the parry skill while other guilds, some of which are much more worthy, have to branch or just live without it.  The same goes for weapon skills.

About written languages, it is completely beyond me why every noble should be able to read and write in more than one language.  If they have this ability, it should be explained in their backgrounds somehow.


There is no true justification as to why a noble should have any skills other than listen, to be quite honest.  Not every guild starts with the Scan skill, and yet every Zalanthan should have the common sense to always keep an eye open.  Nobles, in fact, are just about the only people who have bodyguards around them at all times whose very job is to keep an eye open.  If anything, they should be worse at this than Joe Schmoe.

It makes perfect sense for me that a noble will be absolutely useless when compared to anyone else.  That's what they are - people with slaves and cooks and bodyguards that probably don't even know how to wipe their asses because they never had to try.


Here's what I say, then:  Nobles should get no weapon skills at all, contact and barrier with a tiny bonus, listen, ride, analyze, and possibly sleight of hand, and a crafting skill or two of their choice (with wagonmaking and the sort excluded).  Other than this, they should get Sirihish (with R/W included), and a language or two of their choice, without R/W.
No forage, no cooking, and possibly not even haggle since most nobles probably don't try to get lower prices in the marketplace.

Warrior nobles should take a Warrior guild, just like warrior thieves and and warrior merchants need to take it.  This will make the vast majority of nobles vastly inferior to normal people, and I think this is a very accurate reflection of reality.  Take a noble and put them in a new body and send them to live like a commoner, and they wouldn't last a year unless they somehow lucked out and got hired as aides or concubines.


Any other skills specific to the noble should be discussed with the clan staff members or the MUD account.


Also, I see no reason why nobles should have a special 'High Sirihish' language.  I believe that there are enough characters of an at least medium upbringing that should let them understand at least most of what they would say, which would make this little more than an annoyance.  If you want to talk in a language that nobody else understands, get something obscure like Anyar, Tatlum or Heshrak.

[Armaddict]

You guys are all right.

Nobles do -nothing- with their spare time growing up, learn how to do -nothing- at all.  They all just sit there and read books, get tutored, and get fat.

Please...a noble's lifestyle may be drastically different, but they aren't just floating heads, you know.  The idea of making nobles walking mortal targets for anyone with better skills than the average npc guard is...somewhat retarded, in my opinion.  I think they've had enough time to learn what will or may be useful in their future.

And also, I disagree with nobles having scan.  With people who rarely take note of those below them, I don't think they are going to be constantly searching for thieves and assassins in their daily work.  Unless it's in their background or personality somewhere to be paranoid.  This is what noble guards are used for.

[wizturbo]

I see no reason why a noble should start with the parry skill while other guilds, some of which are much more worthy, have to branch or just live without it.  The same goes for weapon skills.

Almost all nobles are trained in combat at a young age, its said in the docs outright.  Personally, I think some nobles should be the most talented warriors in the entire world in a dueling sense.  They have the money to afford the best trainers, and the free-time to spend perfecting their art.  Unfortunately, the only way to learn combat is by sparring, and thats not something a noble would do with non-virtual people so they end up sucking.  

On a bit of a tangent, I -really- would love to see some kind of duel culture amongst the noble houses, where quarrels are settled by duels.  Not all of them need to be to the death, it could be to first blood, like many were in the past real life history.  I just see sooo much neat roleplay that could stem from something like that.

[Larrath]

Nobles also view fighting as barbaric and beneath them, and do not really train because it doesn't take more than a poisoned throwing knife to end it all for them.  For the same reasons, there isn't a dueling culture on Zalanthas, at least with the nobles.  It just doesn't prove anything and puts them at great risk.

I really don't want to list what guilds don't get parry but should get them sooner than those noble wussies do.


Hey, I learned Karate for a few years when I was young, but it sure as hell doesn't mean I can outfight anything at all.  The combat training nobles get probably sum up to "don't let them hit the blood vessels, get behind the guards as soon as you possibly can, and hold the weapons right so you don't look like an idiot in front of that Salarri".  Nobles who truly devoted their lives to fighting (or have some fighting abilities) should pick an appropriate guild, be it a warrior or a burglar.

It is a player's responsibility to use their skills in a realistic manner.

[Xamminy]

Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

Nobles run the show, they don't DO the show.  Most nobles are taught that to spar with anyone runs the risk of poisoned weapons.  Anyone that spars, should run that risk.  I've actually considered giving some of those nobles that spar a little scare by poisoning a weapon with something non-lethal but scary so that they learn a lesson.

Continue the discussion.

[House Rising Sun]

Xamminy, that's ridiculous. Personally I view the "fat, inept rich-boy" image that we associate with nobles as VERY un-Zalanthan. These are the senatorial families of two city-states that have been at WAR with each other for-friggin-ever. The templars may very specifically be the official law and order of each king, but that shouldn't mean that nobles are restricted from doing anything with their very important, very expensive lives but sit around and try to look good. Nobles looking down upon martial activities as barbaric, or below them? Absolute nonsense. Eating cheap food or sharing a drink with a commoner may be below a noble. Formal training (by someone trusted with your life every day anyway) to keep your body perfect so your ass stays alive is NOT below a noble, it's a privilege. It's Zalanthas, man.

So to answer the topic's question, noble should perhaps be an invisible subguild that consists of a set of minor skills (listen, as everyone says) that can be attached by the pc's sponsor upon creation. Let main guild remain up to the player, as appropriate. And cut it out with this "don't be anything but a wad of worthless, cookie-cutter chairwarming dogshit" business, please.

[Bogre]

Nobles should not have listen/sneak/hide. They should have -others- do it for them. Now if they picked a sneaky subguild, sure. Nobles aren't bred to be informants, so they have to hire some.

[Morrolan]

I'm in a hurry, so I can't look up who I am agreeing with...(see above)

I like the Guild: Noble  (or)  Subguild: Noble option.

Two reasons for this.  One, it allows Nobles to have a little more personality.  Two, it makes sure that people aren't certain what the guild of any noble is OOC.

Noble guild skills: poison(!) (maybe branching to this); piercing weapons (hidden daggers); reading/writing; a second language...perhaps languages for the noble houses as codes (cool, but maybe too much of a game-change); value: (what was the original skill name?  the ability to know what things are worth...not for selling necissarily, but to know when to turn one's nose up in the air).  Listen might be useful as well.  Ride seems to be a likely choice.

That's my two cents.

Morrolan

[WoHop]

I concur with Dig on that 100%. I can't see any reason why a noble would be expected to be a chair warmer, in fact that is one of the things that can make the role so difficult.

Can't see it at all. Especially with war related houses. I mean, when you speak of poisoning sparring weapons??

First all the guards use those weapons every day so the chances of killing a guard are more likely. Secondly, I don't have a secondly, if you are going to poison a noble, why not poison something that they are sure to use. Like a favorite wine glass in their room or something. That just seems very over zealous and frankly an abuse of Imm power. I would be irate if I found out that my Imm did that. I don't think I have ever heard of a single time a player has died that way. I mean if someone can get in to a noble house and plant a poisoned weapon, and by luck a noble faces off –against- that weapon. I'd say that's a really impressive assassination and not a bad way to go.

Other than that If you were to speak of PC's. Well you trust them to guard you –all- the time.

It seems ridiculous that a noble, should they choose that path of education would be unable to learn to defend themselves. I mean surely I would think that they would be extra cautious and only train with certain people, but to say that they should not train at all.. That just doesn't make sense. In fact they should be privy to the –Best- training.

Being good at Martial arts has never been looked down upon in Arm, so I don't see why they should all have to choose the path of being worthless weaklings sitting in a tavern. There are plenty of other things out there that can kill them that are far more risky than a chance encounter with a sparring weapon.

[Gaare]

Personally I view the "fat, inept rich-boy" image that we associate with nobles as VERY un-Zalanthan.

I disagree with that. Once Tlaloc has written by email that I totally agree with:

Physical activity is -uncommon- for nobles, since they don't have to do things like lift heavy stuff, or break a sweat. Breaking a sweat, for leasure is a western based concept - not something Zalanthan.

Since there are thongs of slaves around, athletic perfection of the body seems far from Zalanthan noble for me.

[Ayashah]

Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

I totally disagree with that statement. In other Houses I can see that being the very odd case but not in Tor or other militaristic type Houses.

Now, on noble skills :

Sirihish

Cavilish

RW Sirihish

RW Cavilish

Listen

Higher psionic start sets (they are educated and probably trained from youths on protecting their minds)

Weapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

Shield use

dual use

scan

ride

High wisdom roll sets (they are educated)

Hmm, probably leaving out some, but a general thought on what they could possibly start with.

[jmordetsky]

Nobles are NOT trained in combat.  None.  Not even Tor and Lyskae, except VERY odd cases.

Nobles run the show, they don't DO the show.  Most nobles are taught that to spar with anyone runs the risk of poisoned weapons.  Anyone that spars, should run that risk.  I've actually considered giving some of those nobles that spar a little scare by poisoning a weapon with something non-lethal but scary so that they learn a lesson.

Continue the discussion.

And cut it out with this "don't be anything but a wad of worthless, cookie-cutter chairwarming dogshit" business, please.

Yea. I mean, I understand what you're trying to accomplish by discouraging martial nobles, but I cannot get *why* ....If one of the Imms wouldn't mind explaining the rational here, I think players would be alot more open to actually taking it seriously.

How does this make sense in the context of the zalanthan world, increase players enjoyment of the game, keep things balanced....anything...please..? I mean does it draw from some historical/fictional equivalent that I'm completely missing? Tor's not trained in combat? eh wah? That like the shogun not knowing how to use a sword.

Seriously when it comes to this policy in the game my brain does a total disconnect. I just don't get it.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Yes, indeed, Tor nobles, I know for sure are trained in combat, as the documents themselves say so.

[Stroker]

Weapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

What is considered a civilized weapon on Zalanthas, if anything?

[mansa]

1) What skills should a noble absolutely have?

Contact.
A Language skill.

- Anything else is fluff

2) Should nobles have their own set of subguilds as well, letting them pick, say, a noble that is combat-oriented, craft-oriented, stealth-oriented, lore-oriented, etc?

If the subclasses are 'good' enough, yes.  Is there any other way to say that?  ;P

3) Are there any noble skills that should be north or south specific?

Not from the present set of skills in game, no.

4) What noble-only skills might be useful?

NEW SKILLS!!!   Let me think about this for a while.

[Seeker]

I disagree that Cavalish should be any part of a automatic package for Nobles.  Bad idea.

But sarahjc's poisoning skill suggestion.... thumb's up.

[Ayashah]

Weapon skills but in the more civilized types. Perhaps swords and daggers, whips.

What is considered a civilized weapon on Zalanthas, if anything?

Hmm, I dont know. But bashing and smashing, guts and blood on the noble's clothes just didnt seem...civilized, ya know?

heheh

[Stroker]

Hmm, I dont know. But bashing and smashing, guts and blood on the noble's clothes just didnt seem...civilized, ya know?

You can expect that exact result from any weapon, unless they invented light sabers that cauterize wounds.... DID THEY INVENT LIGHT SABERS? Because if they did... and I missed it, I shall be very upset.

Sa'alam.