Howdy guys - so how are we feeling about week one? To me - the pulse is bounding, but I wanted to kind of open up a discussion on what's good, what's bad, where to focus attentions. Please, pro-active discussion, not griping. If there are pain points or suboptimal things, offer suggestion. Season's is to not fall back into old ruts that caused bitterness, it's to work on making the game great. I've been having lots of fun, and here's the link to the cheers thread for staff/player energy so far! https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60541.0.html

Big Wins: 

• Player Energy and Staff Responsiveness - The rush of excited playerbase, discord activity, fantastic concepts and writing is great.
• The amount of building and 'new' stuff. There are a -ton- of updates. Allanak feels vibrant with the NPCs, I'm enjoying trying to discuss and find backstories, etc. All the coded QOL changes.
• Population in Allanak - really cool seeing a massed group of players riding around, the bar hopping, and tons of PCs watching Arena games, etc.
• Metaplot - we're starting to see hints, and I'm hoping that these plot hooks are far ranging and drag people in.
• Improved gemmer/elf/nonhuman interaction. I think the changes allow these characters to interact and not get flat out ignored.

Potential Pitfalls

• I think that there may have been an initial rush to get settled, get the basics down for many PCs. I hope that players will try to get others involved (especially newbies, not leaving them in the dust) and start stuff for others, and take some time to slow down, illustrate the world, write scenes together, gather up others in your long term goals.
• The availability of 'stuff' in game. Currently - there are tons of shops in game which have tier +++ awesome gear, armor, weapons. I know that the goal was to move away from GMH being vending machines, but it does seem strange to me that there is direct availability of almost everything from the get go, with the only barrier to availability being coins. I worry that this means PC crafters are just circumvented - when it would take months, unavailable materials, time and effort to get PC crafters something they'd need to make you a suit of armor, or you could just grind out coins (commonly, not ever a huge roadblock for committed/experienced players) and get the thing. The only thing currently driving scarcity is the availability of coins, and this will not last for long. It really eliminates  the influence entire tiers of characters can have, forcing them to be custom craft grinders, or simple coin generators themselves.
• Newbie experience - from our discord, it seems that some of our newer players (and some returning vets) are having problems finding an aim or goal in game. Some players may not be self starters, so for everyone, we need to think of ways of engaging folks in game (fun gameplay, interactions, plot, etc), cause many people may drift off if there's nothing hooking them beyond the promise of obsidian mining and gearing up.

Quote from: Bogre on June 22, 2024, 01:46:47 PMThe availability of 'stuff' in game. Currently - there are tons of shops in game which have tier +++ awesome gear, armor, weapons. I know that the goal was to move away from GMH being vending machines, but it does seem strange to me that there is direct availability of almost everything from the get go, with the only barrier to availability being coins. I worry that this means PC crafters are just circumvented - when it would take months, unavailable materials, time and effort to get PC crafters something they'd need to make you a suit of armor, or you could just grind out coins (commonly, not ever a huge roadblock for committed/experienced players) and get the thing. The only thing currently driving scarcity is the availability of coins, and this will not last for long. It really eliminates  the influence entire tiers of characters can have, forcing them to be custom craft grinders, or simple coin generators themselves.

This has basically been my experience with a crafter that I stored. PCs were mostly coming to me to sell materials but never to buy stuff off of me, and when I inspected them, they pretty much always had gear from the GMH stalls that had unlimited stock. The increase in unlimited stock also meant that the random selling that npc shops do have a chance to land on an unlimitedly stocked item, making it much slower to naturally empty out. Indie crafters massively suffer from not having access to GMH recipes, I understand that it's 'the point', but I feel like a lot more people would be complaining if a character's offensive or magickal skills were limited based on what clan you were in, there are just less people playing crafters.

The move away from GMHs doing mercantile stuff just kinda gave little room for crafter players to really have a goal or aim, I understand wanting to do something 'different', but I feel like player crafters were just not taking into account when it comes to the season's plans. I also will point out that the newish CCing rules around weapon quality make it even harder to play an indie crafter, because you'll have to wait multiple months to make something that you would be able to craft immediately by being in a GMH.

I could do a huge write up on the issue with crafters in arm and how I would think they should be fixed, but that's a HUGE ask and I understand staff are trying their best. I think the issues with indie crafters were just exacerbated by the changes to the GMHs and their stalls. If you give players an easy way to avoid interaction and bartering with PCs, they will.

I am trying to keep an open mind, and not fall into old survival habits or tactics but it is not something that will change over night. RP is also bit rusty, and i dont mean emoting. With time i am hoping to bring a vibrant fun character to life like i used to in the past.

I regards to crafting, agreed, it was discussed recently here, it would help to consolidate some ideas: Crafting improvements

I am also looking forward to providing feedback on a few things after a couple more months of playing. Some stuff still does not feel like it where it needs to be, but while clearly requiring some fine tuning, its not game breaking at this point and more testing is needed. Overall, it has been great to come back.

Stuff I love:

• The gray area in interactions between mundanes and gemmed, and between elves and non-elves. There's so much room in that gray area, as I put it on Discord and got teased for , between "kill all magickers" and "have sex with magickers.' As a result it seems like there's SO MANY magickers and elves around, but I don't have to complain about it OOCly because I can just interact with them if I'm playing a mundane/human. HUGE WIN.
• The player-run tavern. I do have concerns about how stuffed with PCs it usually is, it's the start location for newbies and it is FULL OF SPAM most of the time. Some of that is because PCs are crafting in there, trading in there, etc.
• Experiencing NPC animations that are apparently JUST for me, and JUST for fun?? Like, wow. That has never happened before in my experience of this game. My PC is not important at all; and in "ye olde days," only important PCs got animations, and then those animations were mostly negative in tone.

Stuff I'm worried about:

• The newbie experience being impacted by spam in the player tavern. (Other players too, but ya vets can sort yerselfs out.)
• The newbie experience being impacted by the crafting materials/sales glut/shortages, and the lack of GMH crafting jobs. Everyone is hunting the same things, everyone needs money, and newbie crafters are going to be most impacted by this because they don't have the game knowledge to compete. And they don't have jobs to get hired on for with the GMHs, so no free food and water and no mentors. I assume that there are many newbies who want to play crafter types--it's a bit less scary than immediately jumping into a combat or sneaky role. I started as a crafter on my first PC and was able to immediately get a job with Kadius, but that route is not open to newbies right now. Any newbie coming in thinking "I'm gonna make silk dresses" is going to be extremely disappointed.
• The vet player experience of crafting appears to be difficult too, same reasons as above, but not as much of a player retention issue.
• Whether or not PCs that are not combat-oriented, or not in a combat clan, or not magickal, or are focused on social plot stuff, will be able to experience the meta plot. Yeah I'm pretty worried about this, because in my previous player experience, even when I was in a combat clan eg AoD, plots often focused in locations that my PC wasn't in or needed skills like magick that my PC didn't have. I want every PC to be able to experience big wow moments and drama in the meta plot, including mine.
• I am not sure that enough clans are open and that enough leaders are present to handle all the current PCs. I love that there's 42 PCs in the Byn but presumably in about 6 weeks a bunch of them will want to clan up elsewhere, and what then? Also I'm just not seeing a lot of leader PCs wandering around and I'm concerned they are overwhelmed/too busy/just not enough of them.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on June 22, 2024, 04:30:45 PM

• The newbie experience being impacted by spam in the player tavern. (Other players too, but ya vets can sort yerselfs out.)

Its somewhat ironic but the game was not fully designed for the numbers we are seeing all gathered in one place. I stress though that this is not terrible problem for the game to have, and one that I believe can be resolved in short amount of time with a few more rooms in high traffic locations like taverns.

That said, in the past clan jobs were originally supposed to be hard jobs to get, with many clans only having one room for their members to spar in, even two people trying to spar in a room gets spammy. Not to mention Indy roles were much better supported, good luck trying to train weapon skills or other tough combat skills outside of a clan without engaging in questionable actions. The story and plot are pushed mostly pushed through clans as well I suspect.

Again a good problem to have, the game a victim of its own success, but it is a problem that will need some adjustment.

I agree that Crafters and Merchants are struggling to find their place. I can't think of a solution. Perhaps it was a calculated move by the staff to shift city roles towards diplomacy rather than mercantile activities.

I believe there shouldn't be any standards for new players. The priority should be to ensure they stay and play. Many long-time players started casually and then became committed once they passed a certain threshold. So, let them have fun in any way they choose.

Overall game is good, let's just keep playing and everything will fall into place.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on June 22, 2024, 04:30:45 PMWhether or not PCs that are not combat-oriented, or not in a combat clan, or not magickal, or are focused on social plot stuff, will be able to experience the meta plot. Yeah I'm pretty worried about this, because in my previous player experience, even when I was in a combat clan eg AoD, plots often focused in locations that my PC wasn't in or needed skills like magick that my PC didn't have. I want every PC to be able to experience big wow moments and drama in the meta plot, including mine.

Excellent point!  I have been a tad worried about this as well for my PC but didn't know how to put it into words and when I read what you said it clicked.

I know it's early days and I HAVE aligned myself with an organization - so I am just trucking along having faith that I'm sure there are plans to at least try and rope most folk in.

Either way, I still want to hear about it/see it!

What I like:
Transparency stuff in the past few years to level the playing field somewhat between the people that keep Excel maps and spreadsheets and those who don't. (Such as the analyze change, adding skill branches to the help files, symbol command).
Reinstating full guild mages and shifting subguild mages to special apps.
Changing reports to bios. This changes the game for certain characters, and the ST experience for staff both. In a positive way.
Player Clan stuff looks more dynamic and I'm for it.
I like the space the absence of Kadius has opened up and it has given me some ideas.

Stuff I Don't Like:
Magick Changes: The changes across the board (in experience so far) with full guild mages to make them start with a number of spells comparable to a subguild elementalist. You're giving up your whole guild. 6 was a good number. And I don't like that it seems like the new one ya'll added for subguild elementalists is one of the starting ones. All of those guys had them where they could make a magick thing (different by guild what, leaving it vague for IC) of their own and make it permanent. I believe that that new spell tacked on across the board in guilds should branch from that one for each. I don't like the 2 utility spells in most cases that are pretty signature for these guilds to be taken and made to be something branched. I'm being vague here, again, because of the mystery of magick thing but if there's questions I can put in a request. I doubly like how this has effected 1 of all the guilds to make a pretty key area inaccessible until something is branched where none of the other guilds and temples do this. It makes me feel like a twink for wanting to access the place when it's something that's happening IC.
Violins: Honestly there's been a near Kings Age jump. We couldn't have gotten them back during the jump?
Sponsored Roles: This is not criticism of anyone playing a sponsored role right now. I don't have experience with any of them. This is a reference back to before things shut down and a comment I made, plus some changes to karma. I think it would be rad if those listed karma levels allowed you to just app in for GMH, Noble, and Templar roles as the karma next to them. For people who want intrahouse stuff, for people who honestly want to play the effete, ineffectual cousin, etc etc etc. By all means keep the sponsored ones as the ones disseminating plot but that should help concern by others about leaders and minions shortly.

Suggestions:
Make real mages (full guild mages) mage again. (I am not objecting to stuff that I've been told were deleted altogether. I think in many instances that was a good choice perhaps all.).
Role App Nobles and GMHs, perhaps Templars too, idk. This will intrigue plot dissemination, political RP and back and forth, and number of hiring roles. Let people app into these like you used to be able to with desert elf tribes. You used to have to manually set up all the tribals anyhow. It'll up the level of visible leader PCs and diffuse plots more.

Thank You:
Thank you for your quick responses to requests.
Thank you for making good outline of general special app parameters.
Thank you for the time you put in on the changes. They're vast and subtle. Chef's Kiss.

• There's so many players everywhere, even on rides in the desert. I was worried about initial numbers, but am happy that I've been proven wrong.
• The where command is a GREAT addition. It helps a lot with finding other players when numbers are low (they aren't low right now, but early mornings are a thing, and I expect them to shrink a bit over the next weeks.)
• Love the Allanak changes and how some NPCs are just aged versions of their previous selves.
• Hopefully no more waiting on that merchant PC who logs in every Friday the 13th at 4am my time, and probably died last week.
• I'm not seeing that many leaders. At least in my clan they're online, but usually busy with something that doesn't involve their minions (meeting each other? meeting NPC superiors? Pursuing their collection of elf ears? I have no idea). This is expected in the first week, but I do hope it doesn't stay that way.
• Edit: The Shady Oasis is uncomfortably crowded, and I'm not a new player. If the numbers stay like this, it might need a second room

Good feedback, and thanks for everyone keeping it positive, even in the "things that need improvement" categories!  I'll address.. some.. of this.


Available stuff / crafting

Filling up the shopkeepers with more stuff was to make up for GMH players not being vending machines as much as they used to be.  The idea is "If you want it, you have to find it in game, or CC it".  Gone is the requirement for GMH players to consistently put in special orders because players knew what kind of stuff was available but not for common sale.  If the GMH players -want- to do that on a limited basis, they can, but it's not their focus.  In that regard, I think it's working well.

I'll have to admit, there wasn't as much planning put into how it would affect indy crafters and their ability to make a living.  That's not to say we completely ignored it, but rather we underestimated the impact.  We'll have to put our heads together and work on that.


Player Tavern Needs More Space

Agreed!  The owners have near-absolute autonomy on how they expand and upgrade the tavern.  If it's an OOC problem we can work with them of course, but for the most part we're just reacting to their asks.


Not Enough Clans Open

We're seeing that, though we're intentionally slow to open more.  It's easier and generally more accepted to open a clan than close it.  What we want to avoid is opening something, then it dying on the vine.  In other words, if the player counts remain high, we'll open stuff most certainly.  It's definitely a common topic among staff:  when to open X clan.


Weaksauce full guild mages

They take time to bloom.  Give 'em time, see how they look when they've been around a while and really gotten their groove going and a lot more of their higher tier spells available and when [redacted][redacted].  Full guild mages just aren't comparable to subguild aspect mages.  Full guild mages eventually get every spell every aspect mage of their element gets.  They're also, by design, intended to start weak.

And yes, we did tweak their spell tree's a little bit to rearrange a few things here and there.  So folks with the old spelltree written down may find that not really accurate anymore.  Maybe that means they're not to everyone's taste, especially people who have only known the game with the aspect subguilds.  But I think the people who stick with them and see them to their full potential, and who really dive into the discovery RP, will have a very rewarding time.


Overall, our numbers have been higher than we expected, which is great!  It also means we've got a few growing pains to sort through, but we're working on them.

I'm one playing one of the roles on the 'other side' of the 'mercantile problem' and I feel like the majority of my time is getting spent trying to solve it. Which is fine—it's good merchant gameplay!—but I am frustrated by the thought that I'm not really making a dent in the problem. Like I'll spend hours in-game trying to recruit crafters and then when I tab out to check the Discord, it's all complaints that no one is recruiting crafters. Also, my staff probably want me to actually pursue all these crazy plots they cooked up.

Hoping that some of these issues will just be resolved by the GMH and other crafter-employing clans just growing a bit over the next two weeks and building more capacity for members with non-combat focuses.

So to dig into the crafting/crafter issue specifically. There seems to be two different angles at play:

1. The loss of hiring opportunity/RP opportunity because the GMHs aren't hiring crafters right now

This is the prerogative of the leaders in play. They have specific mandates and areas of responsibility that are not primarily mercantile. However, they are allowed to dip into merchanting if they wish and can hire crafters if it benefits their goals, especially if those crafters are prepared to go along for the ride. However, it's very possible that hiring crafters simply doesn't fit into their plans right now and isn't a viable option for them. That doesn't mean it will always be the case. I predict that crafting will play an incredibly important role in the not-too-distant future for GMHs.

So, what to do if they aren't hiring? In Season Zero, we frequently had many independent crafters, from those who worked alone very successfully to those who started PClans and hired others. There are opportunities out there for those with a bit of ambition, which can also benefit the people they hire. There are already things stirring in the game with a focus on this. Additionally, Season Zero had a very strict 'no compete' rule for existing GMH and MMH markets, which is no longer the case. If you want to start a tailoring PClan, Kadius is not going to come knocking. You are insignificant to them. If and when your PClan grows big enough to start looking like a genuine threat, then they might—and it will be a plot, not a stop order.

2. Indie crafting is not financially viable because there is too much GMH stock available

I'll be honest, perhaps I missed something here. In the times I have played crafters, I found there was almost zero PC-to-PC economy outside of GMHs beyond some very niche and specific high-demand products and custom crafting. This was especially true for the majority of non-clanned craft recipes. However, there are still a lot of very cool, interesting indie-only products available for indie crafters to make and sell that GMH NPCs will not be stocking. Pure financial viability for crafters (and therefore the hunters and grebbers that supply them) should still be possible with NPC-to-PC economy. There are now more NPCs out in the world that buy, with plans to add more. There are also a couple of other ways to make money for the desperate and the enterprising.

With that in mind,

There are some thoughts and options above, but we also have other options. We've always discussed the possibility of opening mercantile branches if and when there were the numbers and demand. Likewise, there are other things we could do, such as increasing custom craft caps for specific items, creating more IC opportunities, or even spinning up an MMH or another interesting faction.

I would be interested in hearing specifically from players who are currently playing crafters and finding it difficult —what those difficulties are and what would make things easier and more fun for you. Please feel free to send in a request titled "Crafting Conundrums," and I will give it some serious thought about what we can do in the short term.

Now... as far as how it's going. It's great to be back in-game. My emoting and roleplay skills are a tad rusty, but getting back into the swing of things. I don't play in Allanak, so this is from the perspective of an indy character:

---

Big Wins:

• Staff Interaction: I played this game for years as a sponsored role (albeit a minor one), and as some leadership roles back in the day and I've never had the kinds of interactions that I've had with staff that I've had in the last week. I can tell that loosening the rules on animations has produced a really positive change, and I love what's happened to me so far. You guys have somehow have time for someone being in literally the middle of nowhere on a nobody character to make the world just a tiny bit more dynamic, and that's amazing.
• New stuff: As others have mentioned, it's great to see new things in 'Nak, but there's new stuff all over, not just in Allanak. Also you fixed a bunch of stuff in that one place, and its' majorly appreciated.
• QoL Improvements: Opening up the Advanced Starts to indies, the skill changes, the learn command, etc. Armageddon is a pastime that takes a lot of time, and that's time I no longer have so much of - I feel like the game is starting to respect my time a lot more than in the past, and I really appreciate these, especially.
• The One Role: This one is very personal, I guess, but I play a character that hasn't always been easy to approve in the past (it was in some administrations, and less so in others), and frankly, staff jumped at the chance to expand the world a little bit to make room for a little more of the background characters that are sure to exist, but don't get represented very often. So for that, thank you!
• The Changes to Elves: I think this opened up so many roleplay opportunities. I think forcing a race to have to be reacted to in any sort of a way is a relic of 1980's and 1990's games, and moving away from that is a very, very positive step.

Minor Concerns:

• Focus on Allanak: It's good to have everyone concentrated, but as others have mentioned, Allanak and the surrounding areas aren't really built to have so many PCs in them. Opening up a smidge of capabilities in other places (RS, Luir's) might alleviate that somewhat, while still making it pretty easy to participate in Allanaki plots.
• Indy Support Outside of 'Nak: This is a really minor concern, because it's just the way the game used to be. There's not even a banker, for instance, in Luir's.

All in all, one week after release, I love the direction of the game. I love what's happened with Seasons. My gripes are minor compared to what is, in my opinion, the huge wins that this staff team has delivered.

Quote from: Usiku on June 23, 2024, 04:06:22 AM2. Indie crafting is not financially viable because there is too much GMH stock available

I'll be honest, perhaps I missed something here. In the times I have played crafters, I found there was almost zero PC-to-PC economy outside of GMHs beyond some very niche and specific high-demand products and custom crafting. This was especially true for the majority of non-clanned craft recipes. However, there are still a lot of very cool, interesting indie-only products available for indie crafters to make and sell that GMH NPCs will not be stocking. Pure financial viability for crafters (and therefore the hunters and grebbers that supply them) should still be possible with NPC-to-PC economy. There are now more NPCs out in the world that buy, with plans to add more. There are also a couple of other ways to make money for the desperate and the enterprising.

I'm a little bit confused about this point. PC-to-PC crafting has always been bad, this is correct, and the changes made it even worse. NPC-to-PC crafting is still possible, but it's just kinda a case of 'why?'. Like, why is it ok that it's borderline encouraged to completely ignore PC crafters and just buy from a stall? This sort of weird redundancy is probably a good driving force as to why so few people actually play crafters. After all, why would anyone want to play a character who's role is easily replaced by a static npc who doesn't have to worry about crafting fail chances and materials? Redundancy kills the desire to play a role.

There are little nick-nacks and interesting stuff you can make with crafting, this is completely true, but most people just are not interested in buying these sorts of things. Not only that, but there's a good chance most people don't even know they exist and just wont ask for them in the cases that they did know about it. The majority of characters in game are combat characters. Weapons and armor are expensive, they are going to want to buy weapons and armor, especially with characters in roles like the Byn or AoD who cannot go out to regularly make money to afford these things in the first place, let alone little neat oddities and clothing that crafters can make.

We all know it, Armageddon is the bone-swords MUD. Hoarding personal items in your apartment or buying furniture (which isn't really craftable in the south in the firstplace) is dissuaded by the fact that anyone can just lockpick into your apartment while you're offline and empty it out. On the other end, a very-good quality sword/axe/spear/club is always going to be sitting at your hip and will help you stay alive to sword another scrab. Even though Armageddon does have cool slice of life items and such, it's heavily disincentivized by the permadeath part of the game and the price of 'flavor' items. Decking out an apartment and having your own living space is actually really fun, but you'll probably die and something like a single bed will cost more than a set of armor that'll keep you alive.

I played a lot of crafters, both indie and GMH crafters last year. I played Tuluki crafters, I played tribal crafters, I played allanaki crafters. Crafting in armageddon, especially compared to other MUDs, are a pretty big pain point. The single CC a month that crafters get pales in comparison to every other MUD I've played where you get to personalize every piece of item that you make. I've also spoken to other people who have played crafters in the past oocly and I've basically gotten the same feedback as my own experiences.

One big question me and a lot of others have had is, 'Why don't you just remove infinite items from shops and make it so the in game economy is player-driven?'. This would actually give player crafters a reason to exist outside of being money machines to throw at people and players would actually _ask_ things from other crafters.

My second suggestion is also a bigger one that would actually require a bit of an overhaul, but this is to fix a bit of an issue I have realized in my time playing: Make it so you can choose a single crafting skill that you're master in to 'specialize' in, giving you access to the highest quality crafts for that one craft only if you're playing a fullguild T5 crafter. Why? Because right now, if you're playing a crafter, you do not want to be friends with other crafters. Every crafter is direct competition because you can all craft the same things, making it so people can specialize means that they have their own niches and can actually work together. Be that master swordsmith or armorer you always wanted to be, create the finest dresses and cloaks, but if every other crafter can do the same thing, what's the point? Also this helps the issue with subguild crafters being able to basically completely replace fullguild crafters, and trust me, I love my scout/armorcrafter, but playing a wilderness/crafter combo is so much more enjoyable right now than playing a fullguild crafter.


Sorry for the wall of text, but this is something I've had opinions on for a long time now. Crafting in arm is just lackluster despite having a lot of potential. Let your players be creative, even if you have to lock it behind 1-2 karma. Other muds like harshlands and sindome let their crafters customize every item that they make, this give Pc-to-Pc sales a massive draw because you can have your own personalized stuff. I'm tried of having my crafters always make other people's custom crafts, it doesn't even make any sense, how does my character know how to make a dress that amos designed 200 years ago with 5 different random ingredients?

Quote from: Halaster on June 22, 2024, 11:56:42 PMAnd yes, we did tweak their spell tree's a little bit to rearrange a few things here and there.  So folks with the old spelltree written down may find that not really accurate anymore.  Maybe that means they're not to everyone's taste, especially people who have only known the game with the aspect subguilds.  But I think the people who stick with them and see them to their full potential, and who really dive into the discovery RP, will have a very rewarding time.

I think the fact that you've added the "branching dots" to magick spells, offsets the changes made to the spell tree as far as potential for discovery goes. I really believe people underestimate how terrific and helpful that is, just knowing that "yes, if you work on this spell, some OTHER spell WILL indeed branch from it. You might not know which spell will show up, but at least you know something will."

I feel like role calls for mercantile GMH family members would certainly help. If you have blooded Dealers and Merchants, they could oversee GMH sales and act as supporting characters to the already present Agents. It also allows for a bit of overlap in playtimes as leaders go and you'd have a backup should an Agent store or die for whatever reason. This would at least make things a bit more fluid and provide junior leadership roles and jobs for crafters (newbies, especially).

The stalls could sell essentials but lack specialty items and then you're back to the indie hunter reliant economy of old. With the new freedom afforded to leaders in general (less OOC red tape), I feel like it'd be a good thing. As someone who truly enjoys crafting, playing a Kuraci dealer was one of my favorite roles ever despite the occasional frustration. Maybe I'm in the minority on that!

(Submitting this in a request but also here, for feedback. Maybe it's a huge mistake and there's a million reasons why!)

Quote from: adri on June 23, 2024, 10:33:08 AMI feel like role calls for mercantile GMH family members would certainly help. If you have blooded Dealers and Merchants, they could oversee GMH sales and act as supporting characters to the already present Agents. It also allows for a bit of overlap in playtimes as leaders go and you'd have a backup should an Agent store or die for whatever reason. This would at least make things a bit more fluid and provide junior leadership roles and jobs for crafters (newbies, especially).

The stalls could sell essentials but lack specialty items and then you're back to the indie hunter reliant economy of old. With the new freedom afforded to leaders in general (less OOC red tape), I feel like it'd be a good thing. As someone who truly enjoys crafting, playing a Kuraci dealer was one of my favorite roles ever despite the occasional frustration. Maybe I'm in the minority on that!

(Submitting this in a request but also here, for feedback. Maybe it's a huge mistake and there's a million reasons why!)

We have the numbers to support this. Agents deal in politics and big picture things, and Merchants deal in merchant 'stuff' all the while having the support of an active Agent. Both can see to emporium stock, and special orders, hire hunters, grebbers, and then you have an economy driven by supply and demand. Seems easy.

Yeah dots for branching for mages is amazing.

I think Kavrick is saying that indie crafting was bad before season 1 and now it's even worse. But simply rolling back shop inventory won't fix it because it's a large complex issue. 


Very happy to see population and good RP abounding.  That's success.

The old spell branch sequences made logical sense - you could sort of see how a branched spell was related to the previous one, so you had a hint as to what's coming and could train accordingly.

Now, we've got the equivalent of a combat class starting off with blind fighting instead of parry, and blind fighting branches basketmaking, which branches parry. Compounding this is the branch sequence isn't just posted in the helpfiles for easy reference, so you sort of have to guess where to place your focus because the rearrangements don't reflect any sort of logical progression.

I get the obfuscation, really I do. Discovery is great fun for players new to the magick system, but for experienced mage players, the changes resulted in quite a bit of wasted effort.

I don't know what the intent behind this change was, but the target, the wall behind the target, and the building containing the wall upon which the target was placed has been missed.

Quote from: manonfire on June 23, 2024, 10:55:11 AMNow, we've got the equivalent of a combat class starting off with blind fighting instead of parry, and blind fighting branches basketmaking, which branches parry.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  There was thought put into which spells branch to which, it just may be a different way of thinking about them than you're expecting.  In the one element you've played there's really only one instance, in my mind, where one thing branching from another is a little head-scratching, but that's because the spell branched to has no real predecessor that makes sense.

Also, magick isn't necessarily required to be logical or be predictable.  Granted, it has to be on some level because we're a code-based game, of course.  But magick isn't intended to always 'make sense'.

Edit:  I should add too, that in some cases the 'power level' of the spell was taken into account.  A more powerful spell that was a starter spell may have been moved to tier 2 or 3, based on it's strength.

Quote from: manonfire on June 23, 2024, 10:55:11 AMI get the obfuscation, really I do. Discovery is great fun for players new to the magick system, but for experienced mage players, the changes resulted in quite a bit of wasted effort.

I have to disagree with you in this opinion of yours. As a over 20 year player, I find joy in discovering new things. Especially new spell trees of full elementalist guilds sound so tempting and probably I will try one as my next PC, and I might try others afterwards.

Quote

QuoteNow, we've got the equivalent of a combat class starting off with blind fighting instead of parry, and blind fighting branches basketmaking, which branches parry.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  There was thought put into which spells branch to which, it just may be different a different way of thinking about them than you're expecting. 

Okay, I'll bite. What esoteric ethos are you employing to justify the sequence that I'm referring to? If there's some wildly unique and creative thought process at work here, I'd love to know more about it.

If this is simply a dressed up version of 'we think mages progressed too quickly in the past and felt compelled to push some of their more powerful abilities deeper into the spell tree', just say that. There's no need to tack on extraneous language like 'making RP discovery more fun'. The ornaments are pretty but they're pulling down the branches of the tree.

QuoteIn the one element you've played there's really only one instance, in my mind, where one thing branching from another is a little head-scratching, but that's because the spell branched to has no real predecessor that makes sense.

There are other conversations going on in Discord about the sequencing of other elementalists. Don't get reductive because I've only played a single class.

QuoteAlso, magick isn't necessarily required to be logical or be predictable.  Granted, it has to be on some level because we're a code-based game, of course.  But magick isn't intended to always 'make sense'.

Magick being illogical and unpredictable is fantastic from an IC perspective (and I like it that way), but that isn't even remotely close to a justification for making the coded progression system that way.

Quote

QuoteI get the obfuscation, really I do. Discovery is great fun for players new to the magick system, but for experienced mage players, the changes resulted in quite a bit of wasted effort.

I have to disagree with you in this opinion of yours. As a over 20 year player, I find joy in discovering new things. Especially new spell trees of full elementalist guilds sound so tempting and probably I will try one as my next PC, and I might try others afterwards.

As a fellow 20+ year player, I also find joy in discovering new things. It's odd that you seem to be suggesting that I don't, especially since I was very clear with what, exactly, I don't like about what's been changed with the elementalists.

Get back to me once you've bumped up against it.

This is all pretty moot, ultimately. They'll change things if they feel compelled to. I just wanted to share my first few 'what the fuck' moments as a datapoint.

 

Why cant people have their own opinions and voice them, without others trying to marginalize them. Opinions are a form of people's truth. If you do not agree, move on from theirs.