There is no 'racism' in ArmageddonMUD

[Halaster]

We identified, what, three or so uses of the word racism in our documentation?  We can easily change it to say "prejudice against", or something similar, which is fine in my mind.

That said, in my view it basically changes nothing.  The concept still exists in the game, different races are still going to be mistrustful of each other because of no other reason than their race.  Sure, we've toned that down with city elves a bit, but it still can and does exist.  So the way I look at it is:  Changing 3 or so instances of one word to another and it makes a couple of people happier, but nothing in the game changes?  Easy win.  Move on.

[Dresan]

I think the slavery thread should have been a different thread as it dilute the original conversation of 'racism'.

Back to the original topic:

1. Racism in game is not like racism in RL(no one should disagree)
2. Some people are still confusing races, particularly elves, as human that just look different making 'being racist or racism' feel awkard to RP for some. (Some agree, some don't, or are unsure how much of a 'problem' it would be in todays much more 'equal' game. )
3. What to do about it? Should we clarify? Differentiate? Some other idea to get the message across? Or nothing at all because who gives a damn about any feelz. (This is where most people disagree for a variety of reasons including whether changing semantics even makes a difference)

It seems that game has decided to make some changes to the documents. Hope it brings it more success and longevity. The other topics particularly on slavery are completely different and i believe its diluting the message of this one.

That said, in my view it basically changes nothing.

 ...we've toned that down with city elves a bit...

 Easy Win. Move on.

At best you are misinterpreting the original problem, at worst the changes to documentation are probably also meant for you. 

To be perfectly clear, if everyone understands point number one clearly, that racism is not like RL, that we are talking about different subspecies, why does toning it down with elves even matter in this conversation?

It did not feel like easy win to me, either way happy to move on.

[Agent_137]

1. @lonely  I disagree with any position that makes being born into slavery okay because they get fed. Jfc.


2. @sleepyhead I didn't mean you could avoid all bad things if you asked staff. I meant if you're triggered by slavery then there might be ways to largely avoid it like being a tribal


3. @Markku  This started out talking about racism which a lot of people deal with IRL and may not enjoy RPing around it.  That makes sense.  Slavery less people deal with IRL but in many places it's closely linked to racism so I can still see it being unfun for some people to RP around. Murder on its own isn't tied to racism so imo it's obvious why nobody would even suggest banning it. 

4. @ all Xenophobia is the term we should be using.  we have already used that word for years and years. Racism is newly added to the elf docs and should be fixed to Xenophobia. It's more accurate than speciesism or racism or prejudice.

[burble]

The important question is - does it keep people from wanting to try out the game?

I am the ghost of Armageddon past not the future. I'm old enough to have seen the world change. Maybe race is not a good word for this day and age.

Words matter - ask someone who is in advertising. Look around your room at all the useless shit you've been talked into buying over the years or the harmful garbage you eat.

Word meanings change - try watching a 1930's/40's movie. Most of the sexual innuendo/insults will pass right over you, gunsel. Especially highly charged words. Maybe race has become one of those words?

But, I'll make a case why xenophobia is illogical and not well thought out for Arm the fantasy world.

Consider:
An elf is loyal to their tribe - why would an elf care more for another elf over a human? You are either a tribe member (most favored status) or not (indifferent, hostile, beneficial). If anything an elf would understand another elf is looking out for THEIR tribe's best interest. In that sense, a human might be a better friend/business partner. Ahem, like those 2 in Red Storm.

A dwarf is loyal to their focus - over anyone or anything..unless that focus IS someone or something. So why would a dwarf care more for another dwarf? You are: beneficial to the dwarf's focus, hindering it, or neutral. Brings up the question, would a dwarf kill his family for/over his focus? Is a "dwarf hating" focused dwarf a badly played dwarf (focus: last dwarf standing)?

You can sneer at the half-elf stablehand all you want but it's not fair that he can't slip a rock underneath your beetle's shell so it reverts back to the wild on you when you get far enough from the city.

What about a human raider who rides up on an elf grebber: "An elf killed my pa. You die."
Does that even make sense given that elves are known by their tribe NOT by their biological makeup? That's more like RL racism and is probably the scenario that is most disagreeable.

That's how I see things.

[Veselka]

1. @lonely  I disagree with any position that makes being born into slavery okay because they get fed. Jfc.


2. @sleepyhead I didn't mean you could avoid all bad things if you asked staff. I meant if you're triggered by slavery then there might be ways to largely avoid it like being a tribal


3. @Markku  This started out talking about racism which a lot of people deal with IRL and may not enjoy RPing around it.  That makes sense.  Slavery less people deal with IRL but in many places it's closely linked to racism so I can still see it being unfun for some people to RP around. Murder on its own isn't tied to racism so imo it's obvious why nobody would even suggest banning it. 

4. @ all Xenophobia is the term we should be using.  we have already used that word for years and years. Racism is newly added to the elf docs and should be fixed to Xenophobia. It's more accurate than speciesism or racism or prejudice.

Very well put. I think it's easy to overlook implicit bias if you are not a person of color, or overlook how it may be uncomfortable to engage with a game that has a murky stance on racism and slavery. Is our target audience only people who have no experience with racism or slavery, either personally or generationally, or no hard feelings about it either way?

I think it's a bit callous at best and short sighted at worst to suggest people who are uncomfortable with these themes perhaps due to their generational trauma or personal experiences should play another game, when it is pretty straightforward to deemphasize those themes (they exist, but are in the background setting of the game) or to more clearly present them as dilemmas to overcome (which was the argument for including them in Dark Sun originally).

In Dark Sun, you had the Veiled Alliance as the grey "protagonist group" that PCs often worked with or joined. They were anti-slavery, anti-sorcerer king, anti-city state. They represented the moral thrust of the game and its setting; assisting the sorcerer kings in their oppression was the closest one could find in the setting for "evil" alignments, though alignments were purposefully absent, while assisting the Veiled Alliance was probably the closest you could come to being part of the "good guys".

In our game, there is no such group as the VA. Instead, we have the oppressors and their oppression as the norm with little recourse or even consideration for opposing points of view; while it is possible to play someone who is anti establishment or anti slavery, it would be a major exception to the documentation and seen as aberrant by most. Which then positions most people to be either pro slavery, or at the very minimum, neutral.

[Halaster]

At best you are misinterpreting the original problem, at worst the changes to documentation are probably also meant for you. 

The problem as I understand it from this thread is that you, and others, have an issue with the word "racism" in our documentation, yes?  That's my take away from the pages of people discussing the semantics of word use.

I said it's an easy change to fix that.  We're not removing the -concept- of it from the game:  characters can and will be prejudiced against based on their race.

Not sure what else you might want?

[Dresan]

Not sure what else you might want?

We are aligned with the documentation changes.

It was not part of my argument to remove the -concept- of prejudice between species/race from the game.

I am moving on.

[Cowboy]

So...if you are triggered by something or anything in an online, fantasy game, why exactly do you play that game?  If a game is having a negative impact on your real life, you need to stop playing.  This game could never remove, ban or change every facet of Armageddon that might trigger something in someone.  Individual responses need to be made by the individual.  Over the years many things have been removed, changed or banned and I have felt that most all of it was for the good.  I keep playing because the game brings me entertainment not grief.  If this game brings more bad things to your life, then good, please stop playing for your own mental health.  If there are a few things that piss you off? Welcome to Armageddon.
It is the future as long as you play here and thanks for hanging around.

[Agent_137]

The important question is - does it keep people from wanting to try out the game?

I am the ghost of Armageddon past not the future. I'm old enough to have seen the world change. Maybe race is not a good word for this day and age.

Words matter - ask someone who is in advertising. Look around your room at all the useless shit you've been talked into buying over the years or the harmful garbage you eat.

Word meanings change - try watching a 1930's/40's movie. Most of the sexual innuendo/insults will pass right over you, gunsel. Especially highly charged words. Maybe race has become one of those words?

well put

But, I'll make a case why xenophobia is illogical and not well thought out for Arm the fantasy world.

Going to go point by point

An elf is loyal to their tribe - why would an elf care more for another elf over a human? You are either a tribe member (most favored status) or not (indifferent, hostile, beneficial). If anything an elf would understand another elf is looking out for THEIR tribe's best interest. In that sense, a human might be a better friend/business partner. Ahem, like those 2 in Red Storm.

You can disagree with it all you want, I can see your point.  But there is in the docs the concept of elven nation pride and concern.  Elan pah for desert elves and now elven market for city elves.  Elves realize humans and gith and every hostile force will take everything elves have if they don't unite when needed because everyone else is united.  Source - me, former tribal staff, the elven market docs, and the elven nation post in every delf tribe gdb.

A dwarf is loyal to their focus - over anyone or anything..unless that focus IS someone or something. So why would a dwarf care more for another dwarf? You are: beneficial to the dwarf's focus, hindering it, or neutral. Brings up the question, would a dwarf kill his family for/over his focus? Is a "dwarf hating" focused dwarf a badly played dwarf (focus: last dwarf standing)?

I mean this is true I don't know why you think it's a counterpoint to xenophobia.  Dwarves don't experience xenophobia.  Humans and elves  else certainly do around dwarves because "focus" isn't a concept people know. Dwarves are just weird. Muls understand the dwarves drive (in the docs) and half giants either don't notice or notice and mimic. Not every race or pc is xenophobic. It's mostly humans to others. Honestly speciesism is a good term for what elves experience around others with their superiority complex.

You can sneer at the half-elf stablehand all you want but it's not fair that he can't slip a rock underneath your beetle's shell so it reverts back to the wild on you when you get far enough from the city.

What do you mean? Are you not blaming the half elf stable hand when your mount bucks you off in a fight? Perfect opportunity to blame the other. 

What about a human raider who rides up on an elf grebber: "An elf killed my pa. You die."
Does that even make sense given that elves are known by their tribe NOT by their biological makeup? That's more like RL racism and is probably the scenario that is most disagreeable.

That'd be pretty dumb to anyone who understands elf culture sure, but the average human commoner living in the city likely wouldn't due in part to xenophobia: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign.

Good examples but I wanted to go point by point because we're clearly not on the same page with what's being talked about.  Not every PC nor race fears and hates. But most humans do, especially the generationally poor and uneducated along with those born too rich to care. That's what this conversation is about imo.  And the question is what do we call that? We haven't called it racism until season 1!

Edit: Xenophobia might also be new to the what you know page, but imo it's apt. We should keep this line, it's perfect:

Zalanthans tend to be very xenophobic, both with respect to other species, and with respect to those outside their city and/or tribe. Humans, for instance, distrust elves, and elves, in return, view humans as inferior. However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas.

Most importantly, have a look, racism is not here https://web.archive.org/web/20180831025906/https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves

Literally just got added. That's what should be fixed. 

[Halaster]

These two helpfiles have been changed to say 'prejudice' instead of 'racisim' or 'racist':

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Elven%20Market

I have left this one alone, because it says "However, racism, in the modern sense, is non-existent in Zalanthas."
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/What%20You%20Know

[zealus]

Hey there!

Locked this, as the issue has been addressed.

Thanks for keeping it civil folks!