How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[ExtraPlanar]

oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

Granted.

I'm glad this has finally all been resolved!

Close the thread, mods!

[tapas]

This thread.

[satine]

1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?

A person might be more openly affectionate to a player, but keep in mind that people have "mates" in this world. They don't get "married" and exclusivity is extremely relative. There is nothing in the society here that demands a person on take -one- mate.


2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?

Several of the echos in the gaj are homosexual, and there are many homosexual pairings throughout the world.


3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.

Kill them.

4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?

There are plenty of women in the world of both side, and keep in mind that some of the more demure females are still kicking ass and taking names. Just because someone isn't an overtly vial bitch, doesn't mean they aren't kicking ass.

I feel like there is some strange stereotype between shy/quiet and aggressive/strong

People, both in real life and in the game, are more than that.

[650Booger]

um, I think... um... sorry what was the question? 

there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc.  that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality.  but I'm not sure if that's even the point you are making.

[Grapes]

It's not in the helpfiles, I think it's in the quickstart guide.

[Grogerif]

My characters aren't prejudiced in terms of sex, but  in regardes  to description.  If you are described as soft, I'll think of you as such. Even if it isn't true. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Just act like you feel you should while showing respect to both your fellow players and proper roleplay alike.

If someone says something jarring treat the situation as your character would. If they continue to be jarring simply report to staff and avoid them in the meantime.

[Sorry]

I've seen IC people use the word c*** with much more vehemence and insulting meaning towards people, as if it's a much worse word than d***, sometimes in fact never saying the latter and ALWAYS using the first as the go-to "worst word you can possibly use to describe someone" - though at least I haven't seen people casually throw p***y around to imply weak or useless, it's the same kind of thing really.

Several of the echos in the gaj are homosexual, and there are many homosexual pairings throughout the world.

I've actually seen at least two like that, maybe three even, but always males, I suspect it might be a bit of unconscious bias in the nature of the usual selection of programmers/staff on text based games I don't think I've ever seen anything referencing two women anywhere come to think of it...

3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.

Kill them.

I haven't seen that, but I'd be really disappointed if that isn't being dealt with/wished up to report when it happens, things can't get better if staff don't know who keeps doing it, right?

There are plenty of women in the world of both side, and keep in mind that some of the more demure females are still kicking ass and taking names. Just because someone isn't an overtly vial bitch, doesn't mean they aren't kicking ass.

I feel like there is some strange stereotype between shy/quiet and aggressive/strong

People, both in real life and in the game, are more than that.

I thought this was good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLVwEjr_n8o
Transcript: https://pastebin.com/S4ZLu2XN

[SuchDragonWow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1liVw-fRkTM

[Jihelu]

I didn't know it was impossible to have poker in Australia.

[Melkor]

there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc.  that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality.

Two interesting thoughts to be made, here, and they both stem from the physical difference of being a sex which can birth a child or not. The idea that there are 0 physiological or psychological differences resulting from millennia of child-birthing and rearing is pretty silly, even in a fantasy setting. Evolution is still a thing in Zalanthas, yeah? .....Actually.... IS evolution a thing in Zalanthas? If not, the premise of 0 sexual differences with the exception of genitalia becomes less problematic.

Regarding stats, I think it would be an awesome addition to variety if there /were/ inherent differences between stats and skills between the genders. For instance, a lower strength cap and a higher dex cap for females as opposed to their male counterparts. Or a bump to foraging.

Regarding personality... How could, as I said before, millennia of rearing children not result in a more caring, empathetic sex?

[evilcabbage]

nah. i like there being no stat-skill variation between the genders in this game.

also, this is a harsh world where people sell their babies to borsail so they can eat food, so... you tell me.

[hexus]

Hello everyone. I have PC interest in this quite deeply. I feel the scale is well balanced from what I see IG. I want to be careful with my words here. I have played a few variants on each side, female and male alike. No one has treated any of my characters with seeming OOC influence around their sex really. If I play a frail one that needs to be "cared for", or "weak" I find THAT's the part Zalathans in general separate. And I RP accordingly case by case as best I can. I've used the term "whore" IG myself but assumed it was a job like "grebbing" and not meant ever to assume gender specifics. Is there another neutral term used I should adopt for anyone taking favors for sex among Commoners? I may have missed something but seriously thanks to all of you for your comments

[sleepyhead]

Whore is fine, for both males and females. The only time it would be seen as an insult is if you are calling someone who is a concubine, courtesan, or high-class escort a "whore," because it is a common word that they might see as beneath their station. It'd be kind of like calling a respected concert violinist a "fiddler." Maybe they're cool with that word, or maybe they'll be offended.

[Ender]

there is no difference in the playability of female and male characters, stats and skills etc.  that doesn't mean they have to be gender-neutral in terms of personality.

Two interesting thoughts to be made, here, and they both stem from the physical difference of being a sex which can birth a child or not. The idea that there are 0 physiological or psychological differences resulting from millennia of child-birthing and rearing is pretty silly, even in a fantasy setting. Evolution is still a thing in Zalanthas, yeah? .....Actually.... IS evolution a thing in Zalanthas? If not, the premise of 0 sexual differences with the exception of genitalia becomes less problematic.

Regarding stats, I think it would be an awesome addition to variety if there /were/ inherent differences between stats and skills between the genders. For instance, a lower strength cap and a higher dex cap for females as opposed to their male counterparts. Or a bump to foraging.

Regarding personality... How could, as I said before, millennia of rearing children not result in a more caring, empathetic sex?

The reason is because that's the setting.  The setting of Zalanthas is that men and women are physical equals.  The setting of Zalanthas is that men and women PCs can be as empathetic or un-empathetic as their players deem them to be.

The code supports the setting, not the other way around.  It is intentional that there is no stat differences between men and women in the game.  I think if you want to play a game where the sexes are presented differently, Armageddon isn't and will never be the game for that.

[Hauwke]

Stat differences? Nope.

Slight mental differences due to having to push a baby out your junk? Probably.

To say more, there should be a slight difference in a simple mentallity sense, animals all take care of their young, and so do humans, but the mother carries that child for 9 months, (or 2 or whatever in Zalanthas.) and thus, should probably have a motherly attachment to said person they shoot out their baby cannon.

There is otherwise no discernable difference between the two.

[Ender]

Stat differences? Nope.

Slight mental differences due to having to push a baby out your junk? Probably.

To say more, there should be a slight difference in a simple mentallity sense, animals all take care of their young, and so do humans, but the mother carries that child for 9 months, (or 2 or whatever in Zalanthas.) and thus, should probably have a motherly attachment to said person they shoot out their baby cannon.

There is otherwise no discernable difference between the two.

That is entirely up the player of the mother.  There is not, and will never be, game documentation stating how much a Zalanthan mother should or shouldn't care about their children.  The game documentation will never say "you should have a motherly attachment."

[Hauwke]

Its also a chemical thing inside your head. Are Zalanthans really so different that they have no chemicals in their head telling them to do things? I doubt it.


To be clear, im not saying YOU MUST DO THIS!!!!!

I am saying that its not a terrible idea to follow general human things.

[Namino]

As far as naughty words are concerned, I don't have an opinion. I would imagine given cultural considerations on Zalanthas, calling someone a male genital or female would be equivalently insulting.

However, the evolutionary biologist in me wants to point out that even when physically synonymous, biology dictates massive behavioral differences between males and females, simply because in most species, reproductive investment is not equal. This is also true in humans, as long as women carry the fetus to term. Men can fire and forget. Women have to feed the parasite for a while,  even if you're planning to abandon the offspring with zero post natal care.

This has consequences for mate choice and effective population size (women count more than men for Ne), which has cascading societal implications in a social species like humans and,  I imagine, elves and dwarves, even when physical prowess is standardized across sex. There's a really robust body of research on this, including the reverse when males are the pregnant sex (see Adam Jones, now at U of Idaho, for some cool genomics on it).

Salient to my protests from a biological standpoint, I think roleplay interactions would be significantly less interesting if we treated sexes as identical rather than equal despite their differences. The conflict and misunderstandings between sexes is foundational in fantasy and literature of all stripes and we'd be worse off without it in Arm.

Ultimately, however, it's a game where anuthing can be taken as true if the lore says so, so if it's to be that men and women ought to be synonymous, then that's cool, too.

[Ender]

Its also a chemical thing inside your head. Are Zalanthans really so different that they have no chemicals in their head telling them to do things? I doubt it.


To be clear, im not saying YOU MUST DO THIS!!!!!

I am saying that its not a terrible idea to follow general human things.

Zalanthans aren't real.  There are no chemicals in their heads because they are not real.  You can play your PC however you want because of this.  If you decide your PC has an innate attachment to things, great, if not, great.

[Hauwke]

If they are not real within their own world, why do we bother RPing when someone dies that its upsetting? Why do they have happy days and anger spikes.

They are very real. At least within the world of Zalanthas anyway.

[Ender]

If they are not real within their own world, why do we bother RPing when someone dies that its upsetting? Why do they have happy days and anger spikes.

They are very real. At least within the world of Zalanthas anyway.

Because you as the player made those choices.  They are only as real as you make them.

[valeria]

In the real world, obsidian and bone make poor swords.  Just sayin'.

[Melkor]

In the real world, obsidian and bone make poor swords.  Just sayin'.

Swords are Earthly weapons developed at the end of the Iron Age / beginning of the Bronze age. Their creation/invention was dependent on metal. The game bends Earthly concepts to fit its fantastic parameters.
While we're on the derail about swords.... The obsidian sword has to be the most oocly jarring bit of IG content I've experienced. Anybody who also flintknaps would share this sentiment, I imagine. 

nah. i like there being no stat-skill variation between the genders in this game.

also, this is a harsh world where people sell their babies to borsail so they can eat food, so... you tell me.

Would you say there are more Zalanthan infants sold into slavery than raised to childhood, or less? If more, you're absolutely right. If less, you are incorrect; it would not effect evolutionary development of mothers' compassion.

The code supports the setting, not the other way around.  It is intentional that there is no stat differences between men and women in the game.  I think if you want to play a game where the sexes are presented differently, Armageddon isn't and will never be the game for that.

The code corresponds to the setting, in which there is information to support considering evolutionary development.
I get that the rules are rules, this is why my first post in this thread was:

It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.

My ideas regarding more reasonable gender differences were offered in order to better accommodate the suspension of disbelief, and facilitate easier immersion, in theory.

[Grapes]

Been lurking and reading comments as they pop up, a lot of good thoughts here even if I don't necessarily agree with them all. I happen to agree with Ender. If playing a PC with a few particular consistent traits makes it easier on your immersion, and consequently on the immersion of those interacting with your character, then that's just peachy, however, if someone chooses to play with different traits than your preferred traits, that is an equally valid decision.

Agree with Evil Cabbage as well, to a so-so extent, on the point about selling babies to Borsail. I don't believe that constitutes a lack of empathy, however, simply a tough decision to make. If the child's parent cannot afford to feed themselves, much less the child, selling them into slavery may actually be the most practically selfless thing they could do given the situation. Many slaves live BETTER lives than the average commoner. It's likely a heartbreaking decision to let a child go like that, but, in the long run, is what's best for the child. It's typically criminal scum forced into slavery that end up working jobs like the mines, if I recall correctly, though someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

A mother doesn't necessarily have to bond with a child to raise them, although it helps the child to develop into a more productive member of modern society if they do. Zalanthas is a fucked up enough place where humans would be strong enough to grit their teeth and survive without it, otherwise breeds would be impossible.