The documentation is not very explicit in how day to day interactions between the sexes, of all the different social classes and backgrounds of Zalanthas. Sadly, this means that it is up to players to fill in those gaps. Inevitably a lot of "RL" seeps in to the roleplay, and immersion may suffer when the similarities are too uncanny for the setting to feel fantasy, to provide a properly fun and escapist experience for everyone.
BTW, I don't want to discuss pejoratives here. This is more about how one should react to issues of sex if they come up, and stay IC and theme-appropriate. After all, we don't want to completely remove sex from our RP; sexual tension, in particular, is often a fun flavor of RP to have, though it definitely isn't the only way to RP and there are a huge variety of personalities and backgrounds to choose from that don't require any particular gender or sexuality. This thread is more about learning how to play out that stuff appropriately when it does come up.
Here are some questions:
1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?
2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?
3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?
The only answer I have to the above types of questions is that there is no answer. In other words, there is nothing documented about these things because there is not supposed to be anything special about being male or female. It's just your character's sexual organs, and otherwise you are roleplaying a Zalanthan. This is why in character creation, all the MUD asks you is "Is your character male or female?" Then moves on.
My point: If you were to take 100 random Zalanthan males and 100 random Zalanthan females, from the whole population of the world including every city and village, on average, any one personality trait would be equally present between the different genders. For example, the degree of aggressiveness, submissiveness, adventurousness, romanticism, creativity, or cockiness, all would be roughly equally present whether male or female. Within certain cultural groups in Zalanthas, it could be IC for that group to denigrate or elevate the status of a certain gender. Who you are as a person is more about where you were from and who raised you, than the fact that you were born with ovaries or testes, in Zalanthas. There may be fads in game one way or the other at times, but on average Zalanthas doesn't have many assumptions about being one sex or the other besides the parts. As players we need to keep this in mind so that we avoid falling into the trap of using RL prejudices or issues as the filler for our RP.
1: Can you rephrase this? Do you mean, "how do sexually active people behave differently?"?
2: I'm very confused that there aren't documented things that display actual sexism, especially within tribes. I get it, worlds hard. But even then, you generally divide stuff. Even if it's as simple as "The women commonly use archery because thats how that worked while the men use crossbows because they just like them, not natural strength." Or vice versa.
Hell, Tuluk sexually divided their Templarate with super powers.
3: I generally go "What the fuck does that have to do with anything" Or something among that nature. Or I wish all. Or I save it for a complaint and staff will generally fix it later. I try not to use OOC for conflict scenarios. I generally use it for funny scenarios of -something funny just happened with the code or something-
4: I have never really been in the 'minority'. I've played a semi-submissive man but I didn't just go around blushing and dropping things so I wasn't ever really thought of as 'strange'. Can't answer much on this.
It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.
1. I don't understand the question, sorry.
2. I would say all attitudes are present and legitimate to play but that the prevalent attitude would be that the genders are equally competent.
3. If it happens IC, respond to it IC. If some PC states a belief that women are weaker/emotional/whatever stupid generalization you want to insert, that's fine. It doesn't mean it's so. It means his PC is wrong. PCs can be, should be, and are often wrong. That's okay. It's good. People can come up with the craziest ideas and so can PCs, that makes them real. The player should have a reason for it, but he doesn't have to play it out for our acceptance of his RP. The PC can just be.
4. I would just...stay IC. Whatever is going on (sounds like you mean something OOC like a sudden change in the kinds of PCs being portrayed), let your PC just keep on keeping on like they were. If you want to respond to it at all, let your PC come up with some theory on why things are as they are and base your reactions on that. It doesn't really have to make sense to anyone but your PC.
By and large, the citizens of the planet Zalanthas aren't aware of the concept of sexism.
It is possible that there exists individual citizens of the planet who have acquired sexist ideas/thoughts/behaviors.
The two sentences above can exist at the same time, and both be equally true.
My characters would likely pass it off as just some idiot whose mommy was weak and therefore he's formed the opinion that all women are weak. Or some dipshit whose boyfriend dumped her for a prettier, less intelligent woman, and has formed the opinion that pretty + stupid = more attractive to men than smart + plainlooking.
I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as there's some IC acceptance that the exceptions are not the rule.
I don't think calling everyone who uses offensive language directed at a female should be labeled a sexist (either on the character or player level) and docked karma or called a bad player.
Recently (I believe this may have been posted about on the GDB) a player was accosted by a player dwarf who wanted to steal her necklace. He was throwing around the word whore a fair bit. My character, had no dog in the fight and didn't care what happened until he noticed the female in question worked for House Borsail. He then proceeded to try to convince the dwarf to go away. He used the same language as the dwarf which meant he called the Borsail aide a whore himself. This was done by the character in an attempt to rationalise with the dwarf. The dwarf being a dwarf refused to budge because FOCUS and all that.
This was one instance where a player may be labelled a sexist because of the actions of their character DESPITE the character not having any actual sexist views.
Another more recent incident involved a female character (dunno if it was played by the same player, but it'd be pretty funny if it was) telepathically communicating with a different character of mine saying they don't want to be known as a whore. My character corrected the female character and said he doubted anyone would care if she was whoring herself out. What would be cared was that they were neglecting their duties and it was likely the female's employer would be unhappy to hear this (my character was trying to blackmail the female character). This was an instance where I took the time to ICly correct someone to say "there's nothing wrong with whoring".
If someone is behaving in a way that I feel involves them bringing their OOC prejudices in game, then I'd send through a player complaint. I don't think any grand sweeping decisions need to be made on what can and can't be said by characters in game. Overall sexism in game seems to be fairly minimal to non-existent.
Quote from: Harmless on June 18, 2017, 01:54:03 AM
Here are some questions:
1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?
2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?
3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?
1) Likely depends on the person and specific relationship. Some people are going to be all lovey dovey at bars, and others are going to be boffing solely on the DL, possibly because one of them is gross (gemmed, breed, mutant).
2) There is documentation that certain sexes are treated differently in certain tribal societies. Barring that, and the former incarnation of the Tuluki templarate, no.
3) Call them out IC or ignore it? However you'd react if someone said that breeds are actually wonderful people or something else equally nonsensical in the documentation.
4) I don't understand the question.
I was in a state of profound sleep deprivation when I made the original post. I see there have been some nice posts regardless of my awful writing anyway so I am gonna just leave it as is or maybe edit it later. Thanks for your help and confirmation of ideas I had about this and some good examples too!
I would avoid the "sexist" language altogether.
The ooc reality is that words like "bitch" or "cunt" are used as a cudgel to hit people for who they are. If you throw that around in game you might be able to claim plausible deniability by using the thermian argument. But that doesn't change the real world context that you are filtering into the game.
So just be a cool dude and avoid that bullshit plox.
Quote from: Harmless on June 19, 2017, 08:20:15 AM
I was in a state of profound sleep deprivation when I made the original post. I see there have been some nice posts regardless of my awful writing anyway so I am gonna just leave it as is or maybe edit it later. Thanks for your help and confirmation of ideas I had about this and some good examples too!
It's a discussion worth having and a discussion that will continually creep up along with other issues. I can say that I've been pretty annoyed with some of the ways my female characters have been treated.
And that's not to knock the success Armageddon has had in keeping the game friendly to all sorts of players with all sorts of lifestyles. But it bears continual discussion in the least.
Can we stop the whole projecting characters to players thing that keeps popping up.
Just because someone is playing a very arsey, bad person with many flaws and prejudice does not mean they're doing some self-insert.
A perfect world with no bad people in it is a far-from-Armageddon world. In no way should you punish someone for being an example of that.
In a world where criminal women are sentenced to rape-by-dwarf death, where the life expectancy is short even though some people can live exceedingly long, and everything is horrible in general, surely some real-life bad themes would still seep in.
Maybe "bitch" isn't thematic because the canines aren't that common or something, but that is the only reason why someone shouldn't use it.
Maybe women in Arma don't have less muscle growth than men and the weakness prejudice isn't thematic either, but from my experience most human women and men are still sort of equivalent to the real-life counterparts.
Imagine if a player who played dwarves a lot suddenly started raving about little-people insensitivities in Arma driving him into OOC rage and demanding it be taken out.
Take every insult to your character, not you yourself, and respond IC however you see fit. The only time I can see an insult being inappropriate if it's just not thematic and has no link to anything in Arma.
This wasn't supposed to be an insult argument but here we are now.
Blittzof I tend to agree with you on everything you just said. In Armageddon, men and women are not THE SAME. They are equal in status and ability to succeed. That is all. Physiologically they ARE different. Females are still the child-bearers, and males are still the sperm-banks. Females - presumably - have the hormones necessary to become pregnant and bear young. It is absolutely positively plausible that females are capable of bitchy behavior - with the word totally intended to be aimed at females, specifically. That isn't sexist. It's biology. Just like females are the ones who end up breastfeeding. When was the last time you mudsexed with a male and a female, where it was the male who took the mul mix? It's almost always the female. Where are the scrab-intestine condoms? When was the last time you saw a male PC with a curvy figure, a feminine flare to their hips, and an impressively large pair of breasts? How "equal" are the sexes in Zalanthas, afterall?
Yes, bitch refers to a female, being female, in a hormonal sense. AND female canines are known as bitches, and gortoks are canines, so it all ties in together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and I don't consider it sexist in the least. Just like I don't consider accusing a man of thinking with his penis to be sexist. Women don't HAVE them, therefore, the insult can't possibly apply to them. So when a male PC spends an inordinate amount of time obsessing about sex, then yes - he is "thinking with his penis (or insert any genre-appropriate substitute for the word)." Again - biology. Even Zalanthan biology has male and female limitations and differences. Equal does not mean the same. If it did, there would be no sexes, it wouldn't be an option in chargen and all our characters would be its instead of hims and hers.
Why can't all Zalanthans just be beautiful hermaphrodites so we can stop having this argument?
Quote from: Lizzie on June 22, 2017, 09:15:03 PM
Yes, bitch refers to a female, being female, in a hormonal sense. AND female canines are known as bitches, and gortoks are canines, so it all ties in together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and I don't consider it sexist in the least.
The meaning and use of the word isn't the same thing. Just becuase bitch means female dog doesn't mean that it's not frequently used as a slur used to attack women for being women.
I have encountered uses of the word ig in ways that are sexist. But thankfully it's not overly common.
You keep saying it as if it's wrong to insult people for something.
The word stump is used to insult dwarves, and can apply to every dwarf as insulting.
It doesn't make it bad. Maybe it's not imaginative, but it's there.
Maybe it's upsetting to draw some real-life conflicts and prejudice into Arma, but humans are in real life, humans are in Arma, albeit more hardy, and you can't wipe clean prejudice between different people. Sure, arma is different in some ways, with the inter-human racism faded away/nonexistant now that everyone is about the same skin color and there are no bases for hardcore skinhead nazi purists to exist, and with the other races to be racist about.
But gender tension existed since the lowest and earliest tribes in history, with matriarchies and patriarchies, and whatever else.
Prostitution/whoring is the oldest profession in existence, why shouldn't it be used as an insult?
If you truly want this to be gone, then you're gonna want to convert all humans to the sexually ambiguous dwarves.
Just look at this classy lady.
(http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/dwaratha.gif)
But you use dick and bitch pretty much the same, one's just female and the other's male. Like using he and she.
He's being a dick, she's being a bitch.
It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal. And by pressing this in-game, making your PC's actions somehow relate to RL, to -your- actions, we've broken something. Maybe irrevocably. I don't know for sure, but I'm concerned.
Last time I was logged in, my PC was in the perfect position to really treat an elf poorly. Like he always does. But now...it doesn't feel right. You've made elves somehow related to real people. And I don't want to treat real people badly, or even pretend to treat real people badly. My brain swirled around looking for a solution to the paradox, and coming up with nothing quickly enough before the moment had passed, I basically ignored the elf.
I'm not sure if I can work through this new PC Armageddon. I'm just not sure.
Quote from: Refugee on June 23, 2017, 08:30:53 AM
But you use dick and bitch pretty much the same, one's just female and the other's male. Like using he and she.
He's being a dick, she's being a bitch.
It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal. And by pressing this in-game, making your PC's actions somehow relate to RL, to -your- actions, we've broken something. Maybe irrevocably. I don't know for sure, but I'm concerned.
Last time I was logged in, my PC was in the perfect position to really treat an elf poorly. Like he always does. But now...it doesn't feel right. You've made elves somehow related to real people. And I don't want to treat real people badly, or even pretend to treat real people badly. My brain swirled around looking for a solution to the paradox, and coming up with nothing quickly enough before the moment had passed, I basically ignored the elf.
I'm not sure if I can work through this new PC Armageddon. I'm just not sure.
A couple of things:
1. While I probably disagree with the censorship and meddling as much as you do, none of it is supposed to be for the benefit of filthy, disgusting elves like the one you encountered IG. Elves are still thieving, lying snakes and one of them probably has a hand in your pocket right now. These new rules are
supposedly for the benefit of the players behind the screen, whether those players are playing elves or not. Just like rape is banned not because that good-looking little indie merchant is now ICly considered too good and too precious to be violated, but because allowing rape causes all sorts of OOC issues that staff would rather not navigate. And that doesn't change whether or not you agree with these rules.
2. Right now, the only place where those new rules have been posted is at the end of a locked thread, posted in the middle of what seems to be an exiting staff member's angry explosion at the playerbase. It's quite possible that most people who play the game have not even seen that thread and are oblivious to any supposed new rules. As I've said before, I trust the staff to repost these rules where everyone can see them--if they didn't, it would be unfair to new players, non-GDBers, and people who for whatever reason just missed the thread. Until that happens, I'm not convinced they're actually a thing, because staff do not tend to bury gamewide rule changes at the ends of locked threads. Nergal gave us all one month to get used to the changes, anyway, so I'm sure clarification will come before our grace period is over. Until then, I'm not too worried about it.
Quote from: Refugee on June 23, 2017, 08:30:53 AMYou've made elves somehow related to real people
Elves are nothing like <insert ethnicity here>. Elves have a biological disposition towards theft and running. Unless you believe that everyone whose <insert ethnicity here> are thieves in real life, you should not be associating them with any RL group.
Quote from: John on June 23, 2017, 09:43:36 AM
Quote from: Refugee on June 23, 2017, 08:30:53 AMYou've made elves somehow related to real people
Elves are nothing like <insert ethnicity here>. Elves have a biological disposition towards theft and running. Unless you believe that everyone whose <insert ethnicity here> are thieves in real life, you should not be associating them with any RL group.
I feel like what Refugee is saying, is that by giving them the "no more <this word>" treatment, its like humanizing them in some way. They're no longer Wops, or Japos, or Krauts. They're people, with families, feelings, similar to you and me. Its harder (not hard, harder) to demean people when you find yourself sympathizing with their plights.
I'm pretty neutral about the removal of one word we use for elves, as we can still use longneck, sharpear, skinny, gutter-trash, etc etc.
But so far as gender/sex, its a very difficult line because while being able to birth children in no way impedes or assists a female in rising up in their job or career in Zalanthas, its entirely possible that someone decides that pregnant females must be cared for, attended to, protected (while in other cultures, a pregnant woman who takes down a raptor a day, guarantees a strong child). If someone calls you a bitch, an angry female gortok that protects its young with ferocity... shit, take it. This isn't the "bitch" of the Modern Western World where you are "strong and independent" or "demanding".
I think both in how we use words in game, as well as how we take them in real life, we need a step back. Being called a dick, to me, means "you have one use in life, and everything else you do is just fluff". If someone calls me a dick, or a dickhead in game, I usually assume they mean "You're nothing but a stick of flesh". Its demeaning, and they mean it as a pejorative, so I take it that way. I don't assume "they're a man-hating second-wave feminazi that thinks penises are evil".
I play Armageddon to chop up motherfuckers with bone swords. Picking male or female doesn't affect this, nothing else is relevant. My position is unassailable; this thread is now over.
People who understand the setting well could use certain words with no issue. But that understanding of what it means to be female or male in Zalanthas isn't universal. Luckily some of the posts above hit on key points of Zalanthan life as a female and how it is free from the shitty prejudices of the real world. I think if all players had the understanding shown by some in this discussion then we wouldn't have to debate censorship or political correctness, because the roleplay in game wouldn't veer on anachronistic or RL-poisoned views of females, who are just as capable of everything in Zalanthas and do not deserve to be the target of insults or false assumptions based on their gender alone.
If I had the time I would try to condense the points made above into a crash course for newbies. I think it would help.
Maybe it's just because of my job, but my #1 definition of "bitch" isn't "cranky..." it's "weak."
As in "stop being a little bitch*," not "she's such a bitch!"
*not that I would ever actually say that
It's a lot of talk about being called a name via your imaginary avatar by other imaginary avatars. If someone is playing a character that can only think up something like calling someone a bitch, why are you interacting with them? You can logoff and go outside for that kind of interaction. Keep pissing people off until you find someone that can call you a dirty erdlu-fu**ing whore rag. Or something equally mollifying in a world of people with no written languages, words should be used vibrantly.
Honestly, I almost think chivalry (dysphemized: whiteknighting) is harder to deal with IG than pejoratives or sex-based prejudice. Who turns away kindness? Especially when your character wouldn't assume it was because of their sex?
I don't know that I have a good way to address it. I suppose one could assume it was an act of courtship (but without the RL eye rolling, because sexes being equal works both ways). 'Oh, thanks! Are you just nice, or is this an offer of something more?' or 'Oh, thanks. I hope you're just being nice, I'm not interested in anything more.'
I dunno. Anyone have experience / good advice for this kind of scenario?
Quote from: James de Monet on June 23, 2017, 05:05:59 PM
Honestly, I almost think chivalry (dysphemized: whiteknighting) is harder to deal with IG than pejoratives or sex-based prejudice. Who turns away kindness? Especially when your character wouldn't assume it was because of their sex?
I don't know that I have a good way to address it. I suppose one could assume it was an act of courtship (but without the RL eye rolling, because sexes being equal works both ways). 'Oh, thanks! Are you just nice, or is this an offer of something more?' or 'Oh, thanks. I hope you're just being nice, I'm not interested in anything more.'
I dunno. Anyone have experience / good advice for this kind of scenario?
As with any jarring, OOC or non-thematic behavior, it is really tough to handle IC. On one hand, you can't just go OOC for fear of starting a jarring OOC argument, and it's really hard to lead by example when/if they simply don't take the hint. Especially if you are playing a female. If you're playing a male and witnessing it, it's still awkward to even acknowledge IC.
As much as I hate feeling like a tattletale, I'm on the verge of deciding I should just send in a player complaint but ask them to simply explain (with examples) why their behavior has no place in Zalanthas, and hope it is framed as a well-meaning educational outreach rather than some sort of finger-shaking rant.
When I first started playing I didn't understand the concept of magick hate in Tuluk and a staff member took the time to write out an email to me explaining why my character's behavior was incongruous and how to fix it.
That really helped me, even if I was horridly embarrassed at the time.
I would like to see documentation explaining that sexism is not the same on Zalanthas as it is on Earth, as both genders are roughly equal in physical strength and have equal opportunities. As a long-term veteran, this is the general culture that I was indoctrinated into back around 2006 but I have trouble finding actual helpfiles that explain this (tried: "help gender", "help sex", "help woman", "help female", and so on).
I don't like the words "bitch" or "dick" in-game, and luckily almost never encounter them. Don't think I've ever used them myself. It's just weird to import sensitive areas of the RL world into a game like this.
Gender things apart from baby machinery don't affect my gameplay because there are no gender things in the game apart from baby machinery.
On my few guy characters, though, I tend not to giggle a great deal in one sitting.
I've heard people call others as 'headless erdlu' which was tastefully zalanthanian.
Then there's 'gith/elf/breed fucker'.
Then I've spewed out tamer profanities such as, 'mek fart' , 'gith fart'.
If wanna go hardcore, then the best that I can think up is 'ball-less/tit-less ingrate'?
Well why put in real world profanities, we use them and hear them so much that they've lost all its flavor. Add salt, pls.
I call people of both gender cunt(insert facial feature here) as much as I call people cock(insert facial feature here).
Sometimes the combinations come out to be hilariously Zalanthan such as a cock-eared gith-fucker.
something that I get confused a bit about is clothing and style. Would a male who has long hair and slight body wearing a dress be pass remarkable? Can males dress in what we would think of as a female style (and vice versa) without it being weird? Or would that then bring the complexity of acknowledging gender-queer characters with neutral pronouns in game (which I think could be pretty difficult, but kind of interesting?)
I can understand why some characters in Zalanthas would turn their nose up at this, as I feel like reproduction is important in such a harsh world, where mothers and fathers would probably want to have many children so as to ensure care in their old age/as much money coming into their community as possible. Therefore sex as a pragmatic activity would make sense, and clear gender-signalling would make sense. However this as well could inform some homophobia in game, which, while it would be "realistic" from this point of view, I really would not like to see due to personal reasons "/.
gender/sex in Zalanthas is a really delicate issue because if we want it to be "realistic" we usually refer to real-life mechanisms of sexual/cultural/gender apparatuses to inform what is "realistic", but a lot of the time these are not great for establishing a game in which a certain amount of diversity and equality is welcomed.
If my male PCs (because I'm awful at the few females I've played) want to be pretty, they'll be pretty. I don't run out in heels and gowns, but there are 'feminine' cut shirts out there, or tight deep-v vests. If they have wavy hair and are proud of it, sure as shit they'll wear ribbons or feathers to draw attention to it.
QuoteBut that doesn't change the real world context that you are filtering into the game.
I'm in opposition to this. I'm not bringing that context into the game; I'm using the bounds of language to make things understood via the tools of dialogue that we have at our disposal. It's -you- who are importing the real life context into the game.
Statements like these, whether you intended it this way or not, make it seem like a real life SJW front is being actively pursued in the game because of the statement that men and women are being treated equally in the game, which has little to nothing to do with names they're called.
Just do what I do. Doggedly view the words in a Zelanthian light.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 15, 2017, 10:31:09 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.
And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?
Quote from: Miradus on August 15, 2017, 10:33:46 AM
Quote from: bcw81 on August 15, 2017, 10:31:09 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.
And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?
Does it make sense for a Zalanthan to do that? Would a Zalanthan care that much about enforcing coherent gender norms?
Quote from: bcw81 on August 15, 2017, 10:31:09 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.
Even dwarves?
Quote from: Miradus on August 15, 2017, 10:33:46 AM
Quote from: bcw81 on August 15, 2017, 10:31:09 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.
And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?
Only if they look ridiculous in it. If they're a man, wearing a dress, in the Gaj? Its not that he's "dressed like a woman" its that he's "dressed all fancy in a shit bar". There's a lot of clothing in game that, to Westerners, might actually LOOK like a dress but its really a kalasiri. Which is LIKE a dress, but I can see men rocking them no problem.
In Nak, you can get thrown into the arena and killed for wearing silk.
Or called a whore for showing too much skin in the Gaj (which we clearly saw demonstrated by a staff animated NPC).
In Luir's or Red Storm, why would any character of mine care if someone is wearing a frilly dress?
But if you're a Naki, it's just stupid to pretend that clothing doesn't matter when so clearly it does in almost every social interaction. There's even helpfiles on what's acceptable clothing in Nak.
Enforcing all this SJW bullshit in this game breaks immersion and waters down the existing lore. It makes for a confusing gameworld and inconsistent because you're unsure which actions are going to suddenly bring some inconsistent and angry response from staff for something you felt was otherwise innocuous.
ETA: I GET that all of you are great and socially responsible human beings who would never use your gender privilege or whatever bywords are current. There's no need for virtue signaling by posting how you would NEVER do such a thing. However not all of our CHARACTERS are socially responsible human beings. Some of them can be pretty fucking vile. And guess what ... that vileness might also extend to areas which we, as modern culturally sensitive people, might find offensive.
Get out your bone sword and get to chopping.
The struggle is the difference between "I discriminate against women because they are <insert poor reasoning here>" and "the entire culture believes women are superior" etc.
Different cultures in game are patriarchal, matriarchal, I'm pretty sure one is led by a man in a goat mask (not really). So there are different stereotypes based on where you live.
Being called a "whore" shouldn't be a pejorative in the first place.
Only in "the city" would someone care about what you're wearing, and even then only if you're representing someone else. If you're a Borsail Wyvern, and you're in public wearing a flowery silk dress, high heels, and enough kohl to choke a mekillot, someone is probably going to wonder whats going on, call you Falish, or something.
I think I draw the line at "He's wearing mens clothes" or "those shoes are for women"
On the point of fashion alone (not gender):
It might be worth pointing folks to Allanaki Fashions helpfile. (One offtopic interesting point: Green is considered unlucky!) There's no mention of gender-specific sartorial norms, but, yes, you would be viewed oddly if you showed a lot of skin, especially if you were a fancier person.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanaki%20Fashions
There was also a cool thread on Allanaki fashion.
Yeah, that's kind of my point too, Riev, stated with less vitriol.
You have literally set up a gameworld with lore and documentation where this, this, and this matters ... but not THIS, hell no, not THIS, because someone will be offended RL.
It's inconsistent and not demonstrative of decent roleplay.
Just to add though, dresses aren't intrinsically "fancy" or frilly, to me it'd kind of make sense that many commoners would wear simple dresses, since they're pretty close to djellabahs, kalasiris etc. and can also be pretty conservative. It'd make no sense for me to see a commoner getting harassed in the gaj for wearing a drab dress with a style like this:
(https://scontent.fdub4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/20885057_10155168151708935_1257881555_n.png?oh=baebc13a341dc5c58b8abd04d0658ae2&oe=59951B14)
Of course, Zalanthan dresses would probably use more breathable material and not be so well put-together, but the long sleeve+low-leg of a dress like this shouldn't really raise eyebrows.
I think the fashion document linked earlier is VERY pertinent and doesn't see enough attention. Southies, despite being in desert heat, cover up almost head to toe. Northerners and tribals tend to be very skin-showing and seen as "barbarians" to the Southies because they aren't cultured enough to hide their shame.
- There ARE docs that suggest that certain kinds of clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women.
- There are trends among NPCs that suggest that certain styles are more often worn by one gender than the other.
- Back when Nyr was still Nyring, he said that a good way to look at it was that masculine or feminine aspects are a thing, but no one would be considered aberrant for "cross-dressing" because there is no sex thought of as weaker or stronger, worse or better.
- There are items IG that say masculine or feminine, and while some think this is only an OOC designation comparable to when a PC has "ice-blue" eyes, it still counts as weak evidence, especially in light of the preceding points.
All of this suggests to me that some clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women and vice versa. None of this makes it okay to treat someone poorly because they are wearing clothes typical of the other gender. That is disallowed. The most I think you should view it as is slightly unusual. Only the most sensitive people IRL freak out when a woman wears a tux. The main reason some people freak out when a man wears a dress is because of how "emasculating" it is perceived to be. That would not be an issue on Zalanthas, nor would the "defeminization" of a woman, because women are known to be potentially as brutal and capable as anyone, while men are just as likely to be sensitive and non-combat-prone as anyone.
That is my interpretation. The other (perhaps more common) interpretation is that there are absolutely zero styles or trends that apply more to women than to men or vice versa, and a man in a frilly dress is exactly as common as a woman in a frilly dress. To me this is bland and homogenous. I think we are allowed to accept that there are some weak traditional aesthetic norms as long as we do not go too far and mistreat people for breaking them.
In none of the following documentation that has followed Armageddon for at least a decade, likely longer, does it state anywhere that one sort of garment is for men and the other sort is for women.
Tuluk Fashions (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Fashions)
Allanak Fashions (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanaki%20Fashions)
Tribal/Red Storm/Luir's/Etc. Fashions (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tribal%20Fashions)
About two years ago any clothing with an sdesc of 'feminine' or 'masculine' in the sdesc had the term removed because there is no clothing item in the game world that is meant for one sex or the other.
Not true, Akariel. I think you have stuff that got overlooked.
Bisht
A robe-like, sleeved garment typically worn by men. When worn closed, one side overlaps the other. It fits loosely, comes in one size and may have to be hemmed to fit.
Kilt
A one-piece wrapping that resembles short pants beneath a skirt. A favored piece amongst men for the freedom it offers. Worn by men of all castes in several regions.
These are just the ones that come straight to mind. I'm not sure if there are others.
Nevermind, elf'd by sleepyhead on kilt and bisht.
Curiously, cowl is a preference for gicks:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Cowl
Yes, the kilts are worn by men for junk reasons according to the docs, but I don't see why kilts would be favored by men over other skirts, or why women wouldn't choose to wear them just as often, so it still doesn't make that much sense in a world with absolutely no gender-specific clothing whatsoever. But I guess that's the world we're playing in, so I'm just going to have to adapt like I always do.
There may be a few odd helpfiles like that, but they are contradicted in other places. For example:
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20FashionsKilts and pteryges that leave the legs bare are also popular with men and women.
Bishts inparticular should probably be unisex (and the helpfile changed) since they're a part of a main clan's uniform.
A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips. It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front. The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors. The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide.
Feminine cut.
Quote from: Riev on August 15, 2017, 12:42:27 PM
A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips. It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front. The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors. The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide.
Feminine cut.
Yes. There are a -lot- of items in game, and not all of them follow the guidelines of 'show, don't tell'. Please typo items like this when you see them so we can correct errors like this.
I feel like these kinds of policies are well-intentioned but don't actually accomplish what they're supposed to. Dman's (rest his soul) interpretation was that men and women are exactly, 100% physically identical except for the boobs and nethers. Therefore, women and men had the exact same voices, and were exactly as likely to have beards, and there was no distinguishable difference in facial features, hips, waists, or anything else. That necessarily means if a woman has small breasts that are currently not visible and their junk is not showing at the moment, they are ALWAYS indistinguishable from men, no matter what they otherwise look like.
I don't know if Dman's interpretation is really the decree of the staff, but if it is, it flies in the face of the stated intention for the anti-sexism and gender roles rules, which is that women should feel comfortable playing badass--and maybe "masculine" by Earth standards--women without being berated or questioned all along the line for it. And I 100% get that and appreciate it. However, if we take it too far, we aren't really getting to play women anymore. We are just playing unigendered humanoids with boobs and vaginas. This reduces what makes a woman a woman to cushioning and piping, and it doesn't make me feel like I'm getting an opportunity to play an inspiring woman. My character may as well be a man and could have exactly the same sdesc and mdesc (down to the waspish waist and ample hips) with pronouns switched and references to boobs removed.
And what if I were a cross-dressing man who wanted to play a cross-dressing man in Zalanthas? I literally couldn't. I might appreciate a policy that cross-dressing is accepted, except that isn't the case here. It apparently does not exist anywhere in the world in any form. I don't think that's empowering, either.
So if the intention is to be able to play what you want without feeling stifled by the same prejudices you experience IRL, these policies are not accomplishing that. Taking away discrimination based on certain things is OK, but taking away the existence of something limits creativity and self-expression. It's almost offensive, actually, suggesting that if women and men had different styles or physical characteristics associated with them, discrimination would HAVE to arise. It kind of reeks of justifying RL sexism, where there actually are traits and styles associated with the genders, as if you are saying that somehow sexism is valid as long as men and women look different or wear different things, so you have to keep those differences out of the game to justify no sexism.
I really don't see what's so wrong with having certain items have male or female cuts to them. A breastplate definitely comes to mind.
This is kind of funny, because I had a similar conversation about male and female clothes irl. The example I used was a male and female style football jersey. They're cut differently and it's a case where it's ok to wear either one if you're a woman. Some women are going to feel more comfy wearing a men's jersey...for reasons. Some women are going to wear a woman's jersey no matter what.
That's how I see zalanthan clothes. You have the choice, but certain things you just wouldn't. A female really doesn't need a cup like nether region protector. Not the same kind of armor down there.
I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.
Quote from: Akariel on August 15, 2017, 02:25:37 PM
I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.
Oooh, yeah got ya.
So like, instead of having a man-sized hunger, you describe why your hunger deserves the Hungry-Man dinner plan.
Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.
I've always liked how the Nietzcheans do it in Andromeda. You are not Tyr, some dudes son. You are Tyr Anasazi, out of Victoria by Barbarossa. I like to believe most tribes would do it similarly, where your heritage actually means something. Unless you're Arabet, in which case your dad was just some buff looking Sergeant they thought would make a tuff kid.
Quote from: Riev on August 15, 2017, 03:41:55 PM
Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.
I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.
Quote from: Molten Heart on August 15, 2017, 03:51:33 PM
Quote from: Riev on August 15, 2017, 03:41:55 PM
Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.
I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.
And with that environment, I can see a rival clan who believes in different values to consider THEIR OWN women to be better. But I just can't come up with a reason to say something like "That's a woman's job" or "What are you, a weak woman/bitch?" or something like that. If you do believe that, you are certainly playing the more rare side of things, like a psychosis developed from having a mother routinely 'allow' herself to be beaten, so you think all women are weak. I don't imagine in Zalanthan society, a man who hates women with that much scorn would last very long.
I think there is a big gap in the difference between genders being equal for all physical capabilities and there being no difference in how those gender are treated.
This is sexism (belief certain genders should fall into certain societal norms) vs chauvinism (believe one gender is superior to the other).
IMHO, chauvanism should not exist is Zalanthis, but there are certain roles for which one gender is simply going to be selected over the other by pure biology.
For example. In this post-apocalyptic world, men (far as I know) still do not bear children. If the biological override to sustain the populace is gone, that's one thing. If it is not, then by that very fact men and women are not identical. You don't need a bunch of men to sustain the population. Men aren't going to be carrying children to term. Men aren't going to die as a result of the birthing process. Men can't feed the child after it is born. In short, men are far more disposable than women. You just don't need them past a very particular moment in time.
So... who do you send out on the dangerous tasks? The disposable ones. Who do you keep around (to a point)? The ones that can replace all those disposable minions.
Men would be kept around if they were healthy and strong, eg able to better produce offspring that are likewise "useful".
Women would be kept around if they were healthy and strong and able to bear children that were healthy and strong.
Everyone else (and here's your true equality) would be disposable.
You're a weak, sickly female? You're a drag on your society. Good bye.
You're a weak, sickly male? You're a drag on your society. Good bye.
You're a strong, healthy male, do your duty and then get out there to do those dangerous tasks that are likely to get someone dead. Thanks for helping.
You're a strong, healthy female? Don't want to bear children? Ok, you're in the same boat as the strong healthy men. Eg, you're disposable. Get into the grinder.
You're a strong, healthy male that doesn't want to behave like a strong, healthy male? Well you're more of a drag than the weak, sickly guy. Who's gonna feed you? Get out.
You're a strong, healthy female? You're able to bear strong healthy children? You're top of the food chain... Until there's too many children. Then you're disposable. Get into the grinder.
So does it make sense for a woman to present as "masculine" sure does. Says, I'm not here to bear children. I'm here to break shit and get stuff done.
Does it make sense for a man to present as "feminine"? Sure, but probably less so. As your place in society is... what?
Edit: Removed separate topic.
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.
It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses. That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game. It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'. It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm. I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.
Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten. People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'. Yes. They can. It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 15, 2017, 04:30:42 PM
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.
It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses. That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game. It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'. It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm. I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.
Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten. People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'. Yes. They can. It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.
I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter. If someone does decide to have a PC that has that kind of bias, don't expect it to be normal or even many people to agree with it.
Quote from: LucildaHunta on August 15, 2017, 06:00:11 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 15, 2017, 04:30:42 PM
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.
It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses. That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game. It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'. It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm. I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.
Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten. People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'. Yes. They can. It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.
I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter.
Yeah. Women look like women and men look like men, and you all think way too hard about this shit.
Sorry not sorry. You do.
There's a reason women didn't wear pants until recently. When you had to squat to take a piss, dresses made sense. Also gave easy access for sex without having to remove all that garb. True, notions of modesty developed around these fundamental needs.
Some cultures developed dress-like garb for men, and they tend to be Zalanthan-like, hot arid places. Do they have access panels or anything? To stick a hand in or to stick a penis out? Do these guys lift up their hems in front? Seems like that would be annoying.
It's my opinion that most cultures develop female garb without much care for comfort and male garb with an eye to comfort. That's something that probably wouldn't have happened in Zalanthas.
Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny. Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing. But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.
In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.
Quote from: Refugee on August 15, 2017, 08:53:22 PM
Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny. Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing. But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.
Probably a different man.
As long as people realize that Zalanthas isn't Lake Wobegan, I'm pretty happy.
Quote from: Miradus on August 15, 2017, 08:57:52 PM
In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.
Men squat to piss? Seriously?
Less splashback.
Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.
These are the REAL questions we should be asking
I've always thought the ability to pee so conveniently was one of the things men got the good end of the stick on.
Quote from: ExtraPlanar on August 16, 2017, 08:16:46 AM
Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.
These are the REAL questions we should be asking
"If you don't gotta pee you're not drinking enough."
(boot camp flashback)
What a good question. I bet they pee less.
Quote from: Refugee on August 15, 2017, 10:30:34 PM
Quote from: Miradus on August 15, 2017, 08:57:52 PM
In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.
Men squat to piss? Seriously?
Yep.
I think the standing to piss is a western thing. In most of the parts of the Middle East where I was, they would squat over a hole in the ground. Even in bathrooms.
I did not, but mostly because of mechanical reasons. Public restrooms are filthy and I was worried about the hem of my thobe touching the filth. In every other aspect I tried to blend.
Never too old to learn something new. I had no idea.
There are fatwas issued on how exactly a man should piss. Religious scholars weigh in on whether or not the Prophet would squat to piss or not, and how he would feel about the use of toilet paper.
In one area I was at, we would go eat at this restaurant every day. (We lived on the economy, which in military terms meant we weren't stationed at a base but rather went to an office, wore civilian clothes to fit in, and ate wherever we wanted.)
In the restaurant's bathroom there was a hole in the ground (a pipe) and a bucket of water. For my first week or so there, I was confused about what was what. Nobody explains these things to the fresh off the plane kid. So I pissed in the bucket.
Finally someone tells me the bucket is for washing your hand off after you take a shit. There's no toilet paper, these being Muslims who follow the traditional "wipe with your left hand" ideal.
Equally disgusting, because you can visually see that at least some of the handwashers have been "double dipping" and have left floating evidence.
The final kicker was when I walked in one day to find the restaurant busboy (this kid maybe 9 years old) WASHING THE DISHES in the handwashing shit bucket.
To this day I don't know if it was maliciousness towards westerners (the restaurant was frequented by westerners) or simply the level of "don't give a fuck" that 90% of the Middle East exhibits in their day to day activities. You got hepatitis? That's Allah's will. Food poisoning? Allah's will again.
It's different in big urban areas like Riyadh, where Arabs are actively trying to be more western (mostly ditching the more beautiful traits of their own culture for the ugliest aspects of western culture). There you have more westernized bathrooms with urinals and sinks. Except everyone wants to talk to you while they piss standing up, to show you how modern they are. "Hey, Abi! I'm pissing while standing up! Just like you Americans! Look, you can see my dick!"
Apparently the prohibition on pissing standing up, some religious scholars believe, comes from the immodesty of flopping your pecker out for casual observation.
In Saudi it's worse because they have the Mutawa. The Mutawa are these long beared old men who walk up and down the streets with canes to make sure everyone is obedient to Allah. And they have no compunctions at all about whacking you with a cane if they think you aren't. Restaurants will close during prayer time. When the Adhan sounds you just leave your unfinished food on the table, run down to the mosque, say your prayers, and hustle back to finish your (now cold) falafel or kebob. Except not being a Muslim, I couldn't go to a mosque so I had to just find someplace to hide from the Mutawa or risk being whacked with a cane and causing a big fuss. So I'd leave the restaurant and go hide in this alley behind the place. And in the alley there'd always be these male teenagers who were also hiding out from the Mutawa and smoking cigarettes. They often wouldn't know much English at all but would just throw out random words at you. One kid insisted "Shania Twain" was a proper greeting and said that to me every day for four months.
Ah. Travel. It's so broadening.
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.
Quote from: ExtraPlanar on August 16, 2017, 11:02:46 AM
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.
Granted.
Quote from: Akariel on August 16, 2017, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: ExtraPlanar on August 16, 2017, 11:02:46 AM
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.
Granted.
I'm glad this has finally all been resolved!
Close the thread, mods!
(https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7c6148068e8b37e4818dbbb90c816398)
This thread.
1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?
A person might be more openly affectionate to a player, but keep in mind that people have "mates" in this world. They don't get "married" and exclusivity is extremely relative. There is nothing in the society here that demands a person on take -one- mate.
2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?
Several of the echos in the gaj are homosexual, and there are many homosexual pairings throughout the world.
3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
Kill them.
4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?
There are plenty of women in the world of both side, and keep in mind that some of the more demure females are still kicking ass and taking names. Just because someone isn't an overtly vial bitch, doesn't mean they aren't kicking ass.
I feel like there is some strange stereotype between shy/quiet and aggressive/strong
People, both in real life and in the game, are more than that.
um, I think... um... sorry what was the question?
there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc. that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality. but I'm not sure if that's even the point you are making.
It's not in the helpfiles, I think it's in the quickstart guide.
My characters aren't prejudiced in terms of sex, but in regardes to description. If you are described as soft, I'll think of you as such. Even if it isn't true.
Just act like you feel you should while showing respect to both your fellow players and proper roleplay alike.
If someone says something jarring treat the situation as your character would. If they continue to be jarring simply report to staff and avoid them in the meantime.
I've seen IC people use the word c*** with much more vehemence and insulting meaning towards people, as if it's a much worse word than d***, sometimes in fact never saying the latter and ALWAYS using the first as the go-to "worst word you can possibly use to describe someone" - though at least I haven't seen people casually throw p***y around to imply weak or useless, it's the same kind of thing really.
Quote from: satine on November 17, 2017, 12:55:55 PMSeveral of the echos in the gaj are homosexual, and there are many homosexual pairings throughout the world.
I've actually seen at least two like that, maybe three even, but always males, I suspect it might be a bit of unconscious bias in the nature of the usual selection of programmers/staff on text based games :) I don't think I've ever seen anything referencing two women anywhere come to think of it...
Quote from: satine on November 17, 2017, 12:55:55 PMQuote3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
Kill them.
I haven't seen that, but I'd be really disappointed if that isn't being dealt with/wished up to report when it happens, things can't get better if staff don't know who keeps doing it, right?
Quote from: satine on November 17, 2017, 12:55:55 PMThere are plenty of women in the world of both side, and keep in mind that some of the more demure females are still kicking ass and taking names. Just because someone isn't an overtly vial bitch, doesn't mean they aren't kicking ass.
I feel like there is some strange stereotype between shy/quiet and aggressive/strong
People, both in real life and in the game, are more than that.
I thought this was good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLVwEjr_n8o
Transcript: https://pastebin.com/S4ZLu2XN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1liVw-fRkTM
I didn't know it was impossible to have poker in Australia.
Quote from: 650Booger on November 17, 2017, 06:11:10 PM
there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc. that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality.
Two interesting thoughts to be made, here, and they both stem from the physical difference of being a sex which can birth a child or not. The idea that there are 0 physiological or psychological differences resulting from millennia of child-birthing and rearing is pretty silly, even in a fantasy setting. Evolution is still a thing in Zalanthas, yeah? .....Actually....
IS evolution a thing in Zalanthas? If not, the premise of 0 sexual differences with the exception of genitalia becomes less problematic.
Regarding stats, I think it would be an awesome addition to variety if there /were/ inherent differences between stats and skills between the genders. For instance, a lower strength cap and a higher dex cap for females as opposed to their male counterparts. Or a bump to foraging.
Regarding personality... How could, as I said before, millennia of rearing children
not result in a more caring, empathetic sex?
nah. i like there being no stat-skill variation between the genders in this game.
also, this is a harsh world where people sell their babies to borsail so they can eat food, so... you tell me.
Hello everyone. I have PC interest in this quite deeply. I feel the scale is well balanced from what I see IG. I want to be careful with my words here. I have played a few variants on each side, female and male alike. No one has treated any of my characters with seeming OOC influence around their sex really. If I play a frail one that needs to be "cared for", or "weak" I find THAT's the part Zalathans in general separate. And I RP accordingly case by case as best I can. I've used the term "whore" IG myself but assumed it was a job like "grebbing" and not meant ever to assume gender specifics. Is there another neutral term used I should adopt for anyone taking favors for sex among Commoners? I may have missed something but seriously thanks to all of you for your comments
Whore is fine, for both males and females. The only time it would be seen as an insult is if you are calling someone who is a concubine, courtesan, or high-class escort a "whore," because it is a common word that they might see as beneath their station. It'd be kind of like calling a respected concert violinist a "fiddler." Maybe they're cool with that word, or maybe they'll be offended.
Quote from: Melkor on November 22, 2017, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: 650Booger on November 17, 2017, 06:11:10 PM
there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc. that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality.
Two interesting thoughts to be made, here, and they both stem from the physical difference of being a sex which can birth a child or not. The idea that there are 0 physiological or psychological differences resulting from millennia of child-birthing and rearing is pretty silly, even in a fantasy setting. Evolution is still a thing in Zalanthas, yeah? .....Actually.... IS evolution a thing in Zalanthas? If not, the premise of 0 sexual differences with the exception of genitalia becomes less problematic.
Regarding stats, I think it would be an awesome addition to variety if there /were/ inherent differences between stats and skills between the genders. For instance, a lower strength cap and a higher dex cap for females as opposed to their male counterparts. Or a bump to foraging.
Regarding personality... How could, as I said before, millennia of rearing children not result in a more caring, empathetic sex?
The reason is because that's the setting. The setting of Zalanthas is that men and women are physical equals. The setting of Zalanthas is that men and women PCs can be as empathetic or un-empathetic as their players deem them to be.
The code supports the setting, not the other way around. It is intentional that there is no stat differences between men and women in the game. I think if you want to play a game where the sexes are presented differently, Armageddon isn't and will never be the game for that.
Stat differences? Nope.
Slight mental differences due to having to push a baby out your junk? Probably.
To say more, there should be a slight difference in a simple mentallity sense, animals all take care of their young, and so do humans, but the mother carries that child for 9 months, (or 2 or whatever in Zalanthas.) and thus, should probably have a motherly attachment to said person they shoot out their baby cannon.
There is otherwise no discernable difference between the two.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 22, 2017, 04:22:02 PM
Stat differences? Nope.
Slight mental differences due to having to push a baby out your junk? Probably.
To say more, there should be a slight difference in a simple mentallity sense, animals all take care of their young, and so do humans, but the mother carries that child for 9 months, (or 2 or whatever in Zalanthas.) and thus, should probably have a motherly attachment to said person they shoot out their baby cannon.
There is otherwise no discernable difference between the two.
That is entirely up the player of the mother. There is not, and will never be, game documentation stating how much a Zalanthan mother should or shouldn't care about their children. The game documentation will never say "you should have a motherly attachment."
Its also a chemical thing inside your head. Are Zalanthans really so different that they have no chemicals in their head telling them to do things? I doubt it.
To be clear, im not saying YOU MUST DO THIS!!!!!
I am saying that its not a terrible idea to follow general human things.
As far as naughty words are concerned, I don't have an opinion. I would imagine given cultural considerations on Zalanthas, calling someone a male genital or female would be equivalently insulting.
However, the evolutionary biologist in me wants to point out that even when physically synonymous, biology dictates massive behavioral differences between males and females, simply because in most species, reproductive investment is not equal. This is also true in humans, as long as women carry the fetus to term. Men can fire and forget. Women have to feed the parasite for a while, even if you're planning to abandon the offspring with zero post natal care.
This has consequences for mate choice and effective population size (women count more than men for Ne), which has cascading societal implications in a social species like humans and, I imagine, elves and dwarves, even when physical prowess is standardized across sex. There's a really robust body of research on this, including the reverse when males are the pregnant sex (see Adam Jones, now at U of Idaho, for some cool genomics on it).
Salient to my protests from a biological standpoint, I think roleplay interactions would be significantly less interesting if we treated sexes as identical rather than equal despite their differences. The conflict and misunderstandings between sexes is foundational in fantasy and literature of all stripes and we'd be worse off without it in Arm.
Ultimately, however, it's a game where anuthing can be taken as true if the lore says so, so if it's to be that men and women ought to be synonymous, then that's cool, too.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 22, 2017, 04:39:07 PM
Its also a chemical thing inside your head. Are Zalanthans really so different that they have no chemicals in their head telling them to do things? I doubt it.
To be clear, im not saying YOU MUST DO THIS!!!!!
I am saying that its not a terrible idea to follow general human things.
Zalanthans aren't real. There are no chemicals in their heads because they are not real. You can play your PC however you want because of this. If you decide your PC has an innate attachment to things, great, if not, great.
If they are not real within their own world, why do we bother RPing when someone dies that its upsetting? Why do they have happy days and anger spikes.
They are very real. At least within the world of Zalanthas anyway.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 22, 2017, 04:59:08 PM
If they are not real within their own world, why do we bother RPing when someone dies that its upsetting? Why do they have happy days and anger spikes.
They are very real. At least within the world of Zalanthas anyway.
Because you as the player made those choices. They are only as real as you make them.
In the real world, obsidian and bone make poor swords. Just sayin'.
Quote from: valeria on November 22, 2017, 06:05:31 PM
In the real world, obsidian and bone make poor swords. Just sayin'.
Swords are Earthly weapons developed at the end of the Iron Age / beginning of the Bronze age. Their creation/invention was dependent on metal. The game bends Earthly concepts to fit its fantastic parameters.
While we're on the derail about swords.... The obsidian sword has to be the most oocly jarring bit of IG content I've experienced. Anybody who also flintknaps would share this sentiment, I imagine.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 22, 2017, 02:02:44 PM
nah. i like there being no stat-skill variation between the genders in this game.
also, this is a harsh world where people sell their babies to borsail so they can eat food, so... you tell me.
Would you say there are more Zalanthan infants sold into slavery than raised to childhood, or less? If more, you're absolutely right. If less, you are incorrect; it would not effect evolutionary development of mothers' compassion.
Quote from: Ender on November 22, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
The code supports the setting, not the other way around. It is intentional that there is no stat differences between men and women in the game. I think if you want to play a game where the sexes are presented differently, Armageddon isn't and will never be the game for that.
The code corresponds to the setting, in which there is information to support considering evolutionary development.
I get that the rules are rules, this is why my first post in this thread was:
Quote from: Melkor on June 18, 2017, 02:37:07 AM
It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.
My ideas regarding more reasonable gender differences were offered in order to better accommodate the suspension of disbelief, and facilitate easier immersion, in theory.
Been lurking and reading comments as they pop up, a lot of good thoughts here even if I don't necessarily agree with them all. I happen to agree with Ender. If playing a PC with a few particular consistent traits makes it easier on your immersion, and consequently on the immersion of those interacting with your character, then that's just peachy, however, if someone chooses to play with different traits than your preferred traits, that is an equally valid decision.
Agree with Evil Cabbage as well, to a so-so extent, on the point about selling babies to Borsail. I don't believe that constitutes a lack of empathy, however, simply a tough decision to make. If the child's parent cannot afford to feed themselves, much less the child, selling them into slavery may actually be the most practically selfless thing they could do given the situation. Many slaves live BETTER lives than the average commoner. It's likely a heartbreaking decision to let a child go like that, but, in the long run, is what's best for the child. It's typically criminal scum forced into slavery that end up working jobs like the mines, if I recall correctly, though someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
A mother doesn't necessarily have to bond with a child to raise them, although it helps the child to develop into a more productive member of modern society if they do. Zalanthas is a fucked up enough place where humans would be strong enough to grit their teeth and survive without it, otherwise breeds would be impossible.
Quote from: Grapes on November 23, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
A mother doesn't necessarily have to bond with a child to raise them, although it helps the child to develop into a more productive member of modern society if they do. Zalanthas is a fucked up enough place where humans would be strong enough to grit their teeth and survive without it, otherwise breeds would be impossible.
The mother-child bond of love is formed in a large part by the chemical oxytocin, which is released during childbirth and breastfeeding. This is a reason why mothers of adopted infants are encouraged to breastfeed, to form that chemical bond. Going through the motions will result in attachment. Ya cant fight chemicals, really.
Yes, I've read quite a bit about oxytocin... that said, there are real world examples of failure to bond that have occurred despite the presence of the hormone. Males produce oxytocin as well, and so bond with others, so really what the whole "oxytocin" thing comes down to is most people aren't a dickhead to everyone %100 of the time. While women have more reason to produce oxytocin over the course of their lives, this isn't necessarily a gaurentee they'll bond more frequently, and in fact, may constitute a liability that may influence evolutionary processes over time, leading to decreased significance of bonding in some humanoids.
Most reptiles don't bond with their young (to my understanding), and there's still reptiles all over the place... so I don't necessarily agree with "because oxytocin", all I agree with is play your PC as you imagine them to be, and don't point fingers if someone plays an overly aloof PC, even in the presence of situations that may stimulate a release of oxytocin. Myself, my characters tend to bond rather easily and be protective, but in a harsh world it's not always going to be like that (some cases may be more or less pronounced). For the players that take up the slack, kudos.
I think probably most mothers of Zalanthas care for their children as much as Earth mothers do. If your PC mother doesn't, cool. If she does, cool. Play what you want.
If someone says something sexist IC, don't report it. There will be sexists in Zalanthas. Zalanthans tends toward being assholes. A PC's experience might make them think the way they do. Or they might just say shit because it pisses people off and they like that. Play it the way your PC would react. Otherwise, -you- are the one doing it wrong.
If you want to play a sexist PC, do it. Play what you want. Just have a reason for it, and accept the IG consequences.
Except isn't that against the game rules?
Quote from: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 07:15:51 PM
Except isn't that against the game rules?
Not necessarily, against the rules, but it would kind of be the exception to the norm, and earn you a lot of odd looks for being an obvious dingbat, or should.
Quote from: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 07:15:51 PM
Except isn't that against the game rules?
Very much so. There is no sexism in ArmageddonMUD.
Very good description here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19685.msg212473.html#msg212473
Quote
Your character must choose to be male or female. Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she, etc.). Women and men are equal on Zalanthas.
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.
Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php
Quote from: nauta on November 23, 2017, 07:58:18 PM
Quote
Your character must choose to be male or female. Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she, etc.). Women and men are equal on Zalanthas.
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.
Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php
Sadly, seen this go without being enforced.
...Which is why you should report it.
Quote from: nauta on November 23, 2017, 07:58:18 PM
[quote
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally.
Source: http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php
[/quote]
Seems to sum it up completely.
No sexism, does not mean no differences.
It just seems so childish. Amos said men are better than women, so we tattle on Amos's player to the authorities. Instead of having Amos reap the IG consequences of everyone knowing he's a dickhead.
amos said men are better than woman, so we pointed him to talia.
talia broke his legs and punched all his teeth out of his mouth.
talia is sergeant of the breed fuckers unit of the byn.
talia is an elf.
amos doesn't talk anymore.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 24, 2017, 03:16:24 PM
amos said men are better than woman, so we pointed him to talia.
talia broke his legs and punched all his teeth out of his mouth.
talia is sergeant of the breed fuckers unit of the byn.
talia is an elf.
amos doesn't talk anymore.
Talia's problem is not being female, it's being an elf.
All of Talia's punches would bounce harmlessly against Amos' fleshy defense.
The 'players will self regulate lolsexism behaviour and not actually deliberately enable each other without oversight' idea applied to any other group of humans in the world didn't work out so well
we're different. we'll regulate it.
you'll see.
In a world where racism is the norm it seems odd to consider that sexism doesn't exist. It's perfectly fine to absolutely hate everyone with black hair but you can't hate them because they have testicles.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on November 25, 2017, 09:30:02 AM
In a world where racism is the norm it seems odd to consider that sexism doesn't exist. It's perfectly fine to absolutely hate everyone with black hair but you can't hate them because they have testicles.
The documentation is pretty explicit that
speciesism exists as a norm in Zalanthas (elf vs. human, etc.). It is also clearly documented that
sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas. I'm not sure if it is documented, but I don't think that
racism exists in Zalanthas in the sense that you would be racist against a fellow Allanaki citizen based on the color of their skin or hair (with the exception of mutants, of course).
There's plenty of other ways of being hateful available -- from the perspective of an average Allanaki citizen, for instance, you can be hateful towards:
1. Gicks.
2. Tribals
3. Tulukis
4. Red Stormers / Luirsians (indeed, anyone who isn't a citizen of Allanak)
5. Elves
6. Mutants
7. Half-giants
8. Half-elves
9. Dwarves
10. Muls
11. Rinthers
I apologize for using racism as a synonym for speciesism. However, the point remains. I'm not saying prohibiting sexism is right or not only that it doesn't quite seem to fit when is it it is okay to hate people based on pretty much anything else that you want to.
It seems that in this setting it would be perfectly reasonable for sexism to exist, along with every other possible form of ism, and it seems more like an OOC consideration to prevent hurt feelings.
The documentation is what it is and it needs to be followed regardless of personal feelings. I simply question the reason behind that particular bit. It has never affected my gameplay in the past and will likely not affect in the future.
TLH, are you male or female? Because sexism absolutely exists in the game regardless of if it should. Because you havent personally experienced it doesn't invalidate the need for that rule. Things would be far worse if those attitudes were permitted unchecked.
Let's talk Zalanthan science! The way I like to see it is: Yes the sexes undeniably have different body parts, but if you're playing Arm you just have to imagine a world where the biological/chemical makeup of Zalanthans doesn't necessarily always exactly correspond to a common biological makeup of Earth humans. Of course infant-nurturing females and non-infant-nurturing males aren't even universal in RL, nor are all men stronger than all women etc, so it's not even demanding something that's scientifically impossible. So hopefully it's not too hard a leap when you're already imagining a world with giant insects and magick! In what way that affects evolution is still a mystery I guess - but they're managing to survive. In RL hunter-gather-nomadic societies, there's growing evidence women hunted as much, travelled thousands of miles, did the same physical work as men, whilst dealing with periods, pregnancy and lactating. And there was more shared responsibility for child-rearing. Women are ridiculously far from being weak, and we're magnifying that to Zalanthan levels.
Zalanthans accept as normal that women and men have equal capacity to display qualities we're used to attributing to being masculine and feminine, therefore sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, as gender devaluation for certain characteristics just isn't a 'thing'. So while it's fair to RP an individual PC as hating the other sex (if you as a player accept and help display that PC is an abnormal weirdo), lumping gender characteristics into that hate just shouldn't come into play as you'd be trying to rewrite the game's core reality - and perhaps be aware you risk coming across as just trying to bend the entire gameworld to suit your potential, individual, RL biases.
There are so many games where you can find women pigeonholed into stereotypical 'feminine' roles if that's what floats your boat - please don't try and bring it to one of the few fantasy games that treats women and men equally. It's still feels like quite a rare concept in this genre and it can also enhance the enjoyment for a lot of women RPing females when freed from contending with the usual RL biases of their daily life. I know I've always found it an incredibly refreshing, awesome and maybe a groundbreaking aspect of Arm - it's something to be cherished imo.
It is an original, groundbreaking aspect of Arm, that the sexes are 100% equal and sexism is strictly taboo.
In fact, one of the first things that Cat Rambo mentioned, when being interviewed about this game by Roguelike radio, was that deliberate action was taken initially to encourage female participation, and one of the things she was proudest of regarding Arm was that women could play and not feel hassled.
This seems particularly odd to me, as the player's identity is separate from the character's. A female player could play male or female characters, and a male player could do the same; so why is it that it is so crucial for the female playerbase - in order to feel comfortable playing - that their own female characters have stilts to walk on? Stilts being an artificial construct which alters supposed "standard" behavior, interaction, and dynamics.
Probably because you're a dude and don't see how prevalent blatantly sexist atmospheres are almost encouraged in fantasy RPI/RPG games. Slut shaming is real, pretty-little-princessifying every woman you meet is real, offering to help the damsel in distress is real. In ArmageddonMUD, those scenarios are few and far between, and so remotely non-existent in comparison. It's refreshing, and i'm glad it's a rule and foundation stone of the game community.
For example, I really liked playing HarshlandsRPI. But every woman in that game was turned into a pretty little princess, no one should let the woman open the door, no one should let the woman get dirty with mud when it's raining outside...The rabbit hole was deep. There were exceptions, particularly for long-lived Female PCs that could rip ass if you looked at them sideways, but every new Female PC? People would get confused if you were a female Blacksmith, asking why you weren't a trader or chose to be an Inkeeper's Helper instead.
I'm confused what you're arguing for -- That people should allowed to be 'Standardized Sexist' like they are in real life? Should we bring back rape while we're at it?
Quote from: Booya on November 25, 2017, 12:05:20 PM
Let's talk Zalanthan science! The way I like to see it is: Yes the sexes undeniably have different body parts, but if you're playing Arm you just have to imagine a world where the biological/chemical makeup of Zalanthans doesn't necessarily always exactly correspond to a common biological makeup of Earth humans. Of course infant-nurturing females and non-infant-nurturing males aren't even universal in RL, nor are all men stronger than all women etc, so it's not even demanding something that's scientifically impossible. So hopefully it's not too hard a leap when you're already imagining a world with giant insects and magick! In what way that affects evolution is still a mystery I guess - but they're managing to survive. In RL hunter-gather-nomadic societies, there's growing evidence women hunted as much, travelled thousands of miles, did the same physical work as men, whilst dealing with periods, pregnancy and lactating. And there was more shared responsibility for child-rearing. Women are ridiculously far from being weak, and we're magnifying that to Zalanthan levels.
Zalanthans accept as normal that women and men have equal capacity to display qualities we're used to attributing to being masculine and feminine, therefore sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, as gender devaluation for certain characteristics just isn't a 'thing'. So while it's fair to RP an individual PC as hating the other sex (if you as a player accept and help display that PC is an abnormal weirdo), lumping gender characteristics into that hate just shouldn't come into play as you'd be trying to rewrite the game's core reality - and perhaps be aware you risk coming across as just trying to bend the entire gameworld to suit your potential, individual, RL biases.
There are so many games where you can find women pigeonholed into stereotypical 'feminine' roles if that's what floats your boat - please don't try and bring it to one of the few fantasy games that treats women and men equally. It's still feels like quite a rare concept in this genre and it can also enhance the enjoyment for a lot of women RPing females when freed from contending with the usual RL biases of their daily life. I know I've always found it an incredibly refreshing, awesome and maybe a groundbreaking aspect of Arm - it's something to be cherished imo.
Agreed 100%. Thanks for the eloquence.
Quote from: Veselka on November 26, 2017, 01:52:13 AM
Probably because you're a dude and don't see how prevalent blatantly sexist atmospheres are almost encouraged in fantasy RPI/RPG games. Slut shaming is real, pretty-little-princessifying every woman you meet is real, offering to help the damsel in distress is real. In ArmageddonMUD, those scenarios are few and far between, and so remotely non-existent in comparison. It's refreshing, and i'm glad it's a rule and foundation stone of the game community.
For example, I really liked playing HarshlandsRPI. But every woman in that game was turned into a pretty little princess, no one should let the woman open the door, no one should let the woman get dirty with mud when it's raining outside...The rabbit hole was deep. There were exceptions, particularly for long-lived Female PCs that could rip ass if you looked at them sideways, but every new Female PC? People would get confused if you were a female Blacksmith, asking why you weren't a trader or chose to be an Inkeeper's Helper instead.
I'm confused what you're arguing for -- That people should allowed to be 'Standardized Sexist' like they are in real life? Should we bring back rape while we're at it?
Lol rape is standard?
"You're a dude so you can't possibly see" is a really lame argument.
My whole point was that women can play male characters and not experience that, or men can play female characters and experience the other side. The fact that we are not ourselves when we are IC is what makes it so odd that, in order for a female player to feel comfortable, her female characters have to be treated a certain way as per the rules. If they were not the rules, male players with female characters would experience the same discrimination.
As far a expected gender roles... isn't surmounting obstacles and being unique a good thing? The female blacksmith might be looked at weird or have some jokes made about her, but would be an awesome, interesting character in contrast to the norm. I liked the lady blacksmith in A Knight's Tale. "Are you a woman or a blacksmith?" "Sometimes I'm both."
In the end, I like more flavors, not less; and eliminating a source of strife makes the world just a little bit blander.
Discrimination based on sex is common in other fantasy MUDs and, well, anything fantasy, in general. I, for one, am glad to see that Arm (attempts to) take a different route. It's an overdone trope, and one littered with needless pitfalls.
There's enough opportunity to be had for conflict without basing it on sex. Arm is flavorful (...full of flavor?) enough without having to rely on sexism.
So, as much as possible, gender and sex shouldn't affect interaction between Zalanthans. That's how the setting works.
This is all well and good, but there lies a vast plain between "roleplaying discrimination against male or female PCs based on the fact that they are male or female" - and "accepting that there ARE differences in males/females and including those differences in your roleplay."
Male and female ARE different in Armageddon. If they weren't, there would be no option to pick one or the other. We'd all be neutral. The sex differences are the "elephant in the room" at this point, and it is jarring, at best, to ignore it.
People are spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to go out of their way to avoid the roleplay of sex differences, when they could be spending time - just roleplaying it out. This is so sad to me. So much time wasted on what really is nothing more than an ooc construct.
The sexes are *equal* because the staff who changed the game from its origins decided that'd be a good idea. That's well and good. But this has turned into a lot more than "the sexes are equal" and is now something akin to "if I roleplay out hormonal mood swings caused by my female character's pregnancy, and Amos reacts to it appropriately, then Amos's player risks character complaints from others who he is expressing his thoughts about it to."
Male sexual organs are right there, and subject to occasional popups at random times. As such there shouldn't be any problem with the occasional dick joke about men who can't keep it in their pants. This isn't a "sexism" thing. It's just making fun of an awkard thing that happens to males, that doesn't happen to females because they simply lack the equipment.
I think this whole "sexes are equal" thing has been blown HUGELY out of proportion and turned into something that people are being required to overthink and worry about.
I think it's mostly just a very small percentage of players that really are bothered by these differences in sexes and they often go out of their ways to look for these "transgression" from other players. I personally don't really care if they are offended because I occasionally play on these differences in sexes and if they want to complain about me to Staff, they can go for it, it doesn't affect my sleep one bit. I'll continue to play on it as it fits my characters and they can just suck it up or have their whole day ruined by one of my characters slipping out a "sexist" joke once in a blue moon.
If you're looking for your little safe room on the internet, a game who's motto is murder, corruption and betrayal might not be the wisest of choices.
It also doesn't mean that I'm going out of -my- way to make these players feel uncomfortable, either. Being a sexist prick just for the sake of it is just as lame.
If IG I hold a door open for someone...I hope it's considered polite, and I'm angling to backstab shortly maybe?
I risked mentioning earlier about WEAKNESS being a real IG issue. Unable to fend for oneself or laziness even creates a PC that needs to be cared for. Male or female never mattered from what I've seen. Being newer by far than many of you awesome players, makes 6 pages of discussion on this matter (valid stuff mind) very unsettling. I am seriously worried about playing anything stereotypical if it causes such a grief along beauty and the beast lines. I do like the understanding that despite physical build, any PC can assume power and station.
At this point I kinda feel like only playing a frail dwarf male or buff elf female.
Quote from: hexus on November 26, 2017, 11:19:00 AM
If IG I hold a door open for someone...I hope it's considered polite, and I'm angling to backstab shortly maybe?
I risked mentioning earlier about WEAKNESS being a real IG issue. Unable to fend for oneself or laziness even creates a PC that needs to be cared for. Male or female never mattered from what I've seen. Being newer by far than many of you awesome players, makes 6 pages of discussion on this matter (valid stuff mind) very unsettling. I am seriously worried about playing anything stereotypical if it causes such a grief along beauty and the beast lines. I do like the understanding that despite physical build, any PC can assume power and station.
At this point I kinda feel like only playing a frail dwarf male or buff elf female.
This is why the "rule" of equality concerns me. It's sending a message to new and veteran players that "yes, you can play the physically weak, blond bimbo big-breasted stereotypical f-me female PC. In fact, EVERYONE can play as many of them as you like, and there could be a majority of weak, blond bimbo big-breasted female f-me PCs in the game. But if any of you call them out on being a blond bimbo, or a weak woman, expect to get a player complaint because weak blond bimbo big-breasted f-me female PCs are normal and equal in every way to every other character (though all OTHER character traits are exempt from this equality). Because here, even if they exist, we're not allowed to treat them as stereotypical. Even if they ARE stereotypical.
Like saying you're not allowed to roleplay interaction with a mekillot as a dangerous thing to do. It IS a dangerous thing for your character to do. Why would you be required to roleplay otherwise?
Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.
:-\ I wanted to make my next pc Donald Trump...Now what am I going to do?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.
Wha? If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female. But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game. The PC in question isn't stupid
because she is female (or slutty
because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes. The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.
if your pc is stupid, or can't take care of themselves, i'm going to make fun of them for it.
male or female. or troglodyte.
you are my amusement. accept it. complain at your own risk.
Don't overthink this rule. It's there to protect things from getting too bad and becoming a misogyny fest. I for one am not going to report you because you said "women, am I right?!" once.
Quote from: nauta on November 26, 2017, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.
Wha? If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female. But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game. The PC in question isn't stupid because she is female (or slutty because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes. The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.
You're thinking too hard again, justifying an ooc construct ic so as to spare the feelings of people who are oversensitive to fantasy roleplay settings.
If someone plays a slutty, stupid, beautiful, kohl-rimmed, blonde bimbo, there is no reason why my character shouldn't be able to say "hey - check out that bimbo." That's what their player is TRYING to portray. I should be allowed to react accordingly with my character. The rules say I am not.
eh? "look at that idiot with the big tits" isn't okay to say?
shit. i'm boned.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
This is all well and good, but there lies a vast plain between "roleplaying discrimination against male or female PCs based on the fact that they are male or female" - and "accepting that there ARE differences in males/females and including those differences in your roleplay."
Male and female ARE different in Armageddon. If they weren't, there would be no option to pick one or the other. We'd all be neutral. The sex differences are the "elephant in the room" at this point, and it is jarring, at best, to ignore it.
The sexes are *equal* because the staff who changed the game from its origins decided that'd be a good idea. That's well and good. But this has turned into a lot more than "the sexes are equal" and is now something akin to "if I roleplay out hormonal mood swings caused by my female character's pregnancy, and Amos reacts to it appropriately, then Amos's player risks character complaints from others who he is expressing his thoughts about it to."
Quote from: Malken on November 26, 2017, 11:06:09 AM
I think it's mostly just a very small percentage of players that really are bothered by these differences in sexes and they often go out of their ways to look for these "transgression" from other players. I personally don't really care if they are offended because I occasionally play on these differences in sexes and if they want to complain about me to Staff, they can go for it, it doesn't affect my sleep one bit. I'll continue to play on it as it fits my characters and they can just suck it up or have their whole day ruined by one of my characters slipping out a "sexist" joke once in a blue moon.
If you're looking for your little safe room on the internet, a game who's motto is murder, corruption and betrayal might not be the wisest of choices.
It also doesn't mean that I'm going out of -my- way to make these players feel uncomfortable, either. Being a sexist prick just for the sake of it is just as lame.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
This is why the "rule" of equality concerns me. It's sending a message to new and veteran players that "yes, you can play the physically weak, blond bimbo big-breasted stereotypical f-me female PC. In fact, EVERYONE can play as many of them as you like, and there could be a majority of weak, blond bimbo big-breasted female f-me PCs in the game. But if any of you call them out on being a blond bimbo, or a weak woman, expect to get a player complaint because weak blond bimbo big-breasted f-me female PCs are normal and equal in every way to every other character (though all OTHER character traits are exempt from this equality). Because here, even if they exist, we're not allowed to treat them as stereotypical. Even if they ARE stereotypical.
Like saying you're not allowed to roleplay interaction with a mekillot as a dangerous thing to do. It IS a dangerous thing for your character to do. Why would you be required to roleplay otherwise?
Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.
Well said, on all counts.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 12:22:28 PM
Quote from: nauta on November 26, 2017, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.
Wha? If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female. But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game. The PC in question isn't stupid because she is female (or slutty because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes. The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.
You're thinking too hard again, justifying an ooc construct ic so as to spare the feelings of people who are oversensitive to fantasy roleplay settings.
If someone plays a slutty, stupid, beautiful, kohl-rimmed, blonde bimbo, there is no reason why my character shouldn't be able to say "hey - check out that bimbo." That's what their player is TRYING to portray. I should be allowed to react accordingly with my character. The rules say I am not.
I think you're the one overthinking this, Lizzie. Of course if someone is acting in that way, you should totally be calling them a dumb prissy bimbo idiot whatever the fuck. But as nauta is pointing out, people shouldn't
assume simply because they are a
woman that they
are a bimbo, blonde, dumb, woman. Actions should speak louder here than gender role assumptions.
I've seen 'slutty' male T'zai Byn characters that are treated just the same as 'slutty' female T'zai Byn characters. They were, in my eyes, treated equally as the 'slut'. The slut shaming was equal. I think that's all people are saying to go for. Not to unequally assume or presume that the female is the 'slut' and the male is the 'stud'.
I agree that men and women are different -- Duh. The rule that is being discussed is not discriminating against women purely because they are a woman. There are plenty of reasons to discriminate against someone, regardless of gender. Are they an elf? Did they come from the Labyrinth? Are they even good at their job? Are they trustworthy, for real or perceived reasons? I just fail to see why gender needs to be an issue that people pursue, one way or the other.
This conversation is bordering on troll bait at this point.
>>Dont like the way a conversation is going.
>>Pffft fake news/troll bait anyway.
My question from earlier still stands:
Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
It screams fragility to me.
I've never once heard a guy in ANY mud without our no-sexism rule whinge about how unfair it is that his male characters get male gender roles thrust upon their characters, or the unjust expectations of their male characters to be strong, or competent fighters.
In the end, this whole thing seems like "Girls need special rules or they will not play with the boys."
Which I think is legitimately sexist, super lame, and untrue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IhNcnLwiw
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
I won't speak for anyone but myself, but the fact that I can play a female in a fantasy setting on an on-line game who does not have to confront and deal with sexism (at least, ostensibly because of the rules even if exceptions happen now and then) is something that is attractive -- it is something I want.
Now, the sexism you are avoiding, is it:
1) "No, you cant be in our hunting party because you are just a weak giiiiiirl." ?
or
2) (if your character was behaving overtly sexual) "Shes like a bitch in heat." ?
If #1... That would be legitimate, if it existed in any game, which i've never seen, because stats are stats and another body is more HP and Damage dealing on our side.
If #2... yeah, that just feeds the RL gender stereotype that women need coddling.
Lol, now that I think about it, there is some irony in the logic of "We need to eliminate sexism IG in order to protect the delicate female players IRL."
Am I seriously wrong in my assumption that women are not so fragile that they need special rules? Wasn't that the whole point of Second-wave Feminism?
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 02:31:55 PM
Am I seriously wrong in my assumption that women are not so fragile that they need special rules? Wasn't that the whole point of Second-wave Feminism?
Perhaps you can go to non-armageddon sub-forum or another forum entirely to discuss second-wave feminism.
The kind of stuff Melkor says proves the point of exactly the reason why the rules need to exist, because otherwise the sheer awfulness of the kind of s*** reddit says of Internet In 2017 would end up overwhelming the culture over time by attrition, and end up another forgettable ridiculous gor fantasy simulator like people have already described other RP muds sounding like...
Quote from: Sorry on November 26, 2017, 02:51:35 PM
The kind of stuff Melkor says proves the point of exactly the reason why the rules need to exist, because otherwise the sheer awfulness of the kind of s*** reddit says of Internet In 2017 would end up overwhelming the culture over time by attrition, and end up another forgettable ridiculous gor fantasy simulator like people have already described other RP muds sounding like...
The kind of stuff Melkor says:
Women are not so fragile they need special rules.
Female players are equal to male players.
Slights against characters are not slights against their players.
The horror.
<edited to add> Reddit is trash.
The rules are because of people like you that just can't help to project their real life biases onto a game fantasy world where those biases are not meant to exist.
"How should gender/sex affect interraction and dialogue in Zalanthas?"
Quote from: Melkor on June 18, 2017, 02:37:07 AM
It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.
Quote from: Sorry on November 26, 2017, 02:58:52 PM
The rules are because of people like you that just can't help to project their real life biases onto a game fantasy world where those biases are not meant to exist.
Ad hominem attacks are cancer. I am shooting for dialectic, but my pointed questions are going unanswered.
Your claim about me is baseless. You would know this if you ever RPed with me.
why are you making assumptions about him as a person based on a question he asked?
Generally when I make a character I try to play about half of them female and half male. In doing so I've played a few sexist characters* and you know what, you're right. It is fun and interesting. But in the half or so times that I've played female characters I've also had to deal with sexism, and the amount of fun I had playing up sexism is absolutely not equivalent to the irritation of dealing with it as a female PC. It's like contracting herpes and being given a piece of chocolate as a consolation prize.
*In order to avoid breaching the game's established culture I only play sexist tribals, and I always generate a non-standard variant of sexism for the character so there's no RL crossover.
OMG! Melkor so sexist!
On a more serious note, I entirely agree with Lizzie on her posts, in that there are differences, otherwise there would be one option for a character at creation: Neutral.
Men have penises and women have vaginas and those two body parts function entirely differently and that is not a bad thing, its what makes the human species even able to continue being a thing that exists.
Lose the penis? (or technically the sperm) No babies, and thus no more humans
Lose the vagina? (or technically the eggs found within) No babies, and thus no more humans.
Both men and women have emotional cycles, a woman, her period for example, making her a grumpy idiot. And a male, just about any time his testosterone builds up by a few more percent making him a grumpy idiot. And if you cant say: Oh look at that guy, they are a grumpy ass because of X, Y and Z then there is something very wrong.
Quote from: Narf on November 26, 2017, 03:14:11 PM
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 02:12:23 AM
Quote from: Veselka on November 26, 2017, 01:52:13 AM
In the end, I like more flavors, not less; and eliminating a source of strife makes the world just a little bit blander.
Generally when I make a character I try to play about half of them female and half male. In doing so I've played a few sexist characters* and you know what, you're right. It is fun and interesting. But in the half or so times that I've played female characters I've also had to deal with sexism, and the amount of fun I had playing up sexism is absolutely not equivalent to the irritation of dealing with it as a female PC. It's like contracting herpes and being given a piece of chocolate as a consolation prize.
*In order to avoid breaching the game's established culture I only play sexist tribals, and I always generate a non-standard variant of sexism for the character so there's no RL crossover.
I didn't say the blander bit, that was also Melkor.
Quote from: Veselka on November 26, 2017, 03:19:08 PM
I didn't say the blander bit, that was also Melkor.
Saw that, fixed it. Sorry about that.
I'm sorry, as a male I feel the need to white-knight females so that I might one day get laid, you know, after I shift my diet from cheetos and mountain dew.
That statement aside, I think it is evident that such rules must exist. I think they are core and need to be considered and enforced more, and people pushing against ancient documentation because look at my balls need to be kept in check lest they let that stupid drama loose in the game.
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
>>Dont like the way a conversation is going.
>>Pffft fake news/troll bait anyway.
My question from earlier still stands:
Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
It screams fragility to me.
I've never once heard a guy in ANY mud without our no-sexism rule whinge about how unfair it is that his male characters get male gender roles thrust upon their characters, or the unjust expectations of their male characters to be strong, or competent fighters.
In the end, this whole thing seems like "Girls need special rules or they will not play with the boys."
Which I think is legitimately sexist, super lame, and untrue.
I hear you that you feel that way. I believe you that you feel that way. You are absolutely allowed to feel that way. However, those are the rules. No one surprised you with those rules. No one came up with them suddenly and sprung them on you in the last 15 years. You have a whole world and internet that that doesn't conform to those rules. My hope is you can learn to reconcile yourself to this thing that you find unfair. And you are allowed to find it unfair.
I've never had a problem following the rule. I've never taken issue with the rule. I've not even argued that the rule should be changed.
I am simply asking a question, and commenting on flawed logic, because I am interested.
so my future character goal of forming a renegade raider gang of exclusively female PCs who loathe men and seek to castrate any they come across is a no-go?
Gender inequality definitely also affects men negatively - it's not just shit for women, nor only seen as a problem by women. (edit: that I happened to say this directly after 650Booger's comment amuses me :P)
Seeing a virtual game world where gender equality is the norm just as a special rule put in to try and protect women's non-existent fragility, or as trying to create a little safe room for delicate sensibilities, or taking it to mean you can't say cunt, twat, dick, cock etc, or that pcs can't call a pc out for unreasonable behaviour, or it's wrong to play a masculine man or a feminine women, or that it's over-thinking gender differences, or whinging because your sexist comments you want to make are against the rules, is flawed to me and missing the point.
The GDB is a vortex of pain. I'm aware I'm contributing to it.
650booger...Hahaha. I know you're kidding, but I think that would be a fun concept, and no, its not allowed :(
Quote from: Booya on November 26, 2017, 05:13:22 PM
Gender inequality definitely also affects men negatively - it's not just shit for women, nor only seen as a problem by women. (edit: that I happened to say this directly after 650Booger's comment amuses me :P)
Seeing a virtual game world where gender equality is the norm just as a special rule put in to try and protect women's non-existent fragility, or as trying to create a little safe room for delicate sensibilities, or taking it to mean you can't say cunt, twat, dick, cock etc, or that pcs can't call a pc out for unreasonable behaviour, or it's wrong to play a masculine man or a feminine women, or that it's over-thinking gender differences, or whinging because your sexist comments you want to make are against the rules, is flawed to me and missing the point.
The GDB is a vortex of pain. I'm aware I'm contributing to it.
So what is the flaw, and what is the point missed?
I'd like to add that they tried to implement the restriction of gendered insults, and only stopped when they faced massive pushback.... so you're wrong there.
Also, a staff member SAID that the thing about arm that they were most proud of was the deliberate action taken to make a safe-space for women, so again... you're wrong there, too.
I'll consent for you to castrate my PC 650Booger.
That said, I'm suddenly reminded of an Oglaf comic strip (don't google that if you're at work)...
Thanks for showing me oglaf. that stuff is hilarious.
I could be mistaken, but I think it's done by a woman. It IS hilarious, and in such a way you'd almost swear you roleplayed with someone like that on Arm before.
I can't even believe this thread is a thing for the 20th time.
There are a decent number of women who were attracted to play Armageddon based upon the no-sexism rule. Even WITH the rules in place, it still happens. Several have voiced clearly that without said rule in place, they'd leave Arm as they don't need their escape to be little more then a continuation of RL nonsense.
With the no-sexism rules in place = Net positive of, for example 15 female players. Net loss = ...? I can't say you're soft because you're a woman?
Without sexism rules = Net loss of likely 10 out of those 15 female players. Net positive = Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?
Quote from: Sticks on November 26, 2017, 05:59:50 PM
Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?
This is getting into my contention that a slight against a character is not a slight against the player. Even if your character was horribly misogynistic to a female character, that has absolutely nothing to do with that character's player... Which brings me to the question I've asked a few times:
QuoteWhy is it that many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Sticks on November 26, 2017, 05:59:50 PM
Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?
This is getting into my contention that a slight against a character is not a slight against the player. Even if your character was horribly misogynistic to a female character, that has absolutely nothing to do with that character's player... Which brings me to the question I've asked a few times:
QuoteWhy is it that many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
Because they don't want to deal with that bullshit in a fantasy game they spend their own time on? How hard is that to understand, fucking jesus christ!
Some of the best RP I've had has come from female players. I know OOC communication is a no-no, but I confirmed it. I'd rather not play in a sausage-fest myself, so whatever makes female players feel more welcome is OK with me, and the rest of you ca s--*censored*.
There are many women who play the game, they are delightful players, they don't always play what you'd expect, most fme aides are me, btw, but I'm glad they're part of the playerbase, and you should be, too.
I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.
Quote from: sleepyhead on November 26, 2017, 06:46:03 PM
I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.
Rolling a female PC hoping for that ERP. Seriously though, you said it, Mansa said it too. This isn't about coddling, it's about providing a place for people to come together and play a game.
I don't really mind the occasional remark here and there about how women are crazy or whatever. I think the rule as a whole works towards a less toxic environment for female chars and I don't have to take issue with every little breach, because for the most part, it stops there.
I've found the playerbase to be pretty great with it, honestly, much better than one might expect. For example, people always say that female chars are easy mode because people give you free shit for no good reason, but I've found not to be the case, really. I recently played a male char that got more free shit than all of my other chars combined, and it was all because of the kind of person he was and how he presented himself. So female chars who present themselves in a certain way may have a similar experience, but it totally can happen to a guy, too! And I haven't had that experience at all when playing rough-and-tumble, independent women. So it really does seem that the pbase is pretty good about basing their treatment of you on criteria other than gender.
Quote from: sleepyhead on November 26, 2017, 06:46:03 PM
I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.
100%.
Quote from: mansa on November 26, 2017, 06:42:50 PM
Because they don't want to deal with that bullshit in a fantasy game they spend their own time on? How hard is that to understand, fucking jesus christ!
Finally, an answer, albeit a
highly emotional one. Cool, lets expound on this.
So, the contention is that in order to attract players, their wants must me accommodated; this is standard in any service industry, though rarely seen in application to one specific group in one unique instance, while shrugging off others. I am fine with servicing the needs of the players. So, if this is the stance taken, why is it that there is a community of hundreds of ex-players, who would return to the game if their needs were met, who's desires go unheeded?
Thats thought 1.
Thought 2 would be something like...
If a particular group is appeased and exempt from experiencing a type of RL "bullshit," why not other groups with their own RL bullshit they would rather not experience?
Btw, Grapes, who said I was not glad to RP with female players? Seems like you're reading what you want to and not what I am actually writing.
I don't know why I keep checking this thread throughout the day. Probably because i'm super curious how deep this rabbit hole goes.
Melkor, even if you win this argument, what do you win? If you want to spank a girl, OOC for consent first, sheesh.
Except you're not winning, you're taking any valid point you might have had and smearing it with feces. Are you just rocking the boat for the sake of it, or is there any real issue you've observed?
Again, you're reading an argument where there is none. I am posing questions, making statements, and shooting for more understanding. There is no goal, here, just fun conversation.
Dialectic is not about winning.
So, elaborate: What valid point may I have had, if I had no smeared it with feces, and what were those feces, specifically?
None, really, if you bring a fight to the table, then you better have your points laid out ahead of time. All you've done is get people pissed at you because you're arguing rules that are older than some players, and key to the setting and lore.
This is not a debate, this is not an argument, this is a conversation. Points of argument are not decided beforehand in a conversation.
I came to the table first by saying the rules must be adhered to, period.
I then asked a question based on a staff member's comments on a radio show.
People who get mad at questions are lacking in emotional maturity.
So, your first statement that I was not glad to play with female players was of your own fabrication, and your statement about my points being ruined by fecal-smearing was just nonsense? If this is wrong, explain.
Quote from: Melkor on November 26, 2017, 07:42:25 PM
This is not a debate, this is not an argument, this is a conversation. Points of argument are not decided beforehand in a conversation.
I came to the table first by saying the rules must be adhered to, period.
I then asked a question based on a staff member's comments on a radio show.
People who get mad at questions are lacking in emotional maturity.
So, your first statement that I was not glad to play with female players was of your own fabrication, and your statement about my points being ruined by fecal-smearing was just nonsense? If this is wrong, explain.
Many of your questions strongly implied (one could argue they outright stated) that any female player that didn't want to deal with sexism in game was weak and fragile /as a player/.
At the very least, people can get mad at that.
If I were you I'd go back and edit the repeated instances of that out of your posts.
You have an obvious, politically bent agenda, so I'm going to ignore you.
EDIT: Not Narf, that was a damn good point.
Back away slowly...
Narf.
Quote from: Melkor
Women are not so fragile they need special rules.
Female players are equal to male players.
Slights against characters are not slights against their players.
In the end, this whole thing seems like "Girls need special rules or they will not play with the boys."
Which I think is legitimately sexist, super lame, and untrue.
No editing needed.
The OP was addressed. What followed was the usual spiral into thinly veiled flames/trolling.
Thread locked.