Quote from: Cheddar on September 24, 2024, 04:00:31 PMDefinitely seeing a few aides around who seem to be enjoying it. Never played the role myself but I've actually been trying to land a spot this season!

If you are interested highly recommend it.  It's my first time exploring a role like this and honestly it's been a blast!

Definitely seeing a few aides around who seem to be enjoying it. Never played the role myself but I've actually been trying to land a spot this season!

Don't have much to compare it to but just thought I would chip in that my experience with current aide-ly stuff is damn good.

Also really really found the original post helpful.

The aide system has always been to my observation very wishy-washy. Just speaking to my general experience of the role and observations of it in the past, you will always have someone critical of how you're doing things from above(from NPC animation, or other nobles) or below(other players for you acting like you are what you are).

Your social credit doesn't have an observable impact in 90% of things unless some very giving noble/templar wants to stomp out the "codedly useful" person who is acting above their station just to help you out. Most of the time, this is only for their own aide. Even that, that stomping typically doesn't happen(and some would argue is reasonable) because that person's usefulness 'is' their influence combatting the aide's, or so on. This all becomes pointless intrigue. Pointless intrigue dominates things already, and I don't think adding in major inter-house conflict will really change the overall roleplay there personally, but that's just me. It also creates more demand on staff to attend to those other things, which we're quite limited on with the current roster.

When speaking of the benefits(and in some cases, lack thereof) of being an aide though:

I believe part of their point about r/w was more that this is not a generally accepted thing, and it could serve as a great way to give players an obvious and meaningful reward for taking an otherwise difficult role with a high fatality/storage rate, and often a constant feeling of getting punched from above, or knocked down off of your tiny step stool from below. That's ignoring of course that the player base often reacts vastly different to different types of aides and the ones that get the largest social interactions (for reasons that may have nothing to do with them being the voice of a noble/templar) tend to be the ones meme'd on as the 'typical' aide.

As it currently stands, an aide that is found out able to r/w sirihish gets enslaved/executed. That hasn't been changed and while these things likely exist in the virtual and player realm in various amounts over time, they're quite rare in general to my knowledge. In a different thread of this argument, I was on the side of "high ranking" commoners being permitted to, especially if they were kind of "made" people expected to forever remain in some capacity involved with Allanak itself. Perhaps documented as names on a list, not able to retire to being some nobody in Red Storm.

I do however lean on the side of things that aides should generally be the iconic lesser voice of a given person(and personally think there should only be one, Highlander style), and not the voice of a broader system except through interactions with that system through that person(like a commoner wanting to interact with City Ministry by interacting with the aide of a Ministry Templar). I wish there were more distinguished and clearly outlined social expectations and not more "fluidity" to these things for interactions between the workers of nobles/templars and those outside, at least in the broader reinforcement of expectations between aides and other commoners, because this would give those aides more distinguished "benefits" in actual gameplay. I've noticed some stand out play over the years that made this better, but I've also mostly seen the other way around.

I do wish there were more obvious, tangible benefits and a very clear outline of progression for aides, and personally, I'd see them lifted even further up in status than they are. As it currently stands, I've been told directly before that an aide is only as useful as what they do for their noble, and what their noble's successes are, which tends to (given the population of this environment on an OOC level) mean that when you have multiple aides, whoever plays the "nice" and/or "sexy" one tends to become the one of power, due to social interactions. This creates a system where aides often have to fit into a very niche character design to remain competitive with each other, too. Reinforces the "aide" stereotype.

There's also more!

As an aide, you live permanently in the shadow(forgive the pun) of someone. You manipulate too hard, or you try to control too much, even if you're absolutely being clever and tricky, and you'll eventually see push back from it, (even from staff potentially) and I've always kind of felt like this is because people are picked for sponsored roles with a staffer having goals for them, and if you're too good at controlling things, they feel like you undermine their 'actual' pick.

As an aide in the current system, you aren't wealthy generally(the player economy is really bad, sorry), at least to any effective virtual "benefit" that is directly correlated to being "an aide" to the supposed uber wealthy elite. That's even if you have a great templar who is going to shake everyone down and steal their Welen's sids and give you a bunch. There's not a ton of things that aides can do with the coin when they get it even, except buy outfits/apartment or give it back to get more things done. And if you're a noble aide instead, I hope you picked sewing as your past time, because welcome to standardized pay that doesn't match the player economy at all.

The "safety" offered by the position often comes with the net neutral likelihood of being murdered by whoever wants to target you/your boss/your decisions for the betterment of your group, or because they're just annoyed that you acted like what you are. Yet on the reverse side, you could just be a relatively neutral person uninvolved in that side of things and selling swords to the Salarr shop and the 12 NPCs nearby, to make you a fortune. Meanwhile, progressing with little to no effort otherwise up to being a boss, getting a name for yourself, and eventually doing literally whatever you feel like if you just pay someone enough coin to ignore doing so.

An aide is not generally a great position to be in, for most people. It requires a specific kind a lot of the times, and many peoples' expectations have evolved with that in mind. I 100% am confident that a well-played templar working with a well-played aide can confer a massive amount of coded benefits to them, and also roleplay/life benefits as well, but I think part of the underlying thought here is in how it compares with the drawbacks, and whether or not they match well with the experience of... well, not being an aide, and just being easily rich and influential through the same systems without any of the drawbacks.

Now admittedly, I never went terribly far into the benefits of working for a templar, but these are just my thoughts on some underlying issues/ways to improve the role and not just see the exact same rotation of kinds of people that prefer to do it, over those who might otherwise have been holding back.

Well, I mean, "some individuals" like to take the thread topic seriously, address a known community problem and not just play defense or pen a personal narrative of "proving someone wrong" with the bar for what we're calling proof either comedically low or fantastical.

But all the same, I'm sure you'll find that templarate aide role without issue since again, those jobs are widely available with no one clamoring for them. There's really no need to conjure an illusion of proof or declare it when it's right in front of you, love!

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 03:11:27 PMYou're shifting between the "could-bes" and the anecdote du-jour yourself now is the problem, and from your lack of answer I feel like I have to suggest that you're probably not a player of aides yourself, but sort of just speaking from the place of a third-person supporting the status quo instead of from experience.

For clarity, I'm speaking from a long stretch of personal experience across multiple characters and citing some very real problems with why nobody else winds up doing this job that - again, this thread exists for a reason - no one wants. "There is no problem, you're personally doing something wrong" is not an answer to what certainly seems to be a community problem, not some isolated one.

Aides aren't, and have almost never been, very desired roles. There's things that could improve them; I offered suggestions! Playing defense based on a presumed anecdote for a perspective outside of your personal experience for a visible problem that's almost always existed and continues to at present is just a pretty odd position to take.

If you think aides and being an aide - especially a templarate aide at present - is great, I encourage you to give it a whirl yourself.

It's funny people will tell you the role isn't broken for ages and yet, people don't want it despite how supposedly desirable. People too stupid or job actually broken? (FryMeme.jpg) I've had the same problems with trying to offer feedback about a number of broken roles and somehow both none of them are broken /and/ no one wants to play them, and the people usually telling me this are staff members who clearly know what playing it in this scenario (you know with all the "big changes to the setting" of seasons) or have tended to play 80% or more of the time as sponsored roles. I'm sure from the bosses side the role looks great.

I'm sure from the staff side you think 'that looks great on paper I don't understand' but when you puzzle about it, maybe actually take feedback from people giving it, they might know a thing or two. Maybe understand 'no u' or 'that's not what we want' aren't... ever actually going to solve the problems. If you 2 single individual people were everyone, I'm sure that you not wanting or wanting X would make it super awesome and fun and playable. But as 2% at best of the community... and with a vastly removed perspective from an actual average player... maybe your perspective is too skewed by your circumstances to understand the problem at all, that it exists, OR how to fix it.

And when it's clearly there, listening to people repeatedly arguing it's fine because that makes you feel better than acknowledging the need for change... is only shooting yourself in the foot if you want a thing to function or draw people.

Your assumption about me is incorrect. I have a rather intimate understanding of the dynamic over the last 25 years or so having written documentation, played aides, templars, nobles, and from other perspectives as well.

Once again, I was merely addressing the incorrect information you shared and offering clarity. Some individuals simply dislike being proven wrong and tend to become defensive, even when we're aiming for the same outcome. At this point, I concede; invicta pertinacia.

You're shifting between the "could-bes" and the anecdote du-jour yourself now is the problem, and from your lack of answer I feel like I have to suggest that you're probably not a player of aides yourself, but sort of just speaking from the place of a third-person supporting the status quo instead of from experience.

For clarity, I'm speaking from a long stretch of personal experience across multiple characters and citing some very real problems with why nobody else winds up doing this job that - again, this thread exists for a reason - no one wants. "There is no problem, you're personally doing something wrong" is not an answer to what certainly seems to be a community problem, not some isolated one.

Aides aren't, and have almost never been, very desired roles. There's things that could improve them; I offered suggestions! Playing defense based on a presumed anecdote for a perspective outside of your personal experience for a visible problem that's almost always existed and continues to at present is just a pretty odd position to take.

If you think aides and being an aide - especially a templarate aide at present - is great, I encourage you to give it a whirl yourself.

I don't recall ever saying, "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!" Could you show me where I may have said or implied that? It seems like a red herring to me.

You made some statements that weren't accurate, and I responded by elaborating in what I believed was a polite and constructive manner. If I'm not mistaken, beyond mentioning that playing an aide to a Templar is essentially "aiding on hard mode," I didn't really inject my personal opinion into the discussion. I believe I stuck to factual statements—though I could be wrong.

For clarity, my personal opinion is that playing a Templar's aide is a challenging role, and it's certainly not for everyone. It demands patience, creative thinking, political savvy, and a thorough understanding of the documentation, particularly with regard to social and cultural dynamics. However, it can also be incredibly rewarding, especially if you shift your focus from coded mechanics to the richness of the RP experience.

They really do get stuck in anecdotal fallacy, you're right!

This whole thread for example exists because people aren't taking aide jobs and you're telling everyone "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!"

When's the last time you played an aide, or a templarate aide?