Progression of desert-elven role availabilty

[Norcal]

Seems that 2 tribes is working fine right now to me. I don't see what adding another tribe we do, except maybe increase the number of raiders for a short while.

I think a lot of people have a problem with them basically being in their own little world with little incentive to interact with others outside of it. Adding a new tribe in a different area I think woould be really cool.

Salt-flat elves sound fucking wicked.

There are a lot of roles and clans in Arm with as many or more restrictions as there are for d-elves. That is true even for Soh.  Just think about it and you could probably name a few easily. If you really look at it, the two tribes have a VERY large area to roam in and Runners can go pretty much where ever they like in the known.

The placement of the two tribes is close. But that is a good thing. It ensures interaction, plots and politics. This is made even better by the proximity of the two human tribal clans currently open.  And the location of the camps ensures that even the Soh will have regular and exciting interaction with outsiders from all over the known.  That is, if you play it right. 

As to plots it is not as rare as you might think for Soh to be involved in plots connected to one of the two large cities and certainly Luir's.  This can happen while your PC stays totally in conformity with the docs. It's not an everyday occurrence, but it does happen.  Sun Runners are more frequently involved in these plots, and might even hatch a couple themselves.

Sometimes it seems that people only want to play d elves so that they can raid. Raiding is fun. But realistically, if there was a tribe that existed that regularly raided for reasons other than protecting their territory, that tribe would get wiped out.  Wait..that sounds familiar.

If staff were to open another tribe, I would hope it would be the ATV.  But honestly I think the choices we have now are both extremely playable and lots of fun. If you have not played a delf, then you have missed out on a very cool experience. What are you waiting for?

[RogueGunslinger]

Were you responding to me there? Because you quoted me, but it doesn't really have much to do with what I said.

[Norcal]

Actually it does. You said people have a problem with them being in their own little world. Their world is not so little, and they have incentive and opportunity to get involved beyond it.

But you are right in that I was responding to some other posts as well. Just did not want to quote them all.

[Incognito]

There's been numerous posts about the pros and cons of opening up more d-elf tribes vis-a-vis increase in raiding.

This isn't what all d-elf tribes do, and it's wrong to believe that d-elves just add to the raiding population of Zalanthas.

D-elves are intelligent, they hunt and gather stuff, they make some awesome tribal goods and they trade, in goods and information. If dealt with due respect and proper protocol, 9 out of 10 d-elves will be open to peaceful interraction with outsiders.

Granted, once in a while, some PCs or even some clans decide to take up raiding as a full-time job. That is their own interpretation of things, and not what most d-elf clan docs suggest. Also, there might be some IC reasons why certain d-elves or their entire clans are raiding in the first place (they need money for something big, or, they have cause for enimity with some merchant house, or some clan in particular etc etc).

One of the primary reasons some d-elf pcs or clans do take up raiding or hurting non-d-elves is because they see outsiders coming in the the Abi'li Pah (which they claim as home territory) and mass hunting game there. Desert elves by default, hunt to live, and not live to hunt - simply because they cannot afford to deplete the source(s) of their food/clothing/trade/livelyhood. It is very natural for them to feel "anger" towards outsiders, who try and disturb this "balance" - and  cause them to "raid" or "mindlessly attack" non-desert-elves who they come across near their territory.

I just thought I'd set the record straight as far as the misconception goes - about all desert elves being raiders, or, that adding more d-elf tribes will only add to raiding in the game.

On an entirely different note, please also bear in mind that the existence of *some* raiders out there - only adds to the fun of the game - and adds more possiblities for RP and interractions between players as well. Why else would someone need to hire the Byn as an escort, or pay some guards in-game to help them make a journey across the sands?

The more experienced d-elf raiders also make it a point to not "strip" their victims blind. I've seen d-elves take an item or two off their victims, or, ask for a specific but limited number of coins to spare someone's life, just so that the victim isn't left 'sid'less and weaponless in the middle of nowhere.

[Incognito]

I think the Soh and SR represent a fairly good mix of available delfie play.

I think the Sun Runners are really the cream of the crop as to what a desert elf should be - or elf in general.

I would beg to differ on the former, and agree whole-heartedly with the latter.

We definitely need atleast one more d-elf tribe which takes in "darker" characters, even if it is small in terms of virtual population. And by "darker" characters I dont mean raiders.

[solera]

What are you waiting for?

The ATV   

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I agree whole-heartedly with the need for another clan.

I love the ATV, I really do... but it's DEFINITELY not the one. I played a couple characters in the ATV the last year it was open, and I can sympathize with the reasons it was (probably) closed. Not only are they isolationists, but they're isolationists far flung from the rest of the d-elves. I remember our tribe struggling to get involved in the plots of Sun Runners several times, but ultimately having it fall flat on its face partially because they don't give a shit what happens beyond their little area of the world. And the worst part about the tribe is the wide range of acceptable classes that everyone seems to be pushing for. *Disappears in a volley of flying rotten petoch fruits.*  It's cool in theory, but in practice you just have a desert elf tribe without. one. single. ranger. (I'm guilty of perpetrating this as well, but I deeply regret it looking back.)

I would love to see Black Wing open, but that seems like it's the LAST thing that is going to happen. I sense it's more than just a 'trust issue', since clans like Kurac, AOD, and Legion offer the same power and more to 0 karma roles.

Personally, I'm a player who is highly susceptible to wander lust, so naturally I LOVE d-elves.... but I HATE the tribes available right now. Passionately.

I'm on team X-D gypsy-elves 100%. They don't even have to be raiders. I'd love to see restless, roaming con-artists sewing shady deals from Red Storm to Tuluk. And in the spirit of things, it would even make sense to play them campless like we did back in the day. If we need docs - we've got a highly and creative playerbase willing to do the heavy lifting. If we need extra coding ... well, I have no idea what MUDs are written in, but I'm an application developer by trade and I'll volunteer to learn and do that work, if it comes to that.

The tribes we currently have open are great tribes, but I feel that most players are ready for something new. How many years has it been since we've had more than 2 options?

[Lizzie]

I feel the same as Jack's Opinion.

Disclaimer - I've played a couple of Sun Runners, a Soh, and a Red Fang. I've also played a human character who interacted with Dune Stalkers and Silt Winds and the whole plethora of the elven tribes right before most of them were shut down/destroyed-IC.

Although it didn't end well, I LOVED playing a Red Fang. It was one of my #1 favorite experiences with Arm. We -rarely- PKed anyone - yes, it did happen, but raids were more on the order of "if you give me your inix, I'll let you live." Or "ooh pretty sword. Give it to me and you can go on your way." Or "hm.you cast an interesting spell, friend. Cast it for me every time I see you, and my tribe won't tell the Sun Runners we ever saw you." I have had this experience as a "victim" exactly ONCE since the Red Fangs were destroyed. I miss it. I miss it from the aggressor side, and I miss it from the victim side.

I don't feel any "need" to ask for a resurrection of the Red Fangs, or even for a tribe that focuses on raiding. But I do feel that the variety has been SO limited for desert elves, for so long, that it feels stale, used, done before, and we're ready for a change. Not to limit it more (so I'm not asking to close down ANOTHER tribe) - but to expand. The gypsy tribe seems great.

There is no other low-karma character option that is presently SO limited. Yes, muls are VERY limited. But they're not low-karma options, and you have to *want* to play a limited character, AND have the karma - to play it. So muls don't count. Special apps don't count. Sponsored roles don't count. I'm talking about just ordinary players with ordinary karma choices who want to play desert elves, which is a low-karma option.

In all other low-karma options, the choices are nearly limitless. You can play in an existing coded tribe or you can play in a non-coded made-up tribe of your own. You can play a city person or a non-city person. You can play in a clan or not (even city elves can play in the Byn and Kurac). Low-ranking mages (viv/ruk) can hide their magicks and get clanned and take their risks, or not. They can get gemmed, or attempt to avoid it. They can be from tribes, or from cities, or from one of the villages or trading centers instead.

Desert elves are the only low-karma options that have such restrictions. You can pick one of two coded tribes, each with its own very specific, and restrictive culture and habits. That's it. A third option would open the possibilities for both players who want to play desert elves, and for players who want to play other things who interact with desert elves.

The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

Maybe these elves would bring -different- coded options to the desert-elf-collective than the two current tribes bring. Maybe they'd have all the mundane options, plus..one or two non-mundane options that might or might not currently exist in the desert elf cache of options. Limited - definitely limited. Last thing we need is a whole cadre of elkrosian elves running rampant over the known. But right now, some of us already know that if we meet up with a desert elf, he will -not- be "this or that" or "the other thing," because we already know they're not allowed by staff to exist as PCs.

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

Even if it's a temporary thing and it closes up after a year - I think that general spark of a non-virtual gypsy tribe of elves, that *do* exist in the game world in a virtual sense, would be good for everyone.

[Booya]

I'm on team X-D gypsy-elves 100%.

Me too.

[Norcal]

I am not sure if there is an existing option to create an unclanned d-elf. I have never tried, and from reading this thread it seems like it's not possible.

IMHO allowing unclanned, indie d-elves would be a better option than creating a new clan, or opening up an old one. If players were into it, they could come together and make their own clan, which would live and die based on its popularity with the players. People could come and go. You could do your own thing or create/join a group.

Another option I am not sure about is rebellion. I believe you can codedly leave a tribe or clan. I am not sure what staff would do though, and I expect the clan you left would hunt you down and kill you.

[Zul]

I believe that flies in the face of the documentation.

[tiptoe]

I am not sure if there is an existing option to create an unclanned d-elf. I have never tried, and from reading this thread it seems like it's not possible.

IMHO allowing unclanned, indie d-elves would be a better option than creating a new clan, or opening up an old one. If players were into it, they could come together and make their own clan, which would live and die based on its popularity with the players. People could come and go. You could do your own thing or create/join a group.

Another option I am not sure about is rebellion. I believe you can codedly leave a tribe or clan. I am not sure what staff would do though, and I expect the clan you left would hunt you down and kill you.

D-elves live and die for their tribes. And to me, playing a d-elf is interesting because of that tribal mindset. Unclanned d-elves would just go against a good portion of that. As would rebellion.

[Red Ranger]

The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

...

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

This was a similar argument that came up in a recent "Open the Mesa Gith" thread. I happen to agree that PC vs. PC conflict is more fun than NPC vs. PC conflict. However, I think that we players have the means of bringing that to the game IC'ly without needing the staff to do it for us by creating new clans out of nothing.

As I posted in that thread:

I happen to like the two open d-elf clans.  Furthermore, if a player currently wants to delve into an isolated and violent Tablelands culture, they can already make a d-elf in one of those two open clans and try to shift the clan's outlook to being more stridently violent through IC means.

More generally, if we players want more "harshness" and "danger" in the wilds, and we prefer to have our PCs die to other PCs rather than to NPCs, I posit that we players have the means necessary to make this happen ourselves.  Make a PC and make it happen.  It won't be easy.  You'll need to do your homework, you'll need to build up your own fighty PC base, you'll need to build up your own political base wherever you call home, you might want to find your own powerful patron, and you'll need some luck.  But it can be done.

Be the change, etc. etc.

Go be the pot-stirring change.

[Zerero]

I wish I had one karma. 

[spicemustflow]

I wish I had one karma. 

karma 1 is easiest to acquire, just ask for notes and if you didn't like try to hack the server in the last year you'll get it

or you could spec app for d-elf, almost guaranteed to work

[Dakota]

The gypsy idea would create a mode of conflict for both existing coded tribes, which I think would be exciting for them. It'd create a mode of conflict for anyone who travels between cities, which I think would be INFINITELY more exiting than the current "oh - more kryl. Turn right and detour through the scrub" or gortok pack #473, or random carru #997946.

...

I'd love to see a little stirring up of the pot, give the existing playerbase just a tiny touch of the mystery and meyhem that we used to experience, back when it was a lot more opened up to options than it is now.

This was a similar argument that came up in a recent "Open the Mesa Gith" thread. I happen to agree that PC vs. PC conflict is more fun than NPC vs. PC conflict. However, I think that we players have the means of bringing that to the game IC'ly without needing the staff to do it for us by creating new clans out of nothing.

As I posted in that thread:

I happen to like the two open d-elf clans.  Furthermore, if a player currently wants to delve into an isolated and violent Tablelands culture, they can already make a d-elf in one of those two open clans and try to shift the clan's outlook to being more stridently violent through IC means.

More generally, if we players want more "harshness" and "danger" in the wilds, and we prefer to have our PCs die to other PCs rather than to NPCs, I posit that we players have the means necessary to make this happen ourselves.  Make a PC and make it happen.  It won't be easy.  You'll need to do your homework, you'll need to build up your own fighty PC base, you'll need to build up your own political base wherever you call home, you might want to find your own powerful patron, and you'll need some luck.  But it can be done.

Be the change, etc. etc.

Go be the pot-stirring change.

I think you're missing the point where the sentiment (er perhaps the most common one in the thread) is for another tribe to be available desert-elf roles, rather than a PC role geared to "stir the pot" or "be the change"... Currently you can't make your own desert-elf tribe and the two options, while very different from each (and in some ways, completely awesome) other are fairly narrow.

[Red Ranger]

stuff in response to a narrow point about a perceived lack of PC vs. PC conflict outside of the cities

I think you're missing the point where the sentiment (er perhaps the most common one in the thread) is for another tribe to be available desert-elf roles, rather than a PC role geared to "stir the pot" or "be the change"... Currently you can't make your own desert-elf tribe and the two options, while very different from each (and in some ways, completely awesome) other are fairly narrow.

Thanks!  But you're wrong.  I didn't miss "the" point.  I addressed a point in my post (the point in the text that I explicitly quoted), but it wasn't your point.

I'll now address your point.

You write that you want another playable desert elf clan because the current two are "fairly narrow." I'm not sure what that means, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. You don't have to agree with me, but I happen to like the two current playable desert elf clans, as I've noted previously.

So opinions are good! But just sharing your opinion that you don't like the currently available clans doesn't seem to me like it will be a persuasive argument for the addition of a third desert elf clan. Also, just nonspecifically claiming that the current two clans are "fairly narrow" is unlikely to be persuasive. Narrow how? What vital experience is missing that a third playable desert elf clan would add? Keep in mind that the OP's point about missing opportunities to play certain desert elven magicker guilds has already been addressed.

Lizzie does a good job making an explicit case in her post for how a new desert elf clan could add to the game. I happen to disagree with her on the necessity of adding a third desert elf clan in order to address that problem she identifies. One could plausibly also argue that a third desert elf clan made up purely of Nilazis could add the missing Nilazi presence in the game, or that a third desert elf clan focused purely on nonstop mudsex would add much needed mudsex to the game. Maybe the game needs more Nilazis and more mudsex! But a new desert elf clan wouldn't be necessary to add either more Nilazis or more mudsex to the game because players have it in their power to add both already, without the imms needing to add in a new desert elf clan.

So what is the game missing that a third playable desert elf clan needs to be added?

[RogueGunslinger]

Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

[musashi]

The docs list the Sun Runners as the most extroverted of all desert elf tribes. I believe that barring one or two roles within the tribe, most all Sun Runners are prone to wandering.

[Zerero]

Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

[ShaLeah]

Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

Right. The SR's are the most widely run sharps in the Known. They even dance by the Silt Sea.

[Lizzie]

Elves that actually wander and explore has always felt like something that is missing from the Pah tribes. Maybe I just wasn't playing them correctly. The Sunrunners sometimes make deals with people, but it never felt pervasive or common, and they'd always go back to their home like that interaction didn't really even happen.

I dunno, that just sounds like an absence of movers and shakers within that specific group.

Right. The SR's are the most widely run sharps in the Known. They even dance by the Silt Sea.

That is only because all the other coded "wide-run sharps" were closed down. This also makes them the second-least-run sharps - next to the Soh.

As for be the change - the change many of us want to see (which is why this thread exists) is a third desert elf tribe option. We are told we are not -allowed- to have this option. There -are- other desert elf tribes. But we are not -allowed- to play in any of them. We are not -allowed- to play in a virtual tribe that we make up. We are not -allowed- to create a new desert elf tribe, and (I agree with this one) - we are not -allowed- to be tribeless desert elves. And so - "be the change" is just cliche that has absolutely no meaning to this particular subject.

[X-D]

Lizzie has the right of it.

But let us put it a different way, This has nothing at all to do with like or dislike of a tribe or if we think they are good or bad...in fact, if you think they are good then you would not want to try and change the outlook of the tribe anyway.

What it does have to do with is personal fit and the "something different" Option. For me it is personal fit...Neither of the currently open tribes are a fit to me...though one more then another.

So, for me there is no delf option. And even if there was, just bouncing back and forth between just those two rather narrow options...Bleh. Also, they both have the same (basic) location. Sorta like playing the rinth ALL the time, This time east side, next time west...etc etc....But oh hey, there is a third option, you can play a shifty in nak proper. So, the "something different" Option comes into play.

Hell, I would find one of the two open tribes a better fit if there was a third active tribe...even better if said tribe is not located right next door.

My best times playing a delf was when there was at least 5 active documented tribes...greater dynamics of interaction...I think 3 open tribes would be plenty though.

[evil_erdlu]

I would love to see Blackwing open...If it meant making some changes or whatever so they aren't abusable...or since you now need to be pre-approved to play a d-elf just having a shot at trusting the players.

Because we obviously don't trust the players now...

I'd be interested in seeing a more positive swing in these 'what sucks about ____ threads', which most players seem capable of keeping to.

We trust you guys. Honest -- We do.

Never trust a playa.

+1...

You all persuaded me to play a d-elf sometime, as the next third character.

[Bushranger]

Is there any reason there could not be a tribe that comprised of both City Elf and Desert Elf?

For the last few years I've been looking into the elves of Red Storm. I seem to recall Mekeda once told me that there was a tribe in Red Storm that made up the elves you see in the Sand Lord's militia, but in a recent request I was told by staff that if they ever did have a name it has since been lost. After reading this thread I thought it would be great if we could open up a few role types with one clan! Let's call them GYPSY SAND ELF for the purposes of this post.

The GYPSY SAND ELF tribe consists of two main families much like the Jaxa Pah and A'kai Sjir - one of these families are desert elf who like to roam widely about the Known as entertainers and thieves (like X-D's proposed Gypsy Elves) but know they have a place to call home in Red Storm if trouble is looking for them. The other family are city elf who stick closer to home in Red Storm (and sometimes Allanak since it is within running distance for a city elf) with most of the npc militia elf of Red Storm coming from this family. Both families are entertainers and thieves with a strong familiarity with spice, many of the youngsters starting out their lives sifting for spice (or perhaps more accurately entertaining the spice sifters while swindling from what they've sifted). By forming the one tribe the wandering DE family can distribute the tribes spice and other trade goods far and wide then return with gossip, information and trade goods from afar while the CE family maintains relationships within Red Storm.

Bam! Third DE clan not located in the tablelands (but with no reason not to visit if they want) + CE clan for Red Storm (and an explanation of the elves in the village militia) + Southern elf tribe that doesn't live in the dirty 'rinth!

Just need to find an Admin who is interested in overseeing such a new clan and a better name and some proper documentation!