Quote from: Lizzie on July 23, 2024, 08:51:19 PMOr - we could put our real-world (and totally justified) sensitivities aside, and accept that the word "racism" in the context of fantasy RPGs doesn't mean the same thing as it means in the real world.

Or - we can clarify it more accurately, avoiding drawing any similarities to the these politically charged topics and needlessly provoking any of those (totally justified) sensitivities, while at the same time we continuing playing with as much IC prejudice and conflict as the game deems appropriate.

Quote from: Inky on July 23, 2024, 09:07:21 PM....

I disagree with your points. I think you already mentioned in another thread you haven't played this season so maybe you've missed some of the changes in the game. But even then in the past both humans and elves live in the Rinth. As for the rest, again it seems like more of an indicator we should indeed be more carefully and clear in our wording to further try to avoid some of the sentiments you've expressed.

jackiechan.jpeg

I don't understand the objection. No one says 'racism' in game, or at least they shouldn't. The closest anyone is going to get to using that nomenclature is saying something like 'the elven race' which...is that really upsetting people?

Quote from: Markku on July 23, 2024, 12:07:26 PM

Quote from: burble on July 23, 2024, 11:56:12 AMThis was softened a while back:
"If you are new to Armageddon MUD, you should be aware that the vast majority of half-elves are not the product of loving relationships."

100% this is correct full stop.

in Armageddon half-elves are NOT considered to be products of rape. there is no reference to sexual assault in the help file and there is no allusion to non-consensual sex there either.

the full line from the help file is:

Quote"If you are new to Armageddon MUD, you should be aware that the vast majority of half-elves are not the product of loving relationships. Elves and humans tolerate each other but relationships between the two are considered disgusting by most cultures in the game."

the reason most of these relationships are not loving is because if a half-elf and elf are in love then one of them or both of them will probably get stoned to death in the street. a lot of breeds are going to be unwanted children, orphans, grow up in squalor, be secret breeds, not know a parent or both parents, etc: the children born from relationships that most people consider to be absolutely abhorrent.

there is no allusion to sexual violence. there is no reference to and there is no thematic expectation of behavior that is against the rules of the game.

i know this because i wrote the help file after complaining about it on discord until mansa told me to write the help file and i wrote the new help file.

i originally removed the OOC note entirely and staff wrote a new line, explained the context, and also that it was for the purpose it stated which was to help new players understand their background would likely be tumultuous.

i think it reads fine without putting it in the context of a deleted help file but tbh if anyone thinks it's unclear or something maybe put in a request with a fix?

thanks for coming to my ted talk.

edit: i don't know why it's so easy to quote instead of quick edit

My personal opinion on the subject is that while I understand the intent behind the original point, I don't personally see it as necessary.  I think most people can see the game and understand that elf vs human vs dwarf is just a game, and not really the same as real life racism.  Since this is specifically about the word being used, I'm actually kind of curious now, do we have documentation that uses the word racism?  A real quick grep of our helpfiles does not turn up the word even once.  So does our documentation say racism or is it just an understood concept?  Can anyone find the word in our documentation?  If we were to change, where would we even do that?

I think this discussion is a great one to have, and I appreciate people having and being mostly civil and respectful of each others opinions.  I personally haven't read anything here that makes me think this change is worth it, or even required (if it's not in our docs?).

Help files say racism 3 times. This is the first and imo most important:

Quotehttps://www.armageddon.org/help/view/What%20You%20Know

Zalanthans tend to be very xenophobic, both with respect to other species, and with respect to those outside their city and/or tribe. Humans, for instance, distrust elves, and elves, in return, view humans as inferior. However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas.

To halaster's point it seems already explicitly separating arm  from the word and from its modern usage.

But new docs slip and use racism instead of xenophobia. Maybe this is what OP was looking at?

Quotehttps://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves

Please note that player characters of city elves should expect to be at least mildly inhibited by social stigmas and racism. It is well known in elven circles that the systems of oppression in the city-states exist to uplift the dominance of humans over all other races and has been this way for many, many generations. Elves are subject to social exclusion, heavy handed and unfair punishments by humans in power, and a social glass ceiling.


https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Elven%20Market
While people from the city proper are not disallowed from the market, it is considered common sense that undermining the order and profitability of the market will generally result in a unified front of elves.. This combined with social stigmas and racism make such ventures by more established powers of the city extremely rare.

This is the extent of the word racism in help files. 

... it sounds like the two instances of 'racism' being used were a mistake and should just be corrected to keep the separation from modern-day terminology.

Quote from: Halaster on July 23, 2024, 11:23:55 PM....

After a quick search function result on the website those are some of the results (see below, they also exist in-game) but to be fair the documentation does have a small blurb that 'racism' in game isn't the same as RL racism

After seeing some of the comments here, seeing some of the comments in other places, and having seen some of the behavior in game over the last few years, all of them seemingly swaying in one direction or the other, it does seems to me some people in the community do tend to views races , mostly elves not as a different species but as humans who look different.

I won't comment on whether any change is necessary or not, or even if any changes will make any difference,  its not my decision and I can't see the future. I will only say  that with exception to a heartfelt post or two on the forum, the game has put zero effort to correct or differentiate from these sort of views over the years. And I do personally feel it has made playing a 'racist' or being on the receiving end of 'racism' sometimes not feel like that great of RP experience in this game.

But I'm okay to admit that perhaps that is just me, c'est la vie. 

QuotePlease note that player characters of city elves should expect to be at least mildly inhibited by social stigmas and racism. It is well known in elven circles that the systems of oppression in the city-states exist to uplift the dominance of humans over all other races and has been this way for many, many generations. Elves are subject to social exclusion, heavy handed and unfair punishments by humans in power, and a social glass ceiling. Migrating to places without this racist hierarchy, such as Luir's Outpost or Red Storm Village, is a hard choice some city elves make in order to achieve their goals or escape implicit harm simply based on who they are.

QuoteThe requirements of engaging with the market are few. It's mildly frowned upon to expect elves to speak in any other tongue than Allundean, and that makes interpreters a more common sight even if the elves here are known to speak sirihish. Violence is frowned upon within the market and in the main avenue from the city proper to it; the occasional group of vagabonds or lonefeet gangs that see profit in mugging those traveling the path are dealt with swiftly, if they are caught.. While people from the city proper are not disallowed from the market, it is considered common sense that undermining the order and profitability of the market will generally result in a unified front of elves.. This combined with social stigmas and racism make such ventures by more established powers of the city extremely rare.

I cannot speak much of these matters, but the inner racial conflict and overall abuse to half-elves, isn't that a torture caused by race at highest level. If there is somewhere to fix, half-elves need a touch, imo.

The only problematic use of the word 'racism', should be out of the mouths of the people of regular, common people of Zalanthas. Even 'Speciesism' is a little iffy. See, I'm coming at this from a strange angle possibly, because there have been good arguments made that people without literacy can have excellent vocabularies, and there have been a lot of strides over the years towards making the prejudices in the cultures of the Known World be clearly delineated from any kind of topside, OOC endorsement of prejudices or discrimination.

In many places in Armageddon's make believe world, the fantasy race (used colloquially, not scientifically ((because 'race' has a fuzzy definition across differing environments))) 'Half-elf' is a threat to the status quo, because purity of blood is a function of the ruling classes strangehold on the minds of the lowest class. These terrible, post-apocalyptic authorities wielding dread magicks and hoarding natural resources own slaves. They don't let anyone read.

Nobody that a player can play has a dedicated, hard copy book to reference the truth of the matter, or the origin of species, or any of our clever debates we like to inject into the game. Everyone one of is a philosopher and just innately knows some things that we carry over from the real world, but the level of discourse between the man who thinks holding up a match in a cave will guide him out of a cave and the man who thinks the flame could lie to him despite whira's previous favor, she's fickle after all, it could lead them to the greatest danger etc, the level of discourse between them would be astronomically equivalent. No one would have a single source to back anything up, and 'convincing' people of anything but their current beliefs is kind of ... kind of a distant notion, right?

We have a Merchant House that sells razor sharp obsidian bladed knives, and people literally willing to commit genocide for a taste of that good magick, anyone debating the fundamental difference between species and race /In Game/ are most certainly anomalies and are never going to be anything more than very very very different from NPCs and VNPCs.

I hope my point is clear.

tl;dr look at those weirdos talking about race and species. What kinda words are those? We should probably kill them and take their stuff, because the powers that be crush them for being different.

Quote from: Agent_137 on July 23, 2024, 11:37:33 PMHelp files say racism 3 times. This is the first and imo most important:

Quotehttps://www.armageddon.org/help/view/What%20You%20Know

Zalanthans tend to be very xenophobic, both with respect to other species, and with respect to those outside their city and/or tribe. Humans, for instance, distrust elves, and elves, in return, view humans as inferior. However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas.

To halaster's point it seems already explicitly separating arm  from the word and from its modern usage.

But new docs slip and use racism instead of xenophobia. Maybe this is what OP was looking at?

Quotehttps://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves

Please note that player characters of city elves should expect to be at least mildly inhibited by social stigmas and racism. It is well known in elven circles that the systems of oppression in the city-states exist to uplift the dominance of humans over all other races and has been this way for many, many generations. Elves are subject to social exclusion, heavy handed and unfair punishments by humans in power, and a social glass ceiling.


https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Elven%20Market
While people from the city proper are not disallowed from the market, it is considered common sense that undermining the order and profitability of the market will generally result in a unified front of elves.. This combined with social stigmas and racism make such ventures by more established powers of the city extremely rare.

This is the extent of the word racism in help files. 

Thanks for pointing those second two selections out. I'll bring them up on the staff DB today if someone hasn't already by the I am able.

It sounds like there is some discussion on whether the use of racism in document has just been a small oversight in a couple sections. Or whether or not the terms racism is even used or said in game.

Who knows.

Here is what I do know,  I will be curious to see the direction the in-game continues to take in regards to some aspects of gameplay. I have to admit, I originally did not liked some of what I've saw and would have preferred to see a different approach but I am feeling much more supportive and appreciative now. Kudos for that. 

Quote from: Agent_137 on July 23, 2024, 11:37:33 PM...

Agent here showing everyone how I have no clue how to search, lol.

Thanks for finding these.  It's not as much as I expected.

Why exactly do we need this discussion, this thread?

Can we just stop trying to interpret something vile and sinister into every little thing that one might find? What's next, strike slavery from the game? Remove combat because muh feehlingz?

There's a line where it turns from acceptable changes to hyper-woke SJW bulldung.

The term "racism" was most likely simply employed as a broad descriptor at a time when societal sensitivities were different. A more precise term might be "speciesism" or simply "prejudice."

However, isn't prejudice based on skin color also significant? People who spend extended periods under harsh sunlight tend to have darker skin compared to those who remain indoors. This concept mirrors the preference in certain cultures, such as Allanak, where style is valued over practicality. In these societies, wearing restrictive fashion is seen as more prestigious than loose, functional clothing. The more skin you expose and the looser your attire, the lower your social standing.

The underlying idea is similar to that of skin tone (perhaps shade is a better term, encompassing a variety); it implies a privileged life where others perform the laborious tasks, allowing one to lead a more pampered existence.

Quote from: mirk_o_loio on July 24, 2024, 11:18:19 AMWhy exactly do we need this discussion, this thread?

Can we just stop trying to interpret something vile and sinister into every little thing that one might find? What's next, strike slavery from the game? Remove combat because muh feehlingz?

There's a line where it turns from acceptable changes to hyper-woke SJW bulldung.

I'd definitely prefer to not have slavery as a central theme of the game, yep.

It's a discussion board, where a civil discussion is taking place -- There's no need to sling names (SJW Bulldung) or otherwise detract from the conversation. No one is really name calling or attacking anyone else, we're just having a discourse about these topics.

Some interesting videos/articles to peruse that explore fantastical racism, with some arguing for reasons to change settings/game IP, others arguing for how it is integral to telling stories within those IP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuyZsyUnaCc

https://www.wired.com/story/dandd-must-grapple-with-the-racism-in-fantasy/

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/nov/03/racism-fantasy-fiction-role-playing-games

https://www.garfieldmessenger.org/8094/articles/ae/fantastical-racism/

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/a41296431/lotr-game-of-thrones-race-amazon-hbo-lord-of-the-rings/

https://electricliterature.com/elaine-castillo-how-to-read-now-essays/

https://www.thegamer.com/fantasy-racism-baldurs-gate-3-affected-me-tiefling-slur/

Quote from: mirk_o_loio on July 24, 2024, 11:18:19 AMWhy exactly do we need this discussion, this thread?

Because it involves several huge themes of the game, communicates expectations, and we get to share our feelings about that. Perhaps there should be a trigger warning, seems it seems a sensitive topic?

There are multiple cultures clashing IG right now, perhaps more than usual, who can say, but it's definitely affecting people's roleplay during this current, active season. So, it's relevant perhaps to point out that IC racisim/speciesm/racial bias/prejudice/othering is in no way condoning it. To keep it fun, as it currently is for me, someone brought up concerns.



One of the reasons I joined this game, in the very beginning, was because bad things existed ICly, and were discouraged heavily ooc. It is a chance, for me personally, to fight bad things without getting oocly murdered, with people who also get that it's pretty human in general to fight bad things.

Also, there's no way I'm reading all of those links. Sorry.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on July 24, 2024, 11:21:39 AMThe term "racism" was most likely simply employed as a broad descriptor at a time when societal sensitivities were different. A more precise term might be "speciesism" or simply "prejudice."

However, isn't prejudice based on skin color also significant? People who spend extended periods under harsh sunlight tend to have darker skin compared to those who remain indoors. This concept mirrors the preference in certain cultures, such as Allanak, where style is valued over practicality. In these societies, wearing restrictive fashion is seen as more prestigious than loose, functional clothing. The more skin you expose and the looser your attire, the lower your social standing.

The underlying idea is similar to that of skin tone (perhaps shade is a better term, encompassing a variety); it implies a privileged life where others perform the laborious tasks, allowing one to lead a more pampered existence.

Do not nobles from Houses Rennik and Tor have darker skin, typically?

Quote from: mirk_o_loio on July 25, 2024, 05:01:25 AM

Quote from: Down Under on July 24, 2024, 05:52:25 PMI'd definitely prefer to not have slavery as a central theme of the game, yep.

If a game's themes offend you, why are you playing that game? 

We can murder eachother, codedly dismember one another and do a whole lot of other despicable things trough coded features. Yet people get upset because slavery exists. Like, what's the point? What exactly are you trying to achieve by forcing needless 'change' onto a game that has been quite fine and dandy for so long?

The Evil Staffmembers Shaloonsh and co are defeated, so you must find a new enemy. This time, it's 'racism' and 'slavery' ingame.

 This is how it's starting to look. Intentional searching and making of issues.

The themes of the game don't offend me. We are just the racism / slavery RPI. I think it narrows our audience.

At the very least, these "central themes" could be relegated to the background similar to how half elves being the product of rape has been diffused.

We don't need racism or slavery to tell good stories.

Similar arguments were used by players for keeping rape in the game. I'm glad that was removed, and I hope consideration is given to modernizing the MUD away from themes created/emphasized by teenagers in the 90s who likely didn't have any idea the game would last this long or be played by so many different people.

Slavery has been diffused to the background.

Racism has been diffused to the background.

There's currently Elves owning successful businesses in human cities. With next to no public judgement against them.

There's no real player slaves. And no in spite of arguments to the contrary Gemmed do not count.

Beyond that, and the following is just my interpretation of the arguments roots, and should not be viewed as fact.

I think a lot of the issue people are making in this thread, come from people not understanding stratified caste based societies. Because it's really not racism, speciesism, or prejudice they seem to be complaining about. It's the very nature of caste based society, which in Arm includes all of those things, along with classism. And yes, there's a lot of fuckery with these types of society. Yes it wards certain types of people away, especially those who can't grok with the regimented nature of them. Or the judgmental nature of them.

But removing that caste based nature from the game will remove a center fork of conflict from the game. And would need to be heavily considered as to if that fork of conflict is a good thing to remove. And what would go into replacing it. Right now, I can tell you as an example, that as a commoner of allanak, I likely respect nobles and fear templars, hate rinthi's, am ambivalent or suspicious of elves, and fear the outdoors. And can align myself upon that based on upbringing. Or even deviate from that based on my interest in defying the caste based system. It opens up conflict alleys for me to work though.

Were we to get rid of the racism, the slavery, the caste based system at the root of the problems people are finding. It would be much harder to root ourselves in the society we're dealing with as characters. It would require extensive rewrites of nearly every facet of society.

Just my two cents.

Quote from: RheaGhe on July 25, 2024, 08:22:28 AMAnd no in spite of arguments to the contrary Gemmed do not count.

This is the only thing I don't really agree with. They basically wear a bomb collar around their neck and have to do everything the templarate asks under the threat of torture or death. I don't really know how you get closer to slavery than that.

Quote from: Kavrick on July 25, 2024, 08:58:18 AMThis is the only thing I don't really agree with. They basically wear a bomb collar around their neck and have to do everything the templarate asks under the threat of torture or death. I don't really know how you get closer to slavery than that.

This interests me but we are going off topic a bit so sorrrry...

So yeah it's pretty close, but they can just freely leave the city and live in a cave or luirs or red storm or mul outpost without the Templarate hunting them down. And ICly many chose the gem willingly both virtually and in player backgrounds.

It's close but it's not. I don't know any real life parallel.

This is not an argument, but a sincere question to anyone who feels this way:

How do you feel slavery is "central" to the game?
The only playable salves are those who have escaped slavery.
(exception: Gladiators who are an occasionally available short-term roles that people apply into "specially" while being able to maintain a non-slave character.)
One of the main play areas is very anti-slavery and slavery is illegal there.
One of the playable clans at the end of season Zero was a devoutly anti-slavery antagonist group that preyed on slavers.
No one is interacting with slaves (except perhaps virtually) on a regular basis, not even the social classes that own them.


P.S. - The reason I am asking and following this mini-derail is that I am working on an updated document/helpfile about prejudice, and had not thought to include slavery in it.  I would like for the update to address as many concerns as possibly, particularly for new players.