Progression of desert-elven role availabilty

[BleakOne]

As far as "lolraiding" and tailing it back to Red Storm .... you've just described half the indy human/mul/dwarf/whatever raiders I've seen in the past how many years?

Indeed. I still wouldn't like to see a clan dedicated to it appear, though.

Your idea of armed, thieving tricksters sounds much more appealing. Only being violent if the quarry was to actively flee, be insulting or fight back (perhaps considering that as the victim 'defining the contest' in such a way by combat or hunting), and usually just extorting coins out of people via less-than-honest contests, riddles ect. That sounds much more d-elfy than a city-based raiding heavy clan.

[musashi]

My only reservation about raiding clans/people in general is their tendency to start working with the first rogue anything they come across till they grow into a monstrous hoarde of abominations that has way much coded power for their place in the larger virtual world. Staff always steps in to stop it, but until they do ... it's really. Really. Annoying.

[X-D]

Well, the idea for red storm is just that, an idea.

I was reflecting on it a bit...and though I do like the idea of a combined tribe...I don't really like the idea of delves living in a human settlement...as some have said, seems rather undelfy to me.

I really lean far more towards a small tribe of gypsy travelers, tricksters, thieves, con artists, entertainers even. But with no lands they think they own/control.

If I was to add to a real wish list on the matter, I would give them a coded camp...BUT, I would make it a wagon object that only clan staff can move. That way, instead of a preset pattern like the human nomads (delves would laugh at them calling themselves nomads BTW) The delf gypsy camp could be moved pretty much on a whim...maybe one room, maybe fifty.

look east
near: A jumbled huddle of ragged yet colorful small tents.

Have it be one room that you can pitch coded tents in. (not including the staff only "pilot" room)

Anyway, starting to ramble.

But hell, I'd play them if there was no coded camp, Hump your tents IC works too.

I need to stop reading this thread...I am starting to think up docs.

[Lizzie]

See Jack, my mind is wrapping around this hypothetical formation of a combo d-c-elf clan as being more 3-dimensional than just a raider clan. They wouldn't be a raider clan, any more than your average southern Templar is a raider (you know - it's not like they will bear down on their victim and demand a bribe in exchange for their life or anything... )

They would be a Red Storm clan. Thieves, shady elves, possible underhanded dealings with spice, maybe even a minor inconvenience in Kurac's side OR possibly a minor usefulness to them - depending on which way whira blows that week...all the things that Red Storm itself is known for - concentrated in one race with two aspects - elves who can travel far, and elves who cannot. Raiding might be one of the things some of them do, but the clan wouldn't be a raider clan. I think that's where everyone's getting tripped up.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

To clarify, I'm not hot on the idea of a mixed c/d-elf tribe, or a pure 'raider clan' either. I was just "going with the flow", and offering up a cool idea. (Dibs on a dwarf PC with that focus!)

What I'm feeling personally is more inline with X-Ds original idea on this. Small population, light-weight influence, gypsy D-elves.

However, my personal idea of a cool clan: they would be the cheapest and dirtiest of the cheap and dirty. Playing it out like 2 sid con-men, smugglers, gamblers and crooks with ties from the East side of the rinth, to the Warrens of Tuluk. I see such elves as ultimately cowardly, preferring subtlety to boldness. However I don't think if 3 of these points came across a lone hunter far from the gates of any lawful settlement, they would pass up such an opportunity. In the spirit of being sly gambler types, and NOT primarily raiders, I thought it would be neat if there was an established raiding protocol in the form of a sporting challenge. Additionally, they might try to cut in on the business of other clans/houses, but on a level small enough to go undetected as to not draw the ire of a more powerful force. For instance, one elf might get the idea to sell spice in Tuluk at cheaper-than-Kurac prices, but would do so in passing to a small handful of PCs. If Kurac became aware, they would cease. At the same time, another pair of elves might team up -- one performs while the other slinks around the audience picking pockets. Whatever gets the job done. Jacks of all trades that seem available.

Raiding Idea Scenario:
A D-elf from the (?) tribe comes across a lone hunter of house (?) who has a 2,000 sid bow. Figuring one with such a bow must be a seasoned hunter like himself, (and not a 10 day played ranger who sells half his hunting take rather than turning it in, thus netting him 20,000 sid worth of gear by the end of his recruit period... ya know the type.) the elf offers up a gamble - "My 1000 sid bow plus 1000 coins, against your 2000 sid bow. Victor is the first one who can peg that turaal over there." If the hunter refuses, he may offer another challenge, "My legs versus your beetle - first one to that rock pile on the horizon." And this can go on, all the way down to a riddle, a dice game, or flip of the coin. If the hunter refuses, then he is labelled a coward, and may be open to a (preferably non-fatal) attack.

I think this is a cool idea because:
- It's kinda neat, admit it.
- It offers a slight patch to the empty 'raider' niche, without re-inventing the Red Fangs.
- It's a gamble/challenge whose terms should be fair enough to lure the 'victim' in. (at least at face value: loaded dice - yay, master archer elf vs newb with a slingshot - nay.)
- It's sly and plays to elven pride nicely.

[Delirium]

I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

[Bogre]

There are 2 city elf tribes already struggling for players.

[Lizzie]

There are 2 city elf tribes already struggling for players.

If they're struggling for players, a discussion as to *why* might be in order either in another thread, or one-on-one with the staff. But -this- thread is about the fact that some of us really miss having more than two options for -desert- elves. Some of us really miss RPing -with- more than 2 desert elf tribes, whether we play them or simply interact with them. And some of us are offering suggestions on how to possibly address that. One of those suggestions was to have a tribe from Red Storm that included both types of elves. But no - no one is requesting or suggesting another city elf tribe.

[Nile]

Remember a few years ago when Red Fang was awesome?

Yeah, reopen Red Fang.

[Delirium]

Red Fangs were awesome because of a certain player... but maybe a little too awesome, because other players decided to destroy it.

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT GUYS.

[Norcal]

I'd have more support if the clan had at least a 'no raid zone' around Red Storm. I doubt the Sand Lord would give them any mercy if they messed with the all-important trade by being live-in raiders.

It still seems vaguely non-elfy to me, though. Desert Elves living inside a full-blown human settlement doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Particularly they make a living raiding outside their own home town.

It might make a bit more sense as a purely C-elf clan of elves with connections to 'nak and the 'rinth. Maybe acting as spice smugglers, traders, and unusually well-traveled c-elves.

Then again, what do I know, I should know better.  

I think you are right. Currently city elves do not like going outside the walls (although some do), and many have a total aversion to it. D elves are exactly the opposite. Some have less trouble being in town than others, but sooner or later they want out. Some can't even stand the thought of towns. Mixing the two in one tribe seems complicated culturally.
That does not mean that a tribe of elves in RS is a bad idea.  I just think they should be city elves, who perhaps have much less of an aversion to working outside of the walls, but would never want to stay outside of them permanently. They would have some disadvantages of course, not being able to ride and getting tired much faster than a d elf.  
If some players wanted to, they could already try this out as I think a city elf does not have to be in a specific tribe. Not sure on this however. The tribe could be virtual at first RP'd by the players. If it took off, maybe documents and such would follow?

And..to bring it back to d elves, I stand behind my earlier comment that a solution would be to allow the creation of indie d elves. I know that tribe is very important to elves. But tribe can be rp'd. Eventually if something solid coalesced around a group of players, perhaps it could morph into an offical tribe.

[Twilight]

I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

That other tribe would be a better place for a DE/CE mixed clan that Red Storm, IMHO.  I think one potential for such a tribe would be for it to be aligned to a city state, via treaty or whatnot.  So instead of a DE tribe raiding in "their" territory, you get a DE tribe integrated into the North/South political landscape raiding the other side's territory.

[Barsook]

I like the general idea but I don't think a d-elf and c-elf mix in one tribe is really feasible. What, do they never intermix?

I'd get behind a c-elf Red Storm tribe but that could get extremely isolated. I like the idea of opening up a d-elf tribe that's currently got a coded camp of NPCs in the south...

That other tribe would be a better place for a DE/CE mixed clan that Red Storm, IMHO.  I think one potential for such a tribe would be for it to be aligned to a city state, via treaty or whatnot.  So instead of a DE tribe raiding in "their" territory, you get a DE tribe integrated into the North/South political landscape raiding the other side's territory.

+1

[Nile]

Red Fangs were awesome because of a certain player... but maybe a little too awesome, because other players decided to destroy it.

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT GUYS.

Yeah, some of the PC's I saw come and go were insane. I was lucky enough to survive for over 2 RL years during that RF era, although I remained almost completely unknown to 99% of Arm's PC's outside of RF during that time. Greatest arm experience of my life.

I miss RF. Maybe I will start playing again soon.

[Inks]

My first ever character was robbed by a red fang inside Luirs. Really introduced me to the game properly. Their breath stinks, by the way. Regardless, I miss them.

[number13]

Two words:

Sewer Elves

D-elves by stat so they can roam their domain more effectively. The don't build structures -- why would they need to? Give them some reasons to trade in the certain shadowed corners and with other d-elf tribes, so that another area sees more interaction.

When they raid, it's highly ritualized, and rarely ends with the death or mugging of their victims. It's more about showing bravery and inspiring fear. They'd only crawl out of their holes at night, so the open desert during the day would be pretty safe from their raiding habits.

And for people who enjoy a couple certain magicker guilds, they'd be an ideal home.

[musashi]

I'm not big on this "lets take the desert elf race and put it in a city" idea. In any context. But city elf sewer elves would be cool.

[Calavera]

I moved a few posts in this thread because they hinted a little too strongly at what goes on in and around the sewers and how to get to certain places.

Please remember that not everybody knows about this stuff, guys! It's easy enough to keep it vague.

[Desertman]

Two words:

Sewer Elves

D-elves by stat so they can roam their domain more effectively. The don't build structures -- why would they need to? Give them some reasons to trade in the certain shadowed corners and with other d-elf tribes, so that another area sees more interaction.

When they raid, it's highly ritualized, and rarely ends with the death or mugging of their victims. It's more about showing bravery and inspiring fear. They'd only crawl out of their holes at night, so the open desert during the day would be pretty safe from their raiding habits.

And for people who enjoy a couple certain magicker guilds, they'd be an ideal home.

We don't always have drow, but when we do, they smell like shit.

[gfair]

You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

If there were enough monitors for abuse of a role, I'm sure we wouldn't have Blackwing closed.  Plus Karma 1 is no guarantee that the same desire to twink or powergame or become a full time raider wouldn't pop up in the less experienced players.

The blended clan in Red Storm sounds alright, but not great.

- How do you account for two different adaptations in the same breeding population? Intermarriage would weaken both adaptations, and knowledge of how to breed to retain these characteristics would likely lead to a high risk of inbreeding.  Better to make them two sister clans.
- The South is full of people right now, a new PC clan in the South will only tip the scales more.


Part of the d-elf complaints right now revolve around the isolation from the larger PC population; it's a challenge to play in a tribe with 3 PCs where the 3rd is hardly ever on and the 2nd has different playtimes.  And the thought that came to mind was: what if the D-Elf tribal base had more exposure to the major north-south conduit?  Even the main north-south routes don't run through the territory of the two existing tribes, the routes are considered beyond their territory, but if that was changed it adds a lot more spice to the area for everybody involved.  A bit of new desertification, and / or a relocate of camps might make this happen. At least it creates the risk / possibility of more interaction

[Patuk]

You guys act like staff wouldn't smack the shit out of people who abuse a karma role.

- The South is full of people right now, a new PC clan in the South will only tip the scales more.

Haha

No

[Twilight]

- How do you account for two different adaptations in the same breeding population? Intermarriage would weaken both adaptations, and knowledge of how to breed to retain these characteristics would likely lead to a high risk of inbreeding.  Better to make them two sister clans.

Intermarriage?  There is one elf race.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Chalk it up to lifestyle differences in the adolescent background of the characters.

[Lizzie]

How to explain the differences? I dunno. How do you explain that your daughter is athletically inclined and your son isn't? How do you explain that your oldest is great at math but can't conjugate a verb, and your youngest can speak five languages fluently but can't balance a checkbook?

Some people are just better at outdoor athletics than others. Even within the same family. That's why - within individual tribes - there are characters who provide for their families by hunting, and others who provide by crafting things, and others who provide by using a bow, and others who provide by charming city people into trading with them.

It's a pretty simple thing really, no need to get convoluted. Some people are just better with some things than other things. So you put your family members where they'll serve the family most efficiently. Athletes get to run. Handy people get to craft. Mouthy people get to trade. Sure, they can each do other things...but there's no point in assigning someone who -isn't- good at running, to be the designated runner - when someone who -is- good at it, is available. And there's no point in assigning someone who's clumsy and has no talent for crafting, as the crafter, when you have someone who has a knack for it sitting right there.

[Bogre]

I still think we're ignoring the Haruch Kemad, which is essentially what you guys are looking for.

I feel any 'new' city elf clan would get maybe a beginning boost because it's new and interesting, but suffer the same problems the other elf clans have.

[gfair]

Some people are just better at outdoor athletics than others. Even within the same family. That's why - within individual tribes - there are characters who provide for their families by hunting, and others who provide by crafting things, and others who provide by using a bow, and others who provide by charming city people into trading with them.

I know what you are saying, but aptitude alone is simply insufficient. The survival conditions faced by the two subsets of Elven culture are so markedly different that they have produced differing adaptations.

Twilight-   "There is only one Elf race" does not invalidate or rule out the possibility of the two sub sets having specific, genetic adaptations.  Humanity is all one race, and yet we do indeed have distinct adaptations, including at the genetic level. The fact remains - we are all still one, just not one-hundred-percent one.