How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[Riev]

Code Select Expand

A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips.  It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front.  The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors.  The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide. 


Feminine cut.

[Akariel]

Code Select Expand

A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips.  It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front.  The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors.  The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide. 


Feminine cut.

Yes. There are a -lot- of items in game, and not all of them follow the guidelines of 'show, don't tell'. Please typo items like this when you see them so we can correct errors like this.

[sleepyhead]

I feel like these kinds of policies are well-intentioned but don't actually accomplish what they're supposed to. Dman's (rest his soul) interpretation was that men and women are exactly, 100% physically identical except for the boobs and nethers. Therefore, women and men had the exact same voices, and were exactly as likely to have beards, and there was no distinguishable difference in facial features, hips, waists, or anything else. That necessarily means if a woman has small breasts that are currently not visible and their junk is not showing at the moment, they are ALWAYS indistinguishable from men, no matter what they otherwise look like.

I don't know if Dman's interpretation is really the decree of the staff, but if it is, it flies in the face of the stated intention for the anti-sexism and gender roles rules, which is that women should feel comfortable playing badass--and maybe "masculine" by Earth standards--women without being berated or questioned all along the line for it. And I 100% get that and appreciate it. However, if we take it too far, we aren't really getting to play women anymore. We are just playing unigendered humanoids with boobs and vaginas. This reduces what makes a woman a woman to cushioning and piping, and it doesn't make me feel like I'm getting an opportunity to play an inspiring woman. My character may as well be a man and could have exactly the same sdesc and mdesc (down to the waspish waist and ample hips) with pronouns switched and references to boobs removed.

And what if I were a cross-dressing man who wanted to play a cross-dressing man in Zalanthas? I literally couldn't. I might appreciate a policy that cross-dressing is accepted, except that isn't the case here. It apparently does not exist anywhere in the world in any form. I don't think that's empowering, either.

So if the intention is to be able to play what you want without feeling stifled by the same prejudices you experience IRL, these policies are not accomplishing that. Taking away discrimination based on certain things is OK, but taking away the existence of something limits creativity and self-expression. It's almost offensive, actually, suggesting that if women and men had different styles or physical characteristics associated with them, discrimination would HAVE to arise. It kind of reeks of justifying RL sexism, where there actually are traits and styles associated with the genders, as if you are saying that somehow sexism is valid as long as men and women look different or wear different things, so you have to keep those differences out of the game to justify no sexism.

[LucildaHunta]

I really don't see what's so wrong with having certain items have male or female cuts to them. A breastplate definitely comes to mind.

This is kind of funny, because I had a similar conversation about male and female clothes irl. The example I used was a male and female style football jersey. They're cut differently and it's a case where it's ok to wear either one if you're a woman. Some women are going to feel more comfy wearing a men's jersey...for reasons. Some women are going to wear a woman's jersey no matter what.

That's how I see zalanthan clothes. You have the choice, but certain things you just wouldn't. A female really doesn't need a cup like nether region protector. Not the same kind of armor down there.

[Akariel]

I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.

[LucildaHunta]

I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.

Oooh, yeah got ya.

[Riev]

So like, instead of having a man-sized hunger, you describe why your hunger deserves the Hungry-Man dinner plan.

Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I've always liked how the Nietzcheans do it in Andromeda. You are not Tyr, some dudes son. You are Tyr Anasazi, out of Victoria by Barbarossa. I like to believe most tribes would do it similarly, where your heritage actually means something. Unless you're Arabet, in which case your dad was just some buff looking Sergeant they thought would make a tuff kid.

[Molten Heart]

Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.

[Riev]

Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.

And with that environment, I can see a rival clan who believes in different values to consider THEIR OWN women to be better. But I just can't come up with a reason to say something like "That's a woman's job" or "What are you, a weak woman/bitch?" or something like that. If you do believe that, you are certainly playing the more rare side of things, like a psychosis developed from having a mother routinely 'allow' herself to be beaten, so you think all women are weak. I don't imagine in Zalanthan society, a man who hates women with that much scorn would last very long.

[whitt]

I think there is a big gap in the difference between genders being equal for all physical capabilities and there being no difference in how those gender are treated. 

This is sexism (belief certain genders should fall into certain societal norms) vs chauvinism (believe one gender is superior to the other).

IMHO, chauvanism should not exist is Zalanthis, but there are certain roles for which one gender is simply going to be selected over the other by pure biology.

For example.  In this post-apocalyptic world, men (far as I know) still do not bear children.  If the biological override to sustain the populace is gone, that's one thing.  If it is not, then by that very fact men and women are not identical.  You don't need a bunch of men to sustain the population.  Men aren't going to be carrying children to term.  Men aren't going to die as a result of the birthing process.  Men can't feed the child after it is born.  In short, men are far more disposable than women.  You just don't need them past a very particular moment in time.

So... who do you send out on the dangerous tasks?  The disposable ones.  Who do you keep around (to a point)?  The ones that can replace all those disposable minions.

Men would be kept around if they were healthy and strong, eg able to better produce offspring that are likewise "useful".
Women would be kept around if they were healthy and strong and able to bear children that were healthy and strong.

Everyone else (and here's your true equality) would be disposable. 

You're a weak, sickly female?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a weak, sickly male?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a strong, healthy male, do your duty and then get out there to do those dangerous tasks that are likely to get someone dead.  Thanks for helping.
You're a strong, healthy female?  Don't want to bear children?  Ok, you're in the same boat as the strong healthy men.  Eg, you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.
You're a strong, healthy male that doesn't want to behave like a strong, healthy male?  Well you're more of a drag than the weak, sickly guy.  Who's gonna feed you?  Get out.
You're a strong, healthy female?  You're able to bear strong healthy children?  You're top of the food chain... Until there's too many children.  Then you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.

So does it make sense for a woman to present as "masculine" sure does.  Says, I'm not here to bear children.  I'm here to break shit and get stuff done.
Does it make sense for a man to present as "feminine"?  Sure, but probably less so.  As your place in society is... what?

Edit: Removed separate topic.

[Armaddict]

I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.

[LucildaHunta]

I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.

I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter. If someone does decide to have a PC that has that kind of bias, don't expect it to be normal or even many people to agree with it.

[Delirium]

I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.

I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter.

Yeah. Women look like women and men look like men, and you all think way too hard about this shit.

Sorry not sorry. You do.

[Refugee]

There's a reason women didn't wear pants until recently.  When you had to squat to take a piss, dresses made sense.  Also gave easy access for sex without having to remove all that garb.  True, notions of modesty developed around these fundamental needs.

Some cultures developed dress-like garb for men, and they tend to be Zalanthan-like, hot arid places.  Do they have access panels or anything?  To stick a hand in or to stick a penis out?  Do these guys lift up their hems in front?  Seems like that would be annoying.

It's my opinion that most cultures develop female garb without much care for comfort and male garb with an eye to comfort.  That's something that probably wouldn't have happened in Zalanthas.

Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny.  Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing.  But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.

[Miradus]

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.

[nauta]

Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny.  Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing.  But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.

Probably a different man.

As long as people realize that Zalanthas isn't Lake Wobegan, I'm pretty happy.

[Refugee]

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.

Men squat to piss?  Seriously?

[TheGoose]

Less splashback.

[ExtraPlanar]

Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.

These are the REAL questions we should be asking

[Refugee]

I've always thought the ability to pee so conveniently was one of the things men got the good end of the stick on.

Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.

These are the REAL questions we should be asking

"If you don't gotta pee you're not drinking enough."
(boot camp flashback)

What a good question.  I bet they pee less.

[Miradus]

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.

Men squat to piss?  Seriously?

Yep.

I think the standing to piss is a western thing. In most of the parts of the Middle East where I was, they would squat over a hole in the ground. Even in bathrooms.

I did not, but mostly because of mechanical reasons. Public restrooms are filthy and I was worried about the hem of my thobe touching the filth. In every other aspect I tried to blend.

[Refugee]

Never too old to learn something new.  I  had no idea.

[Miradus]

There are fatwas issued on how exactly a man should piss. Religious scholars weigh in on whether or not the Prophet would squat to piss or not, and how he would feel about the use of toilet paper.

In one area I was at, we would go eat at this restaurant every day. (We lived on the economy, which in military terms meant we weren't stationed at a base but rather went to an office, wore civilian clothes to fit in, and ate wherever we wanted.)

In the restaurant's bathroom there was a hole in the ground (a pipe) and a bucket of water. For my first week or so there, I was confused about what was what. Nobody explains these things to the fresh off the plane kid. So I pissed in the bucket.

Finally someone tells me the bucket is for washing your hand off after you take a shit. There's no toilet paper, these being Muslims who follow the traditional "wipe with your left hand" ideal.

Equally disgusting, because you can visually see that at least some of the handwashers have been "double dipping" and have left floating evidence.

The final kicker was when I walked in one day to find the restaurant busboy (this kid maybe 9 years old) WASHING THE DISHES in the handwashing shit bucket.

To this day I don't know if it was maliciousness towards westerners (the restaurant was frequented by westerners) or simply the level of "don't give a fuck" that 90% of the Middle East exhibits in their day to day activities. You got hepatitis? That's Allah's will. Food poisoning? Allah's will again.

It's different in big urban areas like Riyadh, where Arabs are actively trying to be more western (mostly ditching the more beautiful traits of their own culture for the ugliest aspects of western culture). There you have more westernized bathrooms with urinals and sinks. Except everyone wants to talk to you while they piss standing up, to show you how modern they are. "Hey, Abi! I'm pissing while standing up! Just like you Americans! Look, you can see my dick!"

Apparently the prohibition on pissing standing up, some religious scholars believe, comes from the immodesty of flopping your pecker out for casual observation.

In Saudi it's worse because they have the Mutawa. The Mutawa are these long beared old men who walk up and down the streets with canes to make sure everyone is obedient to Allah. And they have no compunctions at all about whacking you with a cane if they think you aren't. Restaurants will close during prayer time. When the Adhan sounds you just leave your unfinished food on the table, run down to the mosque, say your prayers, and hustle back to finish your (now cold) falafel or kebob. Except not being a Muslim, I couldn't go to a mosque so I had to just find someplace to hide from the Mutawa or risk being whacked with a cane and causing a big fuss. So I'd leave the restaurant and go hide in this alley behind the place. And in the alley there'd always be these male teenagers who were also hiding out from the Mutawa and smoking cigarettes. They often wouldn't know much English at all but would just throw out random words at you. One kid insisted "Shania Twain" was a proper greeting and said that to me every day for four months.

Ah. Travel. It's so broadening.

[ExtraPlanar]

oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

[Akariel]

oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

Granted.