There is no 'racism' in ArmageddonMUD

[Dresan]

I want to preface this by saying that while I don't agree every direction the game has taken this season, I believe everything has been done with the best intentions and I am having a lot of fun playing the game. The below is something I had lingering in my mind since I last played a few years ago.

The word racism is a very highly-charged topic in real life today and I think its use in the game is both inaccurate and has had historically negatively impacts roleplaying decisions from members of this community. There is actually no racism in Armageddon mud.  I think the game would benefit from shifting its from using 'race' and 'racism' to species and speciesism.

Elves, dwarves, Thryzn are not human, they are different species all together. I myself highly enjoy RPing the different species and how they interact, compete and struggle with others sentient species of the world. I believe that by clarify this in the documentation and modifying our verbiage in the documentation slightly, it will help people feel comfortable roleplaying some of the complex relationship and social structures regardless of any shifts in game direction.

Unfortunately, racism is something that has impacted many of us very negatively in real life and it would only benefit the game and the roleplaying to make a few small changes to ensure there less similarities in game to any real life struggles. 

Speciesism: the practice of treating members of one's own species as morally
more important than members of other species, including non-human animals and
potentially extraterrestrial life forms.

Racism: A belief that race is a fundamental determinant of HUMAN traits and capacities, and
that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race, accompanied
by behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief (Source, Merriam-Webster).

[Agent_137]

I think this is a good thing to consider. However there is a strong counter point here https://www.dndbeyond.com/races

In D&D parlance, what you call species are called races. And in all the D&D settings I know, there is no racism among differently colored humans, but there is frequently racism among the different D&D races.

Changing references to speciesism would be very confusing for everyone who comes to Arm from a D&D background. That said, it is probably good to clarify the distinction somewhere so that people without a D&D background can read it and understand.

[Lizzie]

Totally agree. I've been arguing this point for years, even in other games that use the term "race" to define various subspecies.  In Armageddon, your human character shouldn't dislike an elf just because the elf is black or white. You should dislike them because they're an elf.  Now, if that elf was periwinkle blue, or fuchsia, then sure - but that'd be due to them being a mutant, since periwinkle and fuchsia don't fall within the "normal range" of skin colors in this game.

In real life, it'd be considered an abomination for a human to have a romantic interest in a chimpanzee. Both are humanoids, but each is a completely different subspecies.

[Dresan]

....

Look I know. You aren't wrong and I expected people to say race and species are used interchangeably in a number of literatures and games.

However, D&D is old, and set some standard which does not help some of its IPs in today environment. It also tends to focus these days on worlds that lack the themes we find and enjoy within this game. 

Unfortunately, the world has changed, and it would really only benefit the community to avoid many of issues associated with some terms. People aren't stupid,  and this can be easily made clear early in the documentation without any impact to new users.

[Gaare]

Very nice point to consider indeed. From RL biological perspective most scientists consider human racism as simply a social-constract, i.e. there isn't enough difference between human beings to divide them into different races in biological sense.

Just to keep, fantasy world in which characters can fly with saying a word, out of political world I'd like to see it to be called species. On the other hand, D&D runs the RP genre show and they surf with the waves.

[Agent_137]

In real life, it'd be considered an abomination for a human to have a romantic interest in a chimpanzee. Both are humanoids, but each is a completely different subspecies.

Unless you're playing in one of the many D&D settings where that's untrue and many species can cross without any derision, particularly elves and humans.

This is a dark sun thing, but even dark sun refers to the subspecies as races.

We're the only ones calling them subspecies. It makes sense to us, steeped in Arm, where they're treated like subspecies. But it's not the terminology most people are going to be using given the source material. Even Tolkien refers to elves, dwarves, humans, etc as different races.

But yeah, to Dresan's point, it's worth making clear that it's different here, and why.


P.S.

Fun Arm fact of the day - this rapey part of the half-elf help file did not come from Dark Sun:

the vast majority of half-elves are not the product of loving relationships.

This is what Dark Sun's Rulebook says:

Elves and humans travel many of the same roads
on Athas—elven tribes have at times encountered
human mercenaries, just as elven warriors have
found gainful employment in the armies of the city
states. The merchant class, too, is overrun with
traders of both races, so it is not at all unusual for
children of mixed parentage to be born into the
world—the half-elves.

Elves are especially intolerant, at times driving
mothers of half-elven infants from their camps into
the desert. Humans are more apt to accept halfelves
as allies or partners, but seldom accept them
into their homes, clans, or families.

[dumbstruck]

Totally agree. I've been arguing this point for years, even in other games that use the term "race" to define various subspecies.  In Armageddon, your human character shouldn't dislike an elf just because the elf is black or white. You should dislike them because they're an elf.  Now, if that elf was periwinkle blue, or fuchsia, then sure - but that'd be due to them being a mutant, since periwinkle and fuchsia don't fall within the "normal range" of skin colors in this game.

In real life, it'd be considered an abomination for a human to have a romantic interest in a chimpanzee. Both are humanoids, but each is a completely different subspecies.

Important distinction here. You're only a different species if you create offspring who are not reproductively viable. So elves and humans are the same species. Humans and dwarves are a different species. In fact by that token the only racism that exists in arms is between humans and elves. Everything else is speciesism.

[Inky]

I am 100% fine with never giving this any thought.

[Dusty Boots]

-snup-

Honestly the more I personally read about dark sun on the side, the less I understood why Armageddon cranked it's dark themes in particular up to 11. It's a shame because thri-kreen are potentially friendly and sometimes even ally with other races for big threats. Sad that I'll never play a mantis man.

[Dresan]

You're only a different species if you create offspring who are not reproductively viable.

I am not sure you are correct. But also I feel the technicalities are missing an important point.

the consensus among scientists and experts is that wolves (Canis lupus) and dogs (Canis familiaris) are different species. While they share a common ancestor and can interbreed to produce viable offspring, they have distinct genetic, physical, and behavioral differences.

[dumbstruck]

You're only a different species if you create offspring who are not reproductively viable.

I am not sure you are correct. But even if you were, I feel the technicalities are missing an important point.

the consensus among scientists and experts is that wolves (Canis lupus) and dogs (Canis familiaris) are different species. While they share a common ancestor and can interbreed to produce viable offspring, they have distinct genetic, physical, and behavioral differences.

That's actually Canis lupus (wolves) and Canis Familiaris Lupus now specifically because they are the same species and that wolves and dogs are subspecies within it. (Source: https://wolf.org/wolf-info/basic-wolf-info/wolves-and-humans/wolf-dog-hybrids/) I mean, since you want to correct me I would prefer if you were correct.

[Dresan]

....

I think you are missing the point in regard to demerits of using 'racism' or 'racist' terminologies in the game.

Even within your argument human and elves would still be different subspecies. I think this is enough to allow the change in the terminology, especially with what the terms mean within our purely human society. I don't think its necessary to make half-elves infertile in order to make a shift but quite frankly i also dont think doing so would be huge impact to the game either.

[Usiku]

I think this is a good thing to consider. However there is a strong counter point here https://www.dndbeyond.com/races

In D&D parlance, what you call species are called races. And in all the D&D settings I know, there is no racism among differently colored humans, but there is frequently racism among the different D&D races.

Changing references to speciesism would be very confusing for everyone who comes to Arm from a D&D background. That said, it is probably good to clarify the distinction somewhere so that people without a D&D background can read it and understand.

D&D are already changing have already changed from race to species for the same reason.

https://www.polygon.com/23488097/dungeons-dragons-race-species-rule-change-announcement-wotc-unearthed-arcana

[Halaster]

Looks at the code in a billion places where it says things like "if (RACE_ELF)"  .... cries

[Patuk]

I am 100% fine with never giving this any thought.

Ohh yes. Absolutely.

[Krath]

I am 100% fine with never giving this any thought.

[zealus]

I'd say that in arm, we deal with tribalism and othering, not so much racism.
If that elf is also a Bynner? Better than the not-bynner elf. Still bad for not being also a human like you...

That being said, as long as we realize we're being racist on fantasy-definition of race, not modern sociological definiton...

Does changing the word change what we do?

[Halaster]

To those of you who have posted that you will not think about this, and then just quoted each other:  you bring nothing to this discussion (which I realize is your intent).  You're just being low-key trolls by posting that you won't give this any thought (which, by the way, you obviously did because you responded).

With that said, if you have no intention of posting actual opinions and actively contributing to the discussion, refrain from posting.

[FantasyWriter]

    I understand the feelings behind where this comes from.  I also understand that this is a fictional game in a fictional world.  It is also a game that is 18+ with often strong adult themes (brutality, murder, betrayal, sex, torture,etc... Sometimes all in the same scene.) and as such requires a certain level of maturity and detachment in order to maintain our own mental health.

    'Race' in the contact of fantasy races is much more accurate than how English-speakers over the last few centuries have used the word.  Humans are one species with an almost identical genome. Ever human on earth shares about 99.9% of our genetic code with one another. 1) We didn't know that three centuries ago. 2) The word 'race' is a relatively new addition to the English language, starting around 300 years ago, often to force difference between humans that were non-existent because of both ignorance (a lack of the science we have now) and malice (justification for conquest, and social injustices).

    All that to say, I am fine with the term 'race' to describe different races in science fiction and fantasy setting, as it is accurate.  Our historical context of using 'race' and its original definitions is where the error lies.

[Down Under]

Isn't it problematic that the only way we draw on to 'RP Fantastical Racism' is from RL Racism though?

Meaning -- when people are being 'racist' in game, they are using what they know from RL as tropes of racist behavior to exemplify in the game world.

Even though we might be acting within a fantastical context, we are portraying based on what we know and understand racism to be.

Racism / Fantastical Racism is present in Dark Sun, but not nearly as emphasized as it is on ArmageddonMUD.

[FantasyWriter]

Also, in hopes of lightening the discussion to something more productive and less charged:
All the races (except gith) are decedent from halflings anyway (at least according to DarkSun). Gith are...

Aliens.

[Tailong]

Isn't it problematic that the only way we draw on to 'RP Fantastical Racism' is from RL Racism though?

Nope. Never seen an elf, fantasy dwarf, mantis, gith...etc etc etc in real life and can only go on previous interactions and documentation on how I am to view these creatures.

These prejudices only exist in this fantasy world and bear, or shouldn't bear any likeness to real world issues. 

[Lizzie]

Isn't it problematic that the only way we draw on to 'RP Fantastical Racism' is from RL Racism though?

Meaning -- when people are being 'racist' in game, they are using what they know from RL as tropes of racist behavior to exemplify in the game world.

Even though we might be acting within a fantastical context, we are portraying based on what we know and understand racism to be.

Racism / Fantastical Racism is present in Dark Sun, but not nearly as emphasized as it is on ArmageddonMUD.

I don't. I know many players who don't. We use the term AS IF we were referring to species"ism." I draw on my observations of nature. Jakhals and wolves are both canines but you don't see them hanging out together, and if you tossed them in the same enclosed environment, one would likely eventually attempt to rip the other to shreds.  Similarly, red-tailed hawks and budgies are both birds - but budgies are more likely to be a hawk's mid-day snack, than a pal or life-mate.

My characters tend to view half-elves as a less-severe, but equally abominable, result of two subspecies mingling. My human characters tend to view elves as - inferior humanoids, but not necessarily enemy humanoids. My half-giant character viewed anyone who wasn't a half-giant as "stupid," though she wasn't entirely sure what that meant - only that she should have disdain for them. My elven characters thought humans were useful tools, and possible allies, but would never consider bedding one of them because gross - they're not elves.

[Down Under]

Isn't it problematic that the only way we draw on to 'RP Fantastical Racism' is from RL Racism though?

Nope. Never seen an elf, fantasy dwarf, mantis, gith...etc etc etc in real life and can only go on previous interactions and documentation on how I am to view these creatures.

These prejudices only exist in this fantasy world and bear, or shouldn't bear any likeness to real world issues. 

Right, but if i'm playing make believe (RP) about 'How would my PC be racist towards <An Elf / A Half-Elf / A Gith / A Dwarf / A Mul / A Half-Giant', am I drawing from a mythical Athasian/Zalanthan lexicon on how to be Racist like an Athasian/Zalanthan? Or am I going to think 'How are people racist/discriminatory to each other IRL?' and apply those methods to my RP?

I'm not judging people for doing it. Exploring fantastical racism and why major companies like WotC and Pathfinder are making decisions to remove or change language surrounding race and racism from their material is very recent and still a topic being explored and discussed.

I don't /expect/ ArmageddonMUD to make drastic changes in this area, but in reading the room, many other people are in fact discussing these topics and making drastic changes to their IP to accommodate a shifting attitude towards fantastical racism.

[FantasyWriter]

Isn't it problematic that the only way we draw on to 'RP Fantastical Racism' is from RL Racism though?

Meaning -- when people are being 'racist' in game, they are using what they know from RL as tropes of racist behavior to exemplify in the game world.

Even though we might be acting within a fantastical context, we are portraying based on what we know and understand racism to be.

Racism / Fantastical Racism is present in Dark Sun, but not nearly as emphasized as it is on ArmageddonMUD.

Yes. It is 'problematic.' Nearly all conflict in Armageddon is 'problematic.'

There is literally no where else to draw on conflict tropes from than RL themes.  That is and will always be true until creatures from another dimension or aliens decide to invade Earth. 

What is being discussed here is word creep.  There are problematic issues around a word.  You change the word without actually changing the root cause issue, so the new word becomes problematic, so you change the word again... rinse and repeat.  The only way to actually solve the root cause here would be to make an OOC rule against racism/speciesism.  I am not sure that is something this game needs.  It's not a cuddle-puddle universe.