How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[azuriolinist]

Discrimination based on sex is common in other fantasy MUDs and, well, anything fantasy, in general. I, for one, am glad to see that Arm (attempts to) take a different route. It's an overdone trope, and one littered with needless pitfalls.

There's enough opportunity to be had for conflict without basing it on sex. Arm is flavorful (...full of flavor?) enough without having to rely on sexism.

So, as much as possible, gender and sex shouldn't affect interaction between Zalanthans. That's how the setting works.

[Lizzie]

This is all well and good, but there lies a vast plain between "roleplaying discrimination against male or female PCs based on the fact that they are male or female" - and "accepting that there ARE differences in males/females and including those differences in your roleplay."

Male and female ARE different in Armageddon. If they weren't, there would be no option to pick one or the other. We'd all be neutral. The sex differences are the "elephant in the room" at this point, and it is jarring, at best, to ignore it.

People are spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to go out of their way to avoid the roleplay of sex differences, when they could be spending time - just roleplaying it out. This is so sad to me. So much time wasted on what really is nothing more than an ooc construct.

The sexes are *equal* because the staff who changed the game from its origins decided that'd be a good idea. That's well and good. But this has turned into a lot more than "the sexes are equal" and is now something akin to "if I roleplay out hormonal mood swings caused by my female character's pregnancy, and Amos reacts to it appropriately, then Amos's player risks character complaints from others who he is expressing his thoughts about it to."

Male sexual organs are right there, and subject to occasional popups at random times. As such there shouldn't be any problem with the occasional dick joke about men who can't keep it in their pants. This isn't a "sexism" thing. It's just making fun of an awkard thing that happens to males, that doesn't happen to females because they simply lack the equipment.

I think this whole "sexes are equal" thing has been blown HUGELY out of proportion and turned into something that people are being required to overthink and worry about.

[Malken]

I think it's mostly just a very small percentage of players that really are bothered by these differences in sexes and they often go out of their ways to look for these "transgression" from other players. I personally don't really care if they are offended because I occasionally play on these differences in sexes and if they want to complain about me to Staff, they can go for it, it doesn't affect my sleep one bit. I'll continue to play on it as it fits my characters and they can just suck it up or have their whole day ruined by one of my characters slipping out a "sexist" joke once in a blue moon.

If you're looking for your little safe room on the internet, a game who's motto is murder, corruption and betrayal might not be the wisest of choices.

It also doesn't mean that I'm going out of -my- way to make these players feel uncomfortable, either. Being a sexist prick just for the sake of it is just as lame.

[hexus]

If IG I hold a door open for someone...I hope it's considered polite, and I'm angling to backstab shortly maybe?

I risked mentioning earlier about WEAKNESS being a real IG issue. Unable to fend for oneself or laziness even creates a PC that needs to be cared for. Male or female never mattered from what I've seen. Being newer by far than many of you awesome players, makes 6 pages of discussion on this matter (valid stuff mind) very unsettling. I am seriously worried about playing anything stereotypical if it causes such a grief along beauty and the beast lines. I do like the understanding that despite physical build, any PC can assume power and station.

At this point I kinda feel like only playing a frail dwarf male or buff elf female.

[Lizzie]

If IG I hold a door open for someone...I hope it's considered polite, and I'm angling to backstab shortly maybe?

I risked mentioning earlier about WEAKNESS being a real IG issue. Unable to fend for oneself or laziness even creates a PC that needs to be cared for. Male or female never mattered from what I've seen. Being newer by far than many of you awesome players, makes 6 pages of discussion on this matter (valid stuff mind) very unsettling. I am seriously worried about playing anything stereotypical if it causes such a grief along beauty and the beast lines. I do like the understanding that despite physical build, any PC can assume power and station.

At this point I kinda feel like only playing a frail dwarf male or buff elf female.

This is why the "rule" of equality concerns me. It's sending a message to new and veteran players that "yes, you can play the physically weak, blond bimbo big-breasted stereotypical f-me female PC. In fact, EVERYONE can play as many of them as you like, and there could be a majority of weak, blond bimbo big-breasted female f-me PCs in the game. But if any of you call them out on being a blond bimbo, or a weak woman, expect to get a player complaint because weak blond bimbo big-breasted f-me female PCs are normal and equal in every way to every other character (though all OTHER character traits are exempt from this equality). Because here, even if they exist, we're not allowed to treat them as stereotypical. Even if they ARE stereotypical.

Like saying you're not allowed to roleplay interaction with a mekillot as a dangerous thing to do. It IS a dangerous thing for your character to do. Why would you be required to roleplay otherwise?

Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.

[chrisdcoulombe]

   I wanted to make my next pc Donald Trump...Now what am I going to do?

[nauta]

Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.

Wha?  If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female.  But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game.  The PC in question isn't stupid because she is female (or slutty because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes.  The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.

[evilcabbage]

if your pc is stupid, or can't take care of themselves, i'm going to make fun of them for it.

male or female. or troglodyte.

you are my amusement. accept it. complain at your own risk.

[sleepyhead]

Don't overthink this rule. It's there to protect things from getting too bad and becoming a misogyny fest. I for one am not going to report you because you said "women, am I right?!" once.

[Lizzie]

Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.

Wha?  If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female.  But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game.  The PC in question isn't stupid because she is female (or slutty because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes.  The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.

You're thinking too hard again, justifying an ooc construct ic so as to spare the feelings of people who are oversensitive to fantasy roleplay settings.

If someone plays a slutty, stupid, beautiful, kohl-rimmed, blonde bimbo, there is no reason why my character shouldn't be able to say "hey - check out that bimbo." That's what their player is TRYING to portray. I should be allowed to react accordingly with my character. The rules say I am not.

[evilcabbage]

eh? "look at that idiot with the big tits" isn't okay to say?

shit. i'm boned.

[Melkor]

This is all well and good, but there lies a vast plain between "roleplaying discrimination against male or female PCs based on the fact that they are male or female" - and "accepting that there ARE differences in males/females and including those differences in your roleplay."

Male and female ARE different in Armageddon. If they weren't, there would be no option to pick one or the other. We'd all be neutral. The sex differences are the "elephant in the room" at this point, and it is jarring, at best, to ignore it.

The sexes are *equal* because the staff who changed the game from its origins decided that'd be a good idea. That's well and good. But this has turned into a lot more than "the sexes are equal" and is now something akin to "if I roleplay out hormonal mood swings caused by my female character's pregnancy, and Amos reacts to it appropriately, then Amos's player risks character complaints from others who he is expressing his thoughts about it to."

I think it's mostly just a very small percentage of players that really are bothered by these differences in sexes and they often go out of their ways to look for these "transgression" from other players. I personally don't really care if they are offended because I occasionally play on these differences in sexes and if they want to complain about me to Staff, they can go for it, it doesn't affect my sleep one bit. I'll continue to play on it as it fits my characters and they can just suck it up or have their whole day ruined by one of my characters slipping out a "sexist" joke once in a blue moon.

If you're looking for your little safe room on the internet, a game who's motto is murder, corruption and betrayal might not be the wisest of choices.

It also doesn't mean that I'm going out of -my- way to make these players feel uncomfortable, either. Being a sexist prick just for the sake of it is just as lame.

This is why the "rule" of equality concerns me. It's sending a message to new and veteran players that "yes, you can play the physically weak, blond bimbo big-breasted stereotypical f-me female PC. In fact, EVERYONE can play as many of them as you like, and there could be a majority of weak, blond bimbo big-breasted female f-me PCs in the game. But if any of you call them out on being a blond bimbo, or a weak woman, expect to get a player complaint because weak blond bimbo big-breasted f-me female PCs are normal and equal in every way to every other character (though all OTHER character traits are exempt from this equality). Because here, even if they exist, we're not allowed to treat them as stereotypical. Even if they ARE stereotypical.

Like saying you're not allowed to roleplay interaction with a mekillot as a dangerous thing to do. It IS a dangerous thing for your character to do. Why would you be required to roleplay otherwise?

Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.

Well said, on all counts.

[Veselka]

Blond bimbo roleplay is valid, but treating blond bimbos as blond bimbos is not valid. I just have a hard time with that.

Wha?  If you mean by a 'bimbo' a stupid PC, then you can play a stupid PC, male or female.  But please avoid, as the help file states, bringing in real world norms into the game.  The PC in question isn't stupid because she is female (or slutty because she is female), but rather she is stupid or slutty because the actions the player takes.  The one thing I would agree with you on is that we shouldn't think too hard on it and focus our RP on other aspects of the fantasy setting.

You're thinking too hard again, justifying an ooc construct ic so as to spare the feelings of people who are oversensitive to fantasy roleplay settings.

If someone plays a slutty, stupid, beautiful, kohl-rimmed, blonde bimbo, there is no reason why my character shouldn't be able to say "hey - check out that bimbo." That's what their player is TRYING to portray. I should be allowed to react accordingly with my character. The rules say I am not.

I think you're the one overthinking this, Lizzie. Of course if someone is acting in that way, you should totally be calling them a dumb prissy bimbo idiot whatever the fuck. But as nauta is pointing out, people shouldn't assume simply because they are a woman that they are a bimbo, blonde, dumb, woman. Actions should speak louder here than gender role assumptions.

I've seen 'slutty' male T'zai Byn characters that are treated just the same as 'slutty' female T'zai Byn characters. They were, in my eyes, treated equally as the 'slut'. The slut shaming was equal. I think that's all people are saying to go for. Not to unequally assume or presume that the female is the 'slut' and the male is the 'stud'.

I agree that men and women are different -- Duh. The rule that is being discussed is not discriminating against women purely because they are a woman. There are plenty of reasons to discriminate against someone, regardless of gender. Are they an elf? Did they come from the Labyrinth? Are they even good at their job? Are they trustworthy, for real or perceived reasons? I just fail to see why gender needs to be an issue that people pursue, one way or the other.

This conversation is bordering on troll bait at this point.

[Melkor]

>>Dont like the way a conversation is going.
>>Pffft fake news/troll bait anyway.

My question from earlier still stands:

Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
It screams fragility to me.

I've never once heard a guy in ANY mud without our no-sexism rule whinge about how unfair it is that his male characters get male gender roles thrust upon their characters, or the unjust expectations of their male characters to be strong, or competent fighters.

In the end, this whole thing seems like "Girls need special rules or they will not play with the boys."

Which I think is legitimately sexist, super lame, and untrue.

[Veselka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IhNcnLwiw

[nauta]

Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but the fact that I can play a female in a fantasy setting on an on-line game who does not have to confront and deal with sexism (at least, ostensibly because of the rules even if exceptions happen now and then) is something that is attractive -- it is something I want.

[Melkor]

Now, the sexism you are avoiding, is it:
1) "No, you cant be in our hunting party because you are just a weak giiiiiirl." ?

or

2) (if your character was behaving overtly sexual) "Shes like a bitch in heat." ?

If #1... That would be legitimate, if it existed in any game, which i've never seen, because stats are stats and another body is more HP and Damage dealing on our side.

If #2... yeah, that just feeds the RL gender stereotype that women need coddling.


Lol, now that I think about it, there is some irony in the logic of "We need to eliminate sexism IG in order to protect the delicate female players IRL."

Am I seriously wrong in my assumption that women are not so fragile that they need special rules? Wasn't that the whole point of Second-wave Feminism?

[nauta]

Am I seriously wrong in my assumption that women are not so fragile that they need special rules? Wasn't that the whole point of Second-wave Feminism?

Perhaps you can go to non-armageddon sub-forum or another forum entirely to discuss second-wave feminism.

[Sorry]

The kind of stuff Melkor says proves the point of exactly the reason why the rules need to exist, because otherwise the sheer awfulness of the kind of s*** reddit says of Internet In 2017 would end up overwhelming the culture over time by attrition, and end up another forgettable ridiculous gor fantasy simulator like people have already described other RP muds sounding like...

[Melkor]

The kind of stuff Melkor says proves the point of exactly the reason why the rules need to exist, because otherwise the sheer awfulness of the kind of s*** reddit says of Internet In 2017 would end up overwhelming the culture over time by attrition, and end up another forgettable ridiculous gor fantasy simulator like people have already described other RP muds sounding like...

The kind of stuff Melkor says:

Women are not so fragile they need special rules.

Female players are equal to male players.

Slights against characters are not slights against their players.


The horror.


<edited to add> Reddit is trash.

[Sorry]

The rules are because of people like you that just can't help to project their real life biases onto a game fantasy world where those biases are not meant to exist.

[Melkor]

"How should gender/sex affect interraction and dialogue in Zalanthas?"

It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.

The rules are because of people like you that just can't help to project their real life biases onto a game fantasy world where those biases are not meant to exist.

Ad hominem attacks are cancer. I am shooting for dialectic, but my pointed questions are going unanswered.

Your claim about me is baseless. You would know this if you ever RPed with me.

[evilcabbage]

why are you making assumptions about him as a person based on a question he asked?

[Narf]

Generally when I make a character I try to play about half of them female and half male. In doing so I've played a few sexist characters* and you know what, you're right. It is fun and interesting. But in the half or so times that I've played female characters I've also had to deal with sexism, and the amount of fun I had playing up sexism is absolutely not equivalent to the irritation of dealing with it as a female PC. It's like contracting herpes and being given a piece of chocolate as a consolation prize.

*In order to avoid breaching the game's established culture I only play sexist tribals, and I always generate a non-standard variant of sexism for the character so there's no RL crossover.

[Hauwke]

OMG! Melkor so sexist!

On a more serious note, I entirely agree with Lizzie on her posts, in that there are differences, otherwise there would be one option for a character at creation: Neutral.

Men have penises and women have vaginas and those two body parts function entirely differently and that is not a bad thing, its what makes the human species even able to continue being a thing that exists.

Lose the penis? (or technically the sperm) No babies, and thus no more humans

Lose the vagina? (or technically the eggs found within) No babies, and thus no more humans.

Both men and women have emotional cycles, a woman, her period for example, making her a grumpy idiot. And a male, just about any time his testosterone builds up by a few more percent making him a grumpy idiot. And if you cant say: Oh look at that guy, they are a grumpy ass because of X, Y and Z then there is something very wrong.