State of ArmageddonMUD Crafting: Opportunities for improvement

[Dresan]

I want to preface this with the fact that I am looking forward to season 1 and the current state of the game works. The purpose of this is to mostly write down some points to add feedback to future continuous improvement opportunities to the game.

I think crafting and all its associated skills in this game can be basically broken in two simple commands:
1. Transform raw material into X amount of coins
2. Work with staff to create items as good or just slightly better than what people can already buy.

This is a permadeath game and the variety of choice when creating character adds tremendous value to playability. With a few exception, picking crafting classes or skills can be reduced to just the two scenarios above, though some crafting skills could give opportunity to join certain clans in the past, its not quite the case anymore.

The lack of value is compounded with the fact that some of the most important crafting skills, those centered around armor and weapons also tend to be one time expenses with the best gear often bought from GMH (formerly sad PCs now shops at least). Picking these skills should be equal to picking weapon, stealth, poison or even magic sub-guilds for combat classes but instead they are just another way to make coins. I won't get into the value of coins in this game, that is its own thread but safe to say that historically having a lot of coins had limited influence on the world.

Some ideas to remedy this situation:
1. Players should not feel entitled to good weapons, armor or items. Loincloths, sticks and stones should become more of a norm.
2. Weapons and Armor should not last forever. Consider adding two values, condition and durability. Condition would go down quickly, when either getting struck or striking and may effect weapon/armor performance at severe levels. Sparring weapons and fists would not damage armor or get damaged. Durability would go down after every repair, it would have no effect until it reaches zero at which point the armor or weapon would not be able to be repaired anymore.
3. Weapons repair skill should be created. Both armor and weapon repair skills should be simplified to promote use (ex. repair supply kits sold at shops)
4. Due to the utilitarian value of armor and weapons for players, as well as GMH influence over the market, armor and weapons would not sell very well in shops. Making it significantly useless for direct to shop coin generation versus other crafting skills.
5. Weapons and Armor that is sold in the shops should be significantly more expensive depending on their quality.
6. Weapons and Armor given out by clans should be average in quality and performance in most cases, promoting the value of rewards, bribes and other bonuses in clans.

Finally, if these changes go into place, owning high quality armor or weapons should be equivalent to having a second life, they should be reviewed in stats again to ensure this is the case compared to even average quality gear with the balancing point being rarity and expense.  Let us also remember, that adding more value and expense to gear makes it easier to enforce IC consequences on players without resorting to killing.

[Riev]

Would it be better if there were LESS items in NPC shops, and that they were only filled by PC crafters? Or is it better to be the way it is now, where most NPC shops are going to carry basically everything on offer?

Because I do agree, crafting PCs need some love. Not just in "amazing" rapiers, but in making decent armor. Food with actual benefits. Clothing that people may actually want to buy.


I would vie for more 'custom clothing' like custom tattoos, but I don't know how to make that available to PCs.

[Dresan]

I don't think we need to limit shops of quality stuff, but perhaps average and lower quality gear might need to disappear more quickly or just be less available. Overall, it is more important to make buying from crafters or crafting it yourself more feasible whenever possible, whether that be of quality stuff or average gear. This will improve the value of coins across the board as well and make its demand more influential.

Not to mention the fact that, within the scope of the idea, all those amazing armors eventually need to be replaced so you could imagine most people saving up the 'good' gear in lockers for situations that call for it or preferring to settle for average quality gear due to their budgets.

Weapon and Armors should be like water and food to people who may face combat, its just a question of how much is your character's life is worth to you.

[Kavrick]

Anything above average quality should require a PC craft. Also, I'd rather repairing just scale off the related skills like sword making and club making, repair skills are incredibly unenjoyable to raise and they don't even make much sense to be a seperate skill. Otherwise I agree with all of this, crafters always need more love.

[Dresan]

I think the repair skills would work better of they were simplified, basically only requiring you buy or make general repair kits or use whetstone instead of needed different sorts of materials.

But the need for some finite supplies no matter how simple is important as it adds to the need of preparation in longer excursions plus adds to the hidden costs of war and conflict.

Additionally repairing gear at the shop should be made more convienient (eg. Repair all) and time efficient. In exchange, cost of this should go up a bit more, especially for quality gear, allowing those with the skill provide a cost effecitve aproach to repair.

[Trevalyan]

I think you're excessively worried about weapons getting to the same point in Seasons. I could trace at least one very-good quality weapon back to the Masterless, and it lasted for some time IG before finding its way into the hands of someone in Tuluk. Then again, you could have found many good-quality weapons in the lockers and storerooms of the different clans. Hoarding mentality was a major contributor to this issue, and now the slate is clean.

With the reset, all of the high-quality weapons IG will be gone, except for ones in the hands of certain roles. It might be some time before your character even sees an amazing quality weapon. It's very smart for most organizations to keep at least one person around who can produce average or good-quality weapons. It will be pretty easy, even outside the GMHs, and even easier to say no to people insisting on VG quality only. And the GMHs will all be trying to develop high-tier crafters again. That's a lot of pressure to develop successful crafting, you don't need to revamp the weapon system to increase the need for PC crafters. Yet.

[dumbstruck]

I have a strong dislike for things that needlessly complicate or increase the time and material demand on someone who is just trying to pretend they're making a cheap piece of <thing> here. I've seen people needlessly complicate to the point it's made something I really loved for a long time into something I'm indifferent to at best. (Crafting)

I miss when I didn't need to spend 2 RL hours finding pieces of shit or wood because that's common in the south for my character to make something barely more complicated than travel cakes without going to the Gaj cooking pits to sit where everyone and there brother goes. I remember using a torch and a creative ldesc to /roleplay out/ the things that are now locked into things iterated to be much more difficult than they reasonably would be IRL.

Please don't ask them to keep fixing crafting into shittier items that take more work. I want to not go from indifference to active dislike. No one's making you not go to a crafter. That's a choice on the part of the player. I'd love to see it be easier to actually get custom crafts in game myself. God knows I'm a -0- successfully implemented in 15 years of me playing this game. Something that didn't see someone micro critiquing like 'no use the word box' 'no, that's not a big enough loom' Charlie what? What big looms do we actually have that aren't special room tools for Kadius. I just... Please don't ask for things for people crafting to be changed. I can't imagine the direction which will make the role better. And people already complained so much about playing even a GMH merchant as if the role of a trader for one of her three biggest trade organizations in (IC) existence shouldn't - as a measure of common sense - one shouldn't be expected to spend a great deal of time doing that, like it was their actual job.

First to the point that they got special extra craft roles regardless of what their guild choice, now to the point they're looking for Agents but not Merchants for all the GMH roles. I loved the analyze change because it made crafting more egalitarian and fun and allowed people more ability to customize what they were making. But so many changes have been the exact opposite of that (as regards crafting and crafts specifically) - that the odds are that anything you spur people to change is going to make it more, not less, unenjoyable. Cool, another disposable 8242 tool that's going to work 5 times and be worthless. And the guy's gonna buy the items that come from it for now 10% less (to encourage PC PC interaction! don't sell to shops! spend your time hawking stuff that's not written super well in public like people enjoy a never ending Tupperware party). I just... I have a lot of optimism about a lot of things I've seen, but I've also seen a lot of things that didn't. And only a few times in a decade and a half have those been stuff that I've liked, with crafting. Where it has systematically changed to the point it went from one of my favorite things to do in game to... literally something that makes coin. (I admit part of my bitterness is my track record with attempts at making something new)

[Dresan]

I think you're excessively worried about weapons getting to the same point in Seasons.

No, not really.  Rather I dislike the fact that even the crack dagger or ragtag armors you pick up off the floor will last forever, limiting the demands for anything but the absolute best and dimisnishing the need for crafter all together.

Conflict and war should be more expensive and I dont believe players are entitled to good or even decent gear without the right skills or a steady income.

[Riev]

Outside of all the work done in this season, I admit that I WOULD like to see armor tackled SIMILARLY to the way weapons were.

Not that I want to know the gortok-skin vest is +2 better than the "cured" gortok-skin vest ... but there was a lot to the weapons change, for crafters. I spent a LOT of time learning, and trying to explain IC, all the different things that were put forth in the Salarri docs.


Honestly at this stage, I feel the "independent" crafters are code for "subguild tailor to make that sweet sweet coin" because crafters are back to being the old school Merchant class: Give them the stuff you hunted for and they'll give you coin. Customers don't need you to dye their items, they don't want you to custom-craft a "good" sword for them. I'm not saying I WON'T play a crafter this season, if only to get those sweet sweet Mordat-vibes, but they could use some love AT SOME POINT.

[Halaster]

As a concept I'm 100% for item degradation, that is a staple in most survival games.  We're an RPI MUD with survival as one of our themes, so I would like to see it implemented... somehow.  We already have armor getting beat up in combat and needing repair, but as we all know that needs some love.  I wouldn't mind seeing the same for weapons, and some other items.

I think item/gear degradation would be an overall net positive for the game, for a few reasons.  One is that it would give crafters more reason to craft things, because as mentioned, typically once someone gets all their favorite armor and weapons, they don't really need anything else made.  Another is it would be a bit of a money sink, as for most (but not all) players, they know how to make a lot of money in the game.

If we did something more with this, it would be a pretty decent-sized project.  Good ideas for the future!

[Riev]

Just remember, @Halaster ... degradation is fine until it actually affects ME, and I lose a combat scene/character because someone's razor-weapon destroyed my chestplate.

[Halaster]

Just remember, @Halaster ... degradation is fine until it actually affects ME, and I lose a combat scene/character because someone's razor-weapon destroyed my chestplate.

got it.  If account = riev's account { degradation *= 10}

[Feu de Joie]

I understand that this is a game of survival and oppression, and many players would enjoy getting the degradation of clothing and weapons being a feature.

I live a life of survival and oppression. About a third of my food this week came from scavenging the wilds, and every single one of my clothing items has been donated to me and is barely holding together.

For my part, the escapism I wanted from Arm was being able to fight that oppression, and implement many of my dreams or goals in a text world where I couldn't irl, like owning fancy things and having high quality stuff, being able to best the soldier instead of just getting caught, tried and thrown away.


I'm not looking forward to a future where everything degrades for the sake of degradation, but I do see the value in the economical ebb and flow of wear and tear on items, and those pc's able to fight that and repair those items.

However, if we are implementing something in the future that drops the hard deck of something's quality, the floor going from usable rags to rags that are so worn you can't even put them on your shoulders without another pc helping, I would like to raise the ceiling too.

Staff has seemingly raised the roof of a lot of ceilings in Arm, and I feel this is an important area to focus on too, when discussing crafting. I have knives and weapons (irl) that can be made better with fire-hardening, routine sharpening, and an adept hand at repair. I suggest that if we broaden degradation, we should also broaden enhancement too.

The image of mercenaries all sharpening their weapons to keen edges springs to my mind. Could whetstones be used by anyone to sharpen their swords and spear points? I know of times I've added padded and my own straps to protective clothing. Could scraps of cloth be used to enhance basic leather armor, adding some life or wear resistance to it?

Another thing I've always held as an important distinction between Arm and real life is lack of recorded history ig, certain laws never existing, leaving certain scams/ponzi schemes/crimes being something you could reinvent in the game with a unique twist.


To elaborate on that and make this second point of mine clearer, consider sawdust in meatloaf irl. It's technically illegal in the u.s., and while sawdust might be a legitimately valuable commodity in Zalanthas, other nontraditional items could be added to foodstuffs. Krentakh seasoning that makes whatever you just made still taste kind of good, like real good, mmmmm. Adding warspice to pepper sausages for that heat you can really FEEL. Sure, maybe they end up addictive, or maybe adding so much chalk to that bread makes it genuinely bad for your health or poisonous in large doses but relatively undetectable? I haven't brainstormed much on the idea of foodstuffs recently, but I think everyone who has been in the Byn and wished that their solo RP on using a whetstone actually had an effect on their sword, without needing to be lucky enough to have a specific crafter in your unit and online at the same time.

I hope I've illustrated my point. I'm not against improving/changing crafting, but where we lower a floor, I'd like us to also consider raising the roof, .

[Dresan]

For my part, the escapism I wanted from Arm was being able to fight that oppression, and implement many of my dreams or goals in a text world where I couldn't irl, like owning fancy things and having high quality stuff, being able to best the soldier instead of just getting caught, tried and thrown away.

It sounds like you should consider playing a heavy merchantile class or try to be an aide to experience fancier side of the game.

If your character is working as a soldier for the militia standard gear would be provided to your character if they survive recruitment phase, they can always take bribes too to line their pockets. Othewise, merchant houses  would probably provide better gear and salary but its dependant on your character's performance and if they can survive the conflicts.

None of this would change with the idea above. I dont expect people to be in rags rather settle for semi decent gear that is affordable or available. I don't think this is your main point but been waiting for a similar concern to eventually pop up.