How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[Veselka]

In the end, I like more flavors, not less; and eliminating a source of strife makes the world just a little bit blander.

Generally when I make a character I try to play about half of them female and half male. In doing so I've played a few sexist characters* and you know what, you're right. It is fun and interesting. But in the half or so times that I've played female characters I've also had to deal with sexism, and the amount of fun I had playing up sexism is absolutely not equivalent to the irritation of dealing with it as a female PC. It's like contracting herpes and being given a piece of chocolate as a consolation prize.

*In order to avoid breaching the game's established culture I only play sexist tribals, and I always generate a non-standard variant of sexism for the character so there's no RL crossover.

I didn't say the blander bit, that was also Melkor.

[Narf]

I didn't say the blander bit, that was also Melkor.

Saw that, fixed it. Sorry about that.

[Grapes]

I'm sorry, as a male I feel the need to white-knight females so that I might one day get laid, you know, after I shift my diet from cheetos and mountain dew.

That statement aside, I think it is evident that such rules must exist. I think they are core and need to be considered and enforced more, and people pushing against ancient documentation because look at my balls need to be kept in check lest they let that stupid drama loose in the game.

[Barzalene]

>>Dont like the way a conversation is going.
>>Pffft fake news/troll bait anyway.

My question from earlier still stands:

Why is it that (According to Cat Rambo) many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?
It screams fragility to me.

I've never once heard a guy in ANY mud without our no-sexism rule whinge about how unfair it is that his male characters get male gender roles thrust upon their characters, or the unjust expectations of their male characters to be strong, or competent fighters.

In the end, this whole thing seems like "Girls need special rules or they will not play with the boys."

Which I think is legitimately sexist, super lame, and untrue.

I hear you that you feel that way. I believe you that you feel that way. You are absolutely allowed to feel that way. However, those are the rules. No one surprised you with those rules. No one came up with them suddenly and sprung them on you in the last 15 years.  You have a whole world and internet that that doesn't conform to those rules. My hope is you can learn to reconcile yourself to this thing that you find unfair. And you are allowed to find it unfair.

[Melkor]

I've never had a problem following the rule. I've never taken issue with the rule.  I've not even argued that the rule should be changed.

I am simply asking a question, and commenting on flawed logic, because I am interested.

[650Booger]

so my future character goal of forming a renegade raider gang of exclusively female PCs who loathe men and seek to castrate any they come across is a no-go?

[Booya]

Gender inequality definitely also affects men negatively - it's not just shit for women, nor only seen as a problem by women.  (edit: that I happened to say this directly after 650Booger's comment amuses me  )

Seeing a virtual game world where gender equality is the norm just as a special rule put in to try and protect women's non-existent fragility, or as trying to create a little safe room for delicate sensibilities, or taking it to mean you can't say cunt, twat, dick, cock etc, or that pcs can't call a pc out for unreasonable behaviour, or it's wrong to play a masculine man or a feminine women, or that it's over-thinking gender differences, or whinging because your sexist comments you want to make are against the rules, is flawed to me and missing the point. 

The GDB is a vortex of pain. I'm aware I'm contributing to it.

[Melkor]

650booger...Hahaha. I know you're kidding, but I think that would be a fun concept, and no, its not allowed

Gender inequality definitely also affects men negatively - it's not just shit for women, nor only seen as a problem by women.  (edit: that I happened to say this directly after 650Booger's comment amuses me  )

Seeing a virtual game world where gender equality is the norm just as a special rule put in to try and protect women's non-existent fragility, or as trying to create a little safe room for delicate sensibilities, or taking it to mean you can't say cunt, twat, dick, cock etc, or that pcs can't call a pc out for unreasonable behaviour, or it's wrong to play a masculine man or a feminine women, or that it's over-thinking gender differences, or whinging because your sexist comments you want to make are against the rules, is flawed to me and missing the point. 

The GDB is a vortex of pain. I'm aware I'm contributing to it.

So what is the flaw, and what is the point missed?

I'd like to add that they tried to implement the restriction of gendered insults, and only stopped when they faced massive pushback.... so you're wrong there.

Also, a staff member SAID that the thing about arm that they were most proud of was the deliberate action taken to make a safe-space for women, so again... you're wrong there, too.

[Grapes]

I'll consent for you to castrate my PC 650Booger.

That said, I'm suddenly reminded of an Oglaf comic strip (don't google that if you're at work)...

[Melkor]

Thanks for showing me oglaf. that stuff is hilarious.

[Grapes]

I could be mistaken, but I think it's done by a woman. It IS hilarious, and in such a way you'd almost swear you roleplayed with someone like that on Arm before.

[Sticks]

I can't even believe this thread is a thing for the 20th time.

There are a decent number of women who were attracted to play Armageddon based upon the no-sexism rule. Even WITH the rules in place, it still happens. Several have voiced clearly that without said rule in place, they'd leave Arm as they don't need their escape to be little more then a continuation of RL nonsense.


With the no-sexism rules in place = Net positive of, for example 15 female players. Net loss = ...? I can't say you're soft because you're a woman?

Without sexism rules = Net loss of likely 10 out of those 15 female players. Net positive = Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?

[Melkor]

Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?

This is getting into my contention that a slight against a character is not a slight against the player. Even if your character was horribly misogynistic to a female character, that has absolutely nothing to do with that character's player... Which brings me to the question I've asked a few times:

Why is it that many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?

[mansa]

Hey, you can say what you want now! Except unless it's another dude playing a woman, the chances of you seeing any females in game after said change is next to nil and thus, who... would you be sexist to?

This is getting into my contention that a slight against a character is not a slight against the player. Even if your character was horribly misogynistic to a female character, that has absolutely nothing to do with that character's player... Which brings me to the question I've asked a few times:

Why is it that many female players will not play unless they feel "comfortable," and that comfort is derived from rules safeguarding specifically their female characters from gender stereotypes?

Because they don't want to deal with that bullshit in a fantasy game they spend their own time on?  How hard is that to understand, fucking jesus christ!

[Grapes]

Some of the best RP I've had has come from female players. I know OOC communication is a no-no, but I confirmed it. I'd rather not play in a sausage-fest myself, so whatever makes female players feel more welcome is OK with me, and the rest of you ca s--*censored*.

There are many women who play the game, they are delightful players, they don't always play what you'd expect, most fme aides are me, btw, but I'm glad they're part of the playerbase, and you should be, too.

[sleepyhead]

I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.

[Grapes]

I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.

Rolling a female PC hoping for that ERP. Seriously though, you said it, Mansa said it too. This isn't about coddling, it's about providing a place for people to come together and play a game.

[sleepyhead]

I don't really mind the occasional remark here and there about how women are crazy or whatever. I think the rule as a whole works towards a less toxic environment for female chars and I don't have to take issue with every little breach, because for the most part, it stops there.

I've found the playerbase to be pretty great with it, honestly, much better than one might expect. For example, people always say that female chars are easy mode because people give you free shit for no good reason, but I've found not to be the case, really. I recently played a male char that got more free shit than all of my other chars combined, and it was all because of the kind of person he was and how he presented himself. So female chars who present themselves in a certain way may have a similar experience, but it totally can happen to a guy, too! And I haven't had that experience at all when playing rough-and-tumble, independent women. So it really does seem that the pbase is pretty good about basing their treatment of you on criteria other than gender.

[Is Friday]

I'm a female player that plays mostly male PCs. The choice between male and female shouldn't mean the choice between being taken seriously and not being taken seriously, though.

100%.

[Melkor]

Because they don't want to deal with that bullshit in a fantasy game they spend their own time on?  How hard is that to understand, fucking jesus christ!

Finally, an answer, albeit a highly emotional one. Cool, lets expound on this.

So, the contention is that in order to attract players, their wants must me accommodated; this is standard in any service industry, though rarely seen in application to one specific group in one unique instance, while shrugging off others. I am fine with servicing the needs of the players. So, if this is the stance taken, why is it that there is a community of hundreds of ex-players, who would return to the game if their needs were met, who's desires go unheeded?

Thats thought 1.

Thought 2 would be something like...
If a particular group is appeased and exempt from experiencing a type of RL "bullshit," why not other groups with their own RL bullshit they would rather not experience?

Btw, Grapes, who said I was not glad to RP with female players? Seems like you're reading what you want to and not what I am actually writing.

[Veselka]

I don't know why I keep checking this thread throughout the day. Probably because i'm super curious how deep this rabbit hole goes.

[Grapes]

Melkor, even if you win this argument, what do you win? If you want to spank a girl, OOC for consent first, sheesh.

Except you're not winning, you're taking any valid point you might have had and smearing it with feces. Are you just rocking the boat for the sake of it, or is there any real issue you've observed?

[Melkor]

Again, you're reading an argument where there is none. I am posing questions, making statements, and shooting for more understanding. There is no goal, here, just fun conversation.

Dialectic is not about winning.

So, elaborate: What valid point may I have had, if I had no smeared it with feces, and what were those feces, specifically?

[Grapes]

None, really, if you bring a fight to the table, then you better have your points laid out ahead of time. All you've done is get people pissed at you because you're arguing rules that are older than some players, and key to the setting and lore.

[Melkor]

This is not a debate, this is not an argument, this is a conversation. Points of argument are not decided beforehand in a conversation.

I came to the table first by saying the rules must be adhered to, period.
I then asked a question based on a staff member's comments on a radio show.
People who get mad at questions are lacking in emotional maturity.

So, your first statement that I was not glad to play with female players was of your own fabrication, and your statement about my points being ruined by fecal-smearing was just nonsense? If this is wrong, explain.