Armageddon General Discussion Board

Over the past few years, there have been progressive changes in the desert-elf roles available to the players.

• There was a time when a player could app a d-elf role, and pick a coded (active OR inactive tribe) or a virtual tribe of their own imagination.
• A while later, the option to pick virtual tribes was removed, and a player had to pick a coded tribe.
• Then came the change where all d-elf magicker apps had to be pre-approved.
• Now, all d-elf apps have to be pre-approved, AND, they have to compulsorily be in the 2 tribes that are open for play.

I am sure Staff has reasons for restricting desert-elven roles. Having said that, and without going into the nitty-gritty of the why's and wherefores, could we possibly have some more options opened (either active or virtual) up for desert-elven tribes/clans? And more importantly, could non-magicker roles be made available as direct (not pre-approved) once again please?

If there is an issue with monitoring and managing multiple desert-elven tribes by Staff members, perhaps something along the lines of a disclaimer would help - i.e. Please note - if you apply for a role in any of the virtual tribes (not monitored by Staff as per the GDB status), then you will get no Staff support for your role whatsoever - you have been warned.

If there is an issue with too many PCs apping for a single tribe (and thereby creating an imbalance), perhaps Staff could put a cap on the number of active players in each tribe - and I don't say this lightly, coz I am sure this would be a difficult and cumbersome parameter to monitor in itself.

It's just that previously, apping for d-elves was such a breeze, that a player with the requisite Karma could just app for a role on the fly. And there were considerably more options too. Now it seems that the entire desert-elven population of players must be content with playing in a small selection of roles within a very restricted selection of tribes.

The unique and extremely varied and active inter-tribal dynamic in the desert-elf population has always been something that has been Arm's solid plus point and definitely a part of the game's heritage that we shouldn't dilute.

Current Status of desert-elf tribes/clans:

Akei'Ta Var - Closed
Blackwing Tribe - Closed
Dune Stalkers - Closed
Sand Jakhals - Closed
Soh Lanah Kah - Open
Sun Runners - Open
Siltwinds - Closed (Doesn't exist anymore - not even virtually)

I always assumed it was a lack of interest in delf characters that lead to the reduction.  If the two available clans became filled to the brim with players, I'd imagine they might open more tribes.

Blackwing hasn't been open for players in many years; back when it was open to players it was prone to abuse due to special coded privileges given the clan members.
The Dune Stalkers had other reasons to be closed; potentially this is a find out IC thing.
The Red Fangs were eliminated IC.
The Siltwinds were eliminated IC.
The Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.
The Akei'Ta Var are isolated, and even isolated from the other desert elf tribes in the game.

We do not allow anyone to play desert elf roles except in tribes that are codedly supported and currently open.   Previously we would have people play desert elf roles that were part of a virtual tribe.  They never communicated with staff.  They essentially were solo elves.  Some of them would coordinate with each other to play in a player-created tribe.  This was a lot of work to manage and was not a fair system, nor did it properly enforce a tribal mentality among said elves, nor was there any oversight by staff in a lot of cases.  We moved to only allowing coded tribes after some point in the mid 2000's.  After that we still had quite a few desert elf tribes scattered here and there, isolating the playerbase.  Eventually (and this was clarified for other clans as well) we restricted that to only tribes that were "open."

We also have a fairly low cap on how many PC magickers should exist in a tribe (desert elf or no).  This is partially for balance, but partially to reinforce the realism of the gameworld.  There should be a reasonable proportion of magickers to mundanes in any given tribe.  We are not going to change that policy.  We do have a cap on how many PCs can play in either of the available desert elf tribes.  To reinforce that cap, we do have to have desert elf characters "pre-approved" in advance so that we know how many are actively playing.  We are not going to change that policy, either.

Are the two tribes currently "full to bursting?"  Not really, no.  From time to time they are full and we occasionally turn people away.  We think they are at the level they should be right now, at least.

If the idea is to have a lot of variety among desert elf tribes, and to allow anyone with 1 karma to play a desert elf whenever they want to, and allow anyone with any karma above 2 karma to make desert elf magickers whenever they want to, we are not fulfilling that ideal.  This isn't the vision of the staff.

If the idea is to promote interaction between desert elf tribes as well as the rest of the Known World when it makes sense (and also to restrict the amount of isolated roles that exist in the game), we are fulfilling that ideal.  This is closer to the staff's vision on this.

There may be room for another tribe, but that is neither here nor there--it will still involve an overall expected cap from staff on PC tribe numbers and (if applicable) an overall expected cap on PC magickers.  We take a very careful look nowadays before opening any particular clan, calling for roles, and the like.

I think that the current tribes are too close to one another. We need another tribe that operates in Vrun Driath or even better, salt flats and has reasonable freedom to travel, trade and raid.

I'm also curious why don't you open Blackwing and maybe make it a pre-app tribe only, to offset their coded perks. Which, I hope don't amount to much outside a certain area.

oh, also this

QuoteThe Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

Quote from: Nyr on April 30, 2013, 02:01:59 PM
We do not allow anyone to play desert elf roles except in tribes that are codedly supported and currently open.   Previously we would have people play desert elf roles that were part of a virtual tribe.  They never communicated with staff.  They essentially were solo elves.  Some of them would coordinate with each other to play in a player-created tribe.  This was a lot of work to manage and was not a fair system, nor did it properly enforce a tribal mentality among said elves, nor was there any oversight by staff in a lot of cases.  We moved to only allowing coded tribes after some point in the mid 2000's.  After that we still had quite a few desert elf tribes scattered here and there, isolating the playerbase.  Eventually (and this was clarified for other clans as well) we restricted that to only tribes that were "open."

We also have a fairly low cap on how many PC magickers should exist in a tribe (desert elf or no).  This is partially for balance, but partially to reinforce the realism of the gameworld.  There should be a reasonable proportion of magickers to mundanes in any given tribe.  We are not going to change that policy.  We do have a cap on how many PCs can play in either of the available desert elf tribes.  To reinforce that cap, we do have to have desert elf characters "pre-approved" in advance so that we know how many are actively playing.  We are not going to change that policy, either.

Thank you Nyr, for the detailed post. It helps us as players understand where Staff is coming from, on this issue.

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

Whenever the room for another coded tribe DOES open up, could Staff please consider an option which would accept apps for the magick guilds that the SR does not, so that the entire spectrum of magickal guilds are once again open for desert-elven roleplay? That's all that can be said about the matter, without going into IC specifics I guess.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 30, 2013, 02:15:29 PM
oh, also this

QuoteThe Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 30, 2013, 02:12:58 PM
I'm also curious why don't you open Blackwing and maybe make it a pre-app tribe only, to offset their coded perks. Which, I hope don't amount to much outside a certain area.

Long answer:  it's not just a matter of coded perks and abuse.  Suffice it to say that Blackwing is best left virtual until such a time that staff deems it appropriate to make it available for players with the right modifications.

Short answer:  'cause it's not simple.

Quote from: Incognito on April 30, 2013, 02:22:48 PM
Whenever the room for another coded tribe DOES open up, could Staff please consider an option which would accept apps for the magick guilds that the SR does not, so that the entire spectrum of magickal guilds are once again open for desert-elven roleplay? That's all that can be said about the matter, without going into IC specifics I guess.

We have taken that into account in the past and will take it into account for the future, never fear.  :)

It would be cool to use the other coded one that has never been used.   Tweaks could be made to the magickal side of things conform to Incognito's idea and add in something unique even.

Quote from: Twilight on April 30, 2013, 02:35:31 PM
It would be cool to use the other coded one that has never been used.   Tweaks could be made to the magickal side of things conform to Incognito's idea and add in something unique even.

Which one?

Nyr, I sent an email instead of posting here.  Not sure what is public.

Quote from: Nyr on April 30, 2013, 02:27:27 PM

Quote from: spicemustflow on April 30, 2013, 02:15:29 PM
oh, also this

QuoteThe Sand Jakhals do not have an actual coded camp.

isn't really a problem (imo of course). Fangs didn't have the coded camp and were awesome to play. The making of the camp was even better.

The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

As tacky as it sounds, couldn't a lot of the coding used for the now-extinct Red Fangs simply be copy/pasted, in a sense, and adjusted slightly to fit the Sand Jakhals?

AmandaGreatHouse has an incredible character generator - So just mix-mash a few desert elves and stuff...

God I wish I had the knowledge to be a coder :(

Sure, it's possible.  It's not really a project for right now, however!

To me, a problem is that the two open tribes represent 2 rather narrow extremes of thought/tribal life etc etc.

Now maybe it is staffs method of making sure only people with a certain very narrow mindset of play for delves gets them...And I suppose if that is the way they want it...more power to you.

But really, the rest of the game world would benefit from there being 1-2 more. (BTW, I don't care if there is or isn't delf mages...in fact, if I was pushed, I would have to say I prefer none.)

Creating a new tribe is not all that hard, least till the coded side, but even that should not be that hard. Docs and such, Meh, there are many talented players who would jump at the chance to be in on writing up in depth docs to a new tribe or two. Simply put out a call, say This is the kind of mindset we want for this tribe...who wants to help?

I think that the game could use an actual trading tribe...basically blackwing lite.

And an actual nomad tribe, not Red fang raidery elves, or SLK xenophobe raiders...maybe even more entertainers and thief types...like REAL world gypsies. I'd help on those docs.

Hell, they don't even have to all be open at the same time, if staff thinks that 2 tribes is enough for the game, rotate. Give others, who like to play delves a chance to play.

Though I think there is room for at least 3 at a time and that way when you rotate you need only close 1 to open the next.

There will always be a disconnect between what players want and what staff wants.  In between the two is what staff is willing to work on, but currently is unable to do (due to existing work, focus on other areas, etc).  Even with player assistance there is a bottleneck of staff work that is not insignificant, despite any claims that it is not all that hard to code up a tribe and give it documentation.  (I know you weren't saying it is a cakewalk, but we do apply a lot more review to tribal documentation these days--you might notice that in any of the revamped tribes out there.)

It's safe to say that we're in between the two on this (hence me saying it's possible but it's not really a project for right now).  You can find out the rest IC when appropriate.  If we need folks to help out we definitely will call for it!

Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

Quote from: BleakOne on April 30, 2013, 06:59:55 PM
Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

I think a lot of people have a problem with them basically being in their own little world with little incentive to interact with others outside of it. Adding a new tribe in a different area I think woould be really cool.

Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 30, 2013, 07:54:35 PM
Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

I think we had something very similar. It did not end happily.  :)

If there was one d-elf tribe I would want to see back again, it would be ATV, I would app one in a heartbeat if they became available again.  So much fun, such an interesting tribe, and an amazing location.  But the two available now are totally acceptable and I'm ok with that remaining the same, better increased interaction than not.

Quote from: Incognito on April 30, 2013, 02:22:48 PM

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

I understand that this is the same for human tribes, none of them allow (usually) the full range of magick guilds. Is there some reason in elven psychology I'm not understanding that requires a tribe available supporting all magick types? Dwarf don't even have a single tribal option anymore, not even for mundanes.

Sure, you can create (for example) a human nilazi/nomad in regular character creation as some sort of tribal exile. It might take a special application to have a similar desert elf even though you have the karma for it. I figure that's alright since a desert elf has more psychological bent towards tribe and family than a human (and I'm sure a human nilazi/nomad application in the regular character creation queue will receive a detailed review). (Also feel free to replace Nilazi with any of the other /restricted/ magick guilds - for either elf or human)

All that is just for tribal (DE/Human/Dwarf) magickers. As to the rest of the things discussed in the thread I am happy either way. The two tribes open now are great. Would also be great to have ATV or Sand Jakhals around sometime.

Does a progression of elven role availability make sense to anyone else but me, if this is the prescribed route for desert elves?

Isn't tribe dependency rule number one for both races?

Edit: This sounds like a new thread, sorry. Please move if deemed appropriate.

Quote from: armandhammer on May 01, 2013, 01:33:38 AM
Does a progression of elven role availability make sense to anyone else but me, if this is the prescribed route for desert elves?

If by progression you mean have a tiered karma structure for roles (i.e. Blackwing = Karma 4, SunRunners = Karma 1, SLK Karma 2, etc) then that sounds like a great way for everybody to be happy and add back some options.

Quote from: Incognito on April 30, 2013, 01:35:01 PM

• Now, all d-elf apps have to be pre-approved, AND, they have to compulsorily be in the 2 tribes that are open for play.

I'm not trying to focus on this and ignore the rest of your post, Incognito, because I think you brought up some good and valid points. However, I just wanted to make sure everybody knows that this is not the case.

You don't need special staff pre-approval to play a desert elf as long as you have one karma! However, if the tribe you want to app into already has seven or eight PCs in it, we will reject the app and ask you to check in later with the request tool.

This isn't done because we want to limit the amount of desert elves in the game so much as because we need to take PC population vs. virtual population into account for the desert elf political landscape. Everyone who's played a d-elf knows that Pah politics can be just as intricate and touchy as the most bloodthirsty city kind, and this is difficult to portray properly in the game when player populations in one hand get out of control.

For example, the Soh Lanah Kah are actually a fairly small tribe. The Blackwing are massive. Let's say we had SLK and Blackwing open at the same time, and for whatever reason, SLK were way more popular with PCs than Blackwing at that time.

If SLK had 14 active PCs, half of which were incredibly long lived and powerful, and the Blackwing had three, that could create some unrealistic RP that would require a lot of staff intervention. If, say, the SLK characters started harassing the Blackwing ones or raiding them or sneaking into the Blackwing Outpost and murdering NPCs, that would be awkward. If the virtual world were being properly represented, the larger tribes would absolutely curbstomp the smaller ones, especially if their behaviour was egregious and offensive enough.

By limiting the amount of PCs that each tribe can have, we can better keep an eye on making sure that there aren't major power disparities that contradict the documentation, which unfortunately is something that has happened even recently in the past.

I didn't mean to write this as a big ol' diatribe or as an argument against what Incognito is saying, but I hope that folks can see where we're coming from in regards to limiting the amount of desert elves in each tribe at any given time.

And again, just to reiterate: you don't need to be pre-approved by staff to play your desert elf unless the following apply:

• You do not have one karma and wish to special app one.
• You want to play a desert elf magicker.
• You want some aspect of your app to differ from normal, i.e. extended subguild, extra skills, starting as a Ranna, etc.
• You put an app in the queue and were rejected because there's already a million dudes in your wanted tribe. Even then, you don't have to go to the request tool--you can just chuck your app back in the queue a few days or a week or whatever later and we'll approve it if there's space.

The game of balancing what clans to open and what clans to close is like a minigame unto itself within Armageddon, and back before I was on staff, I used to cry bullshit pretty much every time a beloved clan of mine was closed. However, now that I've seen what a careful balancing act it is on the other side of the curtain, I have a lot more appreciation for just how difficult these decisions are to make.

Feel free to keep making suggestions, because we do listen, but any changes will have to be considered carefully before they're acted upon because we don't want to end up in a situation where we've got four desert elf tribes open and each one only has one or two people. We also don't want a situation where we have four desert elf tribes open and three have one person and the fourth has twenty. ;)

Quote from: Nyr on April 30, 2013, 02:27:27 PM
The Red Fangs did indeed have a coded camp and also eventually had a script set up to outfit them similar to other tribes in-game.  In contrast, there are no Sand Jakhal NPCs, no items for them, nothing.  That is what I mean by "coded camp," not just "a place where you can point while in the Place of Kings in order to get codedly tribed up and outfitted."  You'd need a place to start with your other tribe members.  All of that would have to be built.  That really seems unlikely.

There was definitely a time when the Red Fangs were starting in Blackwing outpost without receiving any of the clan specific items apart from two ritual scars (which you had to wish for).

What I'm saying is: a tribe doesn't have to be pointable, to have specific gear or whatever, just give us one page of documentation, one or two high up NPCs (who'll virtually live in a virtual camp somewhere) point us to Blackwing and the fun starts. It worked for the Fangs long before Tive's tent was added to the world. It also contributed to the general underdog feeling that the old Fangs had.

I love X-D's idea of a free roaming gypsy-elf tribe.

Desert elf roles are probably my favorite in the game after the Labyrinth, and I love the Soh to death, but the nature of their documentation and the fact that there is only one other active elven tribe in the Pah really puts a cap on the sort of extensive, cool plots you can get into. There are only so many times you can hash out some sort of peace treaty or disagreement about outsiders plot with each new band of elven PCs before it gets mundane and tiring.

I know staff have their own idea of how the game should be and I've said this a few times already, but I really think some sort of raiding elven tribe that could travel or operated out of the Red Desert/flats would add a lot to the world. Giving them the ability to travel about the Known would give the Pah another way to interact with the rest of the world and it would add some sort of player presence to these deserted areas.

Hell, any tribe/clan operating out of the Red Desert would be neat. For such an iconic part of the game world, that place feels so barren and lifeless (and not in the good way).

Quote from: Bushranger on May 01, 2013, 12:25:41 AM

Quote from: Incognito on April 30, 2013, 02:22:48 PM

My basis for writing the initial post stems from the fact that the SLK is a non-magicker tribe, and the SR (usually) only has some restricted magick guilds allowed.

I understand that this is the same for human tribes, none of them allow (usually) the full range of magick guilds. Is there some reason in elven psychology I'm not understanding that requires a tribe available supporting all magick types? Dwarf don't even have a single tribal option anymore, not even for mundanes.

Sure, you can create (for example) a human nilazi/nomad in regular character creation as some sort of tribal exile. It might take a special application to have a similar desert elf even though you have the karma for it. I figure that's alright since a desert elf has more psychological bent towards tribe and family than a human (and I'm sure a human nilazi/nomad application in the regular character creation queue will receive a detailed review). (Also feel free to replace Nilazi with any of the other /restricted/ magick guilds - for either elf or human)

All that is just for tribal (DE/Human/Dwarf) magickers. As to the rest of the things discussed in the thread I am happy either way. The two tribes open now are great. Would also be great to have ATV or Sand Jakhals around sometime.

There's no elven psychology that would support a tribe that accepts all magick types. Hence the request to open up atleast one more tribe which would accept those magic guilds that the existing (currently open for play) elven tribe(s) actively reject. This would allow players to play the entire range of magickal guilds in different d-elf tribes.

As things stand, if you app'ed certain magick guilds as a d-elf role in the 2 tribes that are currently available, your app would most likely get rejected because your role is not allowed by the documentation/background of the currently-open tribe(s). The only way to remedy this situation, and have all the magick guilds available for d-elf roleplay, would be to open up another tribe/clan, which accepts those guilds which the current ones do not.

I'm sorry if I sound vague or long-winded, but unfortunately it can't be spelt out more clearly without going into IC info.

(Staff is already aware of this issue (as you can note from Nyr's post), and one can only wait and watch until the lacuna gets remedied.)

As a sidenote - the original spread of the d-elf tribes and their individual acceptance preferences for various magickal guilds was awesome, coz each tribe accepted certain guilds, and that made things extremely interesting in the Pah. Also this was possibly why certain tribes were hated more than others....

Finally, as far as human and dwarven tribes are concerned - you're right - they have their own restrictions too - however, you can always make unclanned humans or dwarves of any magickal guild you prefer. However, as things stand, this is not the case with desert elves. You can ONLY play a few magickal guilds right now, simply because you cannot app unclanned or virtually-tribed d-elf roles.

Quote from: Incognito on May 02, 2013, 06:39:41 AM
There's no elven psychology that would support a tribe that accepts all magick types. Hence the request to open up atleast one more tribe which would accept those magic guilds that the existing (currently open for play) elven tribe(s) actively reject. This would allow players to play the entire range of magickal guilds in different d-elf tribes.

As things stand, if you app'ed certain magick guilds as a d-elf role in the 2 tribes that are currently available, your app would most likely get rejected because your role is not allowed by the documentation/background of the currently-open tribe(s). The only way to remedy this situation, and have all the magick guilds available for d-elf roleplay, would be to open up another tribe/clan, which accepts those guilds which the current ones do not.

I'm sorry if I sound vague or long-winded, but unfortunately it can't be spelt out more clearly without going into IC info.

(Staff is already aware of this issue (as you can note from Nyr's post), and one can only wait and watch until the lacuna gets remedied.)

As a sidenote - the original spread of the d-elf tribes and their individual acceptance preferences for various magickal guilds was awesome, coz each tribe accepted certain guilds, and that made things extremely interesting in the Pah. Also this was possibly why certain tribes were hated more than others....

Finally, as far as human and dwarven tribes are concerned - you're right - they have their own restrictions too - however, you can always make unclanned humans or dwarves of any magickal guild you prefer. However, as things stand, this is not the case with desert elves. You can ONLY play a few magickal guilds right now, simply because you cannot app unclanned or virtually-tribed d-elf roles.

I wasn't there myself, but I'm fairly certain the Elan Pah tribe was closed with good reason.

I'll definetly be rolling up a dwarven tribal sometime now, though.

Elan Pah wasn't a tribe. It was a coded clan with members from different tribes. It was "closed" due to IC reasons and changes to the gameworld.

I don't think a Red Desert elf raiding tribe would be a good idea. It would just be an excuse for some people to go on a PK frenzy.

I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

Quote from: Maso on May 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

+1

Don't worry. We're here, waiting and watching.

Quote from: Dune Stalker on May 02, 2013, 09:01:02 PM
Don't worry. We're here, waiting and watching.

I'll be watching those huge boobs right back.

Quote from: Scarecrow on May 02, 2013, 06:50:57 PM
I don't think a Red Desert elf raiding tribe would be a good idea. It would just be an excuse for some people to go on a PK frenzy.

Delf staff are pretty good about holding players to a standard when it comes to PKing characters. I don't see why this would be any different.

I think the Soh and SR represent a fairly good mix of available delfie play.

I think the Sun Runners are really the cream of the crop as to what a desert elf should be - or elf in general.

They travel, trade, steal, raid, war, get rowdy, blow shit up and con as much or more than any elf group has in what may be the history of the game. They've got the grit, the power and they're as hot-tempered and dangerous as anyone. If you think the Sun Runners are simply glowy, orgytastic drunk traders you could be wrong - they have a warrior culture that has simply been a little under represented.

I've harassed our poor and amicable staff about increasing Sun Runner player population.

If you want something a little different - the Soh are out there.

I've played in the Blackwing and we were even more isolated than the Soh and the Sun Runners - and to the history I'm aware of - more violent, powerful and xenophobe than either.

Personally - and probably a different topic - I would like to see the Tablelands, Luirs and the Tan Muark play areas better integrated into the rest of active play.

It would be cool to see d-elves from different parts of the worlds with different cultures from their distant cousins and that trade and interact (with hostility most likely) with a different part of the world (like Cenyr or Red Storm). Or maybe a tribe that actively travels from place to place with a lightweight camp.

<3 Sun Runners.

Quote from: Maso on May 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

Because we obviously don't trust the players now...

I'd be interested in seeing a more positive swing in these 'what sucks about ____ threads', which most players seem capable of keeping to.

We trust you guys. Honest -- We do.

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 03, 2013, 03:32:27 AM

Quote from: Maso on May 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

Because we obviously don't trust the players now...

I'd be interested in seeing a more positive swing in these 'what sucks about ____ threads', which most players seem capable of keeping to.

We trust you guys. Honest -- We do.

Never trust a playa.

I wouldn't trust me as far as I could throw me.

You can only trust me after a series of carefully designed tests.

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 03, 2013, 03:32:27 AM
We trust you guys. Honest -- We do.

First mistake... Last mistake...

Next mistake, no more mistake..

*wails on guitar*

There's been mention of Blackwing, Jakhals, Fangs, Stalkers, ATV......I'll jump in and mention Tar'Kroh - in case there's that slim chance in hell....

Quote from: Incognito on May 03, 2013, 01:50:40 PM
.I'll jump in and mention Tar'Kroh - in case there's that slim chance in hell....

:'(

Quote from: Incognito on May 03, 2013, 01:50:40 PM
There's been mention of Blackwing, Jakhals, Fangs, Stalkers, ATV......I'll jump in and mention Tar'Kroh - in case there's that slim chance in hell....

If you really want to get old school, what about the Two Moons?

Where can I read more about tar kroh and two moons? And other such extinct tribes

Quote from: Scarecrow on May 02, 2013, 06:50:57 PM
I don't think a Red Desert elf raiding tribe would be a good idea. It would just be an excuse for some people to go on a PK frenzy.

Icly it'd probably meet the same fate as the Red Fangs.


Also it'd be nice to be able to play a desert elf magicker with a coded tribe other than the limited choices that are currently supported.

Quote from: HavokBlue on May 09, 2013, 04:36:21 AM

Quote from: Incognito on May 03, 2013, 01:50:40 PM
There's been mention of Blackwing, Jakhals, Fangs, Stalkers, ATV......I'll jump in and mention Tar'Kroh - in case there's that slim chance in hell....

If you really want to get old school, what about the Two Moons?

It'd be nice if the Two Moons had some documentation.  They'd make a good candidate for a southern coded DE tribe.

There used to be player documentation for anyone playing in them.  Given their age, what a tribe was when they were implemented, and what a tribe is now, is drastically different.

Tar'Kroh, haha!
I still have a couple of the docs (Official RP guide and Role Playing Logs).
My contributions were heavily influenced by readings about the ancient Celts.
These docs belong in an Arm museum.. ;D

Quote from: Molten Heart on May 09, 2013, 03:38:28 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on May 09, 2013, 04:36:21 AM

Quote from: Incognito on May 03, 2013, 01:50:40 PM
There's been mention of Blackwing, Jakhals, Fangs, Stalkers, ATV......I'll jump in and mention Tar'Kroh - in case there's that slim chance in hell....

If you really want to get old school, what about the Two Moons?

It'd be nice if the Two Moons had some documentation.  They'd make a good candidate for a southern coded DE tribe.

I didn't know they were even ever actually part of the game. I read a post on the old discussion board about plans to implement some coded delf tribes including the Sun Runners and the Two Moons, but the Two Moons were kind of mothballed with the SR left to fill their intended role or something.

RIP dead elf clans :(

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 30, 2013, 07:54:35 PM

Quote from: BleakOne on April 30, 2013, 06:59:55 PM
Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

I think a lot of people have a problem with them basically being in their own little world with little incentive to interact with others outside of it. Adding a new tribe in a different area I think woould be really cool.

Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

There are a lot of roles and clans in Arm with as many or more restrictions as there are for d-elves. That is true even for Soh.  Just think about it and you could probably name a few easily. If you really look at it, the two tribes have a VERY large area to roam in and Runners can go pretty much where ever they like in the known.

The placement of the two tribes is close. But that is a good thing. It ensures interaction, plots and politics. This is made even better by the proximity of the two human tribal clans currently open.  And the location of the camps ensures that even the Soh will have regular and exciting interaction with outsiders from all over the known.  That is, if you play it right. 

As to plots it is not as rare as you might think for Soh to be involved in plots connected to one of the two large cities and certainly Luir's.  This can happen while your PC stays totally in conformity with the docs. It's not an everyday occurrence, but it does happen.  Sun Runners are more frequently involved in these plots, and might even hatch a couple themselves.

Sometimes it seems that people only want to play d elves so that they can raid. Raiding is fun. But realistically, if there was a tribe that existed that regularly raided for reasons other than protecting their territory, that tribe would get wiped out.  Wait..that sounds familiar.

If staff were to open another tribe, I would hope it would be the ATV.  But honestly I think the choices we have now are both extremely playable and lots of fun. If you have not played a delf, then you have missed out on a very cool experience. What are you waiting for?

Were you responding to me there? Because you quoted me, but it doesn't really have much to do with what I said.

Actually it does. You said people have a problem with them being in their own little world. Their world is not so little, and they have incentive and opportunity to get involved beyond it.

But you are right in that I was responding to some other posts as well. Just did not want to quote them all.

There's been numerous posts about the pros and cons of opening up more d-elf tribes vis-a-vis increase in raiding.

This isn't what all d-elf tribes do, and it's wrong to believe that d-elves just add to the raiding population of Zalanthas.

D-elves are intelligent, they hunt and gather stuff, they make some awesome tribal goods and they trade, in goods and information. If dealt with due respect and proper protocol, 9 out of 10 d-elves will be open to peaceful interraction with outsiders.

Granted, once in a while, some PCs or even some clans decide to take up raiding as a full-time job. That is their own interpretation of things, and not what most d-elf clan docs suggest. Also, there might be some IC reasons why certain d-elves or their entire clans are raiding in the first place (they need money for something big, or, they have cause for enimity with some merchant house, or some clan in particular etc etc).

One of the primary reasons some d-elf pcs or clans do take up raiding or hurting non-d-elves is because they see outsiders coming in the the Abi'li Pah (which they claim as home territory) and mass hunting game there. Desert elves by default, hunt to live, and not live to hunt - simply because they cannot afford to deplete the source(s) of their food/clothing/trade/livelyhood. It is very natural for them to feel "anger" towards outsiders, who try and disturb this "balance" - and  cause them to "raid" or "mindlessly attack" non-desert-elves who they come across near their territory.

I just thought I'd set the record straight as far as the misconception goes - about all desert elves being raiders, or, that adding more d-elf tribes will only add to raiding in the game.

On an entirely different note, please also bear in mind that the existence of *some* raiders out there - only adds to the fun of the game - and adds more possiblities for RP and interractions between players as well. Why else would someone need to hire the Byn as an escort, or pay some guards in-game to help them make a journey across the sands?

The more experienced d-elf raiders also make it a point to not "strip" their victims blind. I've seen d-elves take an item or two off their victims, or, ask for a specific but limited number of coins to spare someone's life, just so that the victim isn't left 'sid'less and weaponless in the middle of nowhere.

Quote from: Hot_Dancer on May 02, 2013, 10:22:21 PM
I think the Soh and SR represent a fairly good mix of available delfie play.

I think the Sun Runners are really the cream of the crop as to what a desert elf should be - or elf in general.

I would beg to differ on the former, and agree whole-heartedly with the latter.

We definitely need atleast one more d-elf tribe which takes in "darker" characters, even if it is small in terms of virtual population. And by "darker" characters I dont mean raiders.

QuoteWhat are you waiting for?

The ATV    ;)

I agree whole-heartedly with the need for another clan.

I love the ATV, I really do... but it's DEFINITELY not the one. I played a couple characters in the ATV the last year it was open, and I can sympathize with the reasons it was (probably) closed. Not only are they isolationists, but they're isolationists far flung from the rest of the d-elves. I remember our tribe struggling to get involved in the plots of Sun Runners several times, but ultimately having it fall flat on its face partially because they don't give a shit what happens beyond their little area of the world. And the worst part about the tribe is the wide range of acceptable classes that everyone seems to be pushing for. *Disappears in a volley of flying rotten petoch fruits.*  It's cool in theory, but in practice you just have a desert elf tribe without. one. single. ranger. (I'm guilty of perpetrating this as well, but I deeply regret it looking back.)

I would love to see Black Wing open, but that seems like it's the LAST thing that is going to happen. I sense it's more than just a 'trust issue', since clans like Kurac, AOD, and Legion offer the same power and more to 0 karma roles.

Personally, I'm a player who is highly susceptible to wander lust, so naturally I LOVE d-elves.... but I HATE the tribes available right now. Passionately.

I'm on team X-D gypsy-elves 100%. They don't even have to be raiders. I'd love to see restless, roaming con-artists sewing shady deals from Red Storm to Tuluk. And in the spirit of things, it would even make sense to play them campless like we did back in the day. If we need docs - we've got a highly and creative playerbase willing to do the heavy lifting. If we need extra coding ... well, I have no idea what MUDs are written in, but I'm an application developer by trade and I'll volunteer to learn and do that work, if it comes to that.

The tribes we currently have open are great tribes, but I feel that most players are ready for something new. How many years has it been since we've had more than 2 options?

I feel the same as Jack's Opinion.

Disclaimer - I've played a couple of Sun Runners, a Soh, and a Red Fang. I've also played a human character who interacted with Dune Stalkers and Silt Winds and the whole plethora of the elven tribes right before most of them were shut down/destroyed-IC.

Although it didn't end well, I LOVED playing a Red Fang. It was one of my #1 favorite experiences with Arm. We -rarely- PKed anyone - yes, it did happen, but raids were more on the order of "if you give me your inix, I'll let you live." Or "ooh pretty sword. Give it to me and you can go on your way." Or "hm.you cast an interesting spell, friend. Cast it for me every time I see you, and my tribe won't tell the Sun Runners we ever saw you." I have had this experience as a "victim" exactly ONCE since the Red Fangs were destroyed. I miss it. I miss it from the aggressor side, and I miss it from the victim side.

I don't feel any "need" to ask for a resurrection of the Red Fangs, or even for a tribe that focuses on raiding. But I do feel that the variety has been SO limited for desert elves, for so long, that it feels stale, used, done before, and we're ready for a change. Not to limit it more (so I'm not asking to close down ANOTHER tribe) - but to expand. The gypsy tribe seems great.

There is no other low-karma character option that is presently SO limited. Yes, muls are VERY limited. But they're not low-karma options, and you have to *want* to play a limited character, AND have the karma - to play it. So muls don't count. Special apps don't count. Sponsored roles don't count. I'm talking about just ordinary players with ordinary karma choices who want to play desert elves, which is a low-karma option.

In all other low-karma options, the choices are nearly limitless. You can play in an existing coded tribe or you can play in a non-coded made-up tribe of your own. You can play a city person or a non-city person. You can play in a clan or not (even city elves can play in the Byn and Kurac). Low-ranking mages (viv/ruk) can hide their magicks and get clanned and take their risks, or not. They can get gemmed, or attempt to avoid it. They can be from tribes, or from cities, or from one of the villages or trading centers instead.

Desert elves are the only low-karma options that have such restrictions. You can pick one of two coded tribes, each with its own very specific, and restrictive culture and habits. That's it. A third option would open the possibilities for both players who want to play desert elves, and for players who want to play other things who interact with desert elves.

The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

Maybe these elves would bring -different- coded options to the desert-elf-collective than the two current tribes bring. Maybe they'd have all the mundane options, plus..one or two non-mundane options that might or might not currently exist in the desert elf cache of options. Limited - definitely limited. Last thing we need is a whole cadre of elkrosian elves running rampant over the known. But right now, some of us already know that if we meet up with a desert elf, he will -not- be "this or that" or "the other thing," because we already know they're not allowed by staff to exist as PCs.

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

Even if it's a temporary thing and it closes up after a year - I think that general spark of a non-virtual gypsy tribe of elves, that *do* exist in the game world in a virtual sense, would be good for everyone.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 17, 2013, 03:19:50 AM
I'm on team X-D gypsy-elves 100%.

Me too.

I am not sure if there is an existing option to create an unclanned d-elf. I have never tried, and from reading this thread it seems like it's not possible.

IMHO allowing unclanned, indie d-elves would be a better option than creating a new clan, or opening up an old one. If players were into it, they could come together and make their own clan, which would live and die based on its popularity with the players. People could come and go. You could do your own thing or create/join a group.

Another option I am not sure about is rebellion. I believe you can codedly leave a tribe or clan. I am not sure what staff would do though, and I expect the clan you left would hunt you down and kill you.

I believe that flies in the face of the documentation.

Quote from: Norcal on May 17, 2013, 11:53:29 AM
I am not sure if there is an existing option to create an unclanned d-elf. I have never tried, and from reading this thread it seems like it's not possible.

IMHO allowing unclanned, indie d-elves would be a better option than creating a new clan, or opening up an old one. If players were into it, they could come together and make their own clan, which would live and die based on its popularity with the players. People could come and go. You could do your own thing or create/join a group.

Another option I am not sure about is rebellion. I believe you can codedly leave a tribe or clan. I am not sure what staff would do though, and I expect the clan you left would hunt you down and kill you.

D-elves live and die for their tribes. And to me, playing a d-elf is interesting because of that tribal mindset. Unclanned d-elves would just go against a good portion of that. As would rebellion.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 17, 2013, 08:25:05 AM
The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

...

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

This was a similar argument that came up in a recent "Open the Mesa Gith" (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42773.0.html) thread. I happen to agree that PC vs. PC conflict is more fun than NPC vs. PC conflict. However, I think that we players have the means of bringing that to the game IC'ly without needing the staff to do it for us by creating new clans out of nothing.

As I posted in that thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42773.msg662186.html#msg662186):

Quote from: Red Ranger
I happen to like the two open d-elf clans.  Furthermore, if a player currently wants to delve into an isolated and violent Tablelands culture, they can already make a d-elf in one of those two open clans and try to shift the clan's outlook to being more stridently violent through IC means.

More generally, if we players want more "harshness" and "danger" in the wilds, and we prefer to have our PCs die to other PCs rather than to NPCs, I posit that we players have the means necessary to make this happen ourselves.  Make a PC and make it happen.  It won't be easy.  You'll need to do your homework, you'll need to build up your own fighty PC base, you'll need to build up your own political base wherever you call home, you might want to find your own powerful patron, and you'll need some luck.  But it can be done (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7919.msg77314.html#msg77314).

Be the change, etc. etc.

Go be the pot-stirring change.

I wish I had one karma.  :'(

Quote from: Zerero on May 17, 2013, 02:00:11 PM
I wish I had one karma.  :'(

karma 1 is easiest to acquire, just ask for notes and if you didn't like try to hack the server in the last year you'll get it

or you could spec app for d-elf, almost guaranteed to work

Quote from: Red Ranger on May 17, 2013, 01:54:02 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on May 17, 2013, 08:25:05 AM
The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

...

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

This was a similar argument that came up in a recent "Open the Mesa Gith" (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42773.0.html) thread. I happen to agree that PC vs. PC conflict is more fun than NPC vs. PC conflict. However, I think that we players have the means of bringing that to the game IC'ly without needing the staff to do it for us by creating new clans out of nothing.

As I posted in that thread (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42773.msg662186.html#msg662186):

Quote from: Red Ranger
I happen to like the two open d-elf clans.  Furthermore, if a player currently wants to delve into an isolated and violent Tablelands culture, they can already make a d-elf in one of those two open clans and try to shift the clan's outlook to being more stridently violent through IC means.

More generally, if we players want more "harshness" and "danger" in the wilds, and we prefer to have our PCs die to other PCs rather than to NPCs, I posit that we players have the means necessary to make this happen ourselves.  Make a PC and make it happen.  It won't be easy.  You'll need to do your homework, you'll need to build up your own fighty PC base, you'll need to build up your own political base wherever you call home, you might want to find your own powerful patron, and you'll need some luck.  But it can be done (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7919.msg77314.html#msg77314).

Be the change, etc. etc.

Go be the pot-stirring change.

I think you're missing the point where the sentiment (er perhaps the most common one in the thread) is for another tribe to be available desert-elf roles, rather than a PC role geared to "stir the pot" or "be the change"... Currently you can't make your own desert-elf tribe and the two options, while very different from each (and in some ways, completely awesome) other are fairly narrow.

Quote from: Dakota on May 17, 2013, 02:55:54 PM

Quote from: Red Ranger on May 17, 2013, 01:54:02 PM
stuff in response to a narrow point about a perceived lack of PC vs. PC conflict outside of the cities

I think you're missing the point where the sentiment (er perhaps the most common one in the thread) is for another tribe to be available desert-elf roles, rather than a PC role geared to "stir the pot" or "be the change"... Currently you can't make your own desert-elf tribe and the two options, while very different from each (and in some ways, completely awesome) other are fairly narrow.

Thanks!  But you're wrong.  I didn't miss "the" point.  I addressed a point in my post (the point in the text that I explicitly quoted), but it wasn't your point.

I'll now address your point.

You write that you want another playable desert elf clan because the current two are "fairly narrow." I'm not sure what that means, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. You don't have to agree with me, but I happen to like the two current playable desert elf clans, as I've noted previously (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42773.msg662186.html#msg662186).

So opinions are good! But just sharing your opinion that you don't like the currently available clans doesn't seem to me like it will be a persuasive argument for the addition of a third desert elf clan. Also, just nonspecifically claiming that the current two clans are "fairly narrow" is unlikely to be persuasive. Narrow how? What vital experience is missing that a third playable desert elf clan would add? Keep in mind that the OP's point about missing opportunities to play certain desert elven magicker guilds has already been addressed (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45411.msg749251.html#msg749251).

Lizzie does a good job making an explicit case in her post for how a new desert elf clan could add to the game (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45411.msg753234.html#msg753234). I happen to disagree with her on the necessity of adding a third desert elf clan in order to address that problem she identifies (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,45411.msg753291.html#msg753291). One could plausibly also argue that a third desert elf clan made up purely of Nilazis could add the missing Nilazi presence in the game, or that a third desert elf clan focused purely on nonstop mudsex would add much needed mudsex to the game. Maybe the game needs more Nilazis and more mudsex! But a new desert elf clan wouldn't be necessary to add either more Nilazis or more mudsex to the game because players have it in their power to add both already, without the imms needing to add in a new desert elf clan.

So what is the game missing that a third playable desert elf clan needs to be added?

Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

The docs list the Sun Runners as the most extroverted of all desert elf tribes. I believe that barring one or two roles within the tribe, most all Sun Runners are prone to wandering.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 17, 2013, 05:22:58 PM
Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

Quote from: Zerero on May 17, 2013, 06:14:29 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 17, 2013, 05:22:58 PM
Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

Right. The SR's are the most widely run sharps in the Known. They even dance by the Silt Sea.

Quote from: ShaLeah on May 17, 2013, 06:18:49 PM

Quote from: Zerero on May 17, 2013, 06:14:29 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 17, 2013, 05:22:58 PM
Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

Right. The SR's are the most widely run sharps in the Known. They even dance by the Silt Sea.

That is only because all the other coded "wide-run sharps" were closed down. This also makes them the second-least-run sharps - next to the Soh.

As for be the change - the change many of us want to see (which is why this thread exists) is a third desert elf tribe option. We are told we are not -allowed- to have this option. There -are- other desert elf tribes. But we are not -allowed- to play in any of them. We are not -allowed- to play in a virtual tribe that we make up. We are not -allowed- to create a new desert elf tribe, and (I agree with this one) - we are not -allowed- to be tribeless desert elves. And so - "be the change" is just cliche that has absolutely no meaning to this particular subject.

Lizzie has the right of it.

But let us put it a different way, This has nothing at all to do with like or dislike of a tribe or if we think they are good or bad...in fact, if you think they are good then you would not want to try and change the outlook of the tribe anyway.

What it does have to do with is personal fit and the "something different" Option. For me it is personal fit...Neither of the currently open tribes are a fit to me...though one more then another.

So, for me there is no delf option. And even if there was, just bouncing back and forth between just those two rather narrow options...Bleh. Also, they both have the same (basic) location. Sorta like playing the rinth ALL the time, This time east side, next time west...etc etc....But oh hey, there is a third option, you can play a shifty in nak proper. So, the "something different" Option comes into play.

Hell, I would find one of the two open tribes a better fit if there was a third active tribe...even better if said tribe is not located right next door.

My best times playing a delf was when there was at least 5 active documented tribes...greater dynamics of interaction...I think 3 open tribes would be plenty though.

Quote from: Scarecrow on May 03, 2013, 04:53:05 AM

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 03, 2013, 03:32:27 AM

Quote from: Maso on May 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

Because we obviously don't trust the players now...

I'd be interested in seeing a more positive swing in these 'what sucks about ____ threads', which most players seem capable of keeping to.

We trust you guys. Honest -- We do.

Never trust a playa.

+1...

You all persuaded me to play a d-elf sometime, as the next third character.

Is there any reason there could not be a tribe that comprised of both City Elf and Desert Elf?

For the last few years I've been looking into the elves of Red Storm. I seem to recall Mekeda once told me that there was a tribe in Red Storm that made up the elves you see in the Sand Lord's militia, but in a recent request I was told by staff that if they ever did have a name it has since been lost. After reading this thread I thought it would be great if we could open up a few role types with one clan! Let's call them GYPSY SAND ELF for the purposes of this post.

The GYPSY SAND ELF tribe consists of two main families much like the Jaxa Pah and A'kai Sjir - one of these families are desert elf who like to roam widely about the Known as entertainers and thieves (like X-D's proposed Gypsy Elves) but know they have a place to call home in Red Storm if trouble is looking for them. The other family are city elf who stick closer to home in Red Storm (and sometimes Allanak since it is within running distance for a city elf) with most of the npc militia elf of Red Storm coming from this family. Both families are entertainers and thieves with a strong familiarity with spice, many of the youngsters starting out their lives sifting for spice (or perhaps more accurately entertaining the spice sifters while swindling from what they've sifted). By forming the one tribe the wandering DE family can distribute the tribes spice and other trade goods far and wide then return with gossip, information and trade goods from afar while the CE family maintains relationships within Red Storm.

Bam! Third DE clan not located in the tablelands (but with no reason not to visit if they want) + CE clan for Red Storm (and an explanation of the elves in the village militia) + Southern elf tribe that doesn't live in the dirty 'rinth!

Just need to find an Admin who is interested in overseeing such a new clan and a better name and some proper documentation!

Elves are going to take over red storm! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

;)

Bushranger, my man!

I think that is a nifty idea.

Going to have to give a hearty fuck-yeah to that idea. I love the idea of red storm. I love the idea of an elf tribe in Red Storm. I'd probably store my current pc for it.

Wow Bushranger that is definitely a change I'd love to BE.

I'd even offer to write up docs, backgrounds for any of the NPCs that don't already have them, descriptions for any of the rooms that the tribe would call their headquarters. Maybe they even have a 3-room area in the alleys and a respectful, but cautious agreement with [redacted] that each stays out of the others' part of the alleys. Oh and those three rooms could be: an entry yard with sparring circle, one supply/crafting hut, and one communal living hut with an alcove for whatever elders/chief/staff-animated NPC is necessary.

That's just IF there were to be a coded "camp" for the tribe. Not necessary, but if the staff said to go for it, I'd volunteer to write it.

+1 to Bushranger's post.

I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves. (Which is probably one of the main reason why d-elves PCs were being forced to pick a tribe in the end)

Quote from: Malken on May 18, 2013, 12:04:57 PM
I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves.

Yup.

edit:

A clan of desert elves that were "officially" allowed to hang out in a city would get shut down so fast, most nerds wouldn't even have a chance to feel butthurt. The delf PCs would run around on power trips thinking they're special and actually matter in the scheme of things, when really the clan would have very little power within the game world. They'd get crushed pretty quickly.

I think said clan could have d-elf and c-elf roles that they were expected to fulfill, depending on which class they picked.

I think the best way to fix elven roleplay is to remove the weird distinction between city elves and desert elves, and return a bit more to the source material's vision of them. That's not going to happen, though.

Making all races besides human 1 karma that aren't already on the karma chart??

EDIT: I'd turn in my karma for this. Breeds could stay 0 karma. Fuxk breeds.

Quote from: Malken on May 18, 2013, 12:04:57 PM
I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves. (Which is probably one of the main reason why d-elves PCs were being forced to pick a tribe in the end)

Eh, probably not. It's not like the clan's staff would just let an infinite number of delfs through. Jaxa Pah & Akai Sjir should give staff an idea of whether or not the celf family side of things would be sustainable. And just like the other celf clans, you'd have a limited number of family slots and then require the clan to recruit independent elves and breeds once they're used up. The only difference is a couple of those family slots are for desert elves.

I like the idea mainly because it would put a clan in Red Storm, though. :)

I think I'm fine with the desert elves available now. You can play unconventional characters within the realms of the documents, easily. If you don't think your character idea is possible, you could just ask the staff beforehand. And, well, there are IC relations between all sort of elven clans - though I won't go into specifics.

I think as they are now, the clans are fantastic. Sometimes you just have to be a bit imaginative, especially if you want to play something different.

I like that Southern c-elves are all dirty 'rinthers. They've filled a niche. Although, it does leave you wondering about the all the elves in RS and any other elves wandering around Southside Allanak...like non-rinth elves do exist...so that's a lot of 'tribe-of-one' elves. More than seems reasonable.

I would love to see another d-elf clan. One further removed from the two we currently have, but I wouldn't mind if it was reopening and old clan or coming up with a new, further away one. From an outside perspective there is very little distinction between them. From an inside perspective (when playing), for me personally...there is only one I would want to play in...which means there is only one option for d-elf for me...and options would be nice. I'm just not all that interested in SR...though I could be convinced to try it.

I don't agree that any proposed celf/delf clan in red storm would end up being only delfs. I think you'd see a portion of celves. It might be one celf for every 2-3 delfs, but if you get 10 people in there that's a decent spread.

I think this because there are certain roles within this clan where a celf would be very useful, feel appreciated, and have a good time, not feeling too inferior to their delf tribemates.

This is just a wordy +1 to Bushranger's post.

Some expansion on Bushranger's concept, to provide more rounded "usefulness" to the c-elf possibilities:

The tribe's elders/chief/council/tribunal/whatever watches the kids as they grow into their own personalities and physiology. Those who show more of an inclination to run, who seem hardier when they're out in the open than when they're in/near the village, are assigned to learning how to better do exactly that - travelling far and wide. And those who seem to thrive when they're closer to the walls, would be trained for a life nearer the walls, which would include being sent as runners between Storm and Allanak.

So the desert-elf side would be primarily the wanderers and travellers, running beyond Allanak, to other areas of the world, and would -not- serve their tribe as spice sifters or crafters. The ones who stay near the village would be the crafters, the spice sifters, and grebbers of the general area, watching for trouble to the village, informing their elders (of which maybe some are actual soldiers of the Sand Lord's army or have some kind of representation among them). Any traders who aren't suited for distances, would be relegated to trading between the village and Allanak, and would not go beyond or step on the toes of the ones who -are- suited for distance. And vice-versa: the ones who -are- suited for distance, would not run trade between Allanak and Red Storm, because their legs serve the tribe better at longer distances.

Crafters who can move long distances would not craft for the tribe. They might craft components (if applicable), or for their own personal use, or - for example - to break logs/stones/etc. down into smaller pieces for easier transport.

The tribe itself is not an official "sandlord sanctioned" tribe - so they'd still be affected by the crim-code. Except in their own limited rooms, IF the staff chooses to assign any to them.

I get nervous when I see ideas like this being discussed very openly on the GDB... so many possibilities. I hope they come to fruition. However, I fear of what might happen if too many details are put on the GDB.

What I'm trying to say is, though Lizzie's and Bushranger's suggestions are really good, that there are a lot of ways the basic goal of expanding the delf/celf PC representation without negative impacts on existing tribes can be achieved. Certainly, any one thoughtful post here could become reality.

I would rather that whatever ends up being made wasn't something I read word for word on the GDB a year before it became real. I fully support these efforts and ideas; I stayed out of this thread initially because I had little hope for success in the beginnings of the discussion. Now though, I see something great being played out here, but having been through enough interactions with staff to know that this is a two-way street, I am afraid of how detailed, hopeful posts here will be perceived.
..Just my 2 sids.

Quote from: Is Friday on May 18, 2013, 12:08:08 PM
A clan of desert elves that were "officially" allowed to hang out in a city would get shut down so fast, most nerds wouldn't even have a chance to feel butthurt. The delf PCs would run around on power trips thinking they're special and actually matter in the scheme of things, when really the clan would have very little power within the game world. They'd get crushed pretty quickly.

This. They'd probably just turn into a bunch of lolraiders with a home base protected by crimcode where they can return at the first sign of trouble.

No thanks.

IsFriday's and BleakOnes' posts are perfect demonstrations of the effects I was afraid of and discussed above.

Those hopeful posters from before, please do not angrily reply to these poorly-thought out retorts. There's no need to jeopardize this any further. Just take it off the GDB, go to requests, and let it work itself IC. If it was meant to be, it'll happen. If it was meant to degenerate into shitty twinkdom, fine.

This potential tribe had better have good systems for regulating the behavior of its members. That's all I'll say in addition to what's been said... and do my best not to make this discussion any more.. hostile.

edit: edited for you bleakone. Sorry. Didn't mean it in a permanent sense. I really didn't appreciate the post, though.

I admit I could have phrased my response more diplomatically, but it is my opinion nonetheless.

edit: No worries.

You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

Can't talk about my current character so fuck all this craziness.

I have to reply, as IsFriday at least should know better. I know less about Bleakone, so here is the reply.

First, delves are karma, abusing that trust is subject to many actions staff side, from forced storage, to karma loss, bad account notes, and more.

But if the clan has good documentation, one finds that the players police themselves and each other.

When I was playing RF, it was actually rare for staff to have to step in to straighten out behavier, usually the players did that. Of course RF documentation made that a bit easier, unlike most delf tribes, killing a tribemate as a RF was more...allowed...but in all tribes if the actions of one is considered bad for the tribe as a whole...mantis head.

And keep in mind, this was a heavy raiding tribe...but even with that in the docs, most money was actually made in trading, raiding made less then half that. Did we kill, yes, but almost always as a last resort...and often we would avoid it even then. I can think of many times when raiding, somebody does not want to give up the goods, it is explained to them that we will kill them...they get brave, attack...we have mercy on, KO foolish person, take more then we would have otherwise, but still leave them live.

Now, taking the suggestion for a red storm delf/celf combo tribe (which I think has potential and don't think it has been done before) Having well worded docs is the key.
It would not be hard to have it in the docs that for that tribe, bringing any kind of heat back to the tribe/redstorm is considered VERY bad. My bet is, that would solve any possible problems such as you seem to fear.

I also bet if you stuck even just Lizzie and Bushranger on the docs task, you would have a tight set of bomb docs in short order. I myself would want to play at least one celf and 1 delf of said tribe.

I'd have more support if the clan had at least a 'no raid zone' around Red Storm. I doubt the Sand Lord would give them any mercy if they messed with the all-important trade by being live-in raiders.

It still seems vaguely non-elfy to me, though. Desert Elves living inside a full-blown human settlement doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Particularly they make a living raiding outside their own home town.

It might make a bit more sense as a purely C-elf clan of elves with connections to 'nak and the 'rinth. Maybe acting as spice smugglers, traders, and unusually well-traveled c-elves.

Then again, what do I know, I should know better.  ::)

There's appeal in crafters, for some god-awful reason. :p  I bet you'd get a merchant or two easily. Especially if you allow them to wander to Allanak often.

As far as "lolraiding" and tailing it back to Red Storm .... you've just described half the indy human/mul/dwarf/whatever raiders I've seen in the past how many years? X-D makes an excellent point in referring to Red Fang. For a tribe that rained supreme for quite a while, they really weren't that bad.

What I think would be a neat, new raider culture, that might be somewhat in-line with shady gypsy performer types, is some sort of game played against the victim. For instance, you offer forth a riddle or a challenge, and if they lose you are a smart and glorious elf, and entitled to a small concession from them. If they win, perhaps you have to offer them something as a prize, and you are shamed as being lack-wit. So, you could ask someone a riddle and give them three guesses. Or if they look like a good hunter, challenge them to an archery contest. Or if they're foraging salt, have a contest to see who can find a blue crystal first. Sort of beat them at their own game, or leave them alone.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 19, 2013, 02:46:25 AM
As far as "lolraiding" and tailing it back to Red Storm .... you've just described half the indy human/mul/dwarf/whatever raiders I've seen in the past how many years?

Indeed. I still wouldn't like to see a clan dedicated to it appear, though.

Your idea of armed, thieving tricksters sounds much more appealing. Only being violent if the quarry was to actively flee, be insulting or fight back (perhaps considering that as the victim 'defining the contest' in such a way by combat or hunting), and usually just extorting coins out of people via less-than-honest contests, riddles ect. That sounds much more d-elfy than a city-based raiding heavy clan.

My only reservation about raiding clans/people in general is their tendency to start working with the first rogue anything they come across till they grow into a monstrous hoarde of abominations that has way much coded power for their place in the larger virtual world. Staff always steps in to stop it, but until they do ... it's really. Really. Annoying.

Well, the idea for red storm is just that, an idea.

I was reflecting on it a bit...and though I do like the idea of a combined tribe...I don't really like the idea of delves living in a human settlement...as some have said, seems rather undelfy to me.

I really lean far more towards a small tribe of gypsy travelers, tricksters, thieves, con artists, entertainers even. But with no lands they think they own/control.

If I was to add to a real wish list on the matter, I would give them a coded camp...BUT, I would make it a wagon object that only clan staff can move. That way, instead of a preset pattern like the human nomads (delves would laugh at them calling themselves nomads BTW) The delf gypsy camp could be moved pretty much on a whim...maybe one room, maybe fifty.

look east
near: A jumbled huddle of ragged yet colorful small tents.

Have it be one room that you can pitch coded tents in. (not including the staff only "pilot" room)

Anyway, starting to ramble.

But hell, I'd play them if there was no coded camp, Hump your tents IC works too.

I need to stop reading this thread...I am starting to think up docs.

See Jack, my mind is wrapping around this hypothetical formation of a combo d-c-elf clan as being more 3-dimensional than just a raider clan. They wouldn't be a raider clan, any more than your average southern Templar is a raider (you know - it's not like they will bear down on their victim and demand a bribe in exchange for their life or anything... :) )

They would be a Red Storm clan. Thieves, shady elves, possible underhanded dealings with spice, maybe even a minor inconvenience in Kurac's side OR possibly a minor usefulness to them - depending on which way whira blows that week...all the things that Red Storm itself is known for - concentrated in one race with two aspects - elves who can travel far, and elves who cannot. Raiding might be one of the things some of them do, but the clan wouldn't be a raider clan. I think that's where everyone's getting tripped up.

To clarify, I'm not hot on the idea of a mixed c/d-elf tribe, or a pure 'raider clan' either. I was just "going with the flow", and offering up a cool idea. (Dibs on a dwarf PC with that focus!)

What I'm feeling personally is more inline with X-Ds original idea on this. Small population, light-weight influence, gypsy D-elves.

However, my personal idea of a cool clan: they would be the cheapest and dirtiest of the cheap and dirty. Playing it out like 2 sid con-men, smugglers, gamblers and crooks with ties from the East side of the rinth, to the Warrens of Tuluk. I see such elves as ultimately cowardly, preferring subtlety to boldness. However I don't think if 3 of these points came across a lone hunter far from the gates of any lawful settlement, they would pass up such an opportunity. In the spirit of being sly gambler types, and NOT primarily raiders, I thought it would be neat if there was an established raiding protocol in the form of a sporting challenge. Additionally, they might try to cut in on the business of other clans/houses, but on a level small enough to go undetected as to not draw the ire of a more powerful force. For instance, one elf might get the idea to sell spice in Tuluk at cheaper-than-Kurac prices, but would do so in passing to a small handful of PCs. If Kurac became aware, they would cease. At the same time, another pair of elves might team up -- one performs while the other slinks around the audience picking pockets. Whatever gets the job done. Jacks of all trades that seem available.

Raiding Idea Scenario:
A D-elf from the (?) tribe comes across a lone hunter of house (?) who has a 2,000 sid bow. Figuring one with such a bow must be a seasoned hunter like himself, (and not a 10 day played ranger who sells half his hunting take rather than turning it in, thus netting him 20,000 sid worth of gear by the end of his recruit period... ya know the type.) the elf offers up a gamble - "My 1000 sid bow plus 1000 coins, against your 2000 sid bow. Victor is the first one who can peg that turaal over there." If the hunter refuses, he may offer another challenge, "My legs versus your beetle - first one to that rock pile on the horizon." And this can go on, all the way down to a riddle, a dice game, or flip of the coin. If the hunter refuses, then he is labelled a coward, and may be open to a (preferably non-fatal) attack.

I think this is a cool idea because:
- It's kinda neat, admit it.
- It offers a slight patch to the empty 'raider' niche, without re-inventing the Red Fangs.
- It's a gamble/challenge whose terms should be fair enough to lure the 'victim' in. (at least at face value: loaded dice - yay, master archer elf vs newb with a slingshot - nay.)
- It's sly and plays to elven pride nicely.

I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

There are 2 city elf tribes already struggling for players.

Quote from: Bogre on May 20, 2013, 09:19:49 PM
There are 2 city elf tribes already struggling for players.

If they're struggling for players, a discussion as to *why* might be in order either in another thread, or one-on-one with the staff. But -this- thread is about the fact that some of us really miss having more than two options for -desert- elves. Some of us really miss RPing -with- more than 2 desert elf tribes, whether we play them or simply interact with them. And some of us are offering suggestions on how to possibly address that. One of those suggestions was to have a tribe from Red Storm that included both types of elves. But no - no one is requesting or suggesting another city elf tribe.

Remember a few years ago when Red Fang was awesome?

Yeah, reopen Red Fang.

Red Fangs were awesome because of a certain player... but maybe a little too awesome, because other players decided to destroy it.

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT GUYS.

Quote from: BleakOne on May 19, 2013, 02:38:01 AM
I'd have more support if the clan had at least a 'no raid zone' around Red Storm. I doubt the Sand Lord would give them any mercy if they messed with the all-important trade by being live-in raiders.

It still seems vaguely non-elfy to me, though. Desert Elves living inside a full-blown human settlement doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Particularly they make a living raiding outside their own home town.

It might make a bit more sense as a purely C-elf clan of elves with connections to 'nak and the 'rinth. Maybe acting as spice smugglers, traders, and unusually well-traveled c-elves.

Then again, what do I know, I should know better.  ::)

I think you are right. Currently city elves do not like going outside the walls (although some do), and many have a total aversion to it. D elves are exactly the opposite. Some have less trouble being in town than others, but sooner or later they want out. Some can't even stand the thought of towns. Mixing the two in one tribe seems complicated culturally.
That does not mean that a tribe of elves in RS is a bad idea.  I just think they should be city elves, who perhaps have much less of an aversion to working outside of the walls, but would never want to stay outside of them permanently. They would have some disadvantages of course, not being able to ride and getting tired much faster than a d elf.  
If some players wanted to, they could already try this out as I think a city elf does not have to be in a specific tribe. Not sure on this however. The tribe could be virtual at first RP'd by the players. If it took off, maybe documents and such would follow?

And..to bring it back to d elves, I stand behind my earlier comment that a solution would be to allow the creation of indie d elves. I know that tribe is very important to elves. But tribe can be rp'd. Eventually if something solid coalesced around a group of players, perhaps it could morph into an offical tribe.

Quote from: Delirium on May 20, 2013, 09:13:17 PM
I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

That other tribe would be a better place for a DE/CE mixed clan that Red Storm, IMHO.  I think one potential for such a tribe would be for it to be aligned to a city state, via treaty or whatnot.  So instead of a DE tribe raiding in "their" territory, you get a DE tribe integrated into the North/South political landscape raiding the other side's territory.

Quote from: Twilight on May 21, 2013, 12:54:33 PM

Quote from: Delirium on May 20, 2013, 09:13:17 PM
I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

That other tribe would be a better place for a DE/CE mixed clan that Red Storm, IMHO.  I think one potential for such a tribe would be for it to be aligned to a city state, via treaty or whatnot.  So instead of a DE tribe raiding in "their" territory, you get a DE tribe integrated into the North/South political landscape raiding the other side's territory.

+1

Quote from: Delirium on May 20, 2013, 11:06:29 PM
Red Fangs were awesome because of a certain player... but maybe a little too awesome, because other players decided to destroy it.

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT GUYS.

Yeah, some of the PC's I saw come and go were insane. I was lucky enough to survive for over 2 RL years during that RF era, although I remained almost completely unknown to 99% of Arm's PC's outside of RF during that time. Greatest arm experience of my life.

I miss RF. Maybe I will start playing again soon.

My first ever character was robbed by a red fang inside Luirs. Really introduced me to the game properly. Their breath stinks, by the way. Regardless, I miss them.

Two words:

Sewer Elves

D-elves by stat so they can roam their domain more effectively. The don't build structures -- why would they need to? Give them some reasons to trade in the certain shadowed corners and with other d-elf tribes, so that another area sees more interaction.

When they raid, it's highly ritualized, and rarely ends with the death or mugging of their victims. It's more about showing bravery and inspiring fear. They'd only crawl out of their holes at night, so the open desert during the day would be pretty safe from their raiding habits.

And for people who enjoy a couple certain magicker guilds, they'd be an ideal home.

I'm not big on this "lets take the desert elf race and put it in a city" idea. In any context. But city elf sewer elves would be cool.

I moved a few posts in this thread because they hinted a little too strongly at what goes on in and around the sewers and how to get to certain places.

Please remember that not everybody knows about this stuff, guys! It's easy enough to keep it vague.

Quote from: number13 on May 24, 2013, 05:17:44 AM
Two words:

Sewer Elves

D-elves by stat so they can roam their domain more effectively. The don't build structures -- why would they need to? Give them some reasons to trade in the certain shadowed corners and with other d-elf tribes, so that another area sees more interaction.

When they raid, it's highly ritualized, and rarely ends with the death or mugging of their victims. It's more about showing bravery and inspiring fear. They'd only crawl out of their holes at night, so the open desert during the day would be pretty safe from their raiding habits.

And for people who enjoy a couple certain magicker guilds, they'd be an ideal home.

We don't always have drow, but when we do, they smell like shit.

Quote from: MeTekillot on May 18, 2013, 07:24:14 PM
You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

If there were enough monitors for abuse of a role, I'm sure we wouldn't have Blackwing closed.  Plus Karma 1 is no guarantee that the same desire to twink or powergame or become a full time raider wouldn't pop up in the less experienced players.

The blended clan in Red Storm sounds alright, but not great.

- How do you account for two different adaptations in the same breeding population? Intermarriage would weaken both adaptations, and knowledge of how to breed to retain these characteristics would likely lead to a high risk of inbreeding.  Better to make them two sister clans.
- The South is full of people right now, a new PC clan in the South will only tip the scales more.


Part of the d-elf complaints right now revolve around the isolation from the larger PC population; it's a challenge to play in a tribe with 3 PCs where the 3rd is hardly ever on and the 2nd has different playtimes.  And the thought that came to mind was: what if the D-Elf tribal base had more exposure to the major north-south conduit?  Even the main north-south routes don't run through the territory of the two existing tribes, the routes are considered beyond their territory, but if that was changed it adds a lot more spice to the area for everybody involved.  A bit of new desertification, and / or a relocate of camps might make this happen. At least it creates the risk / possibility of more interaction

Quote from: gfair on May 24, 2013, 10:32:28 AM

Quote from: MeTekillot on May 18, 2013, 07:24:14 PM
You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

- The South is full of people right now, a new PC clan in the South will only tip the scales more.

Haha

No

Quote from: gfair on May 24, 2013, 10:32:28 AM
- How do you account for two different adaptations in the same breeding population? Intermarriage would weaken both adaptations, and knowledge of how to breed to retain these characteristics would likely lead to a high risk of inbreeding.  Better to make them two sister clans.

Intermarriage?  There is one elf race.

Quote from: Helpfile City Elves and Helpfile Desert Elves
The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Chalk it up to lifestyle differences in the adolescent background of the characters.

How to explain the differences? I dunno. How do you explain that your daughter is athletically inclined and your son isn't? How do you explain that your oldest is great at math but can't conjugate a verb, and your youngest can speak five languages fluently but can't balance a checkbook?

Some people are just better at outdoor athletics than others. Even within the same family. That's why - within individual tribes - there are characters who provide for their families by hunting, and others who provide by crafting things, and others who provide by using a bow, and others who provide by charming city people into trading with them.

It's a pretty simple thing really, no need to get convoluted. Some people are just better with some things than other things. So you put your family members where they'll serve the family most efficiently. Athletes get to run. Handy people get to craft. Mouthy people get to trade. Sure, they can each do other things...but there's no point in assigning someone who -isn't- good at running, to be the designated runner - when someone who -is- good at it, is available. And there's no point in assigning someone who's clumsy and has no talent for crafting, as the crafter, when you have someone who has a knack for it sitting right there.

I still think we're ignoring the Haruch Kemad, which is essentially what you guys are looking for.

I feel any 'new' city elf clan would get maybe a beginning boost because it's new and interesting, but suffer the same problems the other elf clans have.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 24, 2013, 12:02:41 PM
Some people are just better at outdoor athletics than others. Even within the same family. That's why - within individual tribes - there are characters who provide for their families by hunting, and others who provide by crafting things, and others who provide by using a bow, and others who provide by charming city people into trading with them.

I know what you are saying, but aptitude alone is simply insufficient. The survival conditions faced by the two subsets of Elven culture are so markedly different that they have produced differing adaptations.

Twilight-   "There is only one Elf race" does not invalidate or rule out the possibility of the two sub sets having specific, genetic adaptations.  Humanity is all one race, and yet we do indeed have distinct adaptations, including at the genetic level. The fact remains - we are all still one, just not one-hundred-percent one.

Quote from: Bogre on May 24, 2013, 03:38:25 PM
I still think we're ignoring the Haruch Kemad, which is essentially what you guys are looking for.

I feel any 'new' city elf clan would get maybe a beginning boost because it's new and interesting, but suffer the same problems the other elf clans have.

That's a city based clan with city elves though. This thread is about the need/desire for another desert elf tribe.

Perceived need/desire of a minority of players who happen to be vocal on the gdb.

I think delfs are fine as they are now.
People had their chance with Red Fangs for what most of you are describing and the game world decided to kill them.

I think someone said it before, but if you're unhappy with the current delf clans, try to change them in-game rather than out.

Quote from: Bogre on May 24, 2013, 03:38:25 PM
I still think we're ignoring the Haruch Kemad, which is essentially what you guys are looking for.

Can you elaborate on that?

Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on May 24, 2013, 11:04:48 PM
People had their chance with Red Fangs for what most of you are describing and the game world decided to kill them.

I feel the need to say something. I'm not sure that I haven't said this already but if I did, forgive me it's old age and years of sniffing solvents.

So, the world decided to kill Red Fangs? The glass ceiling that exists in every other clan and the purpose of which is to maintain the status quo of the game world somehow completely failed in the case of RF. I wonder if it wasn't intentional, because the Fangs were deemed too much trouble to run and other layers hated being raided. In any other clan, say Kadius, if you're a family member and you try to stir enough shit with both Kurac and Salarr to start an actual war and risk your house annihilated, there'll always be a higher up guy who'll slap the shit out of you and your minions. The players of RF who started those hostilities (while not even close to the elder position of the tribe) didn't receive any repercussions before it was too late. It wasn't just the case of world reacting as it should, it was an excuse to close another troublesome raiding clan. My opinion obv.

(not to mention the fact that raiding wasn't even supposed to be the main activity of RF)

Quote from: spicemustflow on May 24, 2013, 11:39:59 PM

Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on May 24, 2013, 11:04:48 PM
People had their chance with Red Fangs for what most of you are describing and the game world decided to kill them.

I feel the need to say something. I'm not sure that I haven't said this already but if I did, forgive me it's old age and years of sniffing solvents.

So, the world decided to kill Red Fangs? The glass ceiling that exists in every other clan and the purpose of which is to maintain the status quo of the game world somehow completely failed in the case of RF. I wonder if it wasn't intentional, because the Fangs were deemed too much trouble to run and other layers hated being raided. In any other clan, say Kadius, if you're a family member and you try to stir enough shit with both Kurac and Salarr to start an actual war and risk your house annihilated, there'll always be a higher up guy who'll slap the shit out of you and your minions. The players of RF who started those hostilities (while not even close to the elder position of the tribe) didn't receive any repercussions before it was too late. It wasn't just the case of world reacting as it should, it was an excuse to close another troublesome raiding clan. My opinion obv.

(not to mention the fact that raiding wasn't even supposed to be the main activity of RF)

They died ICly to the Sun Runners, a PC open tribe. It's in the history.

They died ICly for IC reasons. The IC game world pretty much did decide to kill them, not evil adminz.

The world was allowed to kill them because the VNPCs that exist above the player in every other clan (in order to prevent players to get things out of control) didn't prevent players to get things out of control. Is this more clear? Again, a Kuraci family member wouldn't be allowed to wage war on Tuluk.

The Red Fangs were never a Known-spanning super-cartel like House Kurac, and were quite weak comparitively with many other clans from an OOC angle. They simply didn't have the connections that the higher ups in House Kurac would have, seeing as how they were pretty much everybody's enemy, save some other elf tribes (which they alienated, apparently, to be killed by Sun Runners as the docs state) and the gith.

You're still missing my point. The comparison between RF and Kurac is irrelevant, and Red Fangs do have a sort of council of elders that would have realized that pissing off Sun Runners is a monstrously bad idea. That's how shit works in every clan. Players may have been badasses but they weren't even close to being the leaders of the tribe. glass ceiling and all

If a Kuraci family member tried to do something like that, he'd be a deceased (stored) Kuraci family member.

You don't know the details.

Quote from: Is Friday on May 25, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
You don't know the details.

I admit I don't. This is just how it looks like to me.

An Elf tribe that has Trap and steal.   They feel morally inclined to deliver large amounts of explosives to living humanoids that aren't of their tribe.   
em looks down at the pack in his inventory reaching to open it.  the tall muscular man runs in from the west screaming in Austrian accented English "Its a balmb! NOOOOO!'

This thread has turned from good ideas to idle speculation.

The good ideas are here, so thanks for that!