Progression of desert-elven role availabilty

[Harmless]

Elves are going to take over red storm! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[spicemustflow]

Bushranger, my man!

[X-D]

I think that is a nifty idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

Going to have to give a hearty fuck-yeah to that idea. I love the idea of red storm. I love the idea of an elf tribe in Red Storm. I'd probably store my current pc for it.

[Lizzie]

Wow Bushranger that is definitely a change I'd love to BE.

I'd even offer to write up docs, backgrounds for any of the NPCs that don't already have them, descriptions for any of the rooms that the tribe would call their headquarters. Maybe they even have a 3-room area in the alleys and a respectful, but cautious agreement with [redacted] that each stays out of the others' part of the alleys. Oh and those three rooms could be: an entry yard with sparring circle, one supply/crafting hut, and one communal living hut with an alcove for whatever elders/chief/staff-animated NPC is necessary.

That's just IF there were to be a coded "camp" for the tribe. Not necessary, but if the staff said to go for it, I'd volunteer to write it.

[Zerero]

+1 to Bushranger's post.

[Malken]

I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves. (Which is probably one of the main reason why d-elves PCs were being forced to pick a tribe in the end)

[Is Friday]

I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves.

Yup.

edit:

A clan of desert elves that were "officially" allowed to hang out in a city would get shut down so fast, most nerds wouldn't even have a chance to feel butthurt. The delf PCs would run around on power trips thinking they're special and actually matter in the scheme of things, when really the clan would have very little power within the game world. They'd get crushed pretty quickly.

[MeTekillot]

I think said clan could have d-elf and c-elf roles that they were expected to fulfill, depending on which class they picked.

[Mood]

I think the best way to fix elven roleplay is to remove the weird distinction between city elves and desert elves, and return a bit more to the source material's vision of them. That's not going to happen, though.

[MeTekillot]

Making all races besides human 1 karma that aren't already on the karma chart??

EDIT: I'd turn in my karma for this. Breeds could stay 0 karma. Fuxk breeds.

[hyzhenhok]

I have a feeling that nobody would play the city elf version of that tribe and everyone would go for the d-elf version of it, only because of coded advantages and the freedom that one offers over the other.

Then you'd end up with a bunch of d-elves played as city elves. (Which is probably one of the main reason why d-elves PCs were being forced to pick a tribe in the end)

Eh, probably not. It's not like the clan's staff would just let an infinite number of delfs through. Jaxa Pah & Akai Sjir should give staff an idea of whether or not the celf family side of things would be sustainable. And just like the other celf clans, you'd have a limited number of family slots and then require the clan to recruit independent elves and breeds once they're used up. The only difference is a couple of those family slots are for desert elves.

I like the idea mainly because it would put a clan in Red Storm, though.

[boog]

I think I'm fine with the desert elves available now. You can play unconventional characters within the realms of the documents, easily. If you don't think your character idea is possible, you could just ask the staff beforehand. And, well, there are IC relations between all sort of elven clans - though I won't go into specifics.

I think as they are now, the clans are fantastic. Sometimes you just have to be a bit imaginative, especially if you want to play something different.

[Maso]

I like that Southern c-elves are all dirty 'rinthers. They've filled a niche. Although, it does leave you wondering about the all the elves in RS and any other elves wandering around Southside Allanak...like non-rinth elves do exist...so that's a lot of 'tribe-of-one' elves. More than seems reasonable.

I would love to see another d-elf clan. One further removed from the two we currently have, but I wouldn't mind if it was reopening and old clan or coming up with a new, further away one. From an outside perspective there is very little distinction between them. From an inside perspective (when playing), for me personally...there is only one I would want to play in...which means there is only one option for d-elf for me...and options would be nice. I'm just not all that interested in SR...though I could be convinced to try it.

[Harmless]

I don't agree that any proposed celf/delf clan in red storm would end up being only delfs. I think you'd see a portion of celves. It might be one celf for every 2-3 delfs, but if you get 10 people in there that's a decent spread.

I think this because there are certain roles within this clan where a celf would be very useful, feel appreciated, and have a good time, not feeling too inferior to their delf tribemates.

This is just a wordy +1 to Bushranger's post.

[Lizzie]

Some expansion on Bushranger's concept, to provide more rounded "usefulness" to the c-elf possibilities:

The tribe's elders/chief/council/tribunal/whatever watches the kids as they grow into their own personalities and physiology. Those who show more of an inclination to run, who seem hardier when they're out in the open than when they're in/near the village, are assigned to learning how to better do exactly that - travelling far and wide. And those who seem to thrive when they're closer to the walls, would be trained for a life nearer the walls, which would include being sent as runners between Storm and Allanak.

So the desert-elf side would be primarily the wanderers and travellers, running beyond Allanak, to other areas of the world, and would -not- serve their tribe as spice sifters or crafters. The ones who stay near the village would be the crafters, the spice sifters, and grebbers of the general area, watching for trouble to the village, informing their elders (of which maybe some are actual soldiers of the Sand Lord's army or have some kind of representation among them). Any traders who aren't suited for distances, would be relegated to trading between the village and Allanak, and would not go beyond or step on the toes of the ones who -are- suited for distance. And vice-versa: the ones who -are- suited for distance, would not run trade between Allanak and Red Storm, because their legs serve the tribe better at longer distances.

Crafters who can move long distances would not craft for the tribe. They might craft components (if applicable), or for their own personal use, or - for example - to break logs/stones/etc. down into smaller pieces for easier transport.

The tribe itself is not an official "sandlord sanctioned" tribe - so they'd still be affected by the crim-code. Except in their own limited rooms, IF the staff chooses to assign any to them.

[Harmless]

I get nervous when I see ideas like this being discussed very openly on the GDB... so many possibilities. I hope they come to fruition. However, I fear of what might happen if too many details are put on the GDB.

What I'm trying to say is, though Lizzie's and Bushranger's suggestions are really good, that there are a lot of ways the basic goal of expanding the delf/celf PC representation without negative impacts on existing tribes can be achieved. Certainly, any one thoughtful post here could become reality.

I would rather that whatever ends up being made wasn't something I read word for word on the GDB a year before it became real. I fully support these efforts and ideas; I stayed out of this thread initially because I had little hope for success in the beginnings of the discussion. Now though, I see something great being played out here, but having been through enough interactions with staff to know that this is a two-way street, I am afraid of how detailed, hopeful posts here will be perceived.
..Just my 2 sids.

[BleakOne]

A clan of desert elves that were "officially" allowed to hang out in a city would get shut down so fast, most nerds wouldn't even have a chance to feel butthurt. The delf PCs would run around on power trips thinking they're special and actually matter in the scheme of things, when really the clan would have very little power within the game world. They'd get crushed pretty quickly.

This. They'd probably just turn into a bunch of lolraiders with a home base protected by crimcode where they can return at the first sign of trouble.

No thanks.

[Harmless]

IsFriday's and BleakOnes' posts are perfect demonstrations of the effects I was afraid of and discussed above.

Those hopeful posters from before, please do not angrily reply to these poorly-thought out retorts. There's no need to jeopardize this any further. Just take it off the GDB, go to requests, and let it work itself IC. If it was meant to be, it'll happen. If it was meant to degenerate into shitty twinkdom, fine.

This potential tribe had better have good systems for regulating the behavior of its members. That's all I'll say in addition to what's been said... and do my best not to make this discussion any more.. hostile.

edit: edited for you bleakone. Sorry. Didn't mean it in a permanent sense. I really didn't appreciate the post, though.

[BleakOne]

I admit I could have phrased my response more diplomatically, but it is my opinion nonetheless.

edit: No worries.

[MeTekillot]

You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

[Fujikoma]

Can't talk about my current character so fuck all this craziness.

[X-D]

I have to reply, as IsFriday at least should know better. I know less about Bleakone, so here is the reply.

First, delves are karma, abusing that trust is subject to many actions staff side, from forced storage, to karma loss, bad account notes, and more.

But if the clan has good documentation, one finds that the players police themselves and each other.

When I was playing RF, it was actually rare for staff to have to step in to straighten out behavier, usually the players did that. Of course RF documentation made that a bit easier, unlike most delf tribes, killing a tribemate as a RF was more...allowed...but in all tribes if the actions of one is considered bad for the tribe as a whole...mantis head.

And keep in mind, this was a heavy raiding tribe...but even with that in the docs, most money was actually made in trading, raiding made less then half that. Did we kill, yes, but almost always as a last resort...and often we would avoid it even then. I can think of many times when raiding, somebody does not want to give up the goods, it is explained to them that we will kill them...they get brave, attack...we have mercy on, KO foolish person, take more then we would have otherwise, but still leave them live.

Now, taking the suggestion for a red storm delf/celf combo tribe (which I think has potential and don't think it has been done before) Having well worded docs is the key.
It would not be hard to have it in the docs that for that tribe, bringing any kind of heat back to the tribe/redstorm is considered VERY bad. My bet is, that would solve any possible problems such as you seem to fear.

I also bet if you stuck even just Lizzie and Bushranger on the docs task, you would have a tight set of bomb docs in short order. I myself would want to play at least one celf and 1 delf of said tribe.

[BleakOne]

I'd have more support if the clan had at least a 'no raid zone' around Red Storm. I doubt the Sand Lord would give them any mercy if they messed with the all-important trade by being live-in raiders.

It still seems vaguely non-elfy to me, though. Desert Elves living inside a full-blown human settlement doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Particularly they make a living raiding outside their own home town.

It might make a bit more sense as a purely C-elf clan of elves with connections to 'nak and the 'rinth. Maybe acting as spice smugglers, traders, and unusually well-traveled c-elves.

Then again, what do I know, I should know better. 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

There's appeal in crafters, for some god-awful reason. :p  I bet you'd get a merchant or two easily. Especially if you allow them to wander to Allanak often.

As far as "lolraiding" and tailing it back to Red Storm .... you've just described half the indy human/mul/dwarf/whatever raiders I've seen in the past how many years? X-D makes an excellent point in referring to Red Fang. For a tribe that rained supreme for quite a while, they really weren't that bad.

What I think would be a neat, new raider culture, that might be somewhat in-line with shady gypsy performer types, is some sort of game played against the victim. For instance, you offer forth a riddle or a challenge, and if they lose you are a smart and glorious elf, and entitled to a small concession from them. If they win, perhaps you have to offer them something as a prize, and you are shamed as being lack-wit. So, you could ask someone a riddle and give them three guesses. Or if they look like a good hunter, challenge them to an archery contest. Or if they're foraging salt, have a contest to see who can find a blue crystal first. Sort of beat them at their own game, or leave them alone.